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bvnj(at)yahoo.com
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 Posted: Thu Dec 23, 2010 5:46 am Post subject: FlightPrep patent |
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FlightPrep has managed to pull a patent trough regarding on-line flight planning and aviation maps. As far as I can tell, they patented existing technology by using some creative wording. Now they are going after all on-line flight planning companies including FltPlan (http://www.fltplan.com/fltplanpressrelease.htm), FlightAware (http://flightaware.com/news/article/FlightAware-Statement-on-FlightPrep-Patent/147) and AOPA(http://www.aopa.org/flightplanning/articles/2010/101214AOPA_Flight_Planner_does_not_infringe_on_patent.html) and trying to shake them down.
They have already caused shut-down of RunwayFinder(my favorite chart mapping site), www.nacomatic.com and www.flyagogo.net. They managed to intimidate SkyVector into submission.
Here is a podcast that shows the gravity of the FlightPrep's assault and a threat to all on-line flight planning sites, particularly the free ones:
http://www.avweb.com/podcast/podcast/AudioPodcast_LionelLavenue_FlightPrepFlightPlanning_PatentLaw_203826-1.html
Please spread the news and boycott the FlightPrep.
Thank you,
-Boris
P.S. I have also sent this to GG list, but aparently that dude thinks that shutting down flight plannig web sites has no relevance to Grumman pilots. Now I understand Gary's feelings.
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flyadive(at)gmail.com
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| Posted: Thu Dec 23, 2010 10:21 am Post subject: FlightPrep patent |
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Guys:
I'm going to take a WAG here.
If the same software has been available as a FREE DOMAIN and there is PROOF of prior existence. Than the organization that has to be chastised is not FlightPrep. Sure they are trying to pull a quick one. But, it is the patten office that did not do their homework.
More information is needed, I recall some basic guidelines that SOFTWARE is a copy-write and not a patten. Yet, if there was a doggle or toggle used to activate or protect the software THAT could be patented. Any lawyers out there? How about a class action suit?
Barry
===========================
On Thu, Dec 23, 2010 at 8:44 AM, b v <bvnj(at)yahoo.com (bvnj(at)yahoo.com)> wrote:
[quote]--> TeamGrumman-List message posted by: b v <bvnj(at)yahoo.com (bvnj(at)yahoo.com)>
FlightPrep has managed to pull a patent trough regarding on-line flight planning and aviation maps. As far as I can tell, they patented existing technology by using some creative wording. Now they are going after all on-line flight planning companies including FltPlan (http://www.fltplan.com/fltplanpressrelease.htm), FlightAware (http://flightaware.com/news/article/FlightAware-Statement-on-FlightPrep-Patent/147) and AOPA(http://www.aopa.org/flightplanning/articles/2010/101214AOPA_Flight_Planner_does_not_infringe_on_patent.html) and trying to shake them down.
They have already caused shut-down of RunwayFinder(my favorite chart mapping site), www.nacomatic.com and www.flyagogo.net. They managed to intimidate SkyVector into submission.
Here is a podcast that shows the gravity of the FlightPrep's assault and a threat to all on-line flight planning sites, particularly the free ones:
http://www.avweb.com/podcast/podcast/AudioPodcast_LionelLavenue_FlightPrepFlightPlanning_PatentLaw_203826-1.html
Please spread the news and boycott the FlightPrep.
Thank you,
-Boris
P.S. I have also sent this to GG list, but aparently that dude thinks that shutting down flight plannig web sites has no relevance to Grumman pilots. Now I understand Gary's feelings.
===========
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jstarkey(at)nimbusdb.com
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| Posted: Thu Dec 23, 2010 11:25 am Post subject: FlightPrep patent |
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I'm afraid that putting adjectives in all caps doesn't necessarily make them true. The FlightPrep patent was filed in 2001, which, in software terms, is centuries back.
