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lmassaro
Joined: 28 Sep 2010
Posts: 13
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 Posted: Sun Nov 14, 2010 9:42 am Post subject: Post Flight Question - Oil? |
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OK, this may sound smart or it may sound dumb.
I am told the primary reason for engine corrosion is the water in the crankcase reacts with the sulfur compounds in the oil to form H2SO4 (i still remember some of my high school chemistry).
Now after a flight I typically open the cowl and do a check of the engine compartment to make sure nothing is amiss. I check the oil (even though the level isn't very readable until the engine cools).
Now, here's the question.
When the oil fill is opened, a fair amount of steam comes out. In fact, it will continue to do so for quite a while. Does this help rid the crankcase of any excess H20 (that would re-condense as the engine cools) or would it normally vent via the air-oil separator anyway post flight?
(or)
Does it not really matter since the crankcase is not "hermetically sealed" and any humidity in the air will eventually work its way into the oil during non flight?
Just the engineer in me coming out...
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teamgrumman(at)yahoo.com
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| Posted: Sun Nov 14, 2010 12:03 pm Post subject: Post Flight Question - Oil? |
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this is the primary reason why you need to have an oil temp in the 190-200 degree range long enough to cook off any moisture. Flights of less than 30 min do little to protect your engine. Starting the engine to get the oil to circulate and coat things is fine if you don't let the engine get warm. Like 2 minutes. Anything that warms up the oil is enough to cause condensation in the crankcase.
From: lmassaro <lmassaro(at)tac-eng.com>
To: teamgrumman-list(at)matronics.com
Sent: Sun, November 14, 2010 9:42:04 AM
Subject: Post Flight Question - Oil?
--> TeamGrumman-List message posted by: "lmassaro" <lmassaro(at)tac-eng.com (lmassaro(at)tac-eng.com)>
OK, this may sound smart or it may sound dumb.
I am told the primary reason for engine corrosion is the water in the crankcase reacts with the sulfur compounds in the oil to form H2SO4 (i still remember some of my high school chemistry).
Now after a flight I typically open the cowl and do a check of the engine compartment to make sure nothing is amiss. I check the oil (even though the level isn't very readable until the engine cools).
Now, here's the question.
When the oil fill is opened, a fair amount of steam comes out. In fact, it will continue to do so for quite a while. Does this help rid the crankcase of any excess H20 (that would re-condense as the engine cools) or would it normally vent via the air-oil separator anyway post flight?
[quote][b]
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lmassaro
Joined: 28 Sep 2010
Posts: 13
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| Posted: Sun Nov 14, 2010 7:36 pm Post subject: Re: Post Flight Question - Oil? |
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I rarely fly less than 45 minutes at a clip for that very reason. Interesting side note...
There is this old beater C152 tied down at my A/P. Never seen it fly, but have seen the owner get in multiple times, start it up, run it for 20 minutes at ~1500 RPM while its tied down.
He thinks he's doing his engine good but in actuality is accelerating is ultimate death. Told him this but he didn't seem to pay much attention to us.
So back to the original question...Given i fly long enough to get the oil hot (assuming 190 at the temp probe is >220 at the heads/etc.), does venting the steam from the filler cap at the end of a flight make any sense?
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pitts_pilot(at)bellsouth.
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| Posted: Sun Nov 14, 2010 8:42 pm Post subject: Post Flight Question - Oil? |
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On 11/14/2010 10:36 PM, lmassaro wrote:
snip
| Quote: | So back to the original question...Given i fly long enough to get the oil hot (assuming 190 at the temp probe is>220 at the heads/etc.), does venting the steam from the filler cap at the end of a flight make any sense?
It does to me. I think it's one of the 'can't hurt' thingys. I open up
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the filler cap and let it vent while I do my post flight chores and then
check the oil level so I can fill (to 6 qts) if needed so I don't get
delayed just prior to my next flight.
