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High speed taxi tests: good or bad idea?
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graeme(at)coletoolcentre.
Guest

Posted: Tue Sep 28, 2010 6:46 pm Post subject: High speed taxi tests: good or bad idea?

Yes do hi speed taxi tests

and if you have the room do some hops of increasing height and duration. if 

you can get out of ground effect you will be testing the handeling

both yours and the aircrafts. while  taking off and landing. make sure it 

isn't dropping a wing or over sensitive or too heavy on the controls.

if any of these are felt fix before flight propper. You don't want any nasty 

surprises.

thanks

graemecns



---

graeme(at)coletoolcentre.
Guest

Posted: Tue Sep 28, 2010 6:54 pm Post subject: High speed taxi tests: good or bad idea?

Re high speed it won't fly at 25 MPH

aim for 45 Knots rotate establish flight don't climb under 45 knots

work on 55knots min over the fence landing. speed washes off quickly!

while testing speed is you friend

you can play with min speeds later keep you and your aircraft straight.

While testing at height power off stall establish your stall speed (mushing 

at 700 ft/min is a stall)



Graemecns

---

klondike(at)megalink.net
Guest

Posted: Tue Sep 28, 2010 7:25 pm Post subject: High speed taxi tests: good or bad idea?

are you doing your taxi test on the 2 main wheels or all 3 (tricycle gear) 

??

Fritz----  do not archibe

---

John Bolding

Joined: 23 May 2006
Posts: 281

Posted: Tue Sep 28, 2010 7:34 pm Post subject: High speed taxi tests: good or bad idea?

Here's my feeling on high speed taxi and a lot of crow hops.

 I've made the first flight on 6-7 planes and plan to continue my M.O.

A good landing is the result of a good approach. Crow hops IMHO are about 

the furthest from a stable approach as you can get.

My method after medium (relative to the airplane) taxi to determine braking 

/ steering is to make a full power takeoff, once clear of the ground I lower 

the nose and test all three axis quickly before continuing climb, climb to 

altitude over the airport and conduct slow flight and a stall so you know 

what to expect on landing.  The 701 is different from any other first flight 

I've done, I was aware of the steep power off attitude so was prepared to 

REALLY lower the nose if the engine gagged,  with a little power it was 

little different from my Pacer at idle.

Lots of folks use the fast taxi/ crow hop scenario, I think it's an accident 

waiting to happen.



John



---

NYTerminat(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Wed Sep 29, 2010 3:02 am Post subject: High speed taxi tests: good or bad idea?

You can go down the runway and lift your nose off the ground without taking  off, but if all your wheels come off the ground JUST FLY and don't try to put it  back on the runway.

  

 Bob Spudis

  

  In a message dated 9/28/2010 10:22:38 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,  txpilot(at)consolidated.net writes:

  	  Quote: 	
		  -->    Zenith701801-List message posted by: "txpilot"    <txpilot(at)consolidated.net>



I've just completed my 'low-speed'    taxi tests and anticipate fixing my squawks quickly.  Now - the next    question:  should I do high-speed taxi tests as recommended from the FAA,    or just go right to the first flight?  Of course, talking about this    airplane, 'high speed' may mean 20-25 mph!



I would like to hear about    any experiences of high-speed taxi tests from any other    members.



Thanks,



Dan Ginty





Read this topic    online    here:



http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=314051#314051===============================================

_-=   = Use   utilities  Day  ================================================               - MATRONICS WEB FORUMS  ================================================             - List Contribution Web Site  sp;                             ===================================================



	


  [quote][b]

klondike(at)megalink.net
Guest

Posted: Wed Sep 29, 2010 4:41 am Post subject: High speed taxi tests: good or bad idea?

I agree 100%---

Fritz   do not archive

---

bobkat

Joined: 07 Sep 2008
Posts: 143
Location: Bismarck, ND

Posted: Wed Sep 29, 2010 5:59 am Post subject: High speed taxi tests: good or bad idea?

The bottom line is that its not advisable to do much in the way of crow hops 

and high speed taxis.    I've heard on many websites that there are a lot of 

airplanes wrecked doing the high speed taxi/crow hop thing.

