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KeysFox
Joined: 05 Jan 2009
Posts: 137
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 Posted: Tue Oct 26, 2010 8:53 am Post subject: engine quit due to ethanol |
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I have had two engines die because of phase seperation or settle-out of
water and ethanol from auto gas. It got my attention. Here are a couple of
take away points.
When a certain amount of water is absorbed by the ethanol in auto gas, the
ethanol and water settle-out to the bottom of the tank without much
warning.
If you sometimes saw a bit of water when you sumped your tanks in the days
before the conversion to ethanol blended gas but have not seen it since,
be careful. The ethanol in the auto gas may be absorbing that water now
causing a false sense of security. At some point in time enough water
might be absorbed to trigger settle-out.
My settleout came right out of the pump because water got into the gas
station tanks causing settleout to occur inside thier tanks. I had a long
open and frank discussion with the folks who manage the distributers
systems for most of the gas stations in my area of the state and picked
thier brains.
The gas distributer had major expenses at gas stations all across the
region where cars stalled at the pumps or not far from the station needing
tows and "repairs".
I removed the settleout from my tanks and found that it passes right thru
a funnel designed to capture water. So you can not rely on those funnels
to catch settle-out.
If you use auto gas that is not brownish in color but relatively clear
looking, when you sump your tanks it will not be easy to distinguish gas
from settleout. Both will look clear. If you use brownish gas and the sump
fluid looks clear, suspect settle-out.
When settle-out occurs you get a large volume of it fairly suddenly. About
ten percent of the total quantity in the tank is settleout, so when you
sump a tank you will not see the familiar "line" between water and gas
that we are accustomed to with av-gas or ethanol free gas if a small
amount of water is present. If your tank has 10 gallons of fuel, one
gallon will be settleout, way more than most pilots routinely sump out of
thier tanks.
If you have a header tank it may be possible to get into the air before
settle-out from a wing tank gets to the engine and kills it.
As others have said, ethanol absorbs water from the atmosphere and from
condensation inside your gas tanks, so leaving gas sitting for extended
time frames in a plane or gas can may trigger settleout in areas of high
humidity.
Gas distributers do add the ethanol to tankers just as they leave on
delivery in order to avoid absorption of water from the atmosphere.
Planes and fuel containers that are vented and exposed to rain, wind
driven rain or other water sources are at increased risk.
Arid areas pose low risk.
The test paste that is used on the end of rods to detect water in gas
tanks requires a trained eye to detect settle-out. The gas distributers
tech showed me and I could not detect settle-out although he thought he
could.
Most car gas systems are refilled with fresh fuel frequently, and are
sealed so absorption of atmospheric moisture is minimal posing very low
risk of settleout.
Settleout is not a common problem, but when it occurs it can be dangerous.
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pchristensen10(at)austin.
Guest
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| Posted: Tue Oct 26, 2010 9:23 am Post subject: engine quit due to ethanol |
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Thanks BJ, That is one reason I wash my gasoline. I hangared in Las
Cruces, NM (where I could get ethanol free gas) before I moved to the
Austin, TX area (where they introduced ethanol starting last fall).
Before I moved, I never found any water when I sumped my tanks. Now I
get water every time I sump. I moved from a dry environment to a wet
one AND lost the availability of ethanol free gas.
Pete
Leander, TX Kitfox III, 912
On 10/26/2010 11:50 AM, bjones(at)dmv.com wrote:
| Quote: |
I have had two engines die because of phase seperation or settle-out of
water and ethanol from auto gas. It got my attention. Here are a couple of
take away points.
When a certain amount of water is absorbed by the ethanol in auto gas, the
ethanol and water settle-out to the bottom of the tank without much
warning.
If you sometimes saw a bit of water when you sumped your tanks in the days
before the conversion to ethanol blended gas but have not seen it since,
be careful. The ethanol in the auto gas may be absorbing that water now
causing a false sense of security. At some point in time enough water
might be absorbed to trigger settle-out.
My settleout came right out of the pump because water got into the gas
station tanks causing settleout to occur inside thier tanks. I had a long
open and frank discussion with the folks who manage the distributers
systems for most of the gas stations in my area of the state and picked
thier brains.
