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Scotsman

Joined: 27 Aug 2007
Posts: 89
Location: Johannesburg, South Africa

Posted: Mon Jan 03, 2011 4:46 am Post subject: 650 Canopy/650 Canopy Upgrade

Hi List,



Just wanted to see what people experience is with fitting the 650 style canopy.  I have just attempted this and ended up with a nice cracked canopy as there is no way that the shape of the canopy roll will adhere to the shape of the aluminum tube with undue stress.  I have heard that other people had experienced this and had more joy with Todd's Canopies.



Anyway my question was whether the canopy feels flimsy or not when installed correctly?  Anyone's experience in this area?



Second question...on lifting the canopy it springs inwards slightly meaning that it will not close properly as it hits the top of the latch mechanism.  Anyone had this problem and what was your work around?



For your information - I have not yet installed the front canopy aluminum tube yet but at this point the canopy seems excessively fragile and I am not sure that this single piece will sufficiently firm up the canopy.



Any comments would be appreciated.



James

_________________
Cell +27 83 675 0815

steve.freeman(at)syntaxds
Guest

Posted: Mon Jan 03, 2011 6:47 am Post subject: 650 Canopy/650 Canopy Upgrade

Don H.



Why don't you take this one!    I know how much you loved installing your

canopy.



James, I have never heard of "Todd's Canopies" who/where are they located?



Thank you,

 

Steve Freeman



--

Scotsman

Joined: 27 Aug 2007
Posts: 89
Location: Johannesburg, South Africa

Posted: Mon Jan 03, 2011 7:41 am Post subject: Re: 650 Canopy/650 Canopy Upgrade

Hi Steve, these guy I think...http://www.toddscanopies.com/

_________________
Cell +27 83 675 0815

carlossa52(at)gmail.com
Guest

Posted: Mon Jan 03, 2011 8:04 am Post subject: 650 Canopy/650 Canopy Upgrade

As far as I know, Todd is now the ZAC official supplier of canopies - and you can get them only through ZAC. Todd will not sell a Zodie canopy directly...



Maybe James' is an old ZAC version, before this agreement was put in place?

  

I am going from memory here, you might find the original post in the archives.



Happy 2011

Carlos



On 3 January 2011 09:43, Steve Freeman <steve.freeman(at)syntaxds.com (steve.freeman(at)syntaxds.com)> wrote:

  [quote]--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Steve Freeman" <steve.freeman(at)syntaxds.com (steve.freeman(at)syntaxds.com)>

   

 Don H.

 

 Why don't you take this one!    I know how much you loved installing your

 canopy.

 

 James, I have never heard of "Todd's Canopies" who/where are they located?

 

 Thank you,

 

 Steve Freeman

[b]

craig(at)craigandjean.com
Guest

Posted: Mon Jan 03, 2011 9:45 am Post subject: 650 Canopy/650 Canopy Upgrade

Correct, all the 650 canopies are from Todd's. As to fragility I was able to build my pre-650, pre-Todd's 601XL canopy without cracking by building templates (front and back) so I could bend my bows to match the natural shape of the unrolled canopy to within a 1/4 of an inch. Also I cranked the heat up in my garage till I was sweating.  

   

-- Craig  

     

From: owner-zenith-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Carlos Sa

 Sent: Monday, January 03, 2011 8:01 AM

 To: zenith-list(at)matronics.com

 Subject: Re: 650 Canopy/650 Canopy Upgrade  

  

   



 As far as I know, Todd is now the ZAC official supplier of canopies - and you can get them only through ZAC. Todd will not sell a Zodie canopy directly...

 

 Maybe James' is an old ZAC version, before this agreement was put in place?

 

 I am going from memory here, you might find the original post in the archives.

 

 

 

 Happy 2011

 

 

 Carlos    

On 3 January 2011 09:43, Steve Freeman <steve.freeman(at)syntaxds.com (steve.freeman(at)syntaxds.com)> wrote:  

--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Steve Freeman" <steve.freeman(at)syntaxds.com (steve.freeman(at)syntaxds.com)>

 

 Don H.