Linn
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flyadive(at)gmail.com
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| Posted: Mon Nov 15, 2010 5:54 am Post subject: Post Flight Question - Oil? |
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Hello Im;
If you think about it, why should he pay attention - He is doing what he feels is acceptable. Should the engine sit without doing ANYTHING? I would say that is even worse. Until they come up with nano-bots to travel around inside the engine and report as to REALLY see what is going on you can ONLY do what makes YOU feel good.
As for venting the steam? It would be a SIMPLE test to really say what is in the steam. Get some LITMUS PAPER...
Go flying for say an hour.
Land and Open the Oil Cap and hold the Litmus Paper in the steam.
By doing a comparison with the Litmus Chart you will get an idea of the pH of the steam. If it is just water you have to consider what will happen when the engine cools and what the humidity of the day is. You may draw in more humidity than you just let out.
And what is escaping is ONLY what is in the area of the tube and is light enough to travel up the tube. Do you know what sits ABOVE the height of the pick-up of the tube? The CAM.
The Internet has a very short memory. A short time back I posted a lengthy synopsis of Corrosion & Rust on an engine that sat dissembled for slightly over a year. NO PROTECTION other than a plastic sheet draped over it.
Ya know how much Corrosion and rust was formed after a year?
NONE!
Now someone may say that was because of the oil that was being used. Such as Exxon Elite.
The answer to that is: The plane was a RENTAL... Do you really think FOB's use Exxon Elite on rentals?
Bottom Line: There is NO correct answer. You do what makes YOU feel good and what fits your wallet.
If this fellow had the money he would or have the plane fly.
Barry
YOU ARE NOT
WE ARE
BECAUSE WE WERE
YOU ARE
The words to be inserted are VETERANS’ and FREE
Thank you Veterans.
[quote][b]
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teamgrumman(at)yahoo.com
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| Posted: Mon Nov 15, 2010 1:10 pm Post subject: Post Flight Question - Oil? |
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"does venting the steam from the filler cap at the end of a flight make any sense? " it isn't likely going to have any effect. Odds are you'll be letting cooler air in that holds more water.
From: lmassaro <lmassaro(at)tac-eng.com>
To: teamgrumman-list(at)matronics.com
Sent: Sun, November 14, 2010 7:36:25 PM
Subject: Re: Post Flight Question - Oil?
--> TeamGrumman-List message posted by: "lmassaro" <lmassaro(at)tac-eng.com (lmassaro(at)tac-eng.com)>
I rarely fly less than 45 minutes at a clip for that very reason. Interesting side note...
There is this old beater C152 tied down at my A/P. Never seen it fly, but have seen the owner get in multiple times, start it up, run it for 20 minutes at ~1500 RPM while its tied down.
He thinks he's doing his engine good but in actuality is accelerating is ultimate death. Told him this but he didn't seem to pay much attention to us.
So back to the original question...Given i fly long enough to get the oil hot (assuming 190 at the temp probe is >220 at the heads/etc.), does venting the steam from the filler cap at the end of a flight make any sense?
Read this topic online here:
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amdymond(at)gmail.com
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| Posted: Mon Nov 15, 2010 5:48 pm Post subject: Post Flight Question - Oil? |
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But is it really so bad to run it for 20 minutes?
He gets some moisture into the engine which is bad.
He circulates fresh oil through the engine which is better than letting surfaces go dry.
He circulates fuel through the lines and carb which is good.
On Sun, Nov 14, 2010 at 7:36 PM, lmassaro <lmassaro(at)tac-eng.com (lmassaro(at)tac-eng.com)> wrote:
[quote]--> TeamGrumman-List message posted by: "lmassaro" <lmassaro(at)tac-eng.com (lmassaro(at)tac-eng.com)>
I rarely fly less than 45 minutes at a clip for that very reason. Interesting side note...
There is this old beater C152 tied down at my A/P. Never seen it fly, but have seen the owner get in multiple times, start it up, run it for 20 minutes at ~1500 RPM while its tied down.
He thinks he's doing his engine good but in actuality is accelerating is ultimate death. Told him this but he didn't seem to pay much attention to us.
So back to the original question...Given i fly long enough to get the oil hot (assuming 190 at the temp probe is >220 at the heads/etc.), does venting the steam from the filler cap at the end of a flight make any sense?
