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info(at)flylightning.net
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 Posted: Mon Nov 22, 2010 3:01 pm Post subject: Thoughts on Mogas and it's use in the Lightning |
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Group,
Recently I have been doing a good bit of research and study on Auto fuel with ethanol. This comes from some problems with the Kreem fuel tank sealant we had used in earlier airframes.
We have recently become aware of 2 tanks which are having sealant issues due to other than a manufacturing defect. They are both related to the use of auto fuel. In no cases have any issues with 100LL and kreem been noted. 1 of the tanks has been using auto fuel with ethanol, the other auto fuel from a known source with no ethanol added. In both cases the sealant appears to be deteriorating. Having said that, we were very careful in the selection of the product being used, Kreem. This was advertised to be safe with methanol, ethanol, and gasohol, all of which are one form or another of an alcohol blend.
After searching on other internet groups like this one, specifically other aircraft types with fiberglass tanks that are sealed, I believe that there is more to the issue than just the ethanol. Other types of aircraft with similar tank designs have been exhibiting the same problems that these 2 tanks have. Those aircraft are in some cases using the Kreem, and in others a different type of sealer. One case with personal experience is a jabiru here in the hanger with tank sealer problems, that aircraft and its tanks were built overseas with a different sealer. There has been much discussion of other additives used for the increasingly strict emission requirements imposed by the EPA. Also about seasonal blends that are typically harsher in the winter months than summer.
On a completely unrelated issue to fuel tank sealant, but involving the use of auto fuel. An engine had to have its complete intake system including heads rebuilt due to a varnished like substance which gummed up all valves and coated the intake pipes. This aircraft was using auto fuel with no ethanol but was from a trusted source and was not old, no reasonable explanation for this to occur.
We have switched to, some time ago, a different type of sealant in an effort to be proactive about the Kreem product, however it seems to be clear that the problem was not the kreem but the auto fuel it self and additives in it. The sealant now being used is called KBS coating systems. IT unlike the kreem chemically bonds to the tanks instead of an elastomer like skin. If any one would like know the serial numbers we can provide about when the change took place, however it is easy enough to tell be looking in the tank. If your tanks are white, its Kreem, if they are silver is the KBS system.
Just to recap, there has been no issues or problems at all with the use of 100ll in the Kreem sealed tanks, only those using auto fuel. And in no cases have we had or heard of any issues with either fuels in the KBS sealed tanks.
I would strongly recommend the discontinued use of auto fuel in the Lightning tanks until we can further understand just exactly what is going on. I know that there are many out there who prefer the use of auto fuel for its cost but until we are, and I am, satisfied with answers about what is possibly going on in Auto fuel than I would have to say don’t use it.
Nick Otterback
Arion Aircraft, LLC
[quote][b]
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sttwig
Joined: 26 Aug 2007
Posts: 31
Location: Yakima, WA
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| Posted: Mon Nov 22, 2010 8:06 pm Post subject: Thoughts on Mogas and it's use in the Lightning |
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Nick,
Would it be possible to put the KBS product on top of the Kreem? If there has never been any fuel in the tanks would it bond to the Kreem and protect it from the auto fuel?
Thanks,
Steve Sundquist
Kit #48
On 11/22/2010 2:58 PM, flylightning wrote: [quote]
Group,
Recently I have been doing a good bit of research and study on Auto fuel with ethanol. This comes from some problems with the Kreem fuel tank sealant we had used in earlier airframes.
We have recently become aware of 2 tanks which are having sealant issues due to other than a manufacturing defect. They are both related to the use of auto fuel. In no cases have any issues with 100LL and kreem been noted. 1 of the tanks has been using auto fuel with ethanol, the other auto fuel from a known source with no ethanol added. In both cases the sealant appears to be deteriorating. Having said that, we were very careful in the selection of the product being used, Kreem. This was advertised to be safe with methanol, ethanol, and gasohol, all of which are one form or another of an alcohol blend.
After searching on other internet groups like this one, specifically other aircraft types with fiberglass tanks that are sealed, I believe that there is more to the issue than just the ethanol. Other types of aircraft with similar tank designs have been exhibiting the same problems that these 2 tanks have. Those aircraft are in some cases using the Kreem, and in others a different type of sealer. One case with personal experience is a jabiru here in the hanger with tank sealer problems, that aircraft and its tanks were built overseas with a different sealer. There has been much discussion of other additives used for the increasingly strict emission requirements imposed by the EPA. Also about seasonal blends that are typically harsher in the winter months than summer.