 

 Why don't you take this one!    I know how much you loved installing your

 canopy.

 

 James, I have never heard of "Todd's Canopies" who/where are they located?

 

 Thank you,

 

 Steve Freeman  

  

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davgray(at)sbcglobal.net
Guest

Posted: Mon Jan 03, 2011 11:13 am Post subject: 650 Canopy/650 Canopy Upgrade

James



I used 1/2 inch copper rolled plumbing to make temporary templates to get 

the fit of the

the unrolled canopy to airframe match up.  Then bent the aluminum to match.

Also, on mine the edge clearance of some of the rear 5/16" mounting holes 

were within 7 mm of the edge.

I changed this by making new aluminum flashing side rails that were slightly 

higher than the original 75mm.

Mine were made at 95 mm that made the closest edge distance 27 mm.  I 

drilled the 5/16" holes with a step drill after heating the canopy indoors 

over a warm air heat register and applying very little pressure so the drill 

bit would generate a little additional heat as it worked.  It took about 10 

seconds to drill each hole without mishap.

No cracks.   In operation since Sept. 06.

As to the inward flexing of the canopy when open I installed a crossbar that 

works very well and can be seen at

http://picasaweb.google.com/Papawobo/Variations#

This also provides protection for the canopy when open in a higher wind and 

convenient closing.



Good Luck



Gary Ray, 601XL-B, WW 0.060 over Corvair Engine, Roy's 5th bearing, Falcon 

Heads, 155 hrs TTAF

--

jeffrey_davidson(at)earth
Guest

Posted: Mon Jan 03, 2011 11:25 am Post subject: 650 Canopy/650 Canopy Upgrade

James,

Mine is an XL canopy on an HD model.  It bows slightly outward.  I put handles on the inside to use to guide the canopy down onto the latch.  I have seen other planes with a horizontal bar across the aft part of the canopy itself to keep the "spread" constant.

Jeff D.

do not archive



--

paulrod36(at)msn.com
Guest

Posted: Mon Jan 03, 2011 2:51 pm Post subject: 650 Canopy/650 Canopy Upgrade

<?xml:namespace prefix="v" /><?xml:namespace prefix="o" /><![endif]-->  I bought two canopies (don't ask why) from Todd's Canopies down in Florida.  I scratch built my fuselage, and Todd's was a whole bunch cheaper.  I hear  Todd's is now the official vendor to Zenith, and the rumor is he no longer sells  Zenith canopies direct.  I will say he was a veritable fountain of  knowledge on canopies and cutting and fitting them on the phone. He's sort of  the Sensenich of canopies.

  

 Paul R

 [quote]   ---

PatrickW

Joined: 27 Oct 2006
Posts: 380
Location: Fort Worth, Texas

Posted: Mon Jan 03, 2011 6:31 pm Post subject: Re: 650 Canopy/650 Canopy Upgrade

I put a 650 canopy on an XL fuselage.  Here's pictures:  http://www.zenith.aero/photo/albums/canopy-1



It wasn't easy, but I think the canopy is the hardest part anyways. 



Never could get anywhere near a close fit between the plastic and the front top skin.  Had a gap big enough to put my arm through on each side, so I made a fiberglass fairing to cover it.  It actually came out quite nice.  



In hindsight, I bet if the fit were better I'd have been tempted to put pressure on it and would have ended up cracking it.....



I made new "hoops".  Also made a fiberglass fairing to cover the "split" between the front and rear sections, and made a single piece metal fairing for where the aft canopy section.  The two metal pieces that Zenith ships are nowhere near close.  Also had to modify the front top skin by cutting about an inch off each side, and cutting off the "ears".  Later I learned that the XL and the 650 are different in that area, and in all fairness I think I was one of the first guys to order the 650 canopy for the XL so things may be better by now.



I do plan on redesigning the whole canopy at some point.  Plenty of head room above, but not so much head room "on the side".  Long ways in the future, though, but I've already got some ideas....



