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edgraydallas
Joined: 13 Jun 2008
Posts: 74
Location: Dallas, Tx
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 Posted: Mon Oct 11, 2010 9:28 pm Post subject: rolling kitfox |
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Needing help with roll technique. I decided to try a few rolls in my model 2 with 582, so I put on my parachute, climbed to 5k and tried a few. I entered at 80 mph with 10 deg. Nose up, put in full left aileron, some left rudder, and maintained back pressure. When inverted, the nose dropped fast and at 270 deg. I was in a steep dive, so ended up sort of a split S out of it. Tried it several times with similar results.
What is the best procedure and entry speed and angle for an aileron roll? Also, anyone have experience with Cuban Eights?
Ed Gray, Dallas KII 582 do not archive
[quote][b]
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jlw3(at)juno.com
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| Posted: Mon Oct 11, 2010 11:10 pm Post subject: rolling kitfox |
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Hi Ed
I have a kitfox 1.with a 582
I don't thank your kitfox is strong enough to do aerobatics.
It looks like you war trying to do a barrel roll.
The airplane has a lot of drag and not much weight to carry
it though. you will probably have to use full power to keep up speed.
I thank VNE is 100 mph.
Again PLEASE check with some one that relay knows all about kitfox history
be for you try it again.
Be carfull Good Luck
Larry kitfox 1 582
Holly Hill, Fla.
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pchristensen10(at)austin.
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| Posted: Tue Oct 12, 2010 9:34 am Post subject: rolling kitfox |
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You forgot one step after "entered at 80 mph with 10 deg. Nose up, put in full left aileron"..You left out the part where you put your head between your legs and kiss your butt goodby.
Seriously, did you give down elevator when you were approaching inverted?
On 10/12/2010 12:23 AM, Ed Gray wrote: [quote] <![endif]--> <![endif]-->
Needing help with roll technique. I decided to try a few rolls in my model 2 with 582, so I put on my parachute, climbed to 5k and tried a few. I entered at 80 mph with 10 deg. Nose up, put in full left aileron, some left rudder, and maintained back pressure. When inverted, the nose dropped fast and at 270 deg. I was in a steep dive, so ended up sort of a split S out of it. Tried it several times with similar results.
What is the best procedure and entry speed and angle for an aileron roll? Also, anyone have experience with Cuban Eights?
Ed Gray, Dallas KII 582 do not archive
[b]
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KITFOXZ(at)aol.com
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| Posted: Tue Oct 12, 2010 1:38 pm Post subject: rolling kitfox |
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Caution doing this! Most voltage regulators require the battery to be in the circuit for system DC stability. It is very possible to smoke the voltage regulator and other electronic components on the bus without the battery's reference supply voltage connected!
John Z.
It is a similar issue with today's highly computerized cars. Never disconnect the battery from the car's electrical system expecting the car's alternator/voltage regulator to supply stable power
In a message dated 10/12/2010 5:22:13 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, nahsikhs(at)elltel.net writes:
| Quote: | --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Tom Jones" <nahsikhs(at)elltel.net>
Mine is a Rotax two stroke. To trouble shoot it when the battery went dead I disconnected the battery and checked the voltage coming out of the voltage regulator. It was 1/2 volt DC at all RPM.
I then disconnected the voltage regulator and checked the voltage coming out of the engine alternator. It was 35 volts AC at 3000 rpm and 70 volts AC at 6000 RPM. Normal according to the engine manual. I then knew it was a bad regulator.
I put on a new Key West regulator. It puts out 14 volts DC at all RPM.
--------
Tom Jones
Classic IV
503 Rotax, 72 inch Two blade Warp
Ellensburg, WA
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=315474#315474===============================================
_-= the ties Day ================================================ - MATRONICS WEB FORUMS ================================================ - List Contribution Web Site sp; ===================================================
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[quote][b]
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rexinator
Joined: 31 Jan 2009
Posts: 33
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| Posted: Wed Oct 13, 2010 6:46 am Post subject: rolling kitfox |
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HA HA! Pete and Larry make very good points.