On a completely unrelated issue to fuel tank sealant, but involving the use of auto fuel. An engine had to have its complete intake system including heads rebuilt due to a varnished like substance which gummed up all valves and coated the intake pipes. This aircraft was using auto fuel with no ethanol but was from a trusted source and was not old, no reasonable explanation for this to occur.
We have switched to, some time ago, a different type of sealant in an effort to be proactive about the Kreem product, however it seems to be clear that the problem was not the kreem but the auto fuel it self and additives in it. The sealant now being used is called KBS coating systems. IT unlike the kreem chemically bonds to the tanks instead of an elastomer like skin. If any one would like know the serial numbers we can provide about when the change took place, however it is easy enough to tell be looking in the tank. If your tanks are white, its Kreem, if they are silver is the KBS system.
Just to recap, there has been no issues or problems at all with the use of 100ll in the Kreem sealed tanks, only those using auto fuel. And in no cases have we had or heard of any issues with either fuels in the KBS sealed tanks.
I would strongly recommend the discontinued use of auto fuel in the Lightning tanks until we can further understand just exactly what is going on. I know that there are many out there who prefer the use of auto fuel for its cost but until we are, and I am, satisfied with answers about what is possibly going on in Auto fuel than I would have to say don’t use it.
Nick Otterback
Arion Aircraft, LLC
[b]
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info(at)flylightning.net
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| Posted: Tue Nov 23, 2010 6:03 am Post subject: Thoughts on Mogas and it's use in the Lightning |
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I don’t think it will bond to the Kreem. IF you are in the building stages and have not painted it would be simple enough to strip the kreem liner and seal with KBS.
Nick
From: owner-lightning-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-lightning-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Steve Sundquist
Sent: Monday, November 22, 2010 10:03 PM
To: lightning-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: Re: Lightning-List: Thoughts on Mogas and it's use in the Lightning
Nick,
Would it be possible to put the KBS product on top of the Kreem? If there has never been any fuel in the tanks would it bond to the Kreem and protect it from the auto fuel?
Thanks,
Steve Sundquist
Kit #48
On 11/22/2010 2:58 PM, flylightning wrote:
Group,
Recently I have been doing a good bit of research and study on Auto fuel with ethanol. This comes from some problems with the Kreem fuel tank sealant we had used in earlier airframes.
We have recently become aware of 2 tanks which are having sealant issues due to other than a manufacturing defect. They are both related to the use of auto fuel. In no cases have any issues with 100LL and kreem been noted. 1 of the tanks has been using auto fuel with ethanol, the other auto fuel from a known source with no ethanol added. In both cases the sealant appears to be deteriorating. Having said that, we were very careful in the selection of the product being used, Kreem. This was advertised to be safe with methanol, ethanol, and gasohol, all of which are one form or another of an alcohol blend.
After searching on other internet groups like this one, specifically other aircraft types with fiberglass tanks that are sealed, I believe that there is more to the issue than just the ethanol. Other types of aircraft with similar tank designs have been exhibiting the same problems that these 2 tanks have. Those aircraft are in some cases using the Kreem, and in others a different type of sealer. One case with personal experience is a jabiru here in the hanger with tank sealer problems, that aircraft and its tanks were built overseas with a different sealer. There has been much discussion of other additives used for the increasingly strict emission requirements imposed by the EPA. Also about seasonal blends that are typically harsher in the winter months than summer.
On a completely unrelated issue to fuel tank sealant, but involving the use of auto fuel. An engine had to have its complete intake system including heads rebuilt due to a varnished like substance which gummed up all valves and coated the intake pipes. This aircraft was using auto fuel with no ethanol but was from a trusted source and was not old, no reasonable explanation for this to occur.
We have switched to, some time ago, a different type of sealant in an effort to be proactive about the Kreem product, however it seems to be clear that the problem was not the kreem but the auto fuel it self and additives in it. The sealant now being used is called KBS coating systems. IT unlike the kreem chemically bonds to the tanks instead of an elastomer like skin. If any one would like know the serial numbers we can provide about when the change took place, however it is easy enough to tell be looking in the tank. If your tanks are white, its Kreem, if they are silver is the KBS system.