Knowing what I know now, if I could go back in time I think I would just do the 650 latch system and stick with the simpler one-piece XL style canopy.



- Pat

Terry Phillips

Joined: 11 Jan 2006
Posts: 346
Location: Corvallis, MT

Posted: Mon Jan 03, 2011 7:26 pm Post subject: 650 Canopy/650 Canopy Upgrade

Hi James



 You might take a look at what Mirko did with his canopy. I believe that he used the original XL canopy. He added a new turtle deck, and cut the canopy to fit. I believe that he has posted some photos on the ZBAG photo site, as well as, a recent video on youtube. 



 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OtFpxzeCKkI



 I think it looks great, and he tells me it seals up well. I might try something similar.



 Terry



 

 At 04:46 AM 1/3/2011 -0800, you wrote:

  	  Quote: 	
		  Hi List,



 Just wanted to see what people experience is with fitting the 650 style canopy.  I have just attempted this and ended up with a nice cracked canopy as there is no way that the shape of the canopy roll will adhere to the shape of the aluminum tube with undue stress.  I have heard that other people had experienced this and had more joy with Todd's Canopies.



 Anyway my question was whether the canopy feels flimsy or not when installed correctly?  Anyone's experience in this area?



 Second question...on lifting the canopy it springs inwards slightly meaning that it will not close properly as it hits the top of the latch mechanism.  Anyone had this problem and what was your work around?



 For your information - I have not yet installed the front canopy aluminum tube yet but at this point the canopy seems excessively fragile and I am not sure that this single piece will sufficiently firm up the canopy.



 Any comments would be appreciated.



 James

 	
 

 

 Terry Phillips 

 ttp44~at~rkymtn.net

 Corvallis MT

 ZU-601XL/Jab 3300 s .. l .. o .. o .. w build kit - Tail & flaps are done; 

 Upgrading wings & ailerons per the AMD Safety Directive

 http://www.mykitlog.com/N47TP/     [quote][b]

_________________
Terry Phillips
Corvallis, MT
ttp44<at>rkymtn.net
Zenith 601XL/Jab 3300 slow build kit - Tail feathers done; working on the wings.

Scotsman

Joined: 27 Aug 2007
Posts: 89
Location: Johannesburg, South Africa

Posted: Mon Jan 03, 2011 8:55 pm Post subject: Re: 650 Canopy/650 Canopy Upgrade

Thanks very much for the rapid replies guys.  Unfortunately unless I want to buy another canopy I cannot bend the hoops so I am stuck with what I have.



For me I think the solution lies with copying Patrick's approach which incidentally looks far better than the original set up.  Suppose I will have to learn about fibreglassing!



FYI - My canopy is quite recent as the upgrade kit canopy kit is about 5 months since I imported it.  I am quite irritated by the canopy hoops.  As far as I can see Zenith does not specify that the hoops will have to be bent by the builder otherwise why supply them pre-bent or at least supply instructions indicating that bending has to take place.  I would assume that Zenith bent the hoops on a template and therefore the template must be incorrect.

_________________
Cell +27 83 675 0815

steve.freeman(at)syntaxds
Guest

Posted: Mon Jan 03, 2011 9:40 pm Post subject: 650 Canopy/650 Canopy Upgrade

Hey there,



You are by far not the first person to lament the lack of fit for the tubes

to the canopy.  My buddy Don who built a beautiful 601HDS said the Canopy

was by far the most difficult part of the plane.  He still gripes about it

today and even has the templates he made to re-bend straight stock he had

purchased to get a better fit.



I am actually a little disappointed because I am now building a 650B and I

was hoping they had improved on the canopy...it does not seem that is the

case from all I have read today.



