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quinn_tom(at)tqiinc.com
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 Posted: Sun Nov 28, 2010 12:49 am Post subject: Pilot's Left Brake Problem |
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The left brake on the pilot’s side is almost nonexistent. You step on the left pedal and nothing, the co-pilot side is fine so that tells me that the pads are probably okay. I know the Tiger has independent master cylinders and I’m not sure if the fluid is low or if there is air in the system (not sure how that would happen). I had the same problem a year or so ago but it was the right pedal. I had the A&P look at it and they replaced EVERYTHING to try and fix it until they screamed uncle and had the guy with Grumman experience across the ramp come over and take a look at it. Any ideas?
Tom Quinn
249RR
[quote][b]
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allenc3(at)bellsouth.net
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| Posted: Sun Nov 28, 2010 1:29 am Post subject: Pilot's Left Brake Problem |
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Common problem. When brake hydraulic fluid gets low, pilot side is 1st to go. Needs to be bled on pilot side. Then you need to find out why it's low........ Leak?
Claude Allen
Sent from my iPad
On Nov 28, 2010, at 3:46 AM, "Tom Quinn" <quinn_tom(at)tqiinc.com (quinn_tom(at)tqiinc.com)> wrote:
[quote]
The left brake on the pilot’s side is almost nonexistent. You step on the left pedal and nothing, the co-pilot side is fine so that tells me that the pads are probably okay. I know the Tiger has independent master cylinders and I’m not sure if the fluid is low or if there is air in the system (not sure how that would happen). I had the same problem a year or so ago but it was the right pedal. I had the A&P look at it and they replaced EVERYTHING to try and fix it until they screamed uncle and had the guy with Grumman experience across the ramp come over and take a look at it. Any ideas?
Tom Quinn
249RR
[b]
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flyv35b(at)minetfiber.com
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| Posted: Sun Nov 28, 2010 8:37 am Post subject: Pilot's Left Brake Problem |
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Absolutely. If the pilot side doesn't work and the copilot's side does then the fluid in the pilot side master cylinder is low, BUT the system integrity is generally OK. As the linings wear the piston moves outward and displaces more fluid and the fluid level gradually drops. But there may be a leak that accelerates this. Most of the brakes still have the original calipers and there is corrosion pitting in the bore and as the O-ring moves outward it may get to an area that is pitted and start seeping. Also, brake lines tend to crack at the B-nut at the caliper and even completely brake off (I know from first hand experience about this when landing at a one-way dirt strip with no go around). Also, copilot master cylinders tend to seep around the shaft seal at the top. Brake fluid level should be checked at the annual inspection and fluid added (pumped up from the bottom).
Cliff
[quote] ---
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flyadive(at)gmail.com
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| Posted: Sun Nov 28, 2010 9:43 am Post subject: Pilot's Left Brake Problem |
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REALLY?
Every Part Tom?
BRAKE DIAGNOSTICS
1 - Find which side is bad?
You already did - Pilot side left brake.
2 - Inspect the thickness of the brake pad.
You already did - You SAY it is OK.... Really... Did you see the low limit
marks?
3 - While you are on the ground LQQK at the PINS that the brake pad slide
on.
Are they smooth and clean? If not the pads could be getting cocked on an
angle and not sliding.
Clean them with RED ScotchBrite and rub on some GRAPHITE
or MOLYBDENUM DISULFIDE <-- DRY LUBE.
This helps them slide.
4 - BLEED the brakes from the Bottom - UP
I know you do not have the special No-Spill & Bleed fitting for the Master
Cylinders.
$7.00 a set with instructions plus shipping - Co$t $8.50
5 - ANY LEAKS?
6 - Now - if you bled the brakes and they work from the Co-Pilot side but
not from the Pilot Side...
Guess what... The problem is in the cylinder that is failing.
YES - You can rebuild it - BUT - More then likely it is a BENT PISTON SHAFT
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quinn_tom(at)tqiinc.com
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| Posted: Sun Nov 28, 2010 9:50 am Post subject: Pilot's Left Brake Problem |
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It’s about time for the annual anyway. I know it’s a pain to get in under there to check the brake fluid level. I’ll get someone else to do it as I’m getting way to old to contort my body in that fashion. I can just see it now after they open my hanger for 3 months nonpayment to find a dead guy upside down on the pilots side!
