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4 blade prop - Rick Girard

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Jimmy Young

Joined: 24 Nov 2007
Posts: 182
Location: Missouri City, TX

Posted: Tue Nov 02, 2010 4:13 pm Post subject: 4 blade prop - Rick Girard

Rick,



I noticed while I was culling through the non-Kolb related discussions of the last two days that you have a 4-bladed prop with a 4-1 redrive. Just curious, what is the length on that prop, the manufacturer, and what was the reason you went with it? Did you ever have a 2 or 3 blade prop on the same engine/plane? I'm asking to learn, not trying to be critical in any way.

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_________________
Jimmy Young
Missouri City, TX
Kolb FS II/HKS 700

rickofudall

Joined: 19 Sep 2009
Posts: 1392
Location: Udall, KS, USA

Posted: Tue Nov 02, 2010 4:50 pm Post subject: 4 blade prop - Rick Girard

I bought my plane from a couple of helicopter instructors at Ft Rucker in Alabama and it came with a three blade 68" WD with tapered blades. When those blades were damaged by contacting the flap bell cranks hitting the face of the prop blades I decided to step back to a 66" diameter as recommended in the plans and did not get the new blades tapered. I also acquired a two blade hub off eBay and tried that for about a day, but didn't like the vibration level and went back to the three blade. That is what I have on the Kolb at this time. On my HKS powered trike I have a 68" four blade Powerfin with "F" blades. I have the 3.45 gearbox on that engine. Very quiet, especially when I keep the engine throttled back when I'm flying with the big wing on. I rarely run the engine faster than 4900 RPM in cruise with that wing.

 I haven't tried the Powerfin with the Kolb yet, although I'd like to before I put the plane up for the winter, mostly because the folks at WD tell me the one I have is completely wrong for my engine / gearbox combo. So now I'm wondering if there is some performance to be had with more blade area and I'm lucky enough to have a prop I can try without having to spend any money to do it. So the most I can tell you at this time is that I'll let you know how it works out.

 



Rick



On Tue, Nov 2, 2010 at 7:13 PM, Jimmy Young <jdy100(at)comcast.net (jdy100(at)comcast.net)> wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   --> Kolb-List message posted by: "Jimmy Young" <jdy100(at)comcast.net (jdy100(at)comcast.net)>

 

 Rick,

 

 I noticed while I was culling through the non-Kolb related discussions of the last two days that you have a 4-bladed prop with a 4-1 redrive. Just curious, what is the length on that prop, the manufacturer, and what was the reason you went with it? Did you ever have a 2 or 3 blade prop on the same engine/plane? I'm asking to learn, not trying to be critical in any way.

  

 --------

 Jimmy Young

 Missouri City, TX

 Kolb FS II/HKS 700

 

 

 

 

 Read this topic online here:

 

 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=317922#317922

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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 et="_blank">www.homebuilthelp.com

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 le, List Admin.

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 arget="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-List

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-- 

Zulu Delta

Kolb Mk IIIC

582 Gray head

4.00 C gearbox

3 blade WD

Thanks, Homer GBYM

It is not bigotry to be certain we are right; but it is bigotry to be unable to imagine how we might possibly have gone wrong.

  - G.K. Chesterton



 

  [quote][b]

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rickofudall

Joined: 19 Sep 2009
Posts: 1392
Location: Udall, KS, USA

Posted: Fri Nov 05, 2010 6:48 pm Post subject: 4 blade prop - Rick Girard

Jimmy, all, Well here's an interesting data point. It has been such a lovely day here that I couldn't let the opportunity go by to commit aviation.So, anyway, I thought I'd take an hour, swap the 68" four blade Powerfin with the three blade 66" Warp Drive and answer Jimmy's question and my own.

 Both my trike and the Mk III have the props set for similar performance. With the HKS I get 5800 RPM at WOT static and about an 800 fpm climb rate. The 582 on Zulu Delta gets 6000 static and the climb rate is almost identical. Since the 582 has 5 more HP and a lightly lower gear ratio, 4 to 1, versus the HKS  with 60 HP and a 3.45 gearbox I figured the props would swap straight across. 