The basis of the patent is using a client browser in conjunction with a server to develop a graphical flight plan. The systems cited as pre-existing art required all charts, etc., be resident on the client computer.
A problem with the patent system is that even if neither A nor B is patentable, A + B is. Another problem is that although something obvious to practitioners of an art, the courts and the patent office recognize that almost everything is obvious after the fact.
FlightPrep is indeed being pretty heavy handed and more that tad greedy. But they're also taking on some very big guns with very large legal budgets like Jeppesen and AOPA. Unless FlightPrep has backers with very deep pockets, they'll probably run out of money before Jeppesen and AOPA run out of appeals.
Software is automatically copyrighted and may or may not be patented. There was a time that he USPTO considered software to algorithms, which are not patentable. The Supreme Court found otherwise.
That said, I think a boycott of FlightPrep is not unreasonable. In their case, A + B was blatantly obvious, they added nothing to the state of the art, are suppressing useful services, and deserve to be put out of business by Foreflight on the iPad.
On 12/23/2010 1:16 PM, FLYaDIVE wrote: [quote]Guys:
I'm going to take a WAG here.
If the same software has been available as a FREE DOMAIN and there is PROOF of prior existence. Than the organization that has to be chastised is not FlightPrep. Sure they are trying to pull a quick one. But, it is the patten office that did not do their homework.
More information is needed, I recall some basic guidelines that SOFTWARE is a copy-write and not a patten. Yet, if there was a doggle or toggle used to activate or protect the software THAT could be patented. Any lawyers out there? How about a class action suit?
Barry
===========================
On Thu, Dec 23, 2010 at 8:44 AM, b v <bvnj(at)yahoo.com (bvnj(at)yahoo.com)> wrote:
--
Jim Starkey
Founder, NimbusDB, Inc.
978 526-1376
[b]
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don.curry(at)inbox.com
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| Posted: Thu Dec 23, 2010 12:33 pm Post subject: FlightPrep patent |
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If FlightPrep was issued a proper US Patent for its product, then why is it wrong for it to protect its patent? Have we so lost sight of the value of private property in this country that we are willing to call FlightPrep greedy for wanting to protect its own possession? Have we decided that it deserves to be boycotted and put out of business for following the law? That seems harsh and bitter to me. Personally, I don’t know if FlightPrep has a legal and proper patent or if any of the other named parties has infringed on that patent. I believe the responsible thing to do is hold fire until the courts have reviewed the matter and ruled. However, if the patent is deemed legal and proper and if RunwayFinder, AOPA, SkyVector, FlyaGoGo, et al have used it without the right to do so, then shame on them. And shame on those who rushed to judgment and took action (boycott or otherwise) against the true owner of the property. Isn’t the strength of a constitutional republic supposed to be its dedication to the rule of law and not the emotional appeals of the mob? Beware to all of us, for the next time the mob wants to take someone’s private property it may be one of ours.
Don
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quinn_tom(at)tqiinc.com
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| Posted: Thu Dec 23, 2010 1:25 pm Post subject: FlightPrep patent |
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The problem is that Flightprep may have over extended their claim that other companies have infringed upon their patent and have used their attorneys to scare small guys, without money, to close down. The bigger corporations that have deeper pockets basically told Flightprep to stick it where the sun doesn’t shine. If they have overextended their claim on their patent then it is them who is stealing from others. Until the courts sort this out I am exercising my first amendment right of speaking out against Flightprep for using these heavy handed tactics against people who can’t defend themselves and am encouraging my friends to join me in boycotting them as well. Looks like RunwayFinder has changed his mind in mounting a defense against Flightprep http://blog.runwayfinder.com/. I will, and I encourage everyone else, to use what money they would have bought Flightprep products with, to donate to Dave Parson’s legal defense fund once it is up and running.
