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Need the type of material for front wing spar (Sparweb, Ste

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wcurtis(at)nerv10.com
Guest

Posted: Sat Jan 08, 2011 11:08 am Post subject: Need the type of material for front wing spar (Sparweb, Ste

Vijay,



For this type of mission, IMHO, you are probably better of building a

large fuselage tank rather than messing with the wing tanks or

structure.  In 2004 I followed the exploits of an "Earthrounder" in

his Cessna 210.  It was a standard 210 wtih a large fuselage mounted

fuel tank and custom pumping system.



http://www.N30EW.com/Moreplanepics.htm



Fuselage tanks add less localized stress and are easier to engineer

than adding/modyfing the wing tanks/structure.



I have added some extra plumbing in my aircraft just in case I wanted

some "additional range" I can add a fuselage mounted tank which can

later be removed.



http://wcurtis.nerv10.com/9XOther/RV10FuelPlumb.pdf



-- 

William

N40237 - http://wcurtis.nerv10.com/

On Sat, Jan 8, 2011 at 7:46 AM, Vijay Pisini <vijaypisini(at)yahoo.com> wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   



 It is not appropriate if I do not mention as to why I need it.  So here it

 goes...the mission is Around The World in RV-10.  I shared this info with fellow

 RV-10 builders at OSH'10 Camp Scholler.  Neil Colliver gave good piece of

 information (through email, though he suggested not to make a major mod such as

 this for various reasons) and Bob Condrey encouraged/insisted on running the

 numbers first before going forward with outboard tank idea.  Obviously as

 everyone on this list knows that Van's doesn't want to give any engineering info

 on this.

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ncol(at)xtra.co.nz
Guest

Posted: Sat Jan 08, 2011 11:44 am Post subject: Need the type of material for front wing spar (Sparweb, Ste

I would agree.

You just cannot guarantee the stresses you will encounter as the wx cannot be guaranteed. It's not just landing where you can get negative G. Would you purchase a plane not knowing if it had been overstressed?

I agree with William - add a fuselage ferry tank. An easy mod. Ties down & restraint is also easy. Gravity fed fuel. Easy to remove. On long trips easy and simple = safe.

I had long discussions with Vans. They did not say it would not work, but gave me sufficient reasons not to do it that way if there was any other way it could be done.

Neil

On 9/01/2011, at 8:05 AM, William Curtis wrote:

 	  Quote: 	

 Vijay,

 For this type of mission, IMHO, you are probably better of building a

 large fuselage tank rather than messing with the wing tanks or

 structure.  In 2004 I followed the exploits of an "Earthrounder" in

 his Cessna 210.  It was a standard 210 wtih a large fuselage mounted

 fuel tank and custom pumping system.

 http://www.N30EW.com/Moreplanepics.htm

 Fuselage tanks add less localized stress and are easier to engineer

 than adding/modyfing the wing tanks/structure.

 I have added some extra plumbing in my aircraft just in case I wanted

 some "additional range" I can add a fuselage mounted tank which can

 later be removed.

 http://wcurtis.nerv10.com/9XOther/RV10FuelPlumb.pdf

 -- 

 William

 N40237 - http://wcurtis.nerv10.com/

 On Sat, Jan 8, 2011 at 7:46 AM, Vijay Pisini <vijaypisini(at)yahoo.com> wrote:

> 

> 

> It is not appropriate if I do not mention as to why I need it.  So here it

> goes...the mission is Around The World in RV-10.  I shared this info with fellow

> RV-10 builders at OSH'10 Camp Scholler.  Neil Colliver gave good piece of

> information (through email, though he suggested not to make a major mod such as

> this for various reasons) and Bob Condrey encouraged/insisted on running the

> numbers first before going forward with outboard tank idea.  Obviously as

> everyone on this list knows that Van's doesn't want to give any engineering info

> on this.

