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Speedy11(at)aol.com
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 Posted: Tue Jan 18, 2011 7:38 pm Post subject: Engines-List Digest: 2 Msgs - 01/17/11 |
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Dean,
As Dave mentioned, it is good cautionary technique to do an oil sample analysis at each oil change.
Having said that, during ownership of nine airplanes, I have never had an oil analysis. I've changed the oil and filter and pressed on.
Was I just lucky? Maybe.
Ask other aircraft owners, OBAM or certificated, if they do an oil analysis at each change. I believe you will find very few who do. Are they just lucky? Maybe.
Regards,
Stan Sutterfield
PS - I have an ADC oil filter on my RV-8A so I pull the stainless filter and clean it each time. I have found only a few TINY bits of metal in the oil and only minor bits of other "gunk." I'm using Exxon Elite which is a semi-synthetic oil. Oh - the purists will go nuts over that!
In a message dated 1/18/2011 3:05:24 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, engines-list(at)matronics.com writes:
| Quote: | My RV-6A has been flying for a couple years now and since I have the
repairman's certificate I've been doing the annuals and maintenance. My
question is on cutting open the oil filter after an oil change. Since I've
never owned an airplane before much less maintained one this exercise has me
wondering:
After the first few oil changes on a new/overhauled engine, do you keep
cutting open the filters and inspecting the element?
Or is inspecting the element not as important as the first hours after break
in?
Those of you that do cut open every oil filter at every oil change, do you
ever see fine particles in the filter element?
If yes, how often do see these particles?
What color are the particles?
How large would the particles have to be to be of concern?
How many folks do oil analysis in addition to cutting open the filter?
If the oil analysis says no problem but there are a small amount of fine
particles in the filter do you continue to fly?
If you have fine particles in the filter would you take them to your local
mechanic and have him/her look them over? Or???
I'm curious, I've done lots of work on cars but never cut open the filters
before so I don't know if fine particles would be present at every change.
I don't want to be paranoid about this but if a problem can be caught
earlier by cutting open the filter EVERY TIME then I want to be sure to
continue doing that. Thanks.
Dean Psiropoulos
|
[quote][b]
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douglas.dodson(at)pobox.c
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| Posted: Tue Jan 18, 2011 10:05 pm Post subject: Engines-List Digest: 2 Msgs - 01/17/11 |
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That technique is based on anecdotal evidence at best. The term “cautionary” begs the question. You can do what everyone else does, same as the lemming. Good science is nice, good engineering is even better. Both require data (or evidence) to in order to follow accepted practice.
Price out for yourself an oil analysis. Familiarize yourself with the credentials and writings of Mike Busch. Price out an overhaul, then price out an accident that almost totals the aircraft (assuming you have insurance). Balance the costs versus the benefits. I have not even asked you to include an analysis of the cost for injury or death.
Oil analysis can’t prevent every bad thing, but knowledge is still power, and the price of this knowledge is less than that of 3 gallons of fuel. The science (or engineering) is well founded.
- Doug
From: owner-engines-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-engines-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Speedy11(at)aol.com
Sent: Tuesday, January 18, 2011 7:32 PM
To: engines-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: Re: Engines-List Digest: 2 Msgs - 01/17/11
Dean,
As Dave mentioned, it is good cautionary technique to do an oil sample analysis at each oil change.
Having said that, during ownership of nine airplanes, I have never had an oil analysis. I've changed the oil and filter and pressed on.
Was I just lucky? Maybe.
Ask other aircraft owners, OBAM or certificated, if they do an oil analysis at each change. I believe you will find very few who do. Are they just lucky? Maybe.
Regards,
Stan Sutterfield
PS - I have an ADC oil filter on my RV-8A so I pull the stainless filter and clean it each time. I have found only a few TINY bits of metal in the oil and only minor bits of other "gunk." I'm using Exxon Elite which is a semi-synthetic oil. Oh - the purists will go nuts over that!
In a message dated 1/18/2011 3:05:24 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, engines-list(at)matronics.com writes:
| Quote: |
My RV-6A has been flying for a couple years now and since I have the
repairman's certificate I've been doing the annuals and maintenance. My
question is on cutting open the oil filter after an oil change. Since I've
never owned an airplane before much less maintained one this exercise has me
wondering:
After the first few oil changes on a new/overhauled engine, do you keep
cutting open the filters and inspecting the element?
Or is inspecting the element not as important as the first hours after break
in?