Yes, SPEED is your friend!  Forget about the stall speed 28mph nonsense! 

(Sure, but with the nose pointing upwards under power like an ICBM!)   Fly 

it like a 150 with lots of added drag till you are used to it!    John has 

some great advice here.  There's an excellent discourse on first flight by 

the fellow from Australia on his website.  The VG fellow.  Can't recall it 

right now, but someone else might.  Great advice there, too.   As John B 

said - flies like a pacer IF you leave a little power on!    Without a bit 

of power until you get used to it, it has the glide path of a falling brick!

Keep a little power on right down to the ground till you get used to landing 

it.  Don't get too slow and flare tool high like I did  on the first flight 

unless you enjoy feeling the 'clunk' of a hard landing and risk of gear 

damage!     I wish I'd have known about this web site and the great advice 

here before my first flight!

After 100+ hours in my plane I still prefer to carry a bit of power right to 

the ground!    There's lots of drag and it'll develop a really high rate of 

descent if you let it.  Flare too high and too slow and it'll bite you! 

It's an easy and absolutely fun plane to fly but there IS a bit of an 

important learning curve on landing!  Keep a bit of power on and be ready to 

add a bit more.  Power and adequate landing speed is your friend!   A good 

landing is the product of a good approach.



--------------------------------------------------

From: "fritz" <klondike(at)megalink.net>

Sent: Wednesday, September 29, 2010 7:33 AM

To: <zenith701801-list(at)matronics.com>

Subject: Re: High speed taxi tests: good or bad idea?



[quote] 



 I agree 100%---

 Fritz   do not archive

 ---

bobkat

Joined: 07 Sep 2008
Posts: 143
Location: Bismarck, ND

Posted: Wed Sep 29, 2010 7:39 am Post subject: High speed taxi tests: good or bad idea?

This is the website. JG in Australia.   Good advice on this website about 

flying, landing, testing, etc.  In a separate e-mail he told me to carry 

around 3000 RPM right to the ground with the Rotax 912 and stock airplane. 

Still amazes me how fast it comes down and what nice landings it makes even 

at 3000 RPM.    Plenty of time to land much slower once you get the feel of 

it.

The fellow from California at the 701 STOL Seminar at Oshkosh in 09 said it 

was around 100 hours before he really got comfortable with the plane, 

especially landing it very slow and STOL!

Even if you come in way too fast, just hold it off with barely enough nose 

high to keep from climbing/ballooning  and maintain directional control with 

rudder   and it'll land itself and gently roll to a stop.    Choose no wind 

or light wind straight down the runway conditions for first flight to 

eliminate that variable!    Once I flew it to the runway at 50 - 60 mph just 

to see how it would handle, and the landing was still a no brainer, a 

greaser in fact!    FAR BETTER too fast than too slow.

I was told by a factory pilot at Oshkosh to fly the approach very  slow like 

my VG'd  Kitfox I had at the time, and that is true once you are comfortable 

with the plane, but for the first flight if you've never flown one before, I 

think that's bad advice.   Come in faster with much more control till you 

get used to it.   Like the California pilot said, once you get the hang of 

it it's an extremely safe, almost unstallable  idiot proof airplane!   Just 

a few quirks to iron out and before you push the envelope.

Sorry I got off the topic of high speed taxi and crow hops....But if you do 

those, be prepared and have a game plan in your mind for landing it.



http://stolspeed.com/



--------------------------------------------------

From: "BobKat" <bobkat(at)btinet.net>

Sent: Wednesday, September 29, 2010 8:55 AM

To: <zenith701801-list(at)matronics.com>

Subject: Re: High speed taxi tests: good or bad idea?



[quote] 



 The bottom line is that its not advisable to do much in the way of crow 

 hops and high speed taxis.    I've heard on many websites that there are a 

 lot of airplanes wrecked doing the high speed taxi/crow hop thing.

 Yes, SPEED is your friend!  Forget about the stall speed 28mph nonsense! 

