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Corvair - where to get one?

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Clemens

Joined: 05 Jan 2011
Posts: 4
Location: Austria

Posted: Thu Jan 06, 2011 2:00 am Post subject: Corvair - where to get one?

Hello Listers,

I am from austria and building a 601XLB from plans.



Now I have started looking around which engine to use and I think I like the corvair at most. 

My problem now is how to get one. As I mentioned I live in Austria - the home of the Rotax, VW and BMW engines. I think there is no way to get a corvair core here in my country. I found that aeromax sells engine kit packages with the fifth bearing for 7500$. What do you think of it? - I can not find much about aeromax customers in internet.

I recognized that obviously William Wayne is the "Corvair Guru" but I dont know if he also sell engine kit packages like aeromax. 

It would be nice to hear some inputs from you and sorry for my bad english.

raymondj(at)frontiernet.n
Guest

Posted: Thu Jan 06, 2011 3:10 am Post subject: Corvair - where to get one?

Greetings Clemens,



No need to apologize for your english, it's better than my "Austrian" 



I can't offer any direct answers to your question.



Try the CorvAircraft list. There are many more people and experts.



http://www.krnet.org/corvaircraft_inst.html



I'll see you there.



Raymond Julian

Kettle River, MN



On 01/06/2011 04:00 AM, Clemens wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   



 Hello Listers,

 I am from austria and building a 601XLB from plans.



 Now I have started looking around which engine to use and I think I like the corvair at most.

 My problem now is how to get one. As I mentioned I live in Austria - the home of the Rotax, VW and BMW engines. I think there is no way to get a corvair core here in my country. I found that aeromax sells engine kit packages with the fifth bearing for 7500$. What do you think of it? - I can not find much about aeromax customers in internet.

 I recognized that obviously William Wayne is the "Corvair Guru" but I dont know if he also sell engine kit packages like aeromax.

 It would be nice to hear some inputs from you and sorry for my bad english.





 Read this topic online here:



 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=325771#325771

Clemens

Joined: 05 Jan 2011
Posts: 4
Location: Austria

Posted: Thu Jan 06, 2011 5:18 am Post subject: Re: Corvair - where to get one?

Hello Julian,

thanks for the info with the CorvAircraft list. I will try my luck there.

boyerjrb(at)comcast.net
Guest

Posted: Thu Jan 06, 2011 10:36 am Post subject: Corvair - where to get one?

Hello Clemens,

William  Wynne sells corvair engines ready to run and pre-runs them at his facility to make sure they are running correctly. William is a known good quantity I would check with him first about any Corvair part or question. I did in fact as I bought many of the parts for my Corvair engine from William.

Good luck getting a core in Austria or shipped to Austria.

Jim

---

Clemens

Joined: 05 Jan 2011
Posts: 4
Location: Austria

Posted: Thu Jan 06, 2011 10:52 am Post subject: Re: Corvair - where to get one?

Tahnks Jim.

I will contact William Wynne and buy some of his manuals now.

Regards

MRus597999(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Fri Jan 07, 2011 10:40 pm Post subject: Corvair - where to get one?

A better source for good parts, like new cranks, light weight cylinders,  etc is at magnificentmachine.com. I talked to him last weekend and first met him  in Livermore at a Corvair College. Wynne is good but this guy has got even  better stuff. You want fuel injection, new not used cranks, etc. See this  guy, he can build you a bullet proof engine far stronger than any thing Wynne  can build.

  

 Mike Russell

  

  In a message dated 1/6/2011 3:10:38 A.M. Pacific Standard Time,  raymondj(at)frontiernet.net writes:

  	  Quote: 	
		  -->    CorvairEngines-List message posted by: rayj    <raymondj(at)frontiernet.net>



Greetings Clemens,



No need to    apologize for your english, it's better than my "Austrian" 



I can't    offer any direct answers to your question.



Try the CorvAircraft list.    There are many more people and    experts.



http://www.krnet.org/corvaircraft_inst.html



I'll see    you there.



Raymond Julian

Kettle River, MN



On 01/06/2011    04:00 AM, Clemens wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   -->  CorvairEngines-List message    posted by: "Clemens"<clemens.wohlmuth(at)austrian.com>



    Hello Listers,

 I am from austria and building a 601XLB from    plans.



 Now I have started looking around which engine to use    and I think I like the corvair at most.