Just to recap, there has been no issues or problems at all with the use of 100ll in the Kreem sealed tanks, only those using auto fuel. And in no cases have we had or heard of any issues with either fuels in the KBS sealed tanks.
I would strongly recommend the discontinued use of auto fuel in the Lightning tanks until we can further understand just exactly what is going on. I know that there are many out there who prefer the use of auto fuel for its cost but until we are, and I am, satisfied with answers about what is possibly going on in Auto fuel than I would have to say don’t use it.
Nick Otterback
Arion Aircraft, LLC
012345678901234567890
[quote][b]
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N1BZRich(at)AOL.COM
Guest
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| Posted: Tue Nov 23, 2010 7:58 am Post subject: Thoughts on Mogas and it's use in the Lightning |
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Steve,
The gist of Nick's post on Mogas as I read it, is that they don't recommend you use auto fuel. And I totally agree. The small cost savings is just not worth the other potential problems in my book. Auto gas with ethanol has really been a big problem for the boat industry. Almost all of the boats with glass tanks, regardless of how the tanks were sealed have had problems - just like Nick was talking about. And if you can get auto gas without ethanol, there are other considerations to think about. I guess the main one is that it tends to start to go bad pretty quick and will leave really bad deposits in your tank, fuel lines, carb, etc. Aviation gas had additives to prevent that. Another consideration is that auto gas does not have the additive to prevent problems as you go to altitude (fuel vapor problems, etc.). Granted, you are probably OK to 5 or 6 thousand feet, but above that you might start to have vapor lock, or other problems. If you live at a high altitude - maybe Colorado - the auto fuel probably does have some sort of additive to help with that situation, but for us low country people, it is a potential problem.
My bottom line is that I only use aviation gas in my airplanes. Sure, even the 100LL has too much lead for the low compression engines (particularly my Cub) but I would rather clean the plugs and change the oil more often than to worry about the many more negatives with auto fuel. Another problem I have heard of is that some people think they are buying auto fuel without ethanol, but some have found ethanol in some batches even though they were told it was ethanol free. So if you are going to take the chance, get one of the alcohol test kits from the EAA.
Just my $0.02 worth.
Blue Skies,
Buz
In a message dated 11/23/2010 9:03:45 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, info(at)flylightning.net writes:
| Quote: |
I don’t think it will bond to the Kreem. IF you are in the building stages and have not painted it would be simple enough to strip the kreem liner and seal with KBS.
Nick
From: owner-lightning-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-lightning-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Steve Sundquist
Sent: Monday, November 22, 2010 10:03 PM
To: lightning-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: Re: Thoughts on Mogas and it's use in the Lightning
Nick,
Would it be possible to put the KBS product on top of the Kreem? If there has never been any fuel in the tanks would it bond to the Kreem and protect it from the auto fuel?
Thanks,
Steve Sundquist
Kit #48
On 11/22/2010 2:58 PM, flylightning wrote:
Group,
Recently I have been doing a good bit of research and study on Auto fuel with ethanol. This comes from some problems with the Kreem fuel tank sealant we had used in earlier airframes.
We have recently become aware of 2 tanks which are having sealant issues due to other than a manufacturing defect. They are both related to the use of auto fuel. In no cases have any issues with 100LL and kreem been noted. 1 of the tanks has been using auto fuel with ethanol, the other auto fuel from a known source with no ethanol added. In both cases the sealant appears to be deteriorating. Having said that, we were very careful in the selection of the product being used, Kreem. This was advertised to be safe with methanol, ethanol, and gasohol, all of which are one form or another of an alcohol blend.
After searching on other internet groups like this one, specifically other aircraft types with fiberglass tanks that are sealed, I believe that there is more to the issue than just the ethanol. Other types of aircraft with similar tank designs have been exhibiting the same problems that these 2 tanks have. Those aircraft are in some cases using the Kreem, and in others a different type of sealer. One case with personal experience is a jabiru here in the hanger with tank sealer problems, that aircraft and its tanks were built overseas with a different sealer. There has been much discussion of other additives used for the increasingly strict emission requirements imposed by the EPA. Also about seasonal blends that are typically harsher in the winter months than summer.