One point of caution...On the 601HDS I previously built...I tried and failed

(miserably) to create my own fiberglass front tilt based on George Pineo's

design.  If I had the knowledge then that I have now I think I would have

done a far better job but I totally destroyed a canopy which played a major

role in my decision to sell my 95+% plus finished plane (now flying down

under in OZ!) to a flying group in Australia. After I effed up the canopy I

lost the heart to finish the plane even though all that was left was the

canopy, rigging, and re-wiring the panel. I think less than 100 hours but

there is more to the story and won't bore you all with the details!



MY point in telling you this is just to warn you to be very careful and take

your time.  Learn how to do glass well before you start building molds on

your airframe. Try not to get frustrated and understand all of the other

builders seem to have gone through this. 



ZAC really should do something about improving this set up but don't hold

your breath and good luck getting any useful information out of them.



But to be fair...If your fuselage is built even a little bit "off plans" it

would be virtually impossible for ZAC to provide a perfect fit canopy.

Because of this, I think it might be an unspoken truism that we are forced

to fit the canopy to our individual airframes.



Just my two cents - for whatever it is worth.



Steve (650B - 902AL) Freeman

Working on Fuselage

I have the factory made upgraded spars.  They are a great deal "beefier"

than what I installed in my HDS.



Do not archive

chuck960

Joined: 11 Mar 2009
Posts: 44
Location: PA

Posted: Mon Jan 03, 2011 10:40 pm Post subject: Re: 650 Canopy/650 Canopy Upgrade

Whats wrong with you guys? My 650 canopy fits quite nicely. Looks good too.

Well actually it is the second plexy as I ruined the first one, (Expensive mistake) and I broke one of the hoops and had to bend a new one from scratch. And it's not really finished yet as it's clecoed together.

    In hindsight I think the one piece of information I needed that may have enabled me to do it right the first time was this. THE HOOPS MUST BE BENT TO MATCH THE NATURAL SHAPE OF THE PLEXYGLASS. The hoops in my kit were not even close in my opinion and I thought the plastic would give a little. Not!!

Also there in only one way it fits. I mean you can't trim too much off one end and make it up on the other. But it does fit well if done correctly. 

I was upset but maybe it's just that I needed a practice piece to figure out how to do it well. 

I wonder how many hours ZAC spent on the phone over the years trying to explain how to do a canopy. 

A few hours spent putting together some instructions would have been time well spent.

Chuck

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psm(at)att.net
Guest

Posted: Tue Jan 04, 2011 12:49 am Post subject: 650 Canopy/650 Canopy Upgrade

Why do you say you cannot bend the hoops yourself?  It isn't so hard to do.



If you fill the tubes with sand (cap the ends after filling with wood 

plugs) you can bend the shape you want or modify the shape already bent 

into the tubes.  A small fixture in a bench vise makes this a relatively 

easy task.  Like most things if you just do a little bit at a time you 

will eventually get where you want to go.  A template drawn on a piece 

of scrap plywood (from a shipping crate?) can easily be matched.



I would have included a photo of a small tube bending jig with this 

message, but I couldn't find one with a quick look through my computer.  

If anyone wants a picture, just email me and I will take a picture of 

one of my jigs in the shop.



Paul

XL working on fuselage upgrade

On 1/3/2011 8:55 PM, Scotsman wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   



 Thanks very much for the rapid replies guys.  Unfortunately unless I want to buy another canopy I cannot bend the hoops so I am stuck with what I have.



 For me I think the solution lies with copying Patrick's approach which incidentally looks far better than the original set up.  Suppose I will have to learn about fibreglassing!



 FYI - My canopy is quite recent as the upgrade kit canopy kit is about 5 months since I imported it.  I am quite irritated by the canopy hoops.  As far as I can see Zenith does not specify that the hoops will have to be bent by the builder otherwise why supply them pre-bent or at least supply instructions indicating that bending has to take place.  I would assume that Zenith bent the hoops on a template and therefore the template must be incorrect.



 --------

 Cell   +27 83 675 0815





 Read this topic online here:



 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=325524#325524

skyriderekm

Joined: 28 Feb 2009
Posts: 10

Posted: Tue Jan 04, 2011 4:43 am Post subject: Re: 650 Canopy/650 Canopy Upgrade

James and Lister,



I bought this DVD back awhile ago.  When I picked up my fuselage kit,  Zenith didn't have any instructions as to how to fit the new style Todd's canopy to my CH650.  I haven't put on my canopy yet.