 By the time I finished getting the prop bolts torqued it was right at 5:00, the temperature was peaked at 56 and the wind was undetectable. What little there was, was coming right down 35. I finished preflight, checked the mags as the coolant temp gage reached the bottom of the green arc and taxied into position, oops, lined up, and rolled on the throttle. If anything,  I was expecting the engine to over rev slightly. Zulu Delta seemed to accelerate normally and then at 4400 RPM the tach needle stopped moving. The tail was up, she was ready to rotate and I let her come off the runway thinking maybe the grass was extra sticky or something today. Nope, nada, the engine wouldn't rev beyond 4400. I pulled power, let her settle and taxied back to my yard. So much for swapping props straight across. I briefly considered just putting the Warp Drive back on and letting things be, but curiosity got the better of me.

 I made a TLAR estimate of how much to change the pitch after a quick measurement with the Warp Drive protractor and got started.

Next try the engine hit 6000 and except for the vibration level everything was fine. Once I reached pattern altitude I made a quick check of airspeed at my normal cruising RPM of 5600. 62 miles per hour ground speed on the GPS going downwind and 58 coming back. Almost 8 mph slower than what I normally get. Not exactly what I was hoping for. About the only thing I liked about the performance was how steep a landing approach I could make with full flaps. It was almost as good as when I had the Rice King clutch in the gearbox. Needless to say the Warp Drive goes back on in the morning. If it's wrong at least it's a better match to the 582 than this particular Power Fin.

 I guess what really amazes me is how well the HKS performs with that same prop and two degrees more pitch.

Rick Girard

Rick Girard



On Tue, Nov 2, 2010 at 7:48 PM, Richard Girard <aslsa.rng(at)gmail.com (aslsa.rng(at)gmail.com)> wrote:

  	  Quote: 	
		  I bought my plane from a couple of helicopter instructors at Ft Rucker in Alabama and it came with a three blade 68" WD with tapered blades. When those blades were damaged by contacting the flap bell cranks hitting the face of the prop blades I decided to step back to a 66" diameter as recommended in the plans and did not get the new blades tapered. I also acquired a two blade hub off eBay and tried that for about a day, but didn't like the vibration level and went back to the three blade. That is what I have on the Kolb at this time.  On my HKS powered trike I have a 68" four blade Powerfin with "F" blades. I have the 3.45 gearbox on that engine. Very quiet, especially when I keep the engine throttled back when I'm flying with the big wing on. I rarely run the engine faster than 4900 RPM in cruise with that wing.

  I haven't tried the Powerfin with the Kolb yet, although I'd like to before I put the plane up for the winter, mostly because the folks at WD tell me the one I have is completely wrong for my engine / gearbox combo. So now I'm wondering if there is some performance to be had with more blade area and I'm lucky enough to have a prop I can try without having to spend any money to do it. So the most I can tell you at this time is that I'll let you know how it works out.

  



Rick

On Tue, Nov 2, 2010 at 7:13 PM, Jimmy Young <jdy100(at)comcast.net (jdy100(at)comcast.net)> wrote:

  	  Quote: 	
		   --> Kolb-List message posted by: "Jimmy Young" <jdy100(at)comcast.net (jdy100(at)comcast.net)>

 

 Rick,

 

 I noticed while I was culling through the non-Kolb related discussions of the last two days that you have a 4-bladed prop with a 4-1 redrive. Just curious, what is the length on that prop, the manufacturer, and what was the reason you went with it? Did you ever have a 2 or 3 blade prop on the same engine/plane? I'm asking to learn, not trying to be critical in any way.

   

 --------

 Jimmy Young

 Missouri City, TX

 Kolb FS II/HKS 700

 

 

 

 

 Read this topic online here:

 

 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=317922#317922

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 ===========

 ="_blank">www.aeroelectric.com

 ooks.com" target="_blank">www.buildersbooks.com

 et="_blank">www.homebuilthelp.com

 ="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution

 le, List Admin.

 ===========

 arget="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-List

 ===========

 http://forums.matronics.com

 ===========

 

 

 

 	






-- 

Zulu Delta

Kolb Mk IIIC

582 Gray head

4.00 C gearbox

3 blade WD

Thanks, Homer GBYM

 It is not bigotry to be certain we are right; but it is bigotry to be unable to imagine how we might possibly have gone wrong.