On a completely unrelated issue to fuel tank sealant, but involving the use of auto fuel. An engine had to have its complete intake system including heads rebuilt due to a varnished like substance which gummed up all valves and coated the intake pipes. This aircraft was using auto fuel with no ethanol but was from a trusted source and was not old, no reasonable explanation for this to occur.
We have switched to, some time ago, a different type of sealant in an effort to be proactive about the Kreem product, however it seems to be clear that the problem was not the kreem but the auto fuel it self and additives in it. The sealant now being used is called KBS coating systems. IT unlike the kreem chemically bonds to the tanks instead of an elastomer like skin. If any one would like know the serial numbers we can provide about when the change took place, however it is easy enough to tell be looking in the tank. If your tanks are white, its Kreem, if they are silver is the KBS system.
Just to recap, there has been no issues or problems at all with the use of 100ll in the Kreem sealed tanks, only those using auto fuel. And in no cases have we had or heard of any issues with either fuels in the KBS sealed tanks.
I would strongly recommend the discontinued use of auto fuel in the Lightning tanks until we can further understand just exactly what is going on. I know that there are many out there who prefer the use of auto fuel for its cost but until we are, and I am, satisfied with answers about what is possibly going on in Auto fuel than I would have to say don’t use it.
Nick Otterback
Arion Aircraft, LLC
| Quote: | | www.buildersbooks.com |
0123456789
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[quote][b]
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http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Lightning-List |
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dashvii(at)hotmail.com
Guest
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| Posted: Wed Nov 24, 2010 1:00 pm Post subject: Thoughts on Mogas and it's use in the Lightning |
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There's actually a very good article on this very subject right now at www.bydanjohnson.com about halfway down the page. Dan is a longtime light aircraft enthusiast and friend to the group at Shelbyville. I had the pleasure of meeting him on an airshow outing with Pete a few years back after his accident in the radical CZAW Parrot. He is a very nice gentleman and I'd recommend his website to LSA enthusiasts. It is a good resource to know what is going on in the larger LSA community. Although an excellent starting resource it is important to note that this is still one man's opinion and you should try your own demo flights to make an informed decision as to what fits you. Thanks, Brian W
Sent from my iPhone
On Nov 23, 2010, at 9:53 AM, N1BZRich(at)AOL.COM (N1BZRich(at)AOL.COM) wrote:
[quote] Steve,
The gist of Nick's post on Mogas as I read it, is that they don't recommend you use auto fuel. And I totally agree. The small cost savings is just not worth the other potential problems in my book. Auto gas with ethanol has really been a big problem for the boat industry. Almost all of the boats with glass tanks, regardless of how the tanks were sealed have had problems - just like Nick was talking about. And if you can get auto gas without ethanol, there are other considerations to think about. I guess the main one is that it tends to start to go bad pretty quick and will leave really bad deposits in your tank, fuel lines, carb, etc. Aviation gas had additives to prevent that. Another consideration is that auto gas does not have the additive to prevent problems as you go to altitude (fuel vapor problems, etc.). Granted, you are probably OK to 5 or 6 thousand feet, but above that you might start to have vapor lock, or other problems. If you live at a high altitude - maybe Colorado - the auto fuel probably does have some sort of additive to help with that situation, but for us low country people, it is a potential problem.
My bottom line is that I only use aviation gas in my airplanes. Sure, even the 100LL has too much lead for the low compression engines (particularly my Cub) but I would rather clean the plugs and change the oil more often than to worry about the many more negatives with auto fuel. Another problem I have heard of is that some people think they are buying auto fuel without ethanol, but some have found ethanol in some batches even though they were told it was ethanol free. So if you are going to take the chance, get one of the alcohol test kits from the EAA.
Just my $0.02 worth.
Blue Skies,
Buz
In a message dated 11/23/2010 9:03:45 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, info(at)flylightning.net (info(at)flylightning.net) writes:
| Quote: |
I don’t think it will bond to the Kreem. IF you are in the building stages and have not painted it would be simple enough to strip the kreem liner and seal with KBS.