 My problem now is how to get    one. As I mentioned I live in Austria - the home of the Rotax, VW and BMW    engines. I think there is no way to get a corvair core here in my country. I    found that aeromax sells engine kit packages with the fifth bearing for 7500$.    What do you think of it? - I can not find much about aeromax customers in    internet.

 I recognized that obviously William Wayne is the "Corvair    Guru" but I dont know if he also sell engine kit packages like    aeromax.

 It would be nice to hear some inputs from you and sorry for    my bad english.





 Read this topic online    here:



    http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=325771#325771





_-= Use   utilities  Day  ================================================               - MATRONICS WEB FORUMS  ================================================             - List Contribution Web Site  sp;                             ===================================================
	




	


  [quote][b]

dix39(at)charter.net
Guest

Posted: Sat Jan 08, 2011 11:35 am Post subject: Corvair - where to get one?

I feel I have to respond to this post to clarify, as I understand  it, the positions Wynne and Magnificent Machine occupy with regard to  Corvair flight engines.  I attended the Corvair College about a year  ago held at Magnificent Machine.  I am a long time follower of William  Wynne who has devoted a very significant part of his life to the  development of a safe conversion of Corvair engines for use in aircraft.   IMHO, anyone planning to convert a Corvair engine for aircraft use  should take advantage of the testing and research he has done.  His book,  "Corvair Flight Engines",  contains a wealth of information about Corvair  engines and how to convert them.  I wholeheartedly agree with all that  has been said about Magnificent Machine, but they, and others, are only building  on the decades of work that has been done by William Wynne.

  

 Steve Dixon  

 [quote]   ---

sblack

Joined: 14 Aug 2010
Posts: 21

Posted: Sat Jan 08, 2011 1:02 pm Post subject: Corvair - where to get one?

Magnificent machine's website says their cranks are NOT currently  available. They also say that they expect flight test data soon i.e they have  none right now. Their other parts are much the same as WW's. WW has built  hundreds of flight engines, has torn down many high time engines and  knows it inside out and backwards, having been around for 20 years or  so and has never offered anything for sale before it has been flight  tested. So I don't see how you can say that MM can build a better engine far  stronger etc with no flight test history. WW has knowledge and experience and  all his parts are available now. With the 5th bearing and a nitrided crank his  engines have been shown to be very robust in service.

  

 Scott

 [quote]   ---

_________________
Scott Black
Montreal
Jodel F11 O-200

raymondj(at)frontiernet.n
Guest

Posted: Sat Jan 08, 2011 5:46 pm Post subject: Corvair - where to get one?

Hello again Clemens,



I've been watching for you on CorvAircraft. Just wondering if you're 

having any trouble getting signed up or if there is anything else I 

could offer assistance with.



Raymond Julian

Kettle River, MN.

U.S.A.



On 01/06/2011 07:18 AM, Clemens wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   



 Hello Julian,

 thanks for the info with the CorvAircraft list. I will try my luck there.





 Read this topic online here:



 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=325776#325776

raymondj(at)frontiernet.n
Guest

Posted: Sat Jan 08, 2011 5:54 pm Post subject: Corvair - where to get one?

Sorry, can't find the rewind button on the email, so please ignore this.



Raymond Julian

Kettle River, MN



On 01/08/2011 07:43 PM, rayj wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   



 Hello again Clemens,



 I've been watching for you on CorvAircraft. Just wondering if you're

 having any trouble getting signed up or if there is anything else I

 could offer assistance with.



 Raymond Julian

 Kettle River, MN.

 U.S.A.



 On 01/06/2011 07:18 AM, Clemens wrote:

> 

> "Clemens"<clemens.wohlmuth(at)austrian.com>

>

> Hello Julian,

> thanks for the info with the CorvAircraft list. I will try my luck there.

>

>

> Read this topic online here:

>

> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=325776#325776

>

>

dix39(at)charter.net
Guest

Posted: Tue Jan 11, 2011 1:59 pm Post subject: Corvair - where to get one?

I don't think anyone is "married" to WW.  For my part, I was only  trying to give credit where I thought credit was due, and point out in  response to the post below that there were alternatives to MM.  How one  chooses to build an engine is up to them, but IMHO they should proceed  using the best information and parts (tested?) available.

  

 As I see it, the folks at MM are machinists with an interest in  aviation, WW is an A&P with an interest in converting Corvair engines  for aircraft use.  MM became a LLC in 2007, WW has been doing his thing for  several decades.  WW has an excellent manual/book, and many years of  Corvair College that are available online.  I don't know of anyone else  that can provide this much information.  Also, I don't know of anyone who  has the $ or time to test a Corvair crankshaft as well as GM.    