The gas distributer had major expenses at gas stations all across the
region where cars stalled at the pumps or not far from the station needing
tows and "repairs".
I removed the settleout from my tanks and found that it passes right thru
a funnel designed to capture water. So you can not rely on those funnels
to catch settle-out.
If you use auto gas that is not brownish in color but relatively clear
looking, when you sump your tanks it will not be easy to distinguish gas
from settleout. Both will look clear. If you use brownish gas and the sump
fluid looks clear, suspect settle-out.
When settle-out occurs you get a large volume of it fairly suddenly. About
ten percent of the total quantity in the tank is settleout, so when you
sump a tank you will not see the familiar "line" between water and gas
that we are accustomed to with av-gas or ethanol free gas if a small
amount of water is present. If your tank has 10 gallons of fuel, one
gallon will be settleout, way more than most pilots routinely sump out of
thier tanks.
If you have a header tank it may be possible to get into the air before
settle-out from a wing tank gets to the engine and kills it.
As others have said, ethanol absorbs water from the atmosphere and from
condensation inside your gas tanks, so leaving gas sitting for extended
time frames in a plane or gas can may trigger settleout in areas of high
humidity.
Gas distributers do add the ethanol to tankers just as they leave on
delivery in order to avoid absorption of water from the atmosphere.
Planes and fuel containers that are vented and exposed to rain, wind
driven rain or other water sources are at increased risk.
Arid areas pose low risk.
The test paste that is used on the end of rods to detect water in gas
tanks requires a trained eye to detect settle-out. The gas distributers
tech showed me and I could not detect settle-out although he thought he
could.
Most car gas systems are refilled with fresh fuel frequently, and are
sealed so absorption of atmospheric moisture is minimal posing very low
risk of settleout.
Settleout is not a common problem, but when it occurs it can be dangerous.
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Roger Lee
Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1464
Location: Tucson, Az.
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| Posted: Tue Oct 26, 2010 12:30 pm Post subject: Re: engine quit due to ethanol |
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If you ever see water in the gascolator or sump using fuel with ethanol then the entire system including the fuel tanks must be drained. That means the entire fuel is fully saturated with water and there is so much of it, it is falling out of solution. This is not the same with Avgas as that fuel will not absorb the water and it settles to the low points right away.
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_________________
Roger Lee
Tucson, Az.
Rotax Instructor & Rotax IRC
Light Sport Repairman
Home 520-574-1080 TRY HOME FIRST
Cell 520-349-7056 |
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pchristensen10(at)austin.
Guest
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| Posted: Tue Oct 26, 2010 2:06 pm Post subject: engine quit due to ethanol |
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Thanks Roger. That is one great reason I first wash my gas.
Pete
On 10/26/2010 3:30 PM, Roger Lee wrote:
| Quote: |
If you ever see water in the gascolator or sump using fuel with ethanol then the entire system including the fuel tanks must be drained. That means the entire fuel is fully saturated with water and there is so much of it, it is falling out of solution. This is not the same with Avgas as that fuel will not absorb the water and it settles to the low points right away.
--------
Roger Lee
Tucson, Az.
Light Sport Repairman - Maintenance Rated
Rotax Repair Center
520-574-1080
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=317130#317130
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Lion8
Joined: 21 Jun 2009
Posts: 31
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| Posted: Tue Oct 26, 2010 6:36 pm Post subject: engine quit due to ethanol |
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I have the drain on the bottom of my tank but I never use it. I made a clear tubing siphon with a primer bulb
near one end. I slide a piece or white pvc over the tubing to keep it straight. I then put the pvc & tube into the tank to the bottom and siphon the bottom of the tank like a swimming pool bottom sweeper. This picks up not only any water but it will pick up any sediment in the tank. Never had a problem with water due to the ethanol using this method. I sweep the tank once a month. I also have stripped out ethanol but never put the straight gas in my plane. Works fine in all my other I/C engines. Hope this helps someone.-Lion8
---
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Tom (Lion8), Currently Flying an LSA Trike
Rebuilding a Kitfox IV Speedster
Southern New Jersey |
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Roger Lee
Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1464
Location: Tucson, Az.
