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richard.goode(at)russiana
Guest

Posted: Mon Dec 27, 2010 9:02 pm Post subject: 52 spinning

This is an issue that greatly concerns me,as it  should anyone who spins the 52.

 The 52 will always recover,but particularly from a  flat spin,recovery is not always conventional;can be very prolonged;stick  forces VERY high.

 Martin Stahlik,then number 7 in the World,and a  superb aerobatic pilot,but with no 52 experience,spun down to the ground in a  52.

 This is why proper instruction by an experienced 52  instructor is critical.

 Richard

 Richard Goode Aerobatics 

Rhodds Farm  

Lyonshall 

Hereford 

HR5 3LW 

United Kingdom 

  

 Tel:   +44 (0) 1544 340120 

Fax:   +44 (0) 1544 340129 

www.russianaeros.com

I’m currently in  Sri Lanka but this Mail is working,and my local phone is +94 779 132  160.

  

  

   [quote][b]

mikspin

Joined: 12 Aug 2007
Posts: 66

Posted: Mon Dec 27, 2010 10:35 pm Post subject: Re: 52 spinning

Richard,



I have read the various Yak 52 spin literature in the past and have always wondered if the high stick forces quoted were in a Yak 52 with the original centering springs (or "bungees" as a lot of people call them) installed.  I have flown Yaks with and without these installed and of course noticed quite a difference in control feel and forces during maneuvering at the extremes of the envelope.



TIA 



Mike Hastings

richard.goode(at)russiana
Guest

Posted: Tue Dec 28, 2010 2:56 am Post subject: 52 spinning

No,the springs have far less effect than the airflow over the control 

surfaces that you need to overcome in the flat spin recovery.

Stick forces can be well over 100 pounds,and rudder forces well over 200 

pounds!!

Richard

Richard Goode Aerobatics

Rhodds Farm

Lyonshall

Hereford

HR5 3LW

United Kingdom



Tel:   +44 (0) 1544 340120

Fax:  +44 (0) 1544 340129

www.russianaeros.com

I'm currently in Sri Lanka but this Mail is working,and my local phone is 

+94 779 132 160.

---

mikspin

Joined: 12 Aug 2007
Posts: 66

Posted: Tue Dec 28, 2010 7:06 am Post subject: Re: 52 spinning

Yes, I've read the article many times that states that as such, and I'm aware of the difference between the aerodynamics forces acting on the controls and the force of the springs.  



Regardless, I am asking if the article you were involved with referred to an aircraft with the springs installed.



Thank you



Mike

richard.goode(at)russiana
Guest

Posted: Tue Dec 28, 2010 8:28 am Post subject: 52 spinning

No-since I assume that all civilian owners will remove them-but my concern 

is that all pilots who spin 52s should have been instructed on the issues 

involved.

Richard

Richard Goode Aerobatics

Rhodds Farm

Lyonshall

Hereford

HR5 3LW

United Kingdom



Tel:   +44 (0) 1544 340120

Fax:  +44 (0) 1544 340129

www.russianaeros.com

I'm currently in Sri Lanka but this Mail is working,and my local phone is 

+94 779 132 160.

---

bwade154(at)yahoo.com
Guest

Posted: Tue Dec 28, 2010 11:16 am Post subject: 52 spinning

Richard its been mentioned that you flew two Yak 52 that didn't recover with conventional (Yak 52) control inputs, how did you regain control or did you bail?

 Bill Wade



 

   From: Richard.Goode <richard.goode(at)russianaeros.com>

To: yak-list(at)matronics.com

Sent: Tue, December 28, 2010 11:12:02 AM

Subject: Re: Yak-List: Re: 52 spinning



--> Yak-List message posted by: "Richard.Goode" <richard.goode(at)russianaeros.com (richard.goode(at)russianaeros.com)>



No-since I assume that all civilian owners will remove them-but my concern 

is that all pilots who spin 52s should have been instructed on the issues 

involved.