Tom Quinn
President
<![endif]--><![if !vml]>[img]cid:image001.png(at)01CB8EFA.7C94B600[/img]<![endif]>TQI Solutions
A SDVOSB Corporation
Tel (757) 204-4618
Cell (757) 573-6818
Fax (757) 204-4628
quinn_tom(at)tqiinc.com (quinn_tom(at)tqiinc.com)
www.tqiinc.com
From: owner-teamgrumman-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-teamgrumman-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of flyv35b
Sent: Sunday, November 28, 2010 11:35 AM
To: teamgrumman-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: Re: Pilot's Left Brake Problem
Absolutely. If the pilot side doesn't work and the copilot's side does then the fluid in the pilot side master cylinder is low, BUT the system integrity is generally OK. As the linings wear the piston moves outward and displaces more fluid and the fluid level gradually drops. But there may be a leak that accelerates this. Most of the brakes still have the original calipers and there is corrosion pitting in the bore and as the O-ring moves outward it may get to an area that is pitted and start seeping. Also, brake lines tend to crack at the B-nut at the caliper and even completely brake off (I know from first hand experience about this when landing at a one-way dirt strip with no go around). Also, copilot master cylinders tend to seep around the shaft seal at the top. Brake fluid level should be checked at the annual inspection and fluid added (pumped up from the bottom).
Cliff
| Quote: |
----- Original Message -----
From: allenc3(at)bellsouth.net (allenc3(at)bellsouth.net)
To: teamgrumman-list(at)matronics.com (teamgrumman-list(at)matronics.com)
Sent: Sunday, November 28, 2010 1:27 AM
Subject: Re: Pilot's Left Brake Problem
Common problem. When brake hydraulic fluid gets low, pilot side is 1st to go. Needs to be bled on pilot side. Then you need to find out why it's low........ Leak?
Claude Allen
Sent from my iPad
On Nov 28, 2010, at 3:46 AM, "Tom Quinn" <quinn_tom(at)tqiinc.com (quinn_tom(at)tqiinc.com)> wrote:
| Quote: |
The left brake on the pilot’s side is almost nonexistent. You step on the left pedal and nothing, the co-pilot side is fine so that tells me that the pads are probably okay. I know the Tiger has independent master cylinders and I’m not sure if the fluid is low or if there is air in the system (not sure how that would happen). I had the same problem a year or so ago but it was the right pedal. I had the A&P look at it and they replaced EVERYTHING to try and fix it until they screamed uncle and had the guy with Grumman experience across the ramp come over and take a look at it. Any ideas?
Tom Quinn
249RR
| Quote: | | ==========http://www.aeroelectric.com">www.aeroelectric.com>www.buildersbooks.com"http://www.homebuilthelp.com">www.homebuilthelp.comhttp://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/contribution==========t">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?TeamGrumman-List========== |
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2345678 |
90123456789 | Quote: | | http://www.aeroelectric.com">www.aeroelectric.com |
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3 | Quote: | | http://www.aeroelectric.com">www.aeroelectric.com |
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5 | Quote: | | http://www.aeroelectric.com">www.aeroelectric.com |
6 | Quote: | | http://www.aeroelectric.com">www.aeroelectric.com |
7 | Quote: | | http://www.aeroelectric.com">www.aeroelectric.com |
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quinn_tom(at)tqiinc.com
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| Posted: Sun Nov 28, 2010 10:03 am Post subject: Pilot's Left Brake Problem |
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Barry,
Good point, I should have been clearer. They replaced the pads and bled the brakes over and over again. The Guy with the Grumman experience came over took off with it and it worked fine after that. Yesterday I had another pilot in the right seat and when we taxied I had no left brake and I asked him to stomp on it. His side worked so well it almost launched me through the windshield. I have a feeling I have a slow leak somewhere. It’s interesting that the right pilot side had the same problem a year and a half ago. Thanks for the very detailed response below. I may tell the A&P just to replace the master cylinder and be done with it.
Tom Quinn
249RR
<![endif]--><![if !vml]>[img]cid:image001.png(at)01CB8EFB.15836820[/img]<![endif]>From: owner-teamgrumman-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-teamgrumman-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of FLYaDIVE
Sent: Sunday, November 28, 2010 12:40 PM
To: teamgrumman-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: Re: Pilot's Left Brake Problem
REALLY?
Every Part Tom?
BRAKE DIAGNOSTICS
1 - Find which side is bad?
You already did - Pilot side left brake.
2 - Inspect the thickness of the brake pad.
You already did - You SAY it is OK.... Really... Did you see the low limit marks?
3 - While you are on the ground LQQK at the PINS that the brake pad slide on.
Are they smooth and clean? If not the pads could be getting cocked on an angle and not sliding.
Clean them with RED ScotchBrite and rub on some GRAPHITE or MOLYBDENUM DISULFIDE <-- DRY LUBE.
This helps them slide.
4 - BLEED the brakes from the Bottom - UP
I know you do not have the special No-Spill & Bleed fitting for the Master Cylinders.
$7.00 a set with instructions plus shipping - Co$t $8.50
5 - ANY LEAKS?