>

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wcurtis(at)nerv10.com
Guest

Posted: Sat Jan 08, 2011 12:10 pm Post subject: Need the type of material for front wing spar (Sparweb, Ste

Also, I think in was in an RVator article a while back, where I

believe Ken Krueger alluded (reluctantly) that “if you had to add

extra fuel capacity” to an RV, add temporary fuselage tanks rather

that additional fuel in the wings.  This was because additional mass

in the wings can add unpredictable negative spin characteristics to

the aircraft.



-- 

William

N40237 - http://wcurtis.nerv10.com/



On Sat, Jan 8, 2011 at 2:40 PM, Neil & Sarah Colliver <ncol(at)xtra.co.nz> wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   



 I would agree.



 You just cannot guarantee the stresses you will encounter as the wx cannot be guaranteed. It's not just landing where you can get negative G. Would you purchase a plane not knowing if it had been overstressed?



 I agree with William - add a fuselage ferry tank. An easy mod. Ties down & restraint is also easy. Gravity fed fuel. Easy to remove. On long trips easy and simple = safe.



 I had long discussions with Vans. They did not say it would not work, but gave me sufficient reasons not to do it that way if there was any other way it could be done.



 Neil

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AV8ORJWC

Joined: 13 Jul 2006
Posts: 1149
Location: Aurora, Oregon "Home of VANS"

Posted: Sat Jan 08, 2011 2:08 pm Post subject: Need the type of material for front wing spar (Sparweb, Ste

This is a most valuable thread for RV-10 builders and certainly interesting.  First, I don't believe either Ken Krueger (not to be confused with Ken Scott) will give any builder written guidance or state such a modification as "VANS acceptable". Some will then pipe up, "This is why we are building Experimental Kit Approved". Is this an initial construction feature (before Airworthiness Authorization) during the build or is this a Mod to an approved FAA kit that has flown?  Extended Range Tanks whether Temporary (removable) or permanent structural modification are issues beyond all but a few of VANS clients.  Good Luck Kelly with the guy from the Big Company. Most know on this list I love modifications during initial build.

  

 If the tanks seen at SNF were indeed John Nys, then Jesse and a few others on this list might just remember our review of his products a few years back at OSH.  Get his DER's approval so it is U.S. of A, FAA compliant.  Oh yeh, since it is not Certificated, get Joe Norris of the EAA to give their blessing.  If a builder in another country tackles the task get your country's aviation authority approval. Consider Spin Testing and Wing Loading Tests as well.  Here on this side of the pond, FAA regulations were altered at the behest of the DEA (Drug Enforcement Agency) to document or invalidate approved airworthiness certificates when someone tries to modify the mission by extending the fuel supply.  Don't get me wrong, I am all for the Colliver's effort and for others to take this model on a globe trotting tour. I also want them to come back and share the journey with us without a Dan Lloyd type moment.  Tank placement, fuel flow, structural considerations and metallurgy go far beyond a takeoff and landing under normal "Utility" considerations.  3.8 g's and a 1.5x safety factor might be placing the test pilot in unintended outcomes.  The fact that this unintended load is over the arbitrary CG point is not as relevant and it sounds.

  

 I actually trained pilots back decades ago to make the Round the World Balloon Crossing a reality.  One effort toward that dream fell short when the pilot (Steve Fossett) ran into a Thunderstorm in the Southern Hemisphere.  By the way he did finally make it but lost his life years later on a routine flight out here on the west coast.  Another friend and a copilot were lost in a thunderstorm over the Med just a few months ago in the Gordon Bennett reenactment.  That was Ben Abruzzo's son Richard.  Ben was the first to cross the Atlantic in the Double Eagle II and then died when his twin engine aircraft ran out of gas months later. Maxie Anderson was another from the Double Eagle II flight at went west after a flight with Don Ida over Germany. Mother Nature awaits the daring in all of us.  Plan for arriving wiser and more humble.

  

 High wing loading during CAT (clear air turbulence) or control surface flutter at higher TAS (a passionate topic for K. Scott) could bring additional excitement to the pursuit.