  

 It was pointed out that there have been crankshaft failures in Corvairs  when used on aircraft and this is primarily because they were not designed to  withstand the gyroscopic and other forces exerted on them in flight.  All  one has to do is look at the differences in the crankshaft support of  an engine designed for flight and one designed for automotive use and the  reason for this is readily apparent.  Aircraft engines have a huge main  bearing nearest the prop to handle these forces.  Adding the "fifth  bearing" was a large step in the right direction to address this deficiency  in the Corvair.  

  

 One last thought.  I always had the idea that homebuilding and  engine conversions were done, at least in part, to reduce the cost of  flying.  This seems to be sometimes forgotten, or perhaps not a  factor.  While I believe the Corvair is an excellent automotive engine and  a good aircraft engine, it is difficult to beat the reliability of an engine  designed for aircraft use when money is not a factor.

  

 Steve Dixon

  

 ---

sblack

Joined: 14 Aug 2010
Posts: 21

Posted: Tue Jan 11, 2011 4:09 pm Post subject: Corvair - where to get one?

Regarding used crankshafts, it is not the fact that they are used that has caused the failures. They could have 300,000 miles on them but I would bet a lot of money that none of them had cracks in front of the #6 bearing when removed from the car and none have failed in cars at that location. And if these cranks had been brand new GM stock and subjected to those loads they likely would fail as well eventually. We know this now because of the work that WW has done and made public for the benefit of the community. 

  

 http://flycorvair.com/crankissues.html

  

 There is also no guarantee that a new billet crank will be any better in this regard. It might last a bit longer if it is stronger, but if the bearings are not designed to support it it will be flexed and worked and will fatigue eventually. Anyone who claims it will be bulletproof guessing. It will be some time before this is known. There is a much higher probability from first principles that the 5th bearing will be much more resilient. 

  

 I think what is happening here is that WW's in your face style has somebody's nose out of joint. That is the only explanation for the bizarre claims being made (i.e. WW's cranks break etc). Anyway, this dead horse has been well flogged and I hope it has not been too tedious. I will let it go now. 

  

 Scott

 

   From: dix39(at)charter.net

To: corvairengines-list(at)matronics.com

Subject: Re: Corvair - where to get one?

Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2011 13:56:15 -0800



     I don't think anyone is "married" to WW.  For my part, I was only trying to give credit where I thought credit was due, and point out in response to the post below that there were alternatives to MM.  How one chooses to build an engine is up to them, but IMHO they should proceed using the best information and parts (tested?) available.

  

 As I see it, the folks at MM are machinists with an interest in aviation, WW is an A&P with an interest in converting Corvair engines for aircraft use.  MM became a LLC in 2007, WW has been doing his thing for several decades.  WW has an excellent manual/book, and many years of Corvair College that are available online.  I don't know of anyone else that can provide this much information.  Also, I don't know of anyone who has the $ or time to test a Corvair crankshaft as well as GM.   

  

 It was pointed out that there have been crankshaft failures in Corvairs when used on aircraft and this is primarily because they were not designed to withstand the gyroscopic and other forces exerted on them in flight.  All one has to do is look at the differences in the crankshaft support of an engine designed for flight and one designed for automotive use and the reason for this is readily apparent.  Aircraft engines have a huge main bearing nearest the prop to handle these forces.  Adding the "fifth bearing" was a large step in the right direction to address this deficiency in the Corvair.  

  

 One last thought.  I always had the idea that homebuilding and engine conversions were done, at least in part, to reduce the cost of flying.  This seems to be sometimes forgotten, or perhaps not a factor.  While I believe the Corvair is an excellent automotive engine and a good aircraft engine, it is difficult to beat the reliability of an engine designed for aircraft use when money is not a factor.

  

 Steve Dixon

  

 ---

_________________
Scott Black
Montreal
Jodel F11 O-200

jaybannist(at)cs.com
Guest

Posted: Tue Jan 11, 2011 4:43 pm Post subject: Corvair - where to get one?

