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Battery Relay post too short

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rvg8tor

Joined: 06 Apr 2009
Posts: 50
Location: Olympia, WA

Posted: Wed Dec 15, 2010 12:14 pm Post subject: Battery Relay post too short

On the out going post of the master relay I feed the start relay and the main bus feed.  In the attached photo you can see with just the fat wire going to the start relay it takes up most of the room on the post.  I know most of the Z-diagrams show both connected to the master relay.  How do you guys get another lug on there?  I could leave off  the lock washer but then how do you keep it from coming loose?  



One guy told me I could remove the nut that snugs up against the relay, but to make sure the post does not turn, one could replace this with a shorter nut and get more room that way.  Not sure I want to risk moving the internal part, might work for a while but this could cause unknown issues.  



More weight and parts but I guess I could connect the relay to a fat buss bar (maybe ANLs), then connect the start relay wire and the main bus feed wire to each.  



So please let me know how you others solved this issue.



Thanks

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_________________
Mike "Nemo" Elliott
RV-8A QB (Engine)
www.mykitlog.com/rvg8tor

bbradburry(at)bellsouth.n
Guest

Posted: Wed Dec 15, 2010 12:35 pm Post subject: Battery Relay post too short

The nuts in that picture are reversed.  The thicker nut should go on the

outside.



Bill B



--

rvg8tor

Joined: 06 Apr 2009
Posts: 50
Location: Olympia, WA

Posted: Wed Dec 15, 2010 2:17 pm Post subject: Re: Battery Relay post too short

 	  bbradburry(at)bellsouth.n wrote: 	
		  The nuts in that picture are reversed.  The thicker nut should go on the

outside.



Bill B



-- 	




Hmm, that is the way the relay shipped to me from Van's.  Reversing the nut would not give me any more room on the post.

_________________
Mike "Nemo" Elliott
RV-8A QB (Engine)
www.mykitlog.com/rvg8tor

mrspudandcompany(at)veriz
Guest

Posted: Wed Dec 15, 2010 3:48 pm Post subject: Battery Relay post too short

 	  Quote: 	
		   bbradburry(at)bellsouth.n wrote:

> The nuts in that picture are reversed.  The thicker nut should go on the

> outside.

>

> Bill B

>

> --

 Hmm, that is the way the relay shipped to me from Van's.  Reversing the 

 nut would not give me any more room on the post.

            Yes it will, try it!

            Roger

bicyclop(at)pacbell.net
Guest

Posted: Wed Dec 15, 2010 9:43 pm Post subject: Battery Relay post too short

Two thin nuts would do it.

       

       Pax,

       

       Ed Holyoke

     

     On 12/15/2010 3:16 PM, Roger wrote:     [quote]--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Roger"       <mrspudandcompany(at)verizon.net> (mrspudandcompany(at)verizon.net)       

       

        	  Quote: 	
		  bbradburry(at)bellsouth.n wrote:         

          	  Quote: 	
		  The nuts in that picture are reversed.            The thicker nut should go on the           

           outside.           

           

           Bill B           

           

           --           

         	
         

         

         Hmm, that is the way the relay shipped to me from Van's.          Reversing the nut would not give me any more room on the post.         

       	
       

                  Yes it will, try it!       

       

                  Roger 

       

       

       

       

       

       

       

       

       

       

       

       

       

       

       

       

       

       

       

       

       

       

       

       

       

       

       

       

       

       

       

       

       

       

       

       

       

       

       

       

       

       

     [b]

user9253

Joined: 28 Mar 2008
Posts: 1927
Location: Riley TWP Michigan

Posted: Thu Dec 16, 2010 7:57 am Post subject: Re: Battery Relay post too short

 	  Quote: 	
		  The following links and for that matter, the entire website is very interesting. The information and data clearly demonstrates how ineffective split lockwashers are and in some cases the bolt/joint is better WITHOUT the lockwasher. (Look at the graph).

http://www.boltscience.com/pages/vibloose.htm

http://www.boltscience.com/pages/hel...ingwashers.htm

AND the video.....

http://www.boltscience.com/pages/jun...ringwasher.htm

	


The above is a quote from Marty S. that was posted on VansAirforce.  Split ring lock washers are not frequently used on aircraft because they do not always work.  Nord-Lock washers are a much better choice.

For the contactor post, you are better off using blue Loctite.  Loctite will solve two problems: loosening and room for ring terminals.

Joe

_________________
Joe Gores

nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelect
Guest

Posted: Fri Dec 17, 2010 4:14 pm Post subject: Battery Relay post too short

At 02:15 PM 12/15/2010, you wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  



On the out going post of the master relay I feed the start relay and 

the main bus feed.  In the attached photo you can see with just the 

fat wire going to the start relay it takes up most of the room on 

the post.  I know most of the Z-diagrams show both connected to the 

master relay.  How do you guys get another lug on there?  I could 

leave off  the lock washer but then how do you keep it from coming loose?