Richard

Richard Goode Aerobatics

Rhodds Farm

Lyonshall

Hereford

HR5 3LW

United Kingdom



Tel:  +44 (0) 1544 340120

Fax:  +44 (0) 1544 340129

www.russianaeros.com

I'm currently in Sri Lanka but this Mail is working,and my local phone is 

+94 779 132 160.

---

nigel(at)yakdisplay.com
Guest

Posted: Tue Dec 28, 2010 12:06 pm Post subject: 52 spinning

Bill, 

The conventional recovery technique involves ailerons central. The aspect of the 52 that can catch you out is that recovery from a flat spin MAY need FULL IN SPIN aileron. The two yaks Richard mentions will be two that did not recover UNLESS the in spin aileron was used. Recovery is prolonged even with the aileron.. Typically 5 turns or so AFTER full anti spin controls have been applied.... often meaning people relax this approach and try something else - which simply isn't going to work. And when it does recover, it snapshot requiring fairly fast centralising of all controls. Hence the recommendation from any 52 aeros pilot to go and do some with an instructor for the experience. 



Regards



Nigel

On 28 Dec 2010, at 19:13, bill wade <bwade154(at)yahoo.com (bwade154(at)yahoo.com)> wrote:



[quote]Richard its been mentioned that you flew two Yak 52 that didn't recover with conventional (Yak 52) control inputs, how did you regain control or did you bail?

 Bill Wade



 

   From: Richard.Goode <richard.goode(at)russianaeros.com (richard.goode(at)russianaeros.com)>

To: [url=mailto:yak-list(at)matronics.com]yak-list(at)matronics.com (yak-list(at)matronics.com)[/url]

Sent: Tue, December 28, 2010 11:12:02 AM

Subject: Re: Re: 52 spinning



--> Yak-List message posted by: "Richard.Goode" <[url=mailto:richard.goode(at)russianaeros.com]richard.goode(at)russianaeros.com (richard.goode(at)russianaeros.com)[/url]>



No-since I assume that all civilian owners will remove them-but my concern 

is that all pilots who spin 52s should have been instructed on the issues 

involved.

Richard

Richard Goode Aerobatics

Rhodds Farm

Lyonshall

Hereford

HR5 3LW

United Kingdom



Tel:  +44 (0) 1544 340120

Fax:  +44 (0) 1544 340129

www.russianaeros.com

I'm currently in Sri Lanka but this Mail is working,and my local phone is 

+94 779 132 160.

---

richard.goode(at)russiana
Guest

Posted: Tue Dec 28, 2010 5:50 pm Post subject: 52 spinning

To make the position clear,I was not flying either  52.

 But after the Martin Stahlik accident in a 52 that  we had sold,I was shocked that such an experienced and skilled pilot could be  unable to recover from a spin,particularly since he had a lot of altitude,and  had begun the spin at over 6,000 feet.In consequence I did a lot of research on  the whole topic,mainly with Yakovlev and pilots from Russia's DOSAAF who  had,collectively,thousands of hours of 52 spinning.From this it became clear  that conventional recovery MAY not work in the 52,although it WILL recover  if the pilot understands the possible slowness of recovery;the very high control  forces and the POSSIBLE need for inspin aeleron.Of course this is only normally  the case with a developed flat spin,but no one should spin a 52 on the  assumption that the spin will not develop or go flat!!

 Richard Goode Aerobatics 

Rhodds Farm  

Lyonshall 

Hereford 

HR5 3LW 

United Kingdom 

  

 Tel:   +44 (0) 1544 340120 

Fax:   +44 (0) 1544 340129 

www.russianaeros.com

I’m currently in  Sri Lanka but this Mail is working,and my local phone is +94 779 132  160.

  

  

   [quote][b]

andrewrichards7(at)gmail.
Guest

Posted: Wed Dec 29, 2010 1:41 am Post subject: 52 spinning

Hi Richard



I just bought a 55M out of the US, it will be on a boat this week. Are

there these types of spin issues with the 55M?



I have no time on 55's, only Pitts and Extra's.



Andrew



On 12/29/10, Richard.Goode <richard.goode(at)russianaeros.com> wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   To make the position clear,I was not flying either 52.