Those of you that do cut open every oil filter at every oil change, do you
ever see fine particles in the filter element?
If yes, how often do see these particles?
What color are the particles?
How large would the particles have to be to be of concern?
How many folks do oil analysis in addition to cutting open the filter?
If the oil analysis says no problem but there are a small amount of fine
particles in the filter do you continue to fly?
If you have fine particles in the filter would you take them to your local
mechanic and have him/her look them over? Or???
I'm curious, I've done lots of work on cars but never cut open the filters
before so I don't know if fine particles would be present at every change.
I don't want to be paranoid about this but if a problem can be caught
earlier by cutting open the filter EVERY TIME then I want to be sure to
continue doing that. Thanks.
Dean Psiropoulos |
| Quote: | | http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Engines-List |
0123456789
[quote][b]
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teamgrumman(at)yahoo.com
Guest
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| Posted: Wed Jan 19, 2011 11:49 am Post subject: Engines-List Digest: 2 Msgs - 01/17/11 |
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I had a customer who, on his second engine (a factory reman), had decided to do an oil analysis on every oil change. His belief was that he'd have trend data for the entire 2000 hours (O360-A4K in a Grumman TIger). He even installed on of those ADC oil filters; the cleaner the better, right? He used Aeroshell 15w-50 (which is also a semi-synthetic oil)
Flash forward to the first annual I did on his plane in 1997. His plane was very clean, well maintained. He was a very involved airplane owner. He always participated in owner assisted annuals. We joked that, at his current rate of flying, he'd have 1999 hours on his plane in 1999.
Flash forward to 1999. Sure enough, he had 1999 hours on his plane . . . give or take a few. At 1999 hrs, he opted for a LyCon overhaul. When the owner brought me his plane, he told me, "This should be an easy overhaul. I don't want anything fancy like port and polish or anything else. Just the basic overhaul. I've set aside about $18,000 to cover the costs."
Engine comes off and goes to Lycon. I told Ken about the oil analysis and ADC oil filter and that the owner expects this to be a simple overhaul.
The next time I talked to Ken, he told me the engine would need to be aligned bored (the case had been chafing), the crank needed to be reground (it was out of tolerance, the rod bearings were bad and had chewed up the crank), it would need a new cam and lifters (this plane was flown over 300 hours a year), and it would need new cylinders (the cylinders had too many cracks in them to repair.)
I asked about the ADC oil filter. Ken told me he didn't like them. He felt there was too much pressure drop across the filter and it robbed the engine of oil. I asked about the 15w-50 oil: he likes single weight oil but said there isn't enough of a difference to make a difference. I asked about flying it 300 hours a year: he said the more the better.
Then I asked about oil analysis: The bottom line is, no one will ever make a decision based on one bad oil analysis. They'll always wait for another. And, with the exception of a catastrophic failure (which can be found by looking at the oil filter) there is no benefit of doing an oil analysis.
<<Price out an overhaul, then price out an accident that almost totals the aircraft (assuming you have insurance). Balance the costs versus the benefits. >>
In 32 years of flying, engines just don't quit. Let me qualify that. Engines that are properly built, maintained, and serviced do not just fail.
One guy at Fox Field in Lancaster had a Harmon Rocket. He put the engine together in his hangar. At WOT over the Tehachapi's, he broke his crankshaft. He glided to a decent landing spot. Turns out he didn't torque the cylinders on the right side. Put the engine back together. Engine failed again: no oil. The oil pressure line was not tight and blew out all of the oil.
At the same airport there is a guy with a Lancair 360. LyCon built his engine. 10:1 compression ratio. Fuel injected. Ported and polished. 240 hp on a dyno. He runs it at 2900 rpm everywhere he goes. Last I heard, he is still running that engine some 8 years later.
Even an engine with a bad cam will run seemingly forever. I had an engine rebuilt with over 2000 hours on it that had bent rods. Ken said it would have gone another 1000 hrs. The only real weak spot is the valve train. Sticking valves is common to both engine makes. My solution is top overhauls at 1000 hrs with new cylinders. Then fly the plane to 2400 hours before major overhaul. The bottom end is bullet proof.
My 2 cents worth.
Gary
AuCountry.com
From: Doug Dodson <douglas.dodson(at)pobox.com>
To: engines-list(at)matronics.com
Sent: Tue, January 18, 2011 9:47:09 PM
Subject: RE: Re: Engines-List Digest: 2 Msgs - 01/17/11
That technique is based on anecdotal evidence at best. The term “cautionary” begs the question. You can do what everyone else does, same as the lemming. Good science is nice, good engineering is even better. Both require data (or evidence) to in order to follow accepted practice.
