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Auto engine conversion

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rvbuilder(at)sausen.net
Guest

Posted: Fri Apr 28, 2006 5:11 am Post subject: Auto engine conversion

  I spent a considerable amount of time looking  into auto conversions with Eggs being the most promising.  I really did not  want to put an old Lycosaur into my -10.  However I was unable to find any  solid data to support some of the claims being made and he seems to be  constantly 6 months or longer behind his scheduled delivery dates.  Even  some of his staunchest supporters privately told me they wouldn't use his new  engine in something like a -10 until it is proven over the next two years.   The new redrive, high operating RPM's, and past history of Egg claiming HP  numbers that were shown to be wrong really put me off eventually.  Also,  when I pushed the issue around constantly changing HP numbers I was banned from  his group.  Nice!  It basically came down to a trust issue with me, I  think Egg is probably genuine in his resolve that the engine can do what it says  but I want real numbers on paper and Egg just would not do it.  With myself  and 3 other souls on board I could not in good conscious select an unproven  engine with NO real world data.  By going with Barrett I will pay more in  fuel but I have 100% confidence in his reputation and his ability to deliver  what he says.  Also having it run on the dyno helps  .

  

   Now I know there are several -10 builders going  with the Subie and I honestly wish them all the best and really hope the engine  meets it's computed numbers (he does not dyno any engines) as this would be an  excellent alternative to the engines we usually use.  I still think that it  would be an excellent engine for any of the 2 seat RV's.  Not flaming Egg,  just stating my opinions along with some facts.

  

  

Michael Sausen 

RV-10 #352 Working on  Fuselage 

Do Not Archive 

Recent RV-10 Build Activity

  



   From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com  [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Doerr, Ray R  [NTK]

Sent: Friday, April 28, 2006 7:09 AM

To:  rv10-list(at)matronics.com

Subject: RE: Autogas for  540

 

  

No  I would not buy another auto conversion.  I am an engineer and I don’t like  what I’ve seen in terms of engineering for these firewall forward packages.   It is more like engineering by trial and error and unfortunately I had to  be the guy that found an error.  That being said, I do think the Subaru is  a great engine, but currently the displacement isn’t large enough for these  engines to be running at 2700 RPM with no gear reduction  drive.  Now is Subaru came out with a boxer 8 cylinder in the 5.0 liter  range with dual plugs/ignition and dual built in alternators for them, a very  small gear reduction drive that would maybe run the engine at 3,500  RPM with prop at 2700  would give a hassle free 2000+ hour TBO.  Some of the things I’ve found  that were not addresses very well were Fuel delivery, location of the pumps  (cabin, engine side of firewall, in the tank etc), air flow for oil and water  coolers. 

             Some of the other factors I’ve considered this time round is to ensure that  everyone in the aviation industry can put a price on the components that make up  my plane.  Example:  The engine even as a core as a define value, the  Garmin components in the panel, the airframe, prop etc.  This way if I  every needed to sell it/part it out for any reason, I could get a fair price for  the individual piece. 

  

  

   

Thank  You

Ray  Doerr

CDNI Principal  Engineer

Sprint  PCS

16020 West 113th  Street

Lenexa, KS 66219

Mailstop  KSLNXK0101

(913) 859-1414  (Office)

(913) 226-0106  (Pcs)

(913) 859-1234  (Fax)

Ray.R.Doerr(at)sprint.com 

 

-----Original  Message-----

From:  owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com  [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of McGANN, Ron

Sent: Thursday, April 27,  2006 8:53  PM

To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com

Subject: RE: Autogas for  540 

  

  

A question for Ray Doerr, would you buy another auto  engine conversion (eg Eggenfelner)?  

From someone who has been there, I am sure the list  would value your opinion.  

cheers, 

Ron  

--

Tdawson(at)avidyne.com
Guest

Posted: Fri Apr 28, 2006 7:39 am Post subject: Auto engine conversion

Frapper says there’s a guy in Ontario building a RV-10 with Corvette power . . .  

   

Is he on the list?  Speak up!  