6 - Now - if you bled the brakes and they work from the Co-Pilot side but not from the Pilot Side...
Guess what... The problem is in the cylinder that is failing.
YES - You can rebuild it - BUT - More then likely it is a BENT PISTON SHAFT. That is difficult to see.
You will need a flat surface like a glass plate or a 'Surface Plate', to roll the shaft on to see the bend. It does not take much. It might be quicker to purchase a NEW Piston Shaft or a new Master Cylinder.
7 - Of course you said you replaced everything - 'O' rings - In the Master Cylinder and on the Caliper Piston.
Did you clean EVERYTHING? A single hair across an 'O' ring will cause problems.
8 - Now for some really CRAZY type problems:
Check the brake lines at all the bends. Especially by the but going to the caliper. I had a CRAZY problem where ALL the preflight testing in the world did NOT show a crack. BUT, there was a very tinny small crack in the line that opened with TEMPERATURE and pressure. There were NO LEAKS... VISIBLE. Is showed one summer day when the owner did a landing and hit the brakes. SMOKE was coming from the wheel. It LQQKed like the tire was smoking but it was brake fluid spraying in a fine mist on the brake rotor. Purchased NEW brake line fittings and a hunk of brake line - REPLACE about 16" and problem was no more.
9 - Next CRAZY:
Take ALL the above information and apply it to the FITTING that screws into the caliper.
YES - Cheap fix - REPLACE the Fitting.
10 - Next CRAZY:
Once again take ALL the information from #8 and apply it to the caliper itself. They are ONLY a cast item and over tightening the Caliper Fitting into the pipe thread hole can crack the caliper.
Remember Gary's crack? NO don't remember Gary's... Remember the crack in the caliper Gary had?
11 - The LAST thing on the replacement list is to replace the Master Cylinder Assembly - This may be cheaper than purchasing the parts and A&P time to rebuild the old.
That all for now... GOOD LUCK.
Barry
On Sun, Nov 28, 2010 at 3:46 AM, Tom Quinn <quinn_tom(at)tqiinc.com (quinn_tom(at)tqiinc.com)> wrote:
The left brake on the pilot’s side is almost nonexistent. You step on the left pedal and nothing, the co-pilot side is fine so that tells me that the pads are probably okay. I know the Tiger has independent master cylinders and I’m not sure if the fluid is low or if there is air in the system (not sure how that would happen). I had the same problem a year or so ago but it was the right pedal. I had the A&P look at it and they replaced EVERYTHING to try and fix it until they screamed uncle and had the guy with Grumman experience across the ramp come over and take a look at it. Any ideas?
Tom Quinn
249RR
| Quote: | | _blank">www.aeroelectric.com.com" target="_blank">www.buildersbooks.com="_blank">www.homebuilthelp.com_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contributionst" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?TeamGrumman-Listtp://forums.matronics.com |
0123456789 | Quote: | | _blank">www.aeroelectric.com |
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1 | Quote: | | _blank">www.aeroelectric.com |
2 | Quote: | | _blank">www.aeroelectric.com |
3 | Quote: | | _blank">www.aeroelectric.com |
4 | Quote: | | _blank">www.aeroelectric.com |
5 | Quote: | | _blank">www.aeroelectric.com |
6 | Quote: | | _blank">www.aeroelectric.com |
7 | Quote: | | _blank">www.aeroelectric.com |
8 | Quote: | | _blank">www.aeroelectric.com |
9 | Quote: | | .com" target="_blank">www.buildersbooks.com |
0 | Quote: | | .com" target="_blank">www.buildersbooks.com |
1 | Quote: | | .com" target="_blank">www.buildersbooks.com |
2 | Quote: | | .com" target="_blank">www.buildersbooks.com |
3 | Quote: | | .com" target="_blank">www.buildersbooks.com |
4 | Quote: | | .com" target="_blank">www.buildersbooks.com |
5 | Quote: | | .com" target="_blank">www.buildersbooks.com |
6
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flyadive(at)gmail.com
Guest
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| Posted: Sun Nov 28, 2010 10:36 am Post subject: Pilot's Left Brake Problem |
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Tom:
Re-Read the outline. It is in sequential* *order of failure.
If you had a leak ONLY on the pilot side you should be seeing a puddle
somewhere.
All things point to the cylinder.
Barry
On Sun, Nov 28, 2010 at 12:54 PM, Tom Quinn <quinn_tom(at)tqiinc.com> wrote:
[quote] Barry,
Good point, I should have been clearer. They replaced the pads
and bled the brakes over and over again. The Guy with the Grumman experience
came over took off with it and it worked fine after that. Yesterday I had
another pilot in the right seat and when we taxied I had no left brake and I
asked him to stomp on it. His side worked so well it almost launched me
through the windshield. I have a feeling I have a slow leak somewhere. It’s
interesting that the right pilot side had the same problem a year and a half
ago. Thanks for the very detailed response below. I may tell the A&P just to
replace the master cylinder and be done with it.