  

 The wingspar in the RV-10 (a design extended from an earlier smaller VANS aircraft), its web and its extension do not lend themselves to such a needed successful conclusion.  Just because someone can do it, has done it, and has not YET had a problem doe not assure that you could ever get it approved following existing regulations and proper airworthiness channels.  Let us know if it is successful.   Our prayers and aspirations will be with you.

  

 Good Luck, land safely with all passengers aboard.

  



  John Cox



 

  

  

--> RV10-List message posted by: William Curtis <wcurtis(at)nerv10.com>



Also, I think in was in an RVator article a while back, where I

believe Ken Krueger alluded (reluctantly) that “if you had to add

extra fuel capacity” to an RV, add temporary fuselage tanks rather

that additional fuel in the wings.  This was because additional mass

in the wings can add unpredictable negative spin characteristics to

the aircraft.



--

William

N40237 - http://wcurtis.nerv10.com/



On Sat, Jan 8, 2011 at 2:40 PM, Neil & Sarah Colliver <ncol(at)xtra.co.nz> wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   --> RV10-List message posted by: Neil & Sarah Colliver <ncol(at)xtra.co.nz>



 I would agree.



 You just cannot guarantee the stresses you will encounter as the wx cannot be guaranteed. It's not just landing where you can get negative G. Would you purchase a plane not knowing if it had been overstressed?



 I agree with William - add a fuselage ferry tank. An easy mod. Ties down & restraint is also easy. Gravity fed fuel. Easy to remove. On long trips easy and simple = safe.



 I had long discussions with Vans. They did not say it would not work, but gave me sufficient reasons not to do it that way if there was any other way it could be done.



 p;       - The RV10-List Email Forum href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List">http://www.matronic--> http://forums.matronics.com

p;         - List Contribution bsp;                    -Matt Dralle, List href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c=================
	






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vijaypisini(at)yahoo.com
Guest

Posted: Sat Jan 08, 2011 2:22 pm Post subject: Need the type of material for front wing spar (Sparweb, Ste

William,



Thanks for the reply.  I just sent in a reply in response to DLM's email where I 

cited the CG problems with all additional fuel in ferry tanks in the cockpit.



Yes, for the past 1.5 years I've been reading all of the material available on 

"earthrounders.net" site.  Read 5 books by earthrounders so far including Jon 

Johanson's book, Carol-Anne Garrett's two books (I met her as well).



While going overweight in couple of legs, wind gust will pose a serious stress 

concentration at the fuselage and wing joint in ferry tank option compared to 

outboard tank option.



My mission most likely will not be one-off round the world trip.  I'll be using 

long range tanks apart from that trip.  According to my fuel management design, 

I'll have 4 fuel selector valves in the cockpit.  I'll share this information in 

another email or probably I'll update my website with all this info with 

diagrams etc.

vj



---

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vijaypisini(at)yahoo.com
Guest

Posted: Sat Jan 08, 2011 2:45 pm Post subject: Need the type of material for front wing spar (Sparweb, Ste

Neil,



Thanks for the reply and opinion.  I'm not too much worried about someone buying 

my plane sometime later (if at all).  The risks of concentrated stresses are 

there in both the options (options being all additional fuel in ferry tanks in 

the cockpit versus some fuel in the outboard tanks).  Unexpected wind gust is a 

serious issue to me while being overweight with cockpit ferry tank fuel.  If I 

engineer the outboard tank correctly, that will be the way to go in my opinion.  

I have a good fuel flow management design with (60 original + 60 outboard + 20 

right seat ferry tank + 85 rear seat ferry tank).



Also, I'm not too much worried about landing the plane with outboard tank fuel 

because that will only be in emergency only which I can deal with once I'm 

safely on ground.



Modification to fit the outboard tanks in my opinion is not an issue though it 

is not all that easy...and I'm prepared for it.  There are around 20 RV-X's with 

outboard tanks.  Some are non removable tanks and some are removable tanks.  