   

TDT  

40025  

Do not archive  

   

         

  

From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of RV Builder (Michael Sausen)

 Sent: Friday, April 28, 2006 9:11 AM

 To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com

 Subject: Auto engine conversion  

  

   

  I spent a considerable amount of time looking into auto conversions with Eggs being the most promising.  I really did not want to put an old Lycosaur into my -10.  However I was unable to find any solid data to support some of the claims being made and he seems to be constantly 6 months or longer behind his scheduled delivery dates.  Even some of his staunchest supporters privately told me they wouldn't use his new engine in something like a -10 until it is proven over the next two years.  The new redrive, high operating RPM's, and past history of Egg claiming HP numbers that were shown to be wrong really put me off eventually.  Also, when I pushed the issue around constantly changing HP numbers I was banned from his group.  Nice!  It basically came down to a trust issue with me, I think Egg is probably genuine in his resolve that the engine can do what it says but I want real numbers on paper and Egg just would not do it.  With myself and 3 other souls on board I could not in good conscious select an unproven engine with NO real world data.  By going with Barrett I will pay more in fuel but I have 100% confidence in his reputation and his ability to deliver what he says.  Also having it run on the dyno helps .  

   

  Now I know there are several -10 builders going with the Subie and I honestly wish them all the best and really hope the engine meets it's computed numbers (he does not dyno any engines) as this would be an excellent alternative to the engines we usually use.  I still think that it would be an excellent engine for any of the 2 seat RV's.  Not flaming Egg, just stating my opinions along with some facts.    

   

  

Michael Sausen  

RV-10 #352 Working on Fuselage  

Do Not Archive  

Recent RV-10 Build Activity    

   

  

       

  

From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Doerr, Ray R [NTK]

 Sent: Friday, April 28, 2006 7:09 AM

 To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com

 Subject: RE: Autogas for 540  

No I would not buy another auto conversion.  I am an engineer and I don’t like what I’ve seen in terms of engineering for these firewall forward packages.  It is more like engineering by trial and error and unfortunately I had to be the guy that found an error.  That being said, I do think the Subaru is a great engine, but currently the displacement isn’t large enough for these engines to be running at 2700 RPM with no gear reduction drive.  Now is Subaru came out with a boxer 8 cylinder in the 5.0 liter range with dual plugs/ignition and dual built in alternators for them, a very small gear reduction drive that would maybe run the engine at 3,500 RPM with prop at 2700 would give a hassle free 2000+ hour TBO.  Some of the things I’ve found that were not addresses very well were Fuel delivery, location of the pumps (cabin, engine side of firewall, in the tank etc), air flow for oil and water coolers.  

            Some of the other factors I’ve considered this time round is to ensure that everyone in the aviation industry can put a price on the components that make up my plane.  Example:  The engine even as a core as a define value, the Garmin components in the panel, the airframe, prop etc.  This way if I every needed to sell it/part it out for any reason, I could get a fair price for the individual piece.  

   

   

     

Thank You

 Ray Doerr

 CDNI Principal Engineer

 Sprint PCS

 16020 West 113th Street

 Lenexa, KS 66219

 Mailstop KSLNXK0101

 (913) 859-1414 (Office)

 (913) 226-0106 (Pcs)

 (913) 859-1234 (Fax)

 Ray.R.Doerr(at)sprint.com   

  

--

steveadams

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 191

Posted: Fri Apr 28, 2006 10:25 am Post subject: Re: Auto engine conversion

I decided to go with an auto conversion, so I yanked the hemi out of my Dodge 1/2 ton pickup. The low end power is great and it will cruise all day without a hitch. Acceleration and climb are a bit slow, but it really sounds pretty cool. I am having some cooling problems and am redesigning the air inlets which I hope will help. It's running mogas without any problems. Overall I think it will work out OK, but it burns a lot of gas and has cost me a lot. It's probably the first Dodge pickup running with an IO-540. Ohhhhh! You mean put a car engine in an airplane and fly around with my family in it?  No thanks.

jjessen

Joined: 22 Apr 2006
Posts: 285
Location: OR

Posted: Fri Apr 28, 2006 10:58 am Post subject: Auto engine conversion

LOL.  You really had me going........!  



do not archive 



--

jesse(at)itecusa.org
Guest

Posted: Fri Apr 28, 2006 11:05 am Post subject: Auto engine conversion

Now that's good humor.



Do not archive.



Jesse Saint

I-TEC, Inc.

jesse(at)itecusa.org

www.itecusa.org

352-465-4545



--

effectus(at)rogers.com
Guest

Posted: Fri Apr 28, 2006 12:13 pm Post subject: Auto engine conversion

    I am the guy in Ontario.

  

     After a thorough weight analysis the Corvette engine in  the RV-10 proves too heavy. You will notice that the Frapper site now says the  General instead of Corvette.I am currently looking into other aluminum block  alternatives.