  - G.K. Chesterton



 

 	


-- 

Zulu Delta

Kolb Mk IIIC

582 Gray head

4.00 C gearbox

3 blade WD

Thanks, Homer GBYM

It is not bigotry to be certain we are right; but it is bigotry to be unable to imagine how we might possibly have gone wrong.

  - G.K. Chesterton



 

  [quote][b]

- The Matronics Kolb-List Email Forum -

Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:

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_________________
The smallest miracle right in front of you is enough to make you happy....

Jimmy Young

Joined: 24 Nov 2007
Posts: 182
Location: Missouri City, TX

Posted: Sat Nov 06, 2010 1:01 am Post subject: Re: 4 blade prop - Rick Girard

Rick/List,



I also did some prop pitch tweaking this past week. I set my 66" Powerfin 2-blade at the most pitch to date that I have ever tried. Those who are familiar with a Powerfin will know it is changed with a feeler gauge between the hub and a pin you insert in a hole, and I've now got it set at .065". Have no idea what pitch or degree that is, just know it's more pitch. 



It cost me a little climb, about 150 fpm, but I picked up a good 5-7 mph airspeed. It will be a good winter setting. I used to easily hit redline in WOT straight/level, now I have to keep it firewalled for a while & it will get to about 6150 rpm (redline is 6200). It is nice though to look down and see the ASI past 60 most of the time rather than the low 50's.



We are having a fly-in today at our airport, Bailes Field (6R5). I'll take a few photos & if any are worthy I'll post them tomorrow. Should be a beautiful day for flying, 5 mph winds and a high in the low 70's.

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_________________
Jimmy Young
Missouri City, TX
Kolb FS II/HKS 700

mccarthy(at)jefnet.com
Guest

Posted: Sun Nov 07, 2010 5:09 am Post subject: 4 blade prop - Rick Girard

Jim,



The last email I sent you last week was returned with a "comcast returned for spam".  You may want to adjust your filter. I'll attach it to the bottom of this post so you can read it.

First of all, I want to say I have never flown a Firestar 2, so I cannot give any qualified advise.  If it were my plane, with a HKS/2.58 gearbox, I would think about calling Daryl at Warp and see if he thinks a 2 or 3 blade 68" might make a  difference in your performance. I'm not sure if you have the clearance, but a simple 1" round aluminum shim between the motor and mount would fix that, or even simpler if you have deep rubber mounts, they can be turned 180 degrees to gain an extra inch.





 	  Quote: 	
		        Tom McCarthy            N514 TM  Zenith 601HD             N414 TM  Kolb Firestar             N863 GB  Kolb Slingshot        	






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From: McCarthy Tom <mccarthy(at)jefnet.com (mccarthy(at)jefnet.com)>



Date: October 31, 2010 6:22:39 AM CDT



To: Jimmy Young <jdy100(at)comcast.net (jdy100(at)comcast.net)>



Subject: Re: HKS & Kolbs



JIm,



Thanks again for the pic's.  I was hoping you had a shot of all the plumbing close up to compare to my installation.  The oil tank is mounted right behind the passenger seat, up high enough to easily get to the drain plug and  empty.  I think I finally solved my temp problems.  In the typical HKS install, the giant muffler sits directly in front of the air filters, but on mine, I ran the muffler down the back of the fuse in front of the prop.  I now know that the ram air effect causes the slides in the carb's to do crazy things.  I made up air deflectors in the air filters and just like that, my EGT's are in the 1250 range.  Yesterday the air temp was around 55, and I had the radiator blocked about 2/3 with oil temps around 200, and my CHT's were around 320-330, (which still seems too high).  I'm planning on putting several hours on it today and wring it out some.



If I ever do make it down to the Houston area, I will let you know.  I had planned to take my Zenith down the last two years, but never could get time off when my friend was available, so I might actually take a commercial flight.  If I do fly, what airport close to Fulshear would you recommend that I could tie down at? I should mention that I have no transponder, so I need to stay out of Houston airspace.

Thanks again,

Tom 



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