Tom Quinn
249RR
From: owner-teamgrumman-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-teamgrumman-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Don Curry
Sent: Thursday, December 23, 2010 3:29 PM
To: teamgrumman-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: RE: FlightPrep patent
If FlightPrep was issued a proper US Patent for its product, then why is it wrong for it to protect its patent? Have we so lost sight of the value of private property in this country that we are willing to call FlightPrep greedy for wanting to protect its own possession? Have we decided that it deserves to be boycotted and put out of business for following the law? That seems harsh and bitter to me. Personally, I don’t know if FlightPrep has a legal and proper patent or if any of the other named parties has infringed on that patent. I believe the responsible thing to do is hold fire until the courts have reviewed the matter and ruled. However, if the patent is deemed legal and proper and if RunwayFinder, AOPA, SkyVector, FlyaGoGo, et al have used it without the right to do so, then shame on them. And shame on those who rushed to judgment and took action (boycott or otherwise) against the true owner of the property. Isn’t the strength of a constitutional republic supposed to be its dedication to the rule of law and not the emotional appeals of the mob? Beware to all of us, for the next time the mob wants to take someone’s private property it may be one of ours.
Don
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pitts_pilot(at)bellsouth.
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| Posted: Thu Dec 23, 2010 1:35 pm Post subject: FlightPrep patent |
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In this age of heavy litigation, it's not really who is right, but who has the deeper pockets. I have no dog in this fight .... I think that's illegal anyway ..... but we, as consumers have few options to convey to a business that we don't like their way of doing business. A boycott is one of the few ways available. From what I've seen, the patent office issues patents when there isn't a conflict with available patents ..... and then leaves it up to the courts to decide if the patent is pure or not. Given the vagaries of judges in this country, I don't see that as a really good plan .... but it is what it is. So, whether the patent is valid or not makes no difference .... the presentation to the legal system becomes the deciding factor. IMHO, of course.
Linn
On 12/23/2010 3:29 PM, Don Curry wrote: [quote]
If FlightPrep was issued a proper US Patent for its product, then why is it wrong for it to protect its patent? Have we so lost sight of the value of private property in this country that we are willing to call FlightPrep greedy for wanting to protect its own possession? Have we decided that it deserves to be boycotted and put out of business for following the law? That seems harsh and bitter to me. Personally, I don’t know if FlightPrep has a legal and proper patent or if any of the other named parties has infringed on that patent. I believe the responsible thing to do is hold fire until the courts have reviewed the matter and ruled. However, if the patent is deemed legal and proper and if RunwayFinder, AOPA, SkyVector, FlyaGoGo, et al have used it without the right to do so, then shame on them. And shame on those who rushed to judgment and took action (boycott or otherwise) against the true owner of the property. Isn’t the strength of a constitutional republic supposed to be its dedication to the rule of law and not the emotional appeals of the mob? Beware to all of us, for the next time the mob wants to take someone’s private property it may be one of ours.
Don
[b]
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don.curry(at)inbox.com
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| Posted: Thu Dec 23, 2010 7:33 pm Post subject: FlightPrep patent |
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Tom,
I’m not trying to assume the role of apologist or defender for FlightPrep, nor as antagonist to FlightPrep’s detractors. However, as a proud member of the aviation community for many years, I have enjoyed the fact-based perspective this community usually displays. It must have something to do with working with gravity. So I am surprised to see your fervor backed up only by a “may” and an “if:” “FlightPrep may have overextended their [sic] claim. . .,” and “If they overextended their [sic] claim. . .” Equally surprising is your acknowledgment that the courts need to sort this out, meaning, it seems, that you understand that we don’t currently know the whole truth and, in the end, the court’s finding may be in favor of FlightPrep. But until all the facts are weighed and the scales of justice are balanced, you are determined to light the torches and incite the villagers to help you assassinate the suspect. Sounds kind of like a kangaroo court – you know, “give the suspect a fair trial then hang the guilty bastard!” Of course you can do what you want with your money, your time, and your speech, but I would encourage you to spend a little time in your introspective place and see if you might prefer an approach that lets the contestants run the race before declaring a winner. Oh, and on that free speech thing, it’s not free if it is used to promote an injustice and ends up costing you your honor. Just sayin.