Take a look at this link:  



http://www.homebuilthelp.com/CH601XL/601CanopyConversion.htm



I hope this helps a few fellas.  

 

Tailwinds and Blue Skies Always,



Larry Hursh

Edwardsburg, Michigan



CH650 - Working on 2nd wing of the Upgrade

Will be 2700 Corvair Powered

Scotsman

Joined: 27 Aug 2007
Posts: 89
Location: Johannesburg, South Africa

Posted: Tue Jan 04, 2011 12:09 pm Post subject: Re: 650 Canopy/650 Canopy Upgrade

Hi Paul,



I can't bend the hoops as I have already drilled a number of holes it them and according to several of the guys bending hoops with holes equals broken hoops (see the Zenith Aero posts on the same subject).

_________________
Cell +27 83 675 0815

Scotsman

Joined: 27 Aug 2007
Posts: 89
Location: Johannesburg, South Africa

Posted: Tue Jan 04, 2011 12:16 pm Post subject: Re: 650 Canopy/650 Canopy Upgrade

Hi Larry,



I used the Home Built Help DVD but unfortunately it didn't mention the bending of the hoops to fit the canopy shape (not that I saw anyway) hence the reason I assumed (the mother of xxxxxs) that the canopy could safely be bent to the shape of the frame.



Why don't ZAC save themselves and their customers the agro and actually bend the hoops somewhere close to the canopy curve and write a four page picture guide on how to fine tune them.  Not impressed with ZAC...surely on the most expensive single item (and arguably most complex) instructions are appropriate or rather leave the tubes straight to indicate that we must bend them ourselves.....grrrrr

_________________
Cell +27 83 675 0815

psm(at)att.net
Guest

Posted: Tue Jan 04, 2011 12:25 pm Post subject: 650 Canopy/650 Canopy Upgrade

I agree that you will have problems bending tubes with holes.



On the other hand you can buy some new tubing and bend it to replace 

your current tube.  The aluminum isn't all that expensive . . .   I 

would guess the shipping on the tube would be more than the cost for the 

aluminum.



Paul



P.S.  I have been scratch building a Wittman Buttercup.  This is an 

exercise in bending and welding aircraft steel tubes of all sizes.  I 

have lots of experience doing the bending and also scrapping some of my 

work and replacing it with new pieces.  Funny thing . . . I had to scrap 

lots of pieces of my Zodiac XL even though it came from a kit.  For me, 

that is part of amateur airplane building.



On 1/4/2011 12:09 PM, Scotsman wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   



 Hi Paul,



 I can't bend the hoops as I have already drilled a number of holes it them and according to several of the guys bending hoops with holes equals broken hoops (see the Zenith Aero posts on the same subject).   [Crying or Very sad]



 --------

 Cell   +27 83 675 0815





 Read this topic online here:



 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=325581#325581

chuck960

Joined: 11 Mar 2009
Posts: 44
Location: PA

Posted: Tue Jan 04, 2011 1:07 pm Post subject: Re: 650 Canopy/650 Canopy Upgrade

The first hoop I tried to bend had 1/8" holes drilled in it and it snapped right at the hole.

If you screw blocks of wood to your bench you can get the leverage to bend the tubing and it's not that hard. I made a template from plywood and screwed it to my bench. The form was the shape that I thought the hoop should be. I didn't use it for bending only as a reference.

Chuck

heatonhe36(at)msn.com
Guest

Posted: Tue Jan 04, 2011 9:21 pm Post subject: 650 Canopy/650 Canopy Upgrade

Try this section of the Zenith website 601XL photo guides.  It should give 

you a few ideas on how the tubes are matched to the canopy. 

http://www.zenithair.com/zodiac/xl/data/6-c-3a.pdf



Good luck,

Herb

---

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