Nick
From: owner-lightning-list-server(at)matronics.com (owner-lightning-list-server(at)matronics.com) [mailto:owner-lightning-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Steve Sundquist
Sent: Monday, November 22, 2010 10:03 PM
To: [url=mailto:lightning-list(at)matronics.com]lightning-list(at)matronics.com (lightning-list(at)matronics.com)[/url]
Subject: Re: Thoughts on Mogas and it's use in the Lightning
Nick,
Would it be possible to put the KBS product on top of the Kreem? If there has never been any fuel in the tanks would it bond to the Kreem and protect it from the auto fuel?
Thanks,
Steve Sundquist
Kit #48
On 11/22/2010 2:58 PM, flylightning wrote:
Group,
Recently I have been doing a good bit of research and study on Auto fuel with ethanol. This comes from some problems with the Kreem fuel tank sealant we had used in earlier airframes.
We have recently become aware of 2 tanks which are having sealant issues due to other than a manufacturing defect. They are both related to the use of auto fuel. In no cases have any issues with 100LL and kreem been noted. 1 of the tanks has been using auto fuel with ethanol, the other auto fuel from a known source with no ethanol added. In both cases the sealant appears to be deteriorating. Having said that, we were very careful in the selection of the product being used, Kreem. This was advertised to be safe with methanol, ethanol, and gasohol, all of which are one form or another of an alcohol blend.
After searching on other internet groups like this one, specifically other aircraft types with fiberglass tanks that are sealed, I believe that there is more to the issue than just the ethanol. Other types of aircraft with similar tank designs have been exhibiting the same problems that these 2 tanks have. Those aircraft are in some cases using the Kreem, and in others a different type of sealer. One case with personal experience is a jabiru here in the hanger with tank sealer problems, that aircraft and its tanks were built overseas with a different sealer. There has been much discussion of other additives used for the increasingly strict emission requirements imposed by the EPA. Also about seasonal blends that are typically harsher in the winter months than summer.
On a completely unrelated issue to fuel tank sealant, but involving the use of auto fuel. An engine had to have its complete intake system including heads rebuilt due to a varnished like substance which gummed up all valves and coated the intake pipes. This aircraft was using auto fuel with no ethanol but was from a trusted source and was not old, no reasonable explanation for this to occur.
We have switched to, some time ago, a different type of sealant in an effort to be proactive about the Kreem product, however it seems to be clear that the problem was not the kreem but the auto fuel it self and additives in it. The sealant now being used is called KBS coating systems. IT unlike the kreem chemically bonds to the tanks instead of an elastomer like skin. If any one would like know the serial numbers we can provide about when the change took place, however it is easy enough to tell be looking in the tank. If your tanks are white, its Kreem, if they are silver is the KBS system.
Just to recap, there has been no issues or problems at all with the use of 100ll in the Kreem sealed tanks, only those using auto fuel. And in no cases have we had or heard of any issues with either fuels in the KBS sealed tanks.
I would strongly recommend the discontinued use of auto fuel in the Lightning tanks until we can further understand just exactly what is going on. I know that there are many out there who prefer the use of auto fuel for its cost but until we are, and I am, satisfied with answers about what is possibly going on in Auto fuel than I would have to say don’t use it.
Nick Otterback
Arion Aircraft, LLC
012345678
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[b]
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selwyn
Joined: 12 Mar 2008
Posts: 102
Location: Australia
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| Posted: Thu Nov 25, 2010 1:07 am Post subject: Re: Thoughts on Mogas and it's use in the Lightning |
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Jabiru's thoughts on MOGAS are also worth a read in relation to engine characteristics, quality control and general issues. Not much on this specific sealant issue but some good stuff all the same. Will be mainly referring to unleaded MOGAS in Australia but I don't know that this has any basic differences to MOGAS in other countries. There will be lots of detail differences but that's a large part of the problem.
The link is http://www.jabiru.net.au/ then go to Service Bulletins / Engine Service Bulletins / JSB 007-3 Alcohol Lead Compression Ratio Fuel Guidance
Personally, I agree with Buz, I'm sticking with AVGAS, although when you get to the remoter areas of this country it is becoming harder and harder to find.
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Cheers, Selwyn
Kit 66 VH-ELZ |
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