Tom Quinn
249RR
*From:* owner-teamgrumman-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:
owner-teamgrumman-list-server(at)matronics.com] *On Behalf Of *FLYaDIVE
*Sent:* Sunday, November 28, 2010 12:40 PM
*To:* teamgrumman-list(at)matronics.com
*Subject:* Re: Pilot's Left Brake Problem
REALLY?
Every Part Tom?
BRAKE DIAGNOSTICS
1 - Find which side is bad?
You already did - Pilot side left brake.
2 - Inspect the thickness of the brake pad.
You already did - You SAY it is OK.... Really... Did you see the low limit
marks?
3 - While you are on the ground LQQK at the PINS that the brake pad slide
on.
Are they smooth and clean? If not the pads could be getting cocked on an
angle and not sliding.
Clean them with RED ScotchBrite and rub on some GRAPHITE
or MOLYBDENUM DISULFIDE <-- DRY LUBE.
This helps them slide.
4 - BLEED the brakes from the Bottom - UP
I know you do not have the special No-Spill & Bleed fitting for the Master
Cylinders.
$7.00 a set with instructions plus shipping - Co$t $8.50
5 - ANY LEAKS?
6 - Now - if you bled the brakes and they work from the Co-Pilot side but
not from the Pilot Side...
Guess what... The problem is in the cylinder that is failing.
YES - You can rebuild it - BUT - More then likely it is a BENT PISTON
SHAFT. That is difficult to see.
You will need a flat surface like a glass plate or a 'Surface Plate', to
roll the shaft on to see the bend. It does not take much. It might be
quicker to purchase a NEW Piston Shaft or a new Master Cylinder.
7 - Of course you said you replaced everything - 'O' rings - In the Master
Cylinder and on the Caliper Piston.
Did you clean EVERYTHING? A single hair across an 'O' ring will cause
problems.
8 - Now for some really CRAZY type problems:
Check the brake lines at all the bends. Especially by the but going to the
caliper. I had a CRAZY problem where ALL the preflight testing in the world
did NOT show a crack. BUT, there was a very tinny small crack in the line
that opened with TEMPERATURE and pressure. There were NO LEAKS... VISIBLE.
Is showed one summer day when the owner did a landing and hit the brakes
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flyv35b(at)minetfiber.com
Guest
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| Posted: Sun Nov 28, 2010 11:14 am Post subject: Pilot's Left Brake Problem |
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Tom, it's not all that hard to do. Here is how I do it:
1. Stand on the RH wing walk and then plop your but down in the co-pilot seat with you legs hanging over the rail.
2. Lean sideways over the consol with your shoulder on the LH floor.
3. Reach over the pilots master cylinders with your right arm and unscrew the plastic square cap plugs from the top of the master cylinder. You don't need to see them just do it by feel.
4. Insert a plastic spray tube from one of your aerosol cans down in to the MC. Put your thumb and forefinger at the top of the MC hole and pull the tube out. Look at the level and you now know how much fluid is in there and whether or not you need to add fluid. The fluid should be down from the top about 1/4" from where your fingers when it is full.
5. Bleed and fill the brakes from the bottom up. Once you've done it a few dozen times you will know pretty close just how many pumps from your oil pumper can it takes to fill an empty cylinder and you can get it pretty close without help and making a mess pumping to much out the top. There are other ways but I won't go in to that.
Cliff
[quote] ---
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teamgrumman(at)yahoo.com
Guest
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| Posted: Sun Nov 28, 2010 11:39 am Post subject: Pilot's Left Brake Problem |
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When you say, everything was replaced, can you give a list?
odds are your Master cylinder is AFU.
If it's bled correctly, even if it's not that good, it'll work enough to get by for a while.
From: Tom Quinn <quinn_tom(at)tqiinc.com>
To: teamgrumman-list(at)matronics.com
Sent: Sun, November 28, 2010 12:46:03 AM
Subject: TeamGrumman-List: Pilot's Left Brake Problem
The left brake on the pilot’s side is almost nonexistent. You step on the left pedal and nothing, the co-pilot side is fine so that tells me that the pads are probably okay. I know the Tiger has independent master cylinders and I’m not sure if the fluid is low or if there is air in the system (not sure how that would happen). I had the same problem a year or so ago but it was the right pedal. I had the A&P look at it and they replaced EVERYTHING to try and fix it until they screamed uncle and had the guy with Grumman experience across the ramp come over and take a look at it. Any ideas?
Tom Quinn
249RR
| Quote: | http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?TeamGrumman-List</====
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