  

     I will inform the group when I have made my  decision.

  

 Dave Hertner

 #40164

  

  

 [quote]   ---

rvbuilder(at)sausen.net
Guest

Posted: Fri Apr 28, 2006 12:39 pm Post subject: Auto engine conversion

  I know what you mean, I've been trying to get my Dodge 3500's Cummins turbo diesel crammed under the cowl.  I mean geez, the thing is only a IO-360.  It should fit, right? It would be perfect at 305HP, 350,000 miles before overhaul, and it doesn't need a redrive.  LMAO

 

 

 Michael Sausen

 RV-10 #352 Working on Fuselage

 Do Not Archive

 

 

 --

johnwcox(at)pacificnw.com
Guest

Posted: Fri Apr 28, 2006 2:57 pm Post subject: Auto engine conversion

Tim, try your request on a smaller auto engine conversion than the GM Corvette (that was some time ago) and he may speak up on the secret to auto conversions of all flavors. It is the design, engineering and manufacturing reliability of the PSRU.  I can’t say much more without his response.  Remember the goal is to keep from adding weight up front.  The fallacy of planes falling out of the sky with 261+ horsepower is already long gone.  Safety, Reliability, Serviceability… now those are adverbs we could dig our teeth into.  

   

John - $00.02  

         

  

From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Tim Dawson-Townsend

 Sent: Friday, April 28, 2006 8:36 AM

 To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com

 Subject: RE: Auto engine conversion  

  

   

Frapper says there’s a guy in Ontario building a RV-10 with Corvette power . . .  

   

Is he on the list?  Speak up!  

   

TDT  

40025  

Do not archive  

   

         

  

From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of RV Builder (Michael Sausen)

 Sent: Friday, April 28, 2006 9:11 AM

 To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com

 Subject: Auto engine conversion  

  

   

  I spent a considerable amount of time looking into auto conversions with Eggs being the most promising.  I really did not want to put an old Lycosaur into my -10.  However I was unable to find any solid data to support some of the claims being made and he seems to be constantly 6 months or longer behind his scheduled delivery dates.  Even some of his staunchest supporters privately told me they wouldn't use his new engine in something like a -10 until it is proven over the next two years.  The new redrive, high operating RPM's, and past history of Egg claiming HP numbers that were shown to be wrong really put me off eventually.  Also, when I pushed the issue around constantly changing HP numbers I was banned from his group.  Nice!  It basically came down to a trust issue with me, I think Egg is probably genuine in his resolve that the engine can do what it says but I want real numbers on paper and Egg just would not do it.  With myself and 3 other souls on board I could not in good conscious select an unproven engine with NO real world data.  By going with Barrett I will pay more in fuel but I have 100% confidence in his reputation and his ability to deliver what he says.  Also having it run on the dyno helps .  

   

  Now I know there are several -10 builders going with the Subie and I honestly wish them all the best and really hope the engine meets it's computed numbers (he does not dyno any engines) as this would be an excellent alternative to the engines we usually use.  I still think that it would be an excellent engine for any of the 2 seat RV's.  Not flaming Egg, just stating my opinions along with some facts.    

   

  

Michael Sausen  

RV-10 #352 Working on Fuselage  

Do Not Archive  

Recent RV-10 Build Activity    

   

  

       

  

From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Doerr, Ray R [NTK]

 Sent: Friday, April 28, 2006 7:09 AM

 To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com

 Subject: RE: Autogas for 540  

No I would not buy another auto conversion.  I am an engineer and I don’t like what I’ve seen in terms of engineering for these firewall forward packages.  It is more like engineering by trial and error and unfortunately I had to be the guy that found an error.  That being said, I do think the Subaru is a great engine, but currently the displacement isn’t large enough for these engines to be running at 2700 RPM with no gear reduction drive.  Now is Subaru came out with a boxer 8 cylinder in the 5.0 liter range with dual plugs/ignition and dual built in alternators for them, a very small gear reduction drive that would maybe run the engine at 3,500 RPM with prop at 2700 would give a hassle free 2000+ hour TBO.  Some of the things I’ve found that were not addresses very well were Fuel delivery, location of the pumps (cabin, engine side of firewall, in the tank etc), air flow for oil and water coolers.  