 	  Quote: 	
		  

	
  Scott,

 

 When applied to steel, the term "strong" is somewhat nebulous.  The strength of steel is expressed in terms of its ability to withstand stress at its most extreme fibers  --  "f" in pounds per square inch.  The kicker is that the higher the "f" is, the more brittle the steel is.  Conversely, the lower the "f", the more ductile it is.  A steel rod with a relatively low "f" will bend easily and bend a lot before breaking. A rod with a real high "f" is more likely to break than to bend.  Which is "stronger"?  There have been some spectacular structural failures where the bolts that were used were too "strong", thus too brittle and they failed.  So just because a steel part has a higher "f"  ("stronger") doesn't necessarily mean that it is more suited to the task intended for it.  GM had a pretty long and successful experience with specifying the most advantageous steel strength for their crankshafts.  The point is that making a crankshaft for a Corvair engine "stronger" is not necessarily a good thing. 

 

 Jay Bannister

  

     

  

       

  

      

   [quote][b]

sblack

Joined: 14 Aug 2010
Posts: 21

Posted: Fri Feb 04, 2011 9:18 am Post subject: Re: Corvair - where to get one?

from Flycorvair.com



"Ironically, the specific "new" parts the gentleman was referencing were all made in China. He was promoting the work of a person who imported five Chinese built copies of a Corvair crank, and in spite of no engineering proof, they were sold as "2.5 times stronger than original GM cranks." After the first customer ground ran the engine for 30 minutes, the crank failed at the snout. Close inspection revealed that the Chinese manufacturer had made the crank snout too small and tried to hide it by putting a sleeve on the output end of the crank. "

Ouch! Bullet proof eh?

_________________
Scott Black
Montreal
Jodel F11 O-200

MRus597999(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Fri Feb 04, 2011 10:39 am Post subject: Corvair - where to get one?

The comments of Mr. Black are false. He is an obvious shill for WW. The  cranks are working. WW maintains that MM has never built and flown a corvair  engine. He has two in planes, or are going into planes, and he is building 3  more. The crank never failed in Makish's  plane.  All of Makish' parts  he got from MM work fine. There were some corrections that were made. The reason  why the plane is not flying now has nothing to do with the parts Makish uses  from MM, i.e. new crank, pistons and rods. Makish is pleased with them. WW will  try and tell you otherwise and he is misrepresenting the facts about MM and his  products, PERIOD.. He has even admitted to me that a new crank is better than  one that has gone a 100,00 miles or more, ground ,magnaflux and nitrided. The  reason why Makish' engine is not running right now has to do with some problem  with the heads, which problems are not related to anything MM did, that is also  a big PERIOD.

  

 However, it is a moot point as  of this point in time there is only  one new corvair crank left, and contrary to Black's assertions, it is as strong  as represented.  The other 8 or so have been sold and are being installed  or are installed.  Unlike the rest of the WW community, which are a bunch  of sycophants as far as I am concerned, I go directly to the source, or the  source comes to me, I don't listen to hearsay.

  

 I want to say very clearly here, that the products and services that WW  produces are good ,if not some of the best, and I have no problem with them.  However, his criticisms of MM and Aeromax and others, including the criticism he  makes of Larry's Corvair cam, (which he has published about Larry's  Corvair in his book)are wrong.  He can't stand competition I  believe. I have no problem with supporting WW products but don't use that  support as a pretext to slander competitors.

  

 BY the way, since my recent contacts with WW have been generally  disagreeable I will no longer use any product of his, should I proceed with the  conversions of my prepped and ready to assemble 1964 Corvair 110 hp  engine.  If anyone wants to buy it let me know. I got  something I think will be better anyhow. I have got to finish my 601 xl upgrade  first.

  

 Frankly, with what I have discovered about WW and how he treats  those that don't agree with him I will not have anything to do with him and if  he tries to call me again to lecture me his request will go  unanswered.

  

 Mike Russell

  [quote][b]

sblack

Joined: 14 Aug 2010
Posts: 21

Posted: Fri Feb 04, 2011 2:34 pm Post subject: Re: Corvair - where to get one?

 	  MRus597999(at)aol.com wrote: 	
		  The comments of Mr. Black are false. He is an obvious shill for WW. 	




I can tell you that shilling for WW certainly doesn't pay very well. Never met the man. My opinions are based on his track record, reading his manual and verifying where possible and using engineering judgement based on my 21 yrs of being a degreed aeronautical engineer and a machinist, model maker and pilot/aircraft owner. It is also based on the fact that WWs "failures", or more accurately the weaknesses of the corvair platform are all publicized by him in order to help people fly safely! MM has not show any pictures of their broken crank on their site to explain why it happened. This makes it hard to fault William if he is being not only honest but open.  Finally, my opinion is based on what I know of several business men who have tried to have products produced off shore and have run into nightmares. The experience related on WW's website is all completely consistent with their experience. It is a great idea in theory to get a new crank made. Kudos to them for trying. But unless they have some guarantee that these things are well made which would include some sort of quality control, tests to destruction etc one would be taking a very big risk putting one on an airplane. Again, an opinion. 