I don't have experience in a Kitfox, but I have would suggest more up
pitch, probably 30 deg. and as Pete says apply down elevator as you roll
inverted to negate the dive input that the back pressure you maintain
will produce when inverted. At the very least make it neutral elevator
as you start the roll. It's always good to try to visualize what the
control surface positions are going to do to your attitude throughout
the manuver. Another refinement would be to think about the rudder input
as you are rolling. If you roll to the left and maintain left rudder
then it will act like down elevator as you pass through the 1st 90 deg.
of roll. To the refine the rudder input during the roll you would want
to input right rudder around that point and to then left again as you
roll through 270 deg. Practice the visualization and physical actions
you must perform while on the ground until you are sure you can execute
those actions in the air correctly. It's a complex dance of coordination
that can probably produce a decent roll with the right timing of feet
and hand movements.
Keep us advised so we know you survived. ;^)
Rexinator
M2, 582
Colorado
On 10/12/2010 11:29 AM, Pete Christensen wrote:
| Quote: | You forgot one step after "entered at 80 mph with 10 deg. Nose up, put
in full left aileron"..You left out the part where you put your head
between your legs and kiss your butt goodby.
Seriously, did you give down elevator when you were approaching inverted?
On 10/12/2010 12:23 AM, Ed Gray wrote:
>
> Needing help with roll technique. I decided to try a few rolls in my
> model 2 with 582, so I put on my parachute, climbed to 5k and tried a
> few. I entered at 80 mph with 10 deg. Nose up, put in full left
> aileron, some left rudder, and maintained back pressure. When
> inverted, the nose dropped fast and at 270 deg. I was in a steep
> dive, so ended up sort of a split S out of it. Tried it several
> times with similar results.
>
> What is the best procedure and entry speed and angle for an aileron
> roll? Also, anyone have experience with Cuban Eights?
>
> Ed Gray, Dallas KII 582 do not archive
>
> *
> *
*
*
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Aerobatics(at)aol.com
Guest
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| Posted: Wed Oct 13, 2010 7:02 am Post subject: rolling kitfox |
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A KF 2 is not a 4 .... Id roll a 4 way before a 2 in fact I would not roll a 2.
Dave
KF 2 582 450 hrs
and I have flown a 2, 3,4 5, 7....
In a message dated 10/13/2010 9:46:38 A.M. Central Daylight Time, rexinator(at)gmail.com writes:
| Quote: | --> Kitfox-List message posted by: Rexinator <rexinator(at)gmail.com>
HA HA! Pete and Larry make very good points.
I don't have experience in a Kitfox, but I have would suggest more up
pitch, probably 30 deg. and as Pete says apply down elevator as you roll
inverted to negate the dive input that the back pressure you maintain
will produce when inverted. At the very least make it neutral elevator
as you start the roll. It's always good to try to visualize what the
control surface positions are going to do to your attitude throughout
the manuver. Another refinement would be to think about the rudder input
as you are rolling. If you roll to the left and maintain left rudder
then it will act like down elevator as you pass through the 1st 90 deg.
of roll. To the refine the rudder input during the roll you would want
to input right rudder around that point and to then left again as you
roll through 270 deg. Practice the visualization and physical actions
you must perform while on the ground until you are sure you can execute
those actions in the air correctly. It's a complex dance of coordination
that can probably produce a decent roll with the right timing of feet
and hand movements.
Keep us advised so we know you survived. ;^)
Rexinator
M2, 582
Colorado
On 10/12/2010 11:29 AM, Pete Christensen wrote:
| Quote: | You forgot one step after "entered at 80 mph with 10 deg. Nose up, put
in full left aileron"..You left out the part where you put your head
between your legs and kiss your butt goodby.
Seriously, did you give down elevator when you were approaching inverted?
On 10/12/2010 12:23 AM, Ed Gray wrote:
>
> Needing help with roll technique. I decided to try a few rolls in my
> model 2 with 582, so I put on my parachute, climbed to 5k and tried a
> few. I entered at 80 mph with 10 deg. Nose up, put in full left
> aileron, some left rudder, and maintained back pressure. When
> inverted, the nose dropped fast and at 270 deg. I was in a steep
> dive, so ended up sort of a split S out of it. Tried it several
> times with similar results.
>
> What is the best procedure and entry speed and angle for an aileron
> roll? Also, anyone have experience with Cuban Eights?