	


  Lockwashers don't lock anything . . . especially when

  you've got the overhang moments of the fat wires.



 	  Quote: 	
		  One guy told me I could remove the nut that snugs up against the relay,


	


   NO, NO, NO . . .



 	  Quote: 	
		    but to make sure the post does not turn, one could replace this 

 with a shorter nut and get more room that way.  Not sure I want to 

 risk moving the internal part, might work for a while but this 

 could cause unknown issues.


	


    Correct.



 	  Quote: 	
		  More weight and parts but I guess I could connect the relay to a fat 

buss bar (maybe ANLs), then connect the start relay wire and the 

main bus feed wire to each.


	


   Leave the lockwasher off. If you're confident of the

   final positioning of wires, use a mild thread-locker

   on the top nut. Otherwise wait until after your

   fly-off. But risks for loosening are very low.

   It would be really nice if they'd use a thin nut

   against the case. It's not a big participant in

   keeping things connected after all the nuts are on.



   But taking that nut off event to replace it is to

   risk mis-alignment of internal parts.



http://www.aeroelectric.com/Pictures/Contactors/S701-1a.jpg



   In fact, it's REALLY a good idea to use a wrench

   on the bottom nut to counter act torque for

   final tightening of the top nut.

   Bob . . .

rvg8tor

Joined: 06 Apr 2009
Posts: 50
Location: Olympia, WA

Posted: Sat Dec 18, 2010 3:01 pm Post subject: Re: Battery Relay post too short

Thanks everyone for the inputs, I will try the Loctite idea.



Mike

_________________
Mike "Nemo" Elliott
RV-8A QB (Engine)
www.mykitlog.com/rvg8tor

jmjula

Joined: 17 Feb 2006
Posts: 1
Location: Portland, OR

Posted: Sat Dec 18, 2010 10:28 pm Post subject: Re: Battery Relay post too short

I have the same issue. I am planning to chuck the washer and outer nut for a NAS 21042 self locking small profile nut. That should leave room for two connections and self lock, but I need to order some to be sure.

_________________
"What is chiefly needed is skill rather than machinery." - Wilbur Wright, 1902

richardreynolds(at)cox.ne
Guest

Posted: Sun Dec 19, 2010 3:48 am Post subject: Battery Relay post too short

Be careful, I think Loctite comes in 3 grades. (You need to check!!)



Red, Forever, 600F to break it loose.

Blue, Not quite forever

Green, Pipe sealant



Richard Reynolds

Norfolk VA

RV-6A - N841RV



On Dec 18, 2010, at 6:01 PM, rvg8tor wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   

 

 Thanks everyone for the inputs, I will try the Loctite idea.

 

 Mike

 

 --------

 Mike &quot;Nemo&quot; Elliott

 RV-8A QB (Fuselage)

 

 

 

 

 Read this topic online here:

 

 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=323782#323782

harley(at)AgelessWings.co
Guest

Posted: Sun Dec 19, 2010 5:12 am Post subject: Battery Relay post too short

Richard and All...

     

     Good point!  I used to run into this with the mechanics that I     worked with. Grabbing the wrong one and wondering why they had to     reapply it again the next day! Actually, there are almost 30     grades!  Depending on cure rate, application and performance. 

     

     There are 8 grades of threadlocker, depending on application     screw/bolt size and removeability

     7 grades of sealants, depending on app material and temperature. 

     4 grades of gasket material, depending on app temperature and cure     rate.

     And, last but not least, 10 grades for retention!  Depending on gap,     app material, useage and temp.

     

     You can see them all (and their recommended applications) here: 

     http://au.iloctite.com/en/loctite-products

     

     Harley      

     On 12/19/2010 6:43 AM, Richard Reynolds wrote:     [quote]        	  Quote: 	
		  --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Richard Reynolds <richardreynolds(at)cox.net> (richardreynolds(at)cox.net)



Be careful, I think Loctite comes in 3 grades. (You need to check!!)



Red, Forever, 600F to break it loose.

Blue, Not quite forever

Green, Pipe sealant



Richard Reynolds

Norfolk VA

RV-6A - N841RV

	
       

     [b]

racerjerry

Joined: 15 Dec 2009
Posts: 202
Location: Deer Park, NY

Posted: Sun Dec 19, 2010 7:38 am Post subject: Re: Battery Relay post too short

I believe that you have a series circuit of heavy wire between BATTERY to BATTERY RELAY to STARTER RELAY to STARTER.  Electrically, there is NO difference between the output of the battery relay and the input of the starter relay.  If the stud on your starter relay is slightly longer, simply move the extra cable over to the input side of the starter relay. 