 (Sure, but with the nose pointing upwards under power like an ICBM!)   Fly 

 it like a 150 with lots of added drag till you are used to it!    John has 

 some great advice here.  There's an excellent discourse on first flight by 

 the fellow from Australia on his website.  The VG fellow.  Can't recall it 

 right now, but someone else might.  Great advice there, too.   As John B 

 said - flies like a pacer IF you leave a little power on!    Without a bit 

 of power until you get used to it, it has the glide path of a falling 

 brick!

 Keep a little power on right down to the ground till you get used to 

 landing it.  Don't get too slow and flare tool high like I did  on the 

 first flight unless you enjoy feeling the 'clunk' of a hard landing and 

 risk of gear damage!     I wish I'd have known about this web site and the 

 great advice here before my first flight!

 After 100+ hours in my plane I still prefer to carry a bit of power right 

 to the ground!    There's lots of drag and it'll develop a really high 

 rate of descent if you let it.  Flare too high and too slow and it'll bite 

 you! It's an easy and absolutely fun plane to fly but there IS a bit of an 

 important learning curve on landing!  Keep a bit of power on and be ready 

 to add a bit more.  Power and adequate landing speed is your friend!   A 

 good landing is the product of a good approach.



 --------------------------------------------------

 From: "fritz" <klondike(at)megalink.net>

 Sent: Wednesday, September 29, 2010 7:33 AM

 To: <zenith701801-list(at)matronics.com>

 Subject: Re: High speed taxi tests: good or bad idea?



> 

>

> I agree 100%---

> Fritz   do not archive

> ---

dougsnash

Joined: 14 Apr 2008
Posts: 281

Posted: Wed Sep 29, 2010 8:12 am Post subject: High speed taxi tests: good or bad idea?

I did some high speed taxi tests on my CH-701.  I won't say how fast I got up too becasue it is not an advisible thing to do.  I was surprised that the plane did not want to fly.  It had no tendancy to lift off at all.  I found that the flapperons were active and I had great direction control with the nose wheel steering BUT...



If things had gone wrong, the plane would have ballooned to about 100 feet and left me sitting there stunned.  The 701 will not normally fly unless the nose gear comes up first.  However, if a gust of wind had caught me the wrong way, my high speed run could have been disasterous.



I was fortunate enough to get a 701 checkout from Roger in the factory plane.  Wow, what an awesome little aircraft.  He said, and I agree, that I should be able to handle my plane with no problems.  That would not have been the case without the checkride. The few tricks he showed me were well worth the trip to Mexico.



Now all I need is my CofA to arrive and I can go fly mine.



Please keep in mind, the 701 is not an RV.  High speed taxi tests are very dangerous when you are taxiing at about your stall speed.



Fly safe



Doug MacDonald

CH-701 from Scratch

Waiting on Canadian paperwork

NW Ontario, Canada



Do Not Archive



--- On Tue, 9/28/10, txpilot <txpilot(at)consolidated.net> wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   From: txpilot <txpilot(at)consolidated.net>

 Subject: High speed taxi tests: good or bad idea?

 To: zenith701801-list(at)matronics.com

 Received: Tuesday, September 28, 2010, 9:19 PM

 --> Zenith701801-List message

 posted by: "txpilot" <txpilot(at)consolidated.net>

 

 I've just completed my 'low-speed' taxi tests and

 anticipate fixing my squawks quickly.  Now - the next

 question:  should I do high-speed taxi tests as

 recommended from the FAA, or just go right to the first

 flight?  Of course, talking about this airplane, 'high

 speed' may mean 20-25 mph!

 

 I would like to hear about any experiences of high-speed

 taxi tests from any other members.

 

 Thanks,

 

 Dan Ginty

craig(at)craigandjean.com
Guest

Posted: Wed Sep 29, 2010 12:02 pm Post subject: High speed taxi tests: good or bad idea?

On the flaps the advice from Michael Heintz was to not even mess with them

for the first 50 hours.



-- Craig

kmccune

Joined: 22 Sep 2007
Posts: 577
Location: Wisconsin, USA

Posted: Wed Sep 29, 2010 1:52 pm Post subject: Re: High speed taxi tests: good or bad idea?

Sorry I just had to quote you and remove the do not arch...  this is good stuff, I want to be able eread it when its time!