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=319369#319369
List Fund Raiser. Click on
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omebuiltHELP www.homebuilthelp.com
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s.com/Navigator?TeamGrumman-List" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?TeamGrumman-List
ronics.com/" target="_blank">http://forums.matronics.com
==============
[b]
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teamgrumman(at)yahoo.com
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| Posted: Mon Nov 15, 2010 6:36 pm Post subject: Post Flight Question - Oil? |
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moisture creates acids that attack the metal.
From: Anthony Dymond <amdymond(at)gmail.com>
To: teamgrumman-list(at)matronics.com
Sent: Mon, November 15, 2010 5:45:48 PM
Subject: Re: Re: Post Flight Question - Oil?
But is it really so bad to run it for 20 minutes?
He gets some moisture into the engine which is bad.
He circulates fresh oil through the engine which is better than letting surfaces go dry.
He circulates fuel through the lines and carb which is good.
On Sun, Nov 14, 2010 at 7:36 PM, lmassaro <lmassaro(at)tac-eng.com (lmassaro(at)tac-eng.com)> wrote:
| Quote: | --> TeamGrumman-List message posted by: "lmassaro" <lmassaro(at)tac-eng.com (lmassaro(at)tac-eng.com)>
I rarely fly less than 45 minutes at a clip for that very reason. Interesting side note...
There is this old beater C152 tied down at my A/P. Never seen it fly, but have seen the owner get in multiple times, start it up, run it for 20 minutes at ~1500 RPM while its tied down.
He thinks he's doing his engine good but in actuality is accelerating is ultimate death. Told him this but he didn't seem to pay much attention to us.
So back to the original question...Given i fly long enough to get the oil hot (assuming 190 at the temp probe is >220 at the heads/etc.), does venting the steam from the filler cap at the end of a flight make any sense?
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=319369#319369
List Fund Raiser. Click on
/" target="_blank">www.aeroelectric.com
omebuiltHELP www.homebuilthelp.com
http://www.matronics.com/contribution
ronics.com/" target="_blank">http://forums.matronics.com
==============
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[quote][b]
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pitts_pilot(at)bellsouth.
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| Posted: Mon Nov 15, 2010 6:40 pm Post subject: Post Flight Question - Oil? |
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On 11/15/2010 8:45 PM, Anthony Dymond wrote: | Quote: | But is it really so bad to run it for 20 minutes?
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Yes it is.
| Quote: | He gets some moisture into the engine which is bad.
|
The byproduct of combustion isn't just moisture, it's also acids, which will dissolve some of the metals that are vital for long engine life. The reason you want an extended engine run at temp is to boil off the acids that accumulate.
| Quote: | He circulates fresh oil through the engine which is better than letting surfaces go dry.
|
This is true. However, the oil drains in between engine runs, leaving the cam and cam followers exposed to the acidic environment. I'm no chemist, but the acidic environment may serve to remove the oil from the cam and cam followers which then leaves them open to rust. The rust .... even small amounts will wear the cam and follower .... and the engine efficiency goes down from there. A cam with no lobes ain't good. I'm not sure why, but when the cam followers deteriorate they get valleys etched in the face that look like filiform corrosion .... and they have sharp edges. Maybe someone else can enlighten us why that is!!!
| Quote: | He circulates fuel through the lines and carb which is good.
|
Again, true. But 100LL doesn't have the varnish problems that mogas does ..... 100LL stays pretty volatile longer.
Linn
[quote]
On Sun, Nov 14, 2010 at 7:36 PM, lmassaro <lmassaro(at)tac-eng.com (lmassaro(at)tac-eng.com)> wrote:
| Quote: | --> TeamGrumman-List message posted by: "lmassaro" <lmassaro(at)tac-eng.com (lmassaro(at)tac-eng.com)>
I rarely fly less than 45 minutes at a clip for that very reason. Interesting side note...
There is this old beater C152 tied down at my A/P. Never seen it fly, but have seen the owner get in multiple times, start it up, run it for 20 minutes at ~1500 RPM while its tied down.