Price out for yourself an oil analysis. Familiarize yourself with the credentials and writings of Mike Busch. Price out an overhaul, then price out an accident that almost totals the aircraft (assuming you have insurance). Balance the costs versus the benefits. I have not even asked you to include an analysis of the cost for injury or death.
Oil analysis can’t prevent every bad thing, but knowledge is still power, and the price of this knowledge is less than that of 3 gallons of fuel. The science (or engineering) is well founded.
- Doug
From: owner-engines-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-engines-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Speedy11(at)aol.com
Sent: Tuesday, January 18, 2011 7:32 PM
To: engines-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: Re: Engines-List Digest: 2 Msgs - 01/17/11
Dean,
As Dave mentioned, it is good cautionary technique to do an oil sample analysis at each oil change.
Having said that, during ownership of nine airplanes, I have never had an oil analysis. I've changed the oil and filter and pressed on.
Was I just lucky? Maybe.
Ask other aircraft owners, OBAM or certificated, if they do an oil analysis at each change. I believe you will find very few who do. Are they just lucky? Maybe.
Regards,
Stan Sutterfield
PS - I have an ADC oil filter on my RV-8A so I pull the stainless filter and clean it each time. I have found only a few TINY bits of metal in the oil and only minor bits of other "gunk." I'm using Exxon Elite which is a semi-synthetic oil. Oh - the purists will go nuts over that!
In a message dated 1/18/2011 3:05:24 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, engines-list(at)matronics.com writes:
| Quote: |
My RV-6A has been flying for a couple years now and since I have the
repairman's certificate I've been doing the annuals and maintenance. My
question is on cutting open the oil filter after an oil change. Since I've
never owned an airplane before much less maintained one this exercise has me
wondering:
After the first few oil changes on a new/overhauled engine, do you keep
cutting open the filters and inspecting the element?
Or is inspecting the element not as important as the first hours after break
in?
Those of you that do cut open every oil filter at every oil change, do you
ever see fine particles in the filter element?
If yes, how often do see these particles?
What color are the particles?
How large would the particles have to be to be of concern?
How many folks do oil analysis in addition to cutting open the filter?
If the oil analysis says no problem but there are a small amount of fine
particles in the filter do you continue to fly?
If you have fine particles in the filter would you take them to your local
mechanic and have him/her look them over? Or???
I'm curious, I've done lots of work on cars but never cut open the filters
before so I don't know if fine particles would be present at every change.
I don't want to be paranoid about this but if a problem can be caught
earlier by cutting open the filter EVERY TIME then I want to be sure to
continue doing that. Thanks.
Dean Psiropoulos |
012
3
[quote][b]
| | - The Matronics Engines-List Email Forum - | | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Engines-List |
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tedd(at)vansairforce.org
Guest
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| Posted: Wed Jan 19, 2011 5:26 pm Post subject: Engines-List Digest: 2 Msgs - 01/17/11 |
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On 19-Jan-11, at 11:46AM, Gary Vogt wrote:
| Quote: | I had a customer who, on his second engine (a factory reman), had decided to do an oil analysis on every oil change.
|
Gary:
I'm not sure what you're saying here. Is that getting the oil analyzed isn't worth it?
Tedd
[quote][b]
| | - The Matronics Engines-List Email Forum - | | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Engines-List |
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teamgrumman(at)yahoo.com
Guest
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| Posted: Thu Jan 20, 2011 10:56 am Post subject: Engines-List Digest: 2 Msgs - 01/17/11 |
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That's the bottom line. It's a waste of time and money.
From: Tedd McHenry <tedd(at)vansairforce.org>
To: engines-list(at)matronics.com
Sent: Wed, January 19, 2011 5:23:01 PM
Subject: Re: Re: Engines-List Digest: 2 Msgs - 01/17/11
On 19-Jan-11, at 11:46AM, Gary Vogt wrote:
| Quote: | I had a customer who, on his second engine (a factory reman), had decided to do an oil analysis on every oil change.
|
Gary:
I'm not sure what you're saying here. Is that getting the oil analyzed isn't worth it?
Tedd
[quote][b]
| | - The Matronics Engines-List Email Forum - | | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Engines-List |
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