 But after the Martin Stahlik accident in a 52 that we had sold,I was shocked

 that such an experienced and skilled pilot could be unable to recover from a

 spin,particularly since he had a lot of altitude,and had begun the spin at

 over 6,000 feet.In consequence I did a lot of research on the whole

 topic,mainly with Yakovlev and pilots from Russia's DOSAAF who

 had,collectively,thousands of hours of 52 spinning.From this it became clear

 that conventional recovery MAY not work in the 52,although it WILL recover

 if the pilot understands the possible slowness of recovery;the very high

 control forces and the POSSIBLE need for inspin aeleron.Of course this is

 only normally the case with a developed flat spin,but no one should spin a

 52 on the assumption that the spin will not develop or go flat!!

 Richard Goode Aerobatics

 Rhodds Farm

 Lyonshall

 Hereford

 HR5 3LW

 United Kingdom



 Tel:   +44 (0) 1544 340120

 Fax:  +44 (0) 1544 340129

 www.russianaeros.com

 I’m currently in Sri Lanka but this Mail is working,and my local phone is

 +94 779 132 160.

richard.goode(at)russiana
Guest

Posted: Wed Dec 29, 2010 2:04 am Post subject: 52 spinning

To the best of my knowledge,none of these 52 cautions are issues with the 

55,which has excellent spin recovery characteristics.

Richard Goode Aerobatics

Rhodds Farm

Lyonshall

Hereford

HR5 3LW

United Kingdom



Tel:   +44 (0) 1544 340120

Fax:  +44 (0) 1544 340129

www.russianaeros.com

I’m currently in Sri Lanka but this Mail is working,and my local phone is 

+94 779 132 160.

---

andrewrichards7(at)gmail.
Guest

Posted: Wed Dec 29, 2010 3:54 am Post subject: 52 spinning

Thanks Richard.

Andrew



On 12/29/10, Richard.Goode <richard.goode(at)russianaeros.com> wrote:

[quote] 

 <richard.goode(at)russianaeros.com>



 To the best of my knowledge,none of these 52 cautions are issues with the

 55,which has excellent spin recovery characteristics.

 Richard Goode Aerobatics

 Rhodds Farm

 Lyonshall

 Hereford

 HR5 3LW

 United Kingdom



 Tel:   +44 (0) 1544 340120

 Fax:  +44 (0) 1544 340129

 www.russianaeros.com

 I’m currently in Sri Lanka but this Mail is working,and my local phone is

 +94 779 132 160.

 ---

bu131(at)swbell.net
Guest

Posted: Wed Dec 29, 2010 7:57 am Post subject: 52 spinning

inverted spin training in yak55m includes the jesus maneuver as per nik timofeyev if all fails center the stick keep some power on , opposite  rudder and pray same characteristics as 52



 

   From: andrew richards <andrewrichards7(at)gmail.com>

To: yak-list(at)matronics.com

Sent: Wed, December 29, 2010 3:37:58 AM

Subject: Re: 52 spinning



--> Yak-List message posted by: andrew richards <andrewrichards7(at)gmail.com (andrewrichards7(at)gmail.com)>



Hi Richard



I just bought a 55M out of the US, it will be on a boat this week. Are

there these types of spin issues with the 55M?



I have no time on 55's, only Pitts and Extra's.



Andrew



On 12/29/10, Richard.Goode <richard.goode(at)russianaeros.com (richard.goode(at)russianaeros.com)> wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   To make the position  clear,I was not flying either 52.

 But after the Martin Stahlik accident in a 52 that we had sold,I was shocked

 that such an experienced and skilled pilot could be unable to recover from a

 spin,particularly since he had a lot of altitude,and had begun the spin at

 over 6,000 feet.In consequence I did a lot of research on the whole

 topic,mainly with Yakovlev and pilots from Russia's DOSAAF who

 had,collectively,thousands of hours of 52 spinning.From this it became clear

 that conventional recovery MAY not work in the 52,although it WILL recover

 if the pilot understands the possible slowness of recovery;the very high

 control forces and the POSSIBLE need for inspin aeleron.Of course this is

 only normally the case with a developed flat spin,but no one should spin a

 52 on the assumption that the spin will not develop or go flat!!

