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jbhart(at)onlyinternet.ne Guest
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Posted: Mon Nov 01, 2010 4:01 am Post subject: E15 |
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Kolbers,
Here in Indiana, the Governor is pushing to raise the ethanol in the lowest
priced auto fuel from 10% to 15%. Is anyone using fuel that contains over
10% ethanol in a two cycle engine, and are you experiencing any problems?
Jack B. Hart FF004
Winchester, IN
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Eugene Zimmerman
Joined: 10 Jan 2006 Posts: 392
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Posted: Mon Nov 01, 2010 5:58 pm Post subject: Re: E15 |
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Jack,
Anything over 10% ethanol will make the corn stalks wave at you when you fly low & slow over the Indiana corn fields.
Be real careful though to keep your tail wheel out of the corn tassels or they will reach up and give you one big ole juicy green hug & kiss.
Gene
P. S. Until you see a whole bunch more cars being towed to the garage for repairs because they have 15% ethanol in their tanks, I wouldn't think you have to worry about it in your plane.
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WhiskeyVictor36(at)aol.co Guest
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Posted: Wed Nov 03, 2010 6:24 am Post subject: E15 |
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All Kolbers,
Here's a fuel additive the marine people are using to counter Ethanol problems.
STAR TRON - Enzyme Fuel Treatment http://mystarbrite.com/startron/
Might be worth a look see. It's available at Walmart, in the marine department.
Bill Varnes
Original Kolb FireStar
Audubon NJ
In a message dated 11/1/2010 8:01:35 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, jbhart(at)onlyinternet.net writes:
Quote: | --> Kolb-List message posted by: "Jack B. Hart" <jbhart(at)onlyinternet.net>
Kolbers,
Here in Indiana, the Governor is pushing to raise the ethanol in the lowest
priced auto fuel from 10% to 15%. Is anyone using fuel that contains over
10% ethanol in a two cycle engine, and are you experiencing any problems?
Jack B. Hart FF004
Winchester, bsp; (And Get Some AWESOME FREE o find ifts bsp; lder's LP you for ; -Matt Dralle, List e ies ay - MATRONICS WEB FORUMS
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[quote][b]
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Dana
Joined: 13 Dec 2007 Posts: 1047 Location: Connecticut, USA
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Posted: Wed Nov 03, 2010 8:49 am Post subject: E15 |
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At 10:20 AM 11/3/2010, WhiskeyVictor36(at)aol.com wrote:
Quote: | All Kolbers,
Here's a fuel additive the marine people are using to counter Ethanol problems.
STAR TRON - Enzyme Fuel Treatment http://mystarbrite.com/startron/
Might be worth a look see. It's available at Walmart, in the marine department. |
But how does it stack up against Seafoam?
-Dana
--
A government big enough to give you everything you want, is big enough to take away everything you have. --Thomas Jefferson [quote][b]
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russkinne(at)mac.com Guest
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Posted: Wed Nov 03, 2010 2:51 pm Post subject: E15 |
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I think the advantage of SeaFoam is that it glows in the dark & is easier to see --do not archive
Russ
On Nov 3, 2010, at 12:41 PM, Dana Hague wrote:
Quote: | At 10:20 AM 11/3/2010, WhiskeyVictor36(at)aol.com (WhiskeyVictor36(at)aol.com) wrote:
Quote: | All Kolbers,
Here's a fuel additive the marine people are using to counter Ethanol problems.
STAR TRON - Enzyme Fuel Treatment http://mystarbrite.com/startron/
Might be worth a look see. It's available at Walmart, in the marine department. |
But how does it stack up against Seafoam?
-Dana
--
A government big enough to give you everything you want, is big enough to take away everything you have. --Thomas Jefferson Quote: |
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Thom Riddle
Joined: 10 Jan 2006 Posts: 1597 Location: Buffalo, NY, USA (9G0)
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Posted: Thu Nov 04, 2010 4:16 am Post subject: Re: E15 |
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According to the MSDS on StarTron gasoline additive, it is over 95% Naphtha. You've seen this before in many places, for example Coleman Camp Fuel. It is considered an adulterant to gasoline. It is not soluble in water so I am have trouble seeing how it would (per their website)...
"Star Tron breaks down this excess water and sludge to sub-micron size allowing it to be safely burned away during normal engine operation.
Therefore Star Tron prevents phase separation and fuel gelling, eliminating ethanol fuel problems."
My Opinion:
- Buy fresh fuel from a very high traffic retailer.
- Keep your tank full of fresh fuel so there is no airspace above the fuel for moist air to condense into water.
- I doubt that we will be seeing E-15 anytime soon. The recent EPA approval is only the first step in permitting it and there are many powerful entities inside and outside the governement who do NOT want this to happen.
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_________________ Thom Riddle
Buffalo, NY (9G0)
Don't worry about old age... it doesn't last very long.