Kevin

[quote="bobkat"]This is the website. JG in Australia.   Good advice on this website about 

flying, landing, testing, etc.  In a separate e-mail he told me to carry 

around 3000 RPM right to the ground with the Rotax 912 and stock airplane. 

Still amazes me how fast it comes down and what nice landings it makes even 

at 3000 RPM.    Plenty of time to land much slower once you get the feel of 

it.

The fellow from California at the 701 STOL Seminar at Oshkosh in 09 said it 

was around 100 hours before he really got comfortable with the plane, 

especially landing it very slow and STOL!

Even if you come in way too fast, just hold it off with barely enough nose 

high to keep from climbing/ballooning  and maintain directional control with 

rudder   and it'll land itself and gently roll to a stop.    Choose no wind 

or light wind straight down the runway conditions for first flight to 

eliminate that variable!    Once I flew it to the runway at 50 - 60 mph just 

to see how it would handle, and the landing was still a no brainer, a 

greaser in fact!    FAR BETTER too fast than too slow.

I was told by a factory pilot at Oshkosh to fly the approach very  slow like 

my VG'd  Kitfox I had at the time, and that is true once you are comfortable 

with the plane, but for the first flight if you've never flown one before, I 

think that's bad advice.   Come in faster with much more control till you 

get used to it.   Like the California pilot said, once you get the hang of 

it it's an extremely safe, almost unstallable  idiot proof airplane!   Just 

a few quirks to iron out and before you push the envelope.

Sorry I got off the topic of high speed taxi and crow hops....But if you do 

those, be prepared and have a game plan in your mind for landing it.



http://stolspeed.com/



--------------------------------------------------

From: "BobKat" <bobkat>

Sent: Wednesday, September 29, 2010 8:55 AM

To: <zenith701801>

Subject: Re: High speed taxi tests: good or bad idea?



 	  Quote: 	
		   



 The bottom line is that its not advisable to do much in the way of crow 

 hops and high speed taxis.    I've heard on many websites that there are a 

 lot of airplanes wrecked doing the high speed taxi/crow hop thing.

 Yes, SPEED is your friend!  Forget about the stall speed 28mph nonsense! 

 (Sure, but with the nose pointing upwards under power like an ICBM!)   Fly 

 it like a 150 with lots of added drag till you are used to it!    John has 

 some great advice here.  There's an excellent discourse on first flight by 

 the fellow from Australia on his website.  The VG fellow.  Can't recall it 

 right now, but someone else might.  Great advice there, too.   As John B 

 said - flies like a pacer IF you leave a little power on!    Without a bit 

 of power until you get used to it, it has the glide path of a falling 

 brick!

 Keep a little power on right down to the ground till you get used to 

 landing it.  Don't get too slow and flare tool high like I did  on the 

 first flight unless you enjoy feeling the 'clunk' of a hard landing and 

 risk of gear damage!     I wish I'd have known about this web site and the 

 great advice here before my first flight!

 After 100+ hours in my plane I still prefer to carry a bit of power right 

 to the ground!    There's lots of drag and it'll develop a really high 

 rate of descent if you let it.  Flare too high and too slow and it'll bite 

 you! It's an easy and absolutely fun plane to fly but there IS a bit of an 

 important learning curve on landing!  Keep a bit of power on and be ready 

 to add a bit more.  Power and adequate landing speed is your friend!   A 

 good landing is the product of a good approach.



 --------------------------------------------------

 From: "fritz" <klondike>

 Sent: Wednesday, September 29, 2010 7:33 AM

 To: <zenith701801>

 Subject: Re: High speed taxi tests: good or bad idea?



> 

>

> I agree 100%---

> Fritz   

> ---

_________________
â€œAlways do what you are afraid to do.â€
R.W. Emerson (1803-1882)

"Real freedom is the sustained act of being an individual." WW - 2009

"Life is a good deal...it's worth it" Feb 1969
Dorothy McCune

klondike(at)megalink.net
Guest

Posted: Thu Sep 30, 2010 7:43 am Post subject: High speed taxi tests: good or bad idea?