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| Posted: Tue Oct 26, 2010 6:46 pm Post subject: Re: engine quit due to ethanol |
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Pete,
I see you are running a 912. Is it the UL 80 hp or the ULS 100 hp?
The washed gas with the 80 hp is ok if you washed 91 oct.at the left over 88 octane, but if you have the ULS 100 hp. You need to add some Avgas to get the octane back up to 91. If you are washing 87 oct. then it isn't sutible for the UL either and would need some Avgas to bring it's octane rating back up. Rotax says no less than a 50/50 mix when trying to raise octane with Avgas from a low auto fuel octane.
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_________________
Roger Lee
Tucson, Az.
Rotax Instructor & Rotax IRC
Light Sport Repairman
Home 520-574-1080 TRY HOME FIRST
Cell 520-349-7056 |
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KeysFox
Joined: 05 Jan 2009
Posts: 137
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| Posted: Wed Oct 27, 2010 4:24 am Post subject: engine quit due to ethanol |
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Keep in mind that if you get water in a tank with ethanol blended gas, it
will not show up during sumping. The water is absorbed into the ethanol if
and until a certain concentration occurs then the ethanol and water will
settleout to the bottom together, in a large bolus, that is about one
gallon of settleout in a ten gallon tank of gas.
You can't sump the water out to prevent phase seperation.
BJ
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B Jones
N154K
443-480-1023 |
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pchristensen10(at)austin.
Guest
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| Posted: Wed Oct 27, 2010 7:05 am Post subject: engine quit due to ethanol |
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Roger,
I have the 80 horse and I wash 93 octane. I have been doing this since
the middle of July with so far no side effects. I went on a long cross
country to Reklaw, TX (Search Youtube for Reklaw) flew around there a
bit so I had about 500 miles round trip and used 20+ gallons of washed
gas on just that trip. Not a hickup. I fly many long cross countries,
some so long that I have to use an occasional bit of 100LL to make it
home. Last month on a trip to Nacagdoches, TX. I put 10 gallons of LL
to make it home to Leander, TX (77T N of Austin). I know that because
you are a Light Sport Repairman, you can't really recommend washing gas,
but, it works for me, so far, and I am careful. I use Sta-Bil in my
washed gas just in case I have to let it sit for a week or two. By the
way, I wash my gas because I have fiberglass tanks in my Kitfox and I
don't want to remove the wings to Kreem them. I probably will have to
do that someday and when I do I will try Kreem. Washing 10 gallons of
gas takes me about 10 minutes because if my "super secret technique" ;>)
(not counting the wait time for the settlement which I don't count
because I have plenty to do elsewhere during that time)
Pete
On 10/26/2010 9:46 PM, Roger Lee wrote:
| Quote: |
Pete,
I see you are running a 912. Is it the UL 80 hp or the ULS 100 hp?
The washed gas with the 80 hp is ok if you washed 91 oct.at the left over 88 octane, but if you have the ULS 100 hp. You need to add some Avgas to get the octane back up to 91. If you are washing 87 oct. then it isn't sutible for the UL either and would need some Avgas to bring it's octane rating back up. Rotax says no less than a 50/50 mix when trying to raise octane with Avgas from a low auto fuel octane.
--------
Roger Lee
Tucson, Az.
Light Sport Repairman - Maintenance Rated
Rotax Repair Center
Home 520-574-1080 TRY HOME FIRST
Cell 520349-7056
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=317163#317163
|
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dvanlanen
Joined: 25 Jul 2006
Posts: 122
Location: Madison, WI
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| Posted: Wed Oct 27, 2010 9:29 am Post subject: engine quit due to ethanol |
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I’m a newbie to the ethanol discussion. Could someone define “washing gasoline” for me?
Thanks,
Dave
Time: 10:23:51 AM PST US
From: Pete Christensen <pchristensen10(at)austin.rr.com>
Subject: Re: engine quit due to ethanol
Thanks BJ, That is one reason I wash my gasoline. I hangared in Las Cruces, NM (where I could get ethanol free gas) before I moved to the Austin, TX area (where they introduced ethanol starting last fall).