Don
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flyadive(at)gmail.com
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| Posted: Thu Dec 23, 2010 7:33 pm Post subject: FlightPrep patent |
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http://www.wvfc.org/b/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=3735
On Thu, Dec 23, 2010 at 3:29 PM, Don Curry <don.curry(at)inbox.com> wrote:
[quote] If FlightPrep was issued a proper US Patent for its product, then why is
it wrong for it to protect its patent? Have we so lost sight of the value
of private property in this country that we are willing to call FlightPrep
greedy for wanting to protect its own possession? Have we decided that it
deserves to be boycotted and put out of business for following the law?
That seems harsh and bitter to me. Personally, I don’t know if FlightPrep
has a legal and proper patent or if any of the other named parties has
infringed on that patent. I believe the responsible thing to do is hold
fire until the courts have reviewed the matter and ruled. However, if the
patent is deemed legal and proper and if RunwayFinder, AOPA, SkyVector,
FlyaGoGo, et al have used it without the right to do so, then shame on
them. And shame on those who rushed to judgment and took action (boycott or
otherwise) against the true owner of the property. Isn’t the strength of a
constitutional republic supposed to be its dedication to the rule of law and
not the emotional appeals of the mob? Beware to all of us, for the next
time the mob wants to take someone’s private property it may be one of
ours.
Don
--
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teamgrumman(at)yahoo.com
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| Posted: Thu Dec 23, 2010 9:26 pm Post subject: FlightPrep patent |
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Makes one wonder what the hell difference it makes.
From: b v <bvnj(at)yahoo.com>
To: teamgrumman-list(at)matronics.com
Sent: Thu, December 23, 2010 5:44:16 AM
Subject: FlightPrep patent
--> TeamGrumman-List message posted by: b v <bvnj(at)yahoo.com (bvnj(at)yahoo.com)>
FlightPrep has managed to pull a patent trough regarding on-line flight planning and aviation maps. As far as I can tell, they patented existing technology by using some creative wording. Now they are going after all on-line flight planning companies including FltPlan (http://www.fltplan.com/fltplanpressrelease.htm), FlightAware (http://flightaware.com/news/article/FlightAware-Statement-on-FlightPrep-Patent/147) and AOPA(http://www.aopa.org/flightplanning/articles/2010/101214AOPA_Flight_Planner_does_not_infringe_on_patent.html) and trying to shake them down.
They have already caused shut-down of RunwayFinder(my favorite chart mapping site), www.nacomatic.com and www.flyagogo.net. They managed to intimidate SkyVector into submission.
Here is a podcast that shows the gravity of the FlightPrep's assault and a threat to all on-line flight planning sites, particularly the free ones:
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don.curry(at)inbox.com
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| Posted: Fri Dec 24, 2010 8:35 am Post subject: FlightPrep patent |
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Brian,
Don’t take this personally; I don’t know you and I’m sure you are a great guy. But there seems to be a sudden glut of experts on your side who know an awful lot about the specific, inner workings of the FlightPrep patent and patent law in general. I don’t know who is getting you guys lathered up, but my spider senses are on full alert. I think you’re being played. According to something I read, the US Patent Office examined FlightPrep’s patent application for eight years before issuing the patent. Eight years under a government bureaucrat’s microscope! And then suddenly, within just a couple of weeks of RunwayFinder willingly pulling itself off the web, I read account after account from you experts who absolutely know that FlightPrep didn’t deserve its patent -- and you back up your position by swearing and calling names which, of course, is an impressive and persuasive tactic for some! Of course, you only have to prove to yourselves that you know more than the US Patent Office and all the patent attorneys who have undoubtedly looked at this over the months – oh, and more than RunwayFinder, which took its site down for a reason – for once you have yourselves convinced, you can enjoy the fun of espousing your opinion in your characteristically delicate manner. Personally, I don’t know how FlightPrep did it! In fact, I read in amazement some of Gary Vogt’s accounts of his dealings with the FAA while he was getting his STC for his cowl. I’m sure I would have had an aneurism after about the second time the FAA changed some parameter it wanted to check! The point is, the government’s professional deny-boys examined FlightPrep’s application for what seems like an excessive amount of time and ultimately approved it. So should FlightPrep be commended for enduring the pain and bringing its product to market or should it be bashed for being successful? You have vociferously bought into the emotion that it should be bashed and boycotted. I think I’ll cling to the “innocent until proven guilty” concept for a while longer.