I agree, getting and taxi'n on the mains calls for a lot of  "control" over 

the airplane.  I did this also, but didn't refer to at as "high speed taxi", 

5000' on the mains  requires a lot coordination.       I guess we need a 

defination of "high speed taxi" for the 701/750 so we'll all be on the same 

page.

Fritz------------ do not archive

---

ronlee

Joined: 25 Dec 2006
Posts: 141

Posted: Thu Sep 30, 2010 3:17 pm Post subject: Re: High speed taxi tests: good or bad idea?

I fly from a 4200 foot runway. When I land I will keep the front wheel off the ground all the way to the turn off at the other end. I have vg's which makes it easier to do. With slats the on it is much more difficult to maintain the front wheel off the ground, it either wants to go very nose high or drop the front main to the ground. 

I did high speed taxing with the slats on and can verify that it can be very dangerous. You get up enough speed and the nose high and it will come off the ground. The problem now is to get it back on the ground with out thumping it, cuz when you come off the throttle it will come down like a rock. This is a real problem especially when the end of the runway is approaching and boy does it come up fast.

My recommendation is to take off and fly a few feet off the deck, if no bad things seem to be in play then fly away. By that I mean no heavy forces on the stick,or other trim problems evident. My trainer, an old military instructor told me to never head right for the sky but to fly a few feet above the runway and then if all feels right go up.

_________________
Ron Lee
Tucson, Arizona

raymondj(at)frontiernet.n
Guest

Posted: Sat Oct 02, 2010 4:40 pm Post subject: High speed taxi tests: good or bad idea?

It seems to me that the location of the center of gravity relative to 

the wheel axles would be a significant factor.  Perhaps the CG moves 

from in front of the axles to behind at some point while the nose is 

moving up.  If the CG moved across the fulcrum, the tail would want to 

go all the way to the ground.



Just a thought.



Raymond Julian

Kettle River, MN



On 10/02/2010 05:34 PM, ronlee wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   



 I guess I didn't make my message clear about taxing with the nose wheel up. As someone else noted the nose will come up VERY easily and at a low speed, if not careful one can even scrape the tail tie down. It seems at some point it (the tail) just wants to keep going down. My experience is coming down from such a nose high taxi is touchy to bring it down gently. My thoughts are that once the air starts going through the slats (nose high) the tail just wants to keep going down. Now here is my point, if you get airborne with the nose high and you don't want to fly, but bring it back down to the runway gently is where the problem can be. It's easy to come down much faster then you want and easy to thump it , especially if the end of the runway is approaching.

 I've taxied both ways, slats on and slats off with VGs and can definitely state that taxing with the nose wheel an EVEN distance (6 inches,  10 inches etc) off the ground is way easier done without the slats on. I can only theorize why this is so. Maybe someone has right answer.



 --------

 Ron Lee

 Tucson, Arizona





 Read this topic online here:



 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=314426#314426

n801bh(at)netzero.com
Guest

Posted: Sat Oct 02, 2010 5:33 pm Post subject: High speed taxi tests: good or bad idea?

Here is may take on the 701/801 flying habits. 

A slatted wing will behave predictably till you hit the critical angle of attack. Then the slats start to 'breath' and funnel air over the top surface of the wing. At that point the plane gets twitchy and wants to fly at an accellerated rate and pitch movements through the controls will be laser precise. If you over correct and get the plane leveled off too quickly the reverse happens and the wing quits flying and the nose will drop. This all happens in a very narrow speed range which just happens to present itself when fast taxiing at just under flying speed.  The 701/801 design is different then  in any other plane in that at rotation it either wants to jump in the air with a positive rate of climb or linger at a wings level attitude if you don't rotate properly. It is not dangerous,,,,,, just real different then any other plane you will ever fly. 

Just my humble opinion after flying my 801 for 400 hours...... I LOVE my 801 !!!!!!!!!!!!!! 

Ben. 

do not archive

Ben Haas

N801BH

www.haaspowerair.com



--------

klondike(at)megalink.net
Guest

Posted: Sat Oct 02, 2010 6:53 pm Post subject: High speed taxi tests: good or bad idea?

we must also remember that the 701, 750, 801 horiz.  tail airfoil is a lot different than most other airplanes,  the airflow  over the tail helps to keep the nose high angle.     too  much power and oops, not enough power oops.