>
> Ed Gray, Dallas KII 582 do not archive
>
> *
> *
*
======================== the ties Day ================================================ - MATRONICS WEB FORUMS ================================================ - List Contribution Web Site sp; ===================================================
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[quote][b]
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Guy Buchanan
Joined: 16 Jul 2006
Posts: 1204
Location: Ramona, CA
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| Posted: Wed Oct 13, 2010 9:23 am Post subject: rolling kitfox |
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On 10/13/2010 7:43 AM, Rexinator wrote: | Quote: | | I don't have experience in a Kitfox, but I have would suggest more up pitch, probably 30 deg. and as Pete says apply down elevator as you roll inverted to negate the dive input that the back pressure you maintain will produce when inverted. At the very least make it neutral elevator as you start the roll. |
OK, we've got people mixing up aileron rolls with slow rolls. Never do a slow roll in an aircraft without inverted systems, or at least fuel injection. As soon as the G's go negative the fan will stop and things will get real quiet and sweaty. If you push at all when inverted you'll get that feeling.
An aileron roll is what most people start with. It involves a descent for speed, an abrupt pull to about a 10-15 degree climb, a very brief hold at that attitude to make sure you're NOT pulling, then full aileron deflection with enough rudder to counteract adverse yaw. The controls are held nearly constant until you roll out level, whereupon the aileron and rudder are centered, (possibly a little opposite aileron if the roll rate's fast enough,) and then a pull to level flight. I say nearly constant because in level flight conventional aircraft run up elevator for stability. As you roll the up elevator will try to corkscrew the aircraft because the up elevator's no longer opposed by the weight forward of the CG because you're no longer level. Therefore, you have to watch the nose as you roll 90 and push ONLY ENOUGH to keep nose nose of the aircraft from "climbing" (from your perspective) as you roll. The aircraft's vertical profile should be wave shaped: up, then down, then level. You should not experience any negative g's, never less than 0 as you float over the top.
A slow roll, on the other hand, is where you point the nose straight ahead and attempt to roll around that point. It involves lots of manipulations of rudder and elevator to go with full aileron and always involves -1g in the inverted position. You can combine the two, of course, but as I said if you pull any negative g's you'll at least want inverted fuel to keep the engine around to help you complete the maneuver.
A split-S out of a roll is caused by pulling. With elevator in you'll corkscrew through the air with increasing amplitude as you roll.
--
Guy Buchanan Normal Guy Buchanan 2 13 2010-09-24T17:53:00Z 2010-09-24T17:53:00Z 1 30 173 1 1 202 14.00 <![endif]--> false false false false EN-US X-NONE X-NONE <![endif]--> <![endif]--> /* Style Definitions */ table.MsoNormalTable {mso-style-name:"Table Normal"; mso-tstyle-rowband-size:0; mso-tstyle-colband-size:0; mso-style-noshow:yes; mso-style-priority:99; mso-style-parent:""; mso-padding-alt:0in 5.4pt 0in 5.4pt; mso-para-margin-top:0in; mso-para-margin-right:0in; mso-para-margin-bottom:10.0pt; mso-para-margin-left:0in; line-height:115%; mso-pagination:widow-orphan; font-size:11.0pt; font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"; mso-ascii-font-family:Calibri; mso-ascii-theme-font:minor-latin; mso-hansi-font-family:Calibri; mso-hansi-theme-font:minor-latin; mso-bidi-font-family:"Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-theme-font:minor-bidi;} <![endif]--> <![endif]--> <![endif]-->
Guy Buchanan Kitfox IV-1200 / 582-C / Warp 3cs / 500? hours
[quote][b]
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Guy Buchanan
Deceased K-IV 1200
A glider pilot too. |
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akflyer
Joined: 07 May 2007
Posts: 574
Location: Soldotna AK
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| Posted: Fri Oct 15, 2010 7:37 am Post subject: Re: rolling kitfox |
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I am thinking that some are getting a barrel roll (not axial) mixed up with a aileron roll (axial if done right). The barrel roll looks like a cork screw and keeps positive g's on the plane at all times. A good aileron roll is axial and the flight path through the centerline of the aircraft does not change. There is a huge difference between a slow roll (one full roll could go from horizon to horizon if you wanted to) and a point roll (could be 4 or 8 points but requires hesitation at each point) and just a regular aileron roll. All three of these need to be performed axially and the nose should not waiver on the horizon, which dictates the use of elevator and rudder inputs at various stages of the roll.
Atleast, this is what we are taught in mini IAC judging schools and as IMAC competitors.
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_________________
DO NOT ARCHIVE
Leonard Perry aka SNAKE
Soldotna AK
Avid "C" / Mk IV
582 (147 hrs and counting on the rebuild)
IVO IFA
Full Lotus 1450
#1 snake oil salesman since 1-22-2009
I would rather die trying to live, than to live trying not to die.... |
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