I'll be making them as removable (for maintenance when needed) tanks.

vj



---

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wwc4(at)njit.edu
Guest

Posted: Sat Jan 08, 2011 4:22 pm Post subject: Need the type of material for front wing spar (Sparweb, Ste

Vijay,



Remember the existing wing structure (as with most non fighter wing

designs) is designed to carry up to gross weight primarily in FUSELAGE

load, not load out in the wing.  This is why the wing structure is

massive at the root and gets thinner as it goes outboard.  All things

being equal,  you would need to beef up the outboard wing structure to

carry to SAME amount of additional fuel in the wings as you would in

the fuselage.  Aircraft designed from the ground up with tip tanks

take this into consideration.  Aircraft that get gross weight increase

with additional tip tanks also include additional wing area.



My point is, to carry 500 pounds of fuel in the rear seat positions

requires NO modifications as this is no different that carrying two

large rear seat passengers.  Carrying an extra 500 pounds in the wings

however is definitely different than what the structure was designed

for—which is why you are seeking to modify it.  With fuselage tanks,

no wing modifications are required, with wing tanks you are definitely

putting more load in places not designed for it with the standard

wings.



Then you have to ask yourself, If I’m not using the rear seats for

fuel in these extended range trips, what do I use that space for?

Would I really want to carry passengers or cargo in the fuselage with

the additional fuel out in the wing?  How much over gross do I want to

go?



If you can’t use the fuselage space for anything else;

If the wing tanks require re-engineering of the wing while fuselage

tanks do not;  With these points the solution for some is obvious.



Lastly, I think the longest (time) I’ve flown in a piston single was 5

hours 20 minutes.  I was operating at about 145 kts at about 8.5

gal/hour and landed with about 12 gallons remaining from a 60 gallon

capacity.  I’m not sure if you have flown long legs in piston singles

but unless you were doing it for a particular purpose (like an

Earthrounder) after doing it a few times, you will NOT make a regular

habit of it.  You will want to land and take a break even if you do

not need fuel and even if you have the best autopilot in the world.



-- 

William

N40237 - http://wcurtis.nerv10.com/

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ncol(at)xtra.co.nz
Guest

Posted: Sat Jan 08, 2011 5:04 pm Post subject: Need the type of material for front wing spar (Sparweb, Ste

Hi VJ



whoa!



That makes 225 gallons x 6lbs / gal = 1350lbs fuel.



Add in the pilot, probably oxygen, a proper life raft, some tools, a couple of spares, some oil, a first aid kit, HF radio, an immersion suit for N Atlantic, and may be a change of cloths, maps, computer, water for in flight, water for emergency ditching, food likewise.



Unless you fill the remainder of the aircraft with hydrogen / helium, you are going to be way way weigh over gross.



And there is no way you are ever going to need that much fuel if you run LOP. You only need 2200nm range + reserve. Pick the weather.



Please do as William & Vans suggested - a large ferry tank in co-pilot seat / rear seats. Do the C of G calcs properly.



Neil

On 9/01/2011, at 11:35 AM, Vijay Pisini wrote:



[quote] 

 

 Neil,

 

 Thanks for the reply and opinion.  I'm not too much worried about someone buying 

 my plane sometime later (if at all).  The risks of concentrated stresses are 

 there in both the options (options being all additional fuel in ferry tanks in 

 the cockpit versus some fuel in the outboard tanks).  Unexpected wind gust is a 

 serious issue to me while being overweight with cockpit ferry tank fuel.  If I 

 engineer the outboard tank correctly, that will be the way to go in my opinion.  

 I have a good fuel flow management design with (60 original + 60 outboard + 20 

 right seat ferry tank + 85 rear seat ferry tank).

 

 Also, I'm not too much worried about landing the plane with outboard tank fuel 

 because that will only be in emergency only which I can deal with once I'm 

 safely on ground.

 

 Modification to fit the outboard tanks in my opinion is not an issue though it 

 is not all that easy...and I'm prepared for it.  There are around 20 RV-X's with 

 outboard tanks.  Some are non removable tanks and some are removable tanks.  

 I'll be making them as removable (for maintenance when needed) tanks.

 

 

 vj

 

 ---

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