Don
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flyadive(at)gmail.com
Guest
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| Posted: Fri Dec 24, 2010 12:32 pm Post subject: FlightPrep patent |
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With all this Jaw - Jacking going on has ANYONE bothered to look up the ACTUAL PATTEN?
I have been on the USPOTS site for the past half hour and have NOT been able to find anything on FlightPrep.
Is it registered under any other company name or person?
Who found what ... "Eight years" in investigation via the patten office? That sure sounds like a bunch of Hog Wash! Maybe it sat on some bureaucratic desk for 7 years 365 days and was signed off in the last 1/4 day.
BUT! Until we all know the exact wording of the patten stop this oral dedication.
I asked for a lawyers response, from what I see there was NONE.
My Father had a couple of pattens and I can attest that these people are NOT EINSTEINS. Even though Einstein worked for them for a few years. And how bright can Einstein be; he killed his careerer by continuing to search for a universal energy theory. Hell, maybe GOD did play dice!
"The FACTS Ma'm, just the FACTS"
Barry
[quote][b]
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flyv35b(at)minetfiber.com
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| Posted: Fri Dec 24, 2010 12:38 pm Post subject: FlightPrep patent |
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Don, is there something wrong with your email program, etc. I have gotten about 25 of the same emails from your this AM
Cliff
[quote] ---
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pitts_pilot(at)bellsouth.
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| Posted: Fri Dec 24, 2010 12:44 pm Post subject: FlightPrep patent |
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This is what I've heard ..... so don't count them as facts.
First, they're patents. 
Second, it was said that the original patent application was rejected, and that new wording was presented and passed.
No, I'm not a lawyer, don't play one on TV, and think that a boycott is a good way to display displeasure ..... in this instance or any other.
Linn
Merry Christmas everybody!!!
On 12/24/2010 3:28 PM, FLYaDIVE wrote: [quote]With all this Jaw - Jacking going on has ANYONE bothered to look up the ACTUAL PATTEN?
I have been on the USPOTS site for the past half hour and have NOT been able to find anything on FlightPrep.
Is it registered under any other company name or person?
Who found what ... "Eight years" in investigation via the patten office? That sure sounds like a bunch of Hog Wash! Maybe it sat on some bureaucratic desk for 7 years 365 days and was signed off in the last 1/4 day.
BUT! Until we all know the exact wording of the patten stop this oral dedication.
I asked for a lawyers response, from what I see there was NONE.
My Father had a couple of pattens and I can attest that these people are NOT EINSTEINS. Even though Einstein worked for them for a few years. And how bright can Einstein be; he killed his careerer by continuing to search for a universal energy theory. Hell, maybe GOD did play dice!
"The FACTS Ma'm, just the FACTS"
Barry
[b]
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bob.hodo(at)yahoo.com
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| Posted: Fri Dec 24, 2010 12:59 pm Post subject: FlightPrep patent |
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One of my favorite flight prep sources was Navmonster.com
Go look what you see there now.
I am not clear on what it is that flightprep claims to be their invention. Who holds the patent for internet forums? For chat rooms? For search engines? For road maps? For weather depiction? For an internet based dictionary?
Maybe flightprep should be worried that Al Gore will send them a notice that they need to buy a license from him. He invented the internet, right?