 Richard Goode Aerobatics

  Rhodds Farm

 Lyonshall

 Hereford

 HR5 3LW

 United Kingdom



 Tel:  +44 (0) 1544 340120

 Fax:  +44 (0) 1544 340129

 www.russianaeros.com

 Iâ€™m currently in Sri Lanka but this Mail is working,and my local phone is

 +94 779 132 16=          (And Get Some AWESOME FREE Gifts!)www.homebuilthelp.com[/url]

_bsp;                     ========================
	




 [quote][b]

bwade154(at)yahoo.com
Guest

Posted: Wed Dec 29, 2010 8:21 pm Post subject: 52 spinning

Thanks for clarifying that Richard, has anyone bailed from a Yak that didn't recover or do most just ride it in. Next question Richard does the 52TD have the same flat spin characteristics as the 52?

 Bill Wade



 

   From: Richard.Goode <richard.goode(at)russianaeros.com>

To: YAK USA LIST <yak-list(at)matronics.com>

Sent: Tue, December 28, 2010 8:55:04 PM

Subject: 52 spinning



   To make the position clear,I was not flying either 52.

 But after the Martin Stahlik accident in a 52 that we had sold,I was shocked that such an experienced and skilled pilot could be unable to recover from a spin,particularly since he had a lot of altitude,and had begun the spin at over 6,000 feet.In consequence I did a lot of research on the whole topic,mainly with Yakovlev and pilots from Russia's DOSAAF who had,collectively,thousands of hours of 52 spinning.From this it became clear that conventional recovery MAY not work in the 52,although it WILL recover if the pilot understands the possible slowness of recovery;the very high control forces and the POSSIBLE need for inspin aeleron.Of course this is only normally the case with a developed flat spin,but no one should spin a 52 on the assumption that the spin will not develop or go flat!!

 Richard Goode Aerobatics 

Rhodds Farm 

Lyonshall 

Hereford 

HR5 3LW 

United Kingdom 

  

 Tel:   +44 (0) 1544 340120 begin_of_the_skype_highlighting              +44 (0) 1544 340120      end_of_the_skype_highlighting  

Fax:  +44 (0) 1544 340129 

www.russianaeros.com

Iâ€™m currently in Sri Lanka but this Mail is working,and my local phone is +94 779 132 160 begin_of_the_skype_highlighting              +94 779 132 160      end_of_the_skype_highlighting.

  

  

[quote]www.homebuilthelp.com</============  [b]

viperdoc(at)mindspring.co
Guest

Posted: Wed Dec 29, 2010 9:13 pm Post subject: 52 spinning

Do you have a smoke oil tank mounted aft of the rear seat? If so don't fly acro with it full and > 60 kg back seated and making the mistake of getting slow at high alpha with the addition of cross control. You may find yourself testing the in spin aileron recovery thing.

Doc

--

richard.goode(at)russiana
Guest

Posted: Wed Dec 29, 2010 9:37 pm Post subject: 52 spinning

I know of 4 cases where they have spun in.Usually  two-up since the rearward C og G greatly agravates the problem.And two where  they have jumped.

 But,to present a balanced picture,1800 or so  52s made and all of the ones in the East were doing aeros. and spinning  continuously,so thousands of spins in total.

 I would suggest that the TD is a bit better,without  the nose wheel,which adds to the inertia;most of them have much of the heavy  electronic kit removed from behind the rear seat,and most will have a bit of  fuel remaining in front of the spar [the long-range tanks] which will take C of  G a bit forward.But otherwise very similar!

 BUT,any significant amount of fuel left in the  tanks will exacerbate the problem,since,as you spin the fuel will go out board  and increase the rotational inertia.

 Richard Goode Aerobatics 

Rhodds Farm 

Lyonshall 

Hereford 

HR5  3LW 

United Kingdom 

  

 Tel:   +44 (0) 1544 340120 

Fax:  +44 (0) 1544 340129  

www.russianaeros.com

Iâ€™m  currently in Sri Lanka but this Mail is working,and my local phone is +94 779  132 160.