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John Hauck
Joined: 09 Jan 2006 Posts: 4639 Location: Titus, Alabama (hauck's holler)
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Posted: Thu Nov 04, 2010 7:35 am Post subject: E15 |
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> - Keep your tank full of fresh fuel so there is no airspace above the
fuel for moist air to condense into water.
> --------
Thom R/Gang:
Based on the above, how do you compensate for heat expansion?
I find a little 100LL added to my airplane fuel tank takes care of most
moisture problems, in addition to a home made gascolator. Where I live in
Alabama there is considerable humidity to contend with.
john h
mkIII
Moab, Utah
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_________________ John Hauck
MKIII/912ULS
hauck's holler
Titus, Alabama |
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Thom Riddle
Joined: 10 Jan 2006 Posts: 1597 Location: Buffalo, NY, USA (9G0)
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Posted: Thu Nov 04, 2010 8:22 am Post subject: Re: E15 |
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I meant to minimize the airspace at the top of the tank. I.E., don't leave it half empty. The more airspace there is, the more likely a drop in temperature will result in condensation.
At the risk of inviting criticism I will offer the following, FWIW.
The thermal cooefficient of expansion of gasoline is about 0.00069/°F. For a really bad case scenario example let's assume that when you fuel your Kolb the temperature is at water's freezing point (32F) in on an early desert morning. And then the temp during the day rises to 110F. That is a change of 78F. This means that one gallon of fuel at 32F increases in volume by 78 x .00069 gallons or .05382 gallons, i.e. a bit over 5% in this worst case scenario. In a 10 gallon tank, leaving a smidge over 1/2 gallon of airspace at the top would accommodate this worst case scenario for gasoline expansion with temperature rise of 78F. A 25 gallon tank would require about 1 1/4 gallon of airspace.
However, since there is nothing in most fuel systems to keep the fuel from expanding through the fuel lines to the carburetor(s), even if there was no airspace at all available for thermal expansion, it would simply bleed out the carb as it expanded and evaporate in the free air.
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_________________ Thom Riddle
Buffalo, NY (9G0)
Don't worry about old age... it doesn't last very long.
- Anonymous |
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Dana
Joined: 13 Dec 2007 Posts: 1047 Location: Connecticut, USA
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Posted: Thu Nov 04, 2010 8:55 am Post subject: E15 |
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At 12:22 PM 11/4/2010, Thom Riddle wrote:
Quote: | However, since there is nothing in most fuel systems to keep the fuel from expanding through the fuel lines to the carburetor(s), even if there was no airspace at all available for thermal expansion, it would simply bleed out the carb as it expanded and evaporate in the free air. |
The design of my new metal tank is such that I can't quite fill it to the top, since the filler neck extends slightly down into the tank, so there's always some airspace, perhaps 1/3 gallon. This may have been intentional on the part of the tank builder, I don't know.
The vent at the top of my tank has two spring loaded check valves, and an unvented cap. One lets air into the tank at 1/2 psi for normal running; the other lets air out of the tank at 6psi to a vent tube that runs down to the bottom of the aircraft. I have to turn off the fuel valve going to the engine when I'm done flying or the tank will leak through the carburetor, as the float needle is brass, not rubber.
-Dana
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When authorities warn you of the sinfulness of sex, there is an important lesson to be learned. Do not have sex with the authorities. [quote][b]
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Thom Riddle
Joined: 10 Jan 2006 Posts: 1597 Location: Buffalo, NY, USA (9G0)
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Posted: Thu Nov 04, 2010 9:44 am Post subject: Re: E15 |
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Dana,
Closing the fuel shutoff valve from the tank to the carbs will definitely keep the fuel from migrating to the carbs. Your vent system should accommodate any thermal expansion of the gasoline that the airspace does not.
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_________________ Thom Riddle
Buffalo, NY (9G0)
Don't worry about old age... it doesn't last very long.
- Anonymous |
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Dana
Joined: 13 Dec 2007 Posts: 1047 Location: Connecticut, USA
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Posted: Thu Nov 04, 2010 2:00 pm Post subject: E15 |
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At 01:44 PM 11/4/2010, Thom Riddle wrote:
Quote: | --> Kolb-List message posted by: "Thom Riddle" <riddletr(at)gmail.com>
Dana,
Closing the fuel shutoff valve from the tank to the carbs will definitely keep the fuel from migrating to the carbs. Your vent system should accommodate any thermal expansion of the gasoline that the airspace does not. |
That's the idea...
Just gotta make checking the valve is open a rigid part of my preflight... don't want to end up like Marty Lunsford, that guy in the Quicksilver made famous on youtube when he took off with the fuel valve closed...
-Dana
--
Congress shall make no law....What part of NO didn't you understand? [quote][b]
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