He thinks he's doing his engine good but in actuality is accelerating is ultimate death. Told him this but he didn't seem to pay much attention to us.
So back to the original question...Given i fly long enough to get the oil hot (assuming 190 at the temp probe is >220 at the heads/etc.), does venting the steam from the filler cap at the end of a flight make any sense?
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=319369#319369
List Fund Raiser. Click on
/" target="_blank">www.aeroelectric.com
omebuiltHELP www.homebuilthelp.com
http:/r generous support!
e Matronics List Features Navigator to browse
s.com/Navigator?TeamGrumman-List" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?TeamGrumman-List
ronics.com/" target="_blank">http://forums.matronics.com
==============
|
[b]
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pitts_pilot(at)bellsouth.
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| Posted: Mon Nov 15, 2010 9:14 pm Post subject: Post Flight Question - Oil? |
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On 11/15/2010 11:47 PM, Anthony Dymond wrote: | Quote: | Thanks, this makes sense. Good reason to change the oil often.
If you were putting a plane up for the winter would the procedure be to change the oil and run it just enough to circulate the oil? Doesn't water also get into the fuel through condensation? This is an issue, particularly in a boat where a fuel stabilizer is often used.
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Lycoming has a service letter http://www.lycoming.textron.com/support/publications/service-letters/pdfs/SL180B.pdf which spells out what to do for long term storage.
Linn
[quote]
On Mon, Nov 15, 2010 at 6:37 PM, Linn Walters <pitts_pilot(at)bellsouth.net (pitts_pilot(at)bellsouth.net)> wrote:
| Quote: | On 11/15/2010 8:45 PM, Anthony Dymond wrote: | Quote: | But is it really so bad to run it for 20 minutes?
|
Yes it is.
| Quote: | He gets some moisture into the engine which is bad.
|
The byproduct of combustion isn't just moisture, it's also acids, which will dissolve some of the metals that are vital for long engine life. The reason you want an extended engine run at temp is to boil off the acids that accumulate.
| Quote: | He circulates fresh oil through the engine which is better than letting surfaces go dry.
|
This is true. However, the oil drains in between engine runs, leaving the cam and cam followers exposed to the acidic environment. I'm no chemist, but the acidic environment may serve to remove the oil from the cam and cam followers which then leaves them open to rust. The rust .... even small amounts will wear the cam and follower .... and the engine efficiency goes down from there. A cam with no lobes ain't good. I'm not sure why, but when the cam followers deteriorate they get valleys etched in the face that look like filiform corrosion .... and they have sharp edges. Maybe someone else can enlighten us why that is!!!
| Quote: | He circulates fuel through the lines and carb which is good.
|
Again, true. But 100LL doesn't have the varnish problems that mogas does ..... 100LL stays pretty volatile longer.
Linn
| Quote: |
On Sun, Nov 14, 2010 at 7:36 PM, lmassaro <lmassaro(at)tac-eng.com (lmassaro(at)tac-eng.com)> wrote:
| Quote: | --> TeamGrumman-List message posted by: "lmassaro" <lmassaro(at)tac-eng.com (lmassaro(at)tac-eng.com)>
I rarely fly less than 45 minutes at a clip for that very reason. Interesting side note...
There is this old beater C152 tied down at my A/P. Never seen it fly, but have seen the owner get in multiple times, start it up, run it for 20 minutes at ~1500 RPM while its tied down.
He thinks he's doing his engine good but in actuality is accelerating is ultimate death. Told him this but he didn't seem to pay much attention to us.
So back to the original question...Given i fly long enough to get the oil hot (assuming 190 at the temp probe is >220 at the heads/etc.), does venting the steam from the filler cap at the end of a flight make any sense?
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=319369#319369
List Fund Raiser. Click on
/" target="_blank">www.aeroelectric.com
omebuiltHELP www.homebuilthelp.com
http:/r generous support!
e Matronics List Features Navigator to browse
s.com/Navigator?TeamGrumman-List" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?TeamGrumman-List
ronics.com/" target="_blank">http://forums.matronics.com
==============
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