Bob Hodo
GADsden, AL
[quote][b]
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don.curry(at)inbox.com
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| Posted: Fri Dec 24, 2010 1:24 pm Post subject: FlightPrep patent |
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Enjoy the read and let us know what you find. Oh, I think the 8-year period runs from the first application in 2001 [next to the “( 62)” in the first column] to the issuance in 2009.
Don
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flyv35b(at)minetfiber.com
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| Posted: Fri Dec 24, 2010 1:24 pm Post subject: FlightPrep patent |
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Is anyone else getting numerous copies of this same email?
[quote] ---
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don.curry(at)inbox.com
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| Posted: Fri Dec 24, 2010 1:25 pm Post subject: FlightPrep patent |
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Sorry, Cliff, sometimes it does that when Outlook gets full and I never know unless somebody tells me. I hope I fixed it.
--
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allenc3(at)bellsouth.net
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| Posted: Fri Dec 24, 2010 1:54 pm Post subject: FlightPrep patent |
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If I remember my history correctly, the Wright Bros. Patented heavier than air flying. Did not do them any good either (I went on the Wright Bros. Tour at Dayton).
Claude Allen
Sent from my iPad
On Dec 24, 2010, at 3:42 PM, Linn Walters <pitts_pilot(at)bellsouth.net (pitts_pilot(at)bellsouth.net)> wrote:
[quote] This is what I've heard ..... so don't count them as facts.
First, they're patents.
Second, it was said that the original patent application was rejected, and that new wording was presented and passed.
No, I'm not a lawyer, don't play one on TV, and think that a boycott is a good way to display displeasure ..... in this instance or any other.
Linn
Merry Christmas everybody!!!
On 12/24/2010 3:28 PM, FLYaDIVE wrote: | Quote: | With all this Jaw - Jacking going on has ANYONE bothered to look up the ACTUAL PATTEN?
I have been on the USPOTS site for the past half hour and have NOT been able to find anything on FlightPrep.
Is it registered under any other company name or person?
Who found what ... "Eight years" in investigation via the patten office? That sure sounds like a bunch of Hog Wash! Maybe it sat on some bureaucratic desk for 7 years 365 days and was signed off in the last 1/4 day.
BUT! Until we all know the exact wording of the patten stop this oral dedication.
I asked for a lawyers response, from what I see there was NONE.
My Father had a couple of pattens and I can attest that these people are NOT EINSTEINS. Even though Einstein worked for them for a few years. And how bright can Einstein be; he killed his careerer by continuing to search for a universal energy theory. Hell, maybe GOD did play dice!
"The FACTS Ma'm, just the FACTS"
Barry
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bob.hodo(at)yahoo.com
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| Posted: Fri Dec 24, 2010 2:38 pm Post subject: FlightPrep patent |
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Happy Birthday to You, Happy Birthday, WE'LL SUE!
Interesting read: http://www.snopes.com/music/songs/birthday.asp
The people who own the rights weren't even born when the tune and words morphed together and it generates about $2 million per year for them.
Now I think I will run to the patent office and get me a patent on holding the control key down and pressing C for copy.
Reminds me of a song by Chris Rea, called "Texas". A line says, "Been talkin' to my neighbor, and he agree's with me... it's all gone crazy."
BH
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bob.hodo(at)yahoo.com
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| Posted: Fri Dec 24, 2010 3:14 pm Post subject: FlightPrep patent |
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"Another object is to provide an interactive means of pointing and clicking on waypoints and other chart features and therefore, obtain information about these chart features."
Apparently these folks, while not claiming to have invented pointing and clicking, claim to have been the first to think of using this computer method for flight planning.
I don't sense that they are claiming to have invented anything. But have taken the position that things have been invented that nobody else has made a claim for, and so they have sought and received exclusive rights to use or license it.
Airnav and Navmonster and AOPA would be doing exactly what they were doing last week if these people had never been born. They stole nothing from them. The thieves are the first ones to hire a lawyer.
BH
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