Before I moved, I never found any water when I sumped my tanks. Now I get water every time I sump. I moved from a dry environment to a wet one AND lost the availability of ethanol free gas.
Pete
Leander, TX Kitfox III, 912
On 10/26/2010 11:50 AM, bjones(at)dmv.com wrote:
[quote] --> Kitfox-List message posted by: bjones(at)dmv.com
I have had two engines die because of phase seperation or settle-out
of water and ethanol from auto gas. It got my attention. Here are a
couple of take away points.
When a certain amount of water is absorbed by the ethanol in auto gas [quote][b]
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pchristensen10(at)austin.
Guest
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| Posted: Wed Oct 27, 2010 10:09 am Post subject: engine quit due to ethanol |
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This is not for the timid nor for rule followers. It is strictly experimental in nature. I make no claim as to safety but have been successful since the Middle of July. I have flown 67 hours since I started washing gas probably 20 or so of that was on other gas at airports on the way two and from Oshkosh.
Essentially I mix together 1 quart of water and 5 gallons of gasoline. It is important that these 2 are somehow mixed thoroughly. I use a 6.5 gallon glass carboy. After a half hour or so I am able to siphon the washed gasoline off the top of the water ethanol mix. The water attracts and absorbs the ethanol.
Here is what I described explained more thoroughly on a previous post I made:
" I siphon my unwashed gasoline into the water I have standing in the bottom of my 6.5 gallon glass carboy by putting the outlet side of the siphon hose in the standing water so that the gasoline swirls into the standing water. Having marked the water level on the side of the carboy before adding gas I am able to judge the quantity of ethanol I have removed since the level comes up about 3/4" after the mix settles. I usually let it sit 1/2 hour to be safe. I then siphon washed gas off the top leaving about 1.25" of gasoline on top of the water so that I don't siphon up any water with the washed gas. I can wash about 25-30 gallons by just siphoning more unwashed gas into the carboy and don't have to add any more water with each carboy fill up. Eventually there is 4 or 5 inches of alcohol/water mix in the bottom of of the carboy so that only 4 gallons of unwashed gas can be added. When that happens I siphon the alcohol/water mix off the bottom of the tank being careful not to siphon any gasoline.
I then start over. There is always some gas and water/alcohol left in the carboy so that I am not wasting any gasoline. "
Pete
On 10/27/2010 12:25 PM, david van lanen wrote: [quote] Re: engine quit due to ethanol
I’m a newbie to the ethanol discussion. Could someone define “washing gasoline” for me?
Thanks,
Dave
Time: 10:23:51 AM PST US
From: Pete Christensen <pchristensen10(at)austin.rr.com> (pchristensen10(at)austin.rr.com)
Subject: Re: engine quit due to ethanol
Thanks BJ, That is one reason I wash my gasoline. I hangared in Las Cruces, NM (where I could get ethanol free gas) before I moved to the Austin, TX area (where they introduced ethanol starting last fall).
Before I moved, I never found any water when I sumped my tanks. Now I get water every time I sump. I moved from a dry environment to a wet one AND lost the availability of ethanol free gas.
Pete
Leander, TX Kitfox III, 912
[b]
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dave
Joined: 22 Sep 2006
Posts: 1382
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| Posted: Thu Oct 28, 2010 5:02 pm Post subject: Re: engine quit due to ethanol |
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I use ethanol gas daily and never had a problem.
Go figure !!
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Realtime Kitfox movies to separate the internet chatter from the truth
http://www.youtube.com/user/kitfoxflyer
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Float Flyr
Joined: 19 Jul 2006
Posts: 2704
Location: Campbellton, Newfoundland
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| Posted: Fri Oct 29, 2010 4:34 am Post subject: engine quit due to ethanol |
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I've done several inspections of the tanks of many types of aircraft. In
gas powered aircraft the worst I've found is a few hairs from the felt used
to filter the fuel as it is put into the plane. ( all 100LL ) If you want
to see a good crop of kelp have a look into the tank of an older turbine
powered aircraft. It will amaze you what can grow in darkness in a kerosene
environment which spends a lot of time extremely cold.