            Some of the other factors I’ve considered this time round is to ensure that everyone in the aviation industry can put a price on the components that make up my plane.  Example:  The engine even as a core as a define value, the Garmin components in the panel, the airframe, prop etc.  This way if I every needed to sell it/part it out for any reason, I could get a fair price for the individual piece.  

   

   

     

Thank You

 Ray Doerr

 CDNI Principal Engineer

 Sprint PCS

 16020 West 113th Street

 Lenexa, KS 66219

 Mailstop KSLNXK0101

 (913) 859-1414 (Office)

 (913) 226-0106 (Pcs)

 (913) 859-1234 (Fax)

 Ray.R.Doerr(at)sprint.com   

  

--

effectus(at)rogers.com
Guest

Posted: Fri Apr 28, 2006 6:39 pm Post subject: Auto engine conversion

John,

  

     Thank you. You are a trusted friend.

  

     There can be only one way to approach the  development of a viable alternative engine for aircraft. Your company has  to act like an aircraft engine company! This means that you need to have a  product that, although based on an automotive engine has been scrutinized  with the eye of an aeronautical engineer, not a race car mechanic. The loads  imparted by an aircraft have to be accounted for. There is no way around  it.

  

     One excellent example of a cavalier attitude encountered  in this arena is in the engine management software. How many of you out there  have heard of someone who would like to use an OEM control module and has had  some backyard reprogrammer go in an turn a few things off so that it will work  for an aircraft application? What do you think that an engine management  software designer in the employ of a large auto manufacturer has on his mind  when writing code pertaining to an engine over temp? He is going to save the  engine!!! He'll command that software to reduce power or shut down. Is that what  you want when you are out over inhospitable terrain? Not likely!!

  

     I agree with John's take on gearbox's. They have to  be designed for specific applications. I dare say right down to the  specific airframe. It and the engine have to be developed in unison by qualified  people. The information about the package has to be made available.  Independently verified information on horsepower, vibration, fuel consumption  and flight test data should be made available to the buying public.

  

      I am a believer in geared PSRUs and this has to do  with history. The geared PSRU using spur gears has been the most successful  configuration throughout the years and has demonstrated reliability in numerous  high horsepower aircraft applications. 

  

     What drives innovation is the needs of the customer. How  many of you out there have heard someone else say that they wish that there was  some alternative to the current offerings? When talking about the IO-540, the  pickings are even slimmer.

  

     I am working to establish a propulsion systems company  that will respect the needs of the builders of experimental aircraft and I will  have an alternative engine in my RV-10. I will not be releasing details  prematurely but when I do, they will be independently verified. As well, my  RV-10 airframe will be professionally flight tested with this propulsion system  so as to provide the best information possible to any potential  customer who is trusting his/her life and the lives of his/her loved  ones to it. I will even go as far as testing both Hartzell and MT  propellers so that the  comparative data is available.

  

     The thing that I think stops most builders in their  tracks when contemplating an alternative engine is not the engine. It invariably  is the lack of a complete firewall forward solution. Look at all of the failures  to provide this out there. Innodyne, Crossflow and DeltaHawk are the first three  to come to mind. If I am able to offer a package it will be just that. A total  package. Engine, PSRU(mated), cowl(fitted to a production jig and ready to  paint), cooling system(designed and tested for the specific airframe)and a dual  engine management system that is designed and programmed specifically for the  aircraft environment.

  

     All this will take time. I wouldn't respect any company  that rushes through this and who doesn't have people with the proper credentials  doing the designing. 

  

     Thanks for the opportunity John.

  

 Dave Hertner

 #40164

  

     

  

  

 [quote]   ---

Kellym

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1705
Location: Sun Lakes AZ

Posted: Fri Apr 28, 2006 6:50 pm Post subject: Auto engine conversion

Anyone look at Superior's new IO400 at 210hp? 8.5 compression so 91 octane should work with those friction stir welded tanks. 

 

 RV Builder (Michael Sausen) wrote:  	  Quote: 	
		           RE: Re: Auto engine conversion   

  I know what you mean, I've been trying to get my Dodge 3500's Cummins turbo diesel crammed under the cowl.  I mean geez, the thing is only a IO-360.  It should fit, right? It would be perfect at 305HP, 350,000 miles before overhaul, and it doesn't need a redrive.  LMAO

   

   

 Michael Sausen

 RV-10 #352 Working on Fuselage

 Do Not Archive

_________________
Kelly McMullen
A&P/IA, EAA Tech Counselor # 5286
KCHD

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