Have I held a MM crank? No. Have I tested one? No. Is my opinion based on any first hand experience? No.  So I could be totally wrong. But it is hard not to take a person who is an A&P with 22 yrs of experience testing and having built or helped with 100s of engines very seriously. But that is the beauty of this hobby as the late great Bob Hoover (no, the other Bob Hoover) said, "you are your own mechanic". So whatever you put on your airplane I hope it is dependable and every flight is a safe one.  



William, where is my check? ???  Still waiting.



sb

_________________
Scott Black
Montreal
Jodel F11 O-200

MRus597999(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Fri Feb 04, 2011 5:12 pm Post subject: Corvair - where to get one?

It would appear that you are mouthing WW criticisms. Engineer or not, you  have no knowledge of MM's products and are relaying WW criticisms without ever  getting 1st hand knowledge. Again you only speak from hearsay and blind faith  and total belief in anything WW. He is not the be-all and end-all of Corvair  knowledge. Again, he repeats some information without any info, e.g. WW's   statement published in his book that I bought and read from cover to  cover  where WW  says not to use Larry's Corvair's cam. He  admitted to Larry's Corvair he had no knowledge of it, notwithstanding he  deliberately and ignorantly decided to tell all to stay away from using  Larry's Corvair's cam. Typical!  

  

 WW states at pages 47-48 about Larry's Corvair Cams as follows: "The best  cam is an OT-10 sold by Clark's Corvair. Clark's sells this exclusively, and you  cannot get it from other people (not even Larry's Corvairs- do not accepts his  "substitute"). " Well this is an untrue statement. When I told Larry's about it,  because I was ready to buy some parts, Larry's was totally flabbergasted because  they too have built corvair engines for aircraft following WW book. They called  and WW admitted he had no knowledge of their cam. . So don't  follow blindly WW advice on cams, or anyting else, on blind faith.  Check out his assertions also. With respect to Larry's then buy one of his  cams. Prove out everything WW says, most of which is correct, but don't let  that prevent you from looking at others and their improvements on the  corvair aircraft engine. To assume WW has it all is just not so.

  

 By the way there is no broken crank to show on MM website, because none of  his cranks have broken. It's false to assert or represent otherwise.   

  

 Mike Russell

  

  In a message dated 2/4/2011 2:37:25 P.M. Pacific Standard Time,  scott-black(at)sympatico.ca writes:

  	  Quote: 	
		  -->    CorvairEngines-List message posted by: "sblack"    <scott-black(at)sympatico.ca>

MRus597999(at)aol.com    wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   The comments of Mr. Black are false. He is an obvious shill for    WW. 


	




I can tell you that shilling for WW certainly doesn't pay very    well. Never met the man. My opinions are based on his track record, reading    his manual and verifying where possible and using engineering judgement based    on my 21 yrs of being a degreed aeronautical engineer and a machinist, model    maker and pilot/aircraft owner. It is also based on the fact that WWs    "failures", or more accurately the weaknesses of the corvair platform are all    publicized by him in order to help people fly safely! MM has not show any    pictures of their broken crank on their site to explain why it happened. This    makes it hard to fault William if he is being not only honest but open.     Finally, my opinion is based on what I know of several business men who have    tried to have products produced off shore and have run into nightmares. The    experience related on WW's website is all completely consistent with their    experience. It is a great idea in theory to get a new crank made. Kudos to    them for trying. Bu!

t unless they have some guarantee that these things    are well made which would include some sort of quality control, tests to    destruction etc one would be taking a very big risk putting one on an    airplane. Again, an opinion. 



Have I held a MM crank? No. Have I tested    one? No. Is my opinion based on any first hand experience? No.  So I    could be totally wrong. But it is hard not to take a person who is an A&P    with 22 yrs of experience testing and having built or helped with 100s of    engines very seriously. But that is the beauty of this hobby as the late great    Bob Hoover (no, the other Bob Hoover) said, "you are your own mechanic". So    whatever you put on your airplane I hope it is dependable and every flight is    a safe one.  



William, where is my check? ???  Still    waiting.



sb



--------

Scott Black

Montreal

Jodel F11    O-200





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