  

  

 [quote]   ---

richard.goode(at)russiana
Guest

Posted: Wed Dec 29, 2010 9:43 pm Post subject: 52 spinning

It is also worth adding that the MAXIMUM that the  Russians will allow in the rear cockpit of a 52 is 100 kilos [220 pounds]  and that includes parachute;clothing;any cushions etc.I suspect that in the land  of the Big Mac,there are a number of pilots/passengers in the rear cockpit who  are well over this!!!

  

 Richard Goode Aerobatics 

Rhodds Farm  

Lyonshall 

Hereford 

HR5 3LW 

United Kingdom 

  

 Tel:   +44 (0) 1544 340120 

Fax:   +44 (0) 1544 340129 

www.russianaeros.com

I’m currently in  Sri Lanka but this Mail is working,and my local phone is +94 779 132  160.

  

  

   [quote][b]

dsavarese0812(at)bellsout
Guest

Posted: Thu Dec 30, 2010 4:04 am Post subject: 52 spinning

As a footnote though Richard, the 100 kilos or 220 pounds in  the rear cockpit was with the Russian ADF and flight recorder still in  the airplane.

 Dennis

 [quote]   ---

richard.goode(at)russiana
Guest

Posted: Thu Dec 30, 2010 5:52 am Post subject: 52 spinning

Absolutely correct.  

   

Richard Goode Aerobatics 

 Rhodds Farm 

 Lyonshall 

 Hereford 

 HR5 3LW 

 United Kingdom   

   

Tel:   +44 (0) 1544 340120 

 Fax:  +44 (0) 1544 340129 

 www.russianaeros.com

 I’m currently in Sri Lanka but this Mail is working,and my local phone is +94 779 132 160.  

   

       

From: owner-yak-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-yak-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of A. Dennis Savarese

 Sent: 30 December 2010 12:01

 To: yak-list(at)matronics.com

 Subject: Re: 52 spinning  

  

  

     

As a footnote though Richard, the 100 kilos or 220 pounds in the rear cockpit was with the Russian ADF and flight recorder still in the airplane.  

    

Dennis  

   	  Quote: 	
		      

----- Original Message -----   

    

From: Richard.Goode (richard.goode(at)russianaeros.com)   

    

To: YAK USA LIST (yak-list(at)matronics.com)   

    

Sent: Wednesday, December 29, 2010 11:49 PM  

    

Subject: 52 spinning  

    

   

    

It is also worth adding that the MAXIMUM that the Russians will allow in the rear cockpit of a 52 is 100 kilos [220 pounds] and that includes parachute;clothing;any cushions etc.I suspect that in the land of the Big Mac,there are a number of pilots/passengers in the rear cockpit who are well over this!!!  

    

   

    

Richard Goode Aerobatics 

 Rhodds Farm 

 Lyonshall 

 Hereford 

 HR5 3LW 

 United Kingdom   

    

   

    

Tel:   +44 (0) 1544 340120 

 Fax:  +44 (0) 1544 340129 

 www.russianaeros.com

 I’m currently in Sri Lanka but this Mail is working,and my local phone is +94 779 132 160.  

    

   

    

   

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       [quote][b]

mikspin

Joined: 12 Aug 2007
Posts: 66

Posted: Thu Dec 30, 2010 7:45 am Post subject: Re: 52 spinning

Thanks Richard.  I echo your sentiments about getting the proper training from the right people.  The question was an academic one.



Continuing that, (Dennis chime in if you know), Would anyone happen to know the CG of the aircraft tested?

dsavarese0812(at)bellsout
Guest

Posted: Thu Dec 30, 2010 8:53 am Post subject: 52 spinning

If you're referring to the "Spins Unspun" article, the test  aircraft, according to the article, had a CG of 18% MAC, which is clearly a  forward CG.  As I remember, without digging into additional documentation,  the design CG range for the Yak 52 is 19-25% MAC.

 Dennis

 [quote]   ---

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