Noel
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Noel Loveys
Kitfox III-A
Aerocet 1100 Floats |
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Dorsal
Joined: 29 Mar 2008
Posts: 34
Location: MA
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| Posted: Fri Oct 29, 2010 4:36 am Post subject: Re: engine quit due to ethanol |
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Too many potential issues, 100% Avgas and Decalin for me. Had a nasty issue with Mogas releasing a resin like substance from my tank and completely fouling my carbs. Sure would like another option.
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Dorsal ~~^~~
Series 7 Flying
912S Warp Drive |
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Vic Baker
Joined: 11 Jan 2006
Posts: 71
Location: Carson City, Nevada
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| Posted: Fri Oct 29, 2010 7:00 am Post subject: engine quit due to ethanol |
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Ok guys, that's enough for me. No more ethanol in my fuel tanks! Just
found fuel 60 miles away in Fallon, Nevada. Going to load up my jerry jugs
and drive there today.
http://www.pure-gas.org/index.jsp?stateprov=NV
Vic Baker
S7 912S Warp
Carson City, Nv
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Vic Baker
Series 7
Carson City, Nevada |
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KeysFox
Joined: 05 Jan 2009
Posts: 137
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| Posted: Fri Oct 29, 2010 9:16 am Post subject: engine quit due to ethanol |
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Kelp in the tank
does that qualify as going green
BJ
---
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B Jones
N154K
443-480-1023 |
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Rich L
Joined: 23 Feb 2008
Posts: 63
Location: North Idaho
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| Posted: Sat Oct 30, 2010 5:39 am Post subject: Re: engine quit due to ethanol |
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This site, or others like it, might help.
www.pure-gas.org
Rich
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Rich Little
N812RL S-7 912ULS
North Idaho
Kiev Prop |
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KeysFox
Joined: 05 Jan 2009
Posts: 137
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| Posted: Sat Oct 30, 2010 6:09 am Post subject: engine quit due to ethanol |
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Rich,
Thanks.
I use pure-gas.org routinely when traveling to find gas stations with
ethanol free gas.
I have towed my Kifox IV all over the US inside an enclosed car trailer
behind a one ton Chevy conversion van (Roadtrek). Its been a hoot flying
around all of the major national parks and places of interest conjoined
with seeing the sites across the USA from the Roadtrek-Chevrolet.
By keeping about 30 gallons of ethanol free gas in the trailer, and using
pure-gas.com to find refills along the way I have not had wash gas or
revert to use of 100 LL yet. ( about 450 hours on the Rotax 912, 80 hp)
By the way, my favorite places to fly are Lake Powell, Moab, Canyon Lands,
Bar Harbor, Florida Keys to Dry Tortugas, and Big Sur coast line.
The devastation along the Gulf coast and New Orleans area after hurricane
Katrina may have been the most eye opening.
BJ
N154K
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B Jones
N154K
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Float Flyr
Joined: 19 Jul 2006
Posts: 2704
Location: Campbellton, Newfoundland
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| Posted: Sat Oct 30, 2010 2:04 pm Post subject: engine quit due to ethanol |
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If you get enough, it qualifies not being able to fill the tanks, not being
able to empty the tanks and not going much of anywhere.
Noel
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Noel Loveys
Kitfox III-A
Aerocet 1100 Floats |
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Rich L
Joined: 23 Feb 2008
Posts: 63
Location: North Idaho
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| Posted: Sun Oct 31, 2010 4:21 am Post subject: Re: engine quit due to ethanol |
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BJ
What a great way to get the most out of your plane. It sure gets around the fuel and weather problems. I have a friend with a SeaRay who says he can find the pure stuff around boating areas. I am lucky to have more than one source within 30 miles. A couple of nearby stations here and in Montana are advertising "NON-Ethanol" fuel. I hope the gas police don't shut them down.
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Rich Little
N812RL S-7 912ULS
North Idaho
Kiev Prop |
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