The stud on your present BATTERY RELAY (master relay) seems abnormally short.  If it were mine, I would probably just spring for another $25 relay from Aircraft Spruce (after asking them to confirm length).



If you wish to use thin nuts, you can do so without damage by marking and closely observing a line placed on the stud tip with a felt tip pen to monitor any rotation.  Double nut the stud at the tip and tighten, leaving small space between the double nuts and the inner (thick) nut.  With a box wrench on the outer double nut, loosen the original inner nut next to the relay housing using an open end wrench WHILE WATCHING FOR ANY ROTATION by monitoring the ink line.

There is no reason that the inner (stud locking) nut needs to be thick.  In fact, a thin brass nut might help for electrical conductivity.



I do not believe that the previously mentioned NAS21042 nuts are available in coarse (NC) thread.  A light grade of threadlocker might work, but sure as heck if you use it, the connection will have to be undone TOMORROW and now residue is imbedded in the threads.  Upon disassembly when using threadlocker or locknuts, you are much more likely to cause stud rotation, even with the inner jam nut in place.  In any case, mark the stud end with a felt tip pen.



Lock washers don’t work only because they need to be replaced with new every time they are removed.  If you are in the field and must reuse lock washers, at least check to see that they are not flattened.  Split ring lock washers eat hell out of everything they touch.  My preference is for MS353333 internal star lock washers with one AN960 light plain washer under the star (AC 43.13-1B, page 7-15).   Besides, the star lock washers are thinner than split ring types.

_________________
Jerry King

Float Flyr

Joined: 19 Jul 2006
Posts: 2704
Location: Campbellton, Newfoundland

Posted: Mon Dec 20, 2010 2:50 pm Post subject: Battery Relay post too short

I think it comes in three grades too...  just have a look

http://www.henkelna.com/cps/rde/xchg/henkel_us/hs.xsl/product-search-1554.ht

m?&param1=pageIndex%3D0|action%3Dsearch|y%3D0|x%3D0|applicationRedDotUID%3D0

00000026R|subsubapplicationRedDotUID%3D|advanced%3D|subapplicationRedDotUID%

3D00000002AD|brandRedDotUID%3D0000000389|

For some of them you will need to have money...  lots of money!

Noel



--

_________________
Noel Loveys
Kitfox III-A
Aerocet 1100 Floats

harley(at)AgelessWings.co
Guest

Posted: Mon Dec 20, 2010 3:01 pm Post subject: Battery Relay post too short

3 grades?  According to that link you tried to send, it's 50! 

     

     So others can see it, let's try it this way: 

     http://tinyurl.com/24ujwsk

     

     Harley

     

     On 12/20/2010 5:46 PM, Noel R.C. Loveys wrote:     [quote]       [quote]--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Noel R.C. Loveys" <noelloveys(at)yahoo.ca> (noelloveys(at)yahoo.ca)  I think it comes in three grades too...  just have a look http://www.henkelna.com/cps/rde/xchg/henkel_us/hs.xsl/product-search-1554.ht m?&param1=pageIndex%3D0|action%3Dsearch|y%3D0|x%3D0|applicationRedDotUID%3D0 00000026R|subsubapplicationRedDotUID%3D|advanced%3D|subapplicationRedDotUID% 3D00000002AD|brandRedDotUID%3D0000000389|   For some of them you will need to have money...  lots of money! Noel  --

Float Flyr

Joined: 19 Jul 2006
Posts: 2704
Location: Campbellton, Newfoundland

Posted: Mon Dec 20, 2010 3:57 pm Post subject: Battery Relay post too short

Thanks Harley

 

Noel

 

From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Harley

Sent: December 20, 2010 7:28 PM

To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com

Subject: Re: Re: Battery Relay post too short

 

3 grades?  According to that link you tried to send, it's 50! 



So others can see it, let's try it this way: 

http://tinyurl.com/24ujwsk



Harley

On 12/20/2010 5:46 PM, Noel R.C. Loveys wrote:  	  Quote: 	
		  --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Noel R.C. Loveys" <noelloveys(at)yahoo.ca> (noelloveys(at)yahoo.ca) I think it comes in three grades too...  just have a lookhttp://www.henkelna.com/cps/rde/xchg/henkel_us/hs.xsl/product-search-1554.htm?&param1=pageIndex%3D0|action%3Dsearch|y%3D0|x%3D0|applicationRedDotUID%3D000000026R|subsubapplicationRedDotUID%3D|advanced%3D|subapplicationRedDotUID%3D00000002AD|brandRedDotUID%3D0000000389|  For some of them you will need to have money...  lots of money! 	
0 	  Quote: 	
		   	
1[quote]--

_________________
Noel Loveys
Kitfox III-A
Aerocet 1100 Floats

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