 Fritz----- do not archive

 [quote]   ---

jetboy

Joined: 22 Jul 2006
Posts: 233

Posted: Sun Oct 03, 2010 7:14 pm Post subject: Re: High speed taxi tests: good or bad idea?

I always felt the "bunny hops" method that permeated the ultralight scene a couple of decades ago was an accident waiting to happen - agree with John Bolding and others do not try this on a 701.



I did a few high angle low speed runs to get the feel with the nose high so I had confidence in the rudder, brakes, pitch  vs. power setting. I had a lot of experience with handling a C150A in these conditions so I taxied this way until my flight permit came thru. It is difficult work, much harder than flying normally.



Particularly with the 701 there is a marked pitch up effect at liftoff which although harmless is surprising to the unwary until you get used to not holding the stick too hard back.... and landing the pitch changes with throttle settings in summary its best not to try and learn all this body language close to the ground and best keep them as separate operations.



My favourite mentoring article is here:



http://www.acomodata.com/zenair701/index.htm





Ralph

_________________
Ralph - CH701 / 2200a

txpilot

Joined: 26 Feb 2007
Posts: 87
Location: Houston, TX

Posted: Thu Oct 07, 2010 3:17 pm Post subject: Re: High speed taxi tests: good or bad idea?

Wow!  Thanks to all who responded on the subject.  Tommy - that was a great video.  Thanks for that.



I decided to accomplish the high-speed taxi tests and I'm glad I did.  It behaved just as everyone said it would.  The nose came up prior to reaching 20 mph and I was able to pop a 'wheelie' down the runway at about 2800 rpm.  The airplane definitely needs lots of right rudder at such a high angle of attack and low speed.



Regarding the slats, it is practically an 'on-off' switch.  My theory:  these aren't your typical leading edge slats that protrude below the lower camber of the wing.  Chris Heintz designed them to be streamlined to the wing at low angles of attack.  The air really doesn't 'see' them.  Once the angle of attack is increased, they do their job by directing accelerated airflow over the top camber of the wing.  I believe that's why there's a danger of popping in the air unexpectedly, especially at higher speeds.



I wasn't up for doing rabbit hops down the runway as I believe in stabilized approach criteria.  That being said, I must confess the airplane did its first 'unofficial' flight by climbing 2 inches off the ground on the first rotation.  Nevertheless, it was a good experience for me to get used to my airplane and a good confidence builder for my first official flight.



Thanks again,



Dan Ginty

N787DG

kmccune

Joined: 22 Sep 2007
Posts: 577
Location: Wisconsin, USA

Posted: Thu Oct 07, 2010 3:43 pm Post subject: Re: High speed taxi tests: good or bad idea?

Ben,

This is good stuff can you remove the do not archive?



Kevin



 	  n801bh(at)netzero.com wrote: 	
		  Here is may take on the 701/801 flying habits. 

A slatted wing will behave predictably till you hit the critical angle of attack. Then the slats start to 'breath' and funnel air over the top surface of the wing. At that point the plane gets twitchy and wants to fly at an accellerated rate and pitch movements through the controls will be laser precise. If you over correct and get the plane leveled off too quickly the reverse happens and the wing quits flying and the nose will drop. This all happens in a very narrow speed range which just happens to present itself when fast taxiing at just under flying speed.  The 701/801 design is different then  in any other plane in that at rotation it either wants to jump in the air with a positive rate of climb or linger at a wings level attitude if you don't rotate properly. It is not dangerous,,,,,, just real different then any other plane you will ever fly. 

Just my humble opinion after flying my 801 for 400 hours...... I LOVE my 801 !!!!!!!!!!!!!! 

Ben. 

do not archive

Ben Haas

N801BH

www.haaspowerair.com



--------

n801bh(at)netzero.com
Guest

Posted: Thu Oct 07, 2010 3:55 pm Post subject: High speed taxi tests: good or bad idea?

Congrats on the "first flight".  

Getting daylight under the tires of a plane you built is a life changing moment you will never forget... 

do not archive

Ben Haas

N801BH

www.haaspowerair.com



--------

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