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dean.psiropoulos(at)veriz
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 Posted: Mon Jan 17, 2011 8:27 pm Post subject: Oil Filters |
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Hello Listers:
My RV-6A has been flying for a couple years now and since I have the
repairman's certificate I've been doing the annuals and maintenance. My
question is on cutting open the oil filter after an oil change. Since I've
never owned an airplane before much less maintained one this exercise has me
wondering:
After the first few oil changes on a new/overhauled engine, do you keep
cutting open the filters and inspecting the element?
Or is inspecting the element not as important as the first hours after break
in?
Those of you that do cut open every oil filter at every oil change, do you
ever see fine particles in the filter element?
If yes, how often do see these particles?
What color are the particles?
How large would the particles have to be to be of concern?
How many folks do oil analysis in addition to cutting open the filter?
If the oil analysis says no problem but there are a small amount of fine
particles in the filter do you continue to fly?
If you have fine particles in the filter would you take them to your local
mechanic and have him/her look them over? Or???
I'm curious, I've done lots of work on cars but never cut open the filters
before so I don't know if fine particles would be present at every change.
I don't want to be paranoid about this but if a problem can be caught
earlier by cutting open the filter EVERY TIME then I want to be sure to
continue doing that. Thanks.
Dean Psiropoulos
Flying fun for 2+ years now
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dhschultz39(at)msn.com
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| Posted: Mon Jan 17, 2011 11:04 pm Post subject: Oil Filters |
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for a continental e-225 in my '52 c 35 bonanza, prevented a catastrophic engine failure by
sending off oil sample and cutting open the filter with each oil change.
the scavenge pump in the accessory case began to fail - saw grey smudge
and very small particles on the magnet. waited for analysis results to come back (week) before flying,
and sure enuff, a jump in iron (impellor) and aluminum (pump casing) and copper (shaft bushing/bearing) and ...
since it was the scavenge pump side of the oil pump, only the slightest decrease
over time in oil pressure (two pumps in accessory case), so not really observable by instrument.
so instead of losing an engine or numerous
parts therein (like the crank!), I only had to replace the oil pumps for about $2500;
all other parts salvageable / overhaul - able.
for the little time and money involved (every 33 hrs), it's not even a little bit worth not doing the
whole nine yards, let alone the piece of mind.
if sample taken correctly, oil analysis very sensitive to anything compared to visual inspect.
for example, you'll be able to see if your air filter is failing (step up in silicon from the sand
in the air).
r/s
--------------------------------------------------
From: "DEAN PSIROPOULOS" <dean.psiropoulos(at)verizon.net>
Sent: Monday, January 17, 2011 8:20 PM
To: <engines-list(at)matronics.com>
Subject: Oil Filters
[quote] --> Engines-List message posted by: "DEAN PSIROPOULOS" <dean.psiropoulos(at)verizon.net>
Hello Listers:
My RV-6A has been flying for a couple years now and since I have the
repairman's certificate I've been doing the annuals and maintenance. My
question is on cutting open the oil filter after an oil change. Since I've
never owned an airplane before much less maintained one this exercise has me
wondering:
After the first few oil changes on a new/overhauled engine, do you keep
cutting open the filters and inspecting the element?
Or is inspecting the element not as important as the first hours after break
in?
Those of you that do cut open every oil filter at every oil change, do you
ever see fine particles in the filter element?
If yes, how often do see these particles?
What color are the particles?
How large would the particles have to be to be of concern?
How many folks do oil analysis in addition to cutting open the filter?
If the oil analysis says no problem but there are a small amount of fine
particles in the filter do you continue to fly?
If you have fine particles in the filter would you take them to your local
mechanic and have him/her look them over? Or???
I'm curious, I've done lots of work on cars but never cut open the filters
before so I don't know if fine particles would be present at every change.
I don't want to be paranoid about this but if a problem can be caught
earlier by cutting open the filter EVERY TIME then I want to be sure to
continue doing that. Thanks.
Dean Psiropoulos
Flying fun for 2+ years now
===========
Engines-List Un/Subscription,
--> ===========
bsp; via the ===========
bsp; - generous support!
bsp; http://www.matronics.com/contribution
===========
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douglas.dodson(at)pobox.c
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| Posted: Tue Jan 18, 2011 7:39 am Post subject: Oil Filters |
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I also do oil analysis at every oil change. I stopped cutting the filters unless there is something up in the analysis. I save the old filter until I get the analysis back.
Doug Dodson
Glasair II-S FT
Flight Test Engineer, CFI-A/S&MEL/I/G
From: owner-engines-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-engines-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of dave schultz
Sent: Monday, January 17, 2011 11:02 PM
To: engines-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: Re: Oil Filters
for a continental e-225 in my '52 c 35 bonanza, prevented a catastrophic engine failure by
sending off oil sample [b]and[/b] cutting open the filter with each oil change.
the scavenge pump in the accessory case began to fail - saw grey smudge
and [b]very[/b] small particles on the magnet. waited for analysis results to come back (week) before flying,
and sure enuff, a jump in iron (impellor) and aluminum (pump casing) and copper (shaft bushing/bearing) and ...
since it was the scavenge pump side of the oil pump, only the slightest decrease
over time in oil pressure (two pumps in accessory case), so not really observable by instrument.
so instead of losing an engine or numerous
parts therein (like the crank!), I only had to replace the oil pumps for about $2500;
all other parts salvageable / overhaul - able.
for the little time and money involved (every 33 hrs), it's not even a little bit worth not doing the
whole nine yards, let alone the piece of mind.
if sample taken correctly, oil analysis very sensitive to anything compared to visual inspect.
for example, you'll be able to see if your air filter is failing (step up in silicon from the sand
in the air).
r/s
--------------------------------------------------
From: "DEAN PSIROPOULOS" <dean.psiropoulos(at)verizon.net>
Sent: Monday, January 17, 2011 8:20 PM
To: <engines-list(at)matronics.com>
Subject: Oil Filters
> --> Engines-List message posted by: "DEAN PSIROPOULOS" <dean.psiropoulos(at)verizon.net>
>
> Hello Listers:
>
> My RV-6A has been flying for a couple years now and since I have the
> repairman's certificate I've been doing the annuals and maintenance. My
> question is on cutting open the oil filter after an oil change. Since I've
> never owned an airplane before much less maintained one this exercise has me
> wondering:
>
> After the first few oil changes on a new/overhauled engine, do you keep
> cutting open the filters and inspecting the element?
>
> Or is inspecting the element not as important as the first hours after break
> in?
>
> Those of you that do cut open every oil filter at every oil change, do you
> ever see fine particles in the filter element?
>
> If yes, how often do see these particles?
>
> What color are the particles?
>
> How large would the particles have to be to be of concern?
>
> How many folks do oil analysis in addition to cutting open the filter?
>
> If the oil analysis says no problem but there are a small amount of fine
> particles in the filter do you continue to fly?
>
> If you have fine particles in the filter would you take them to your local
> mechanic and have him/her look them over? Or???
>
> I'm curious, I've done lots of work on cars but never cut open the filters
> before so I don't know if fine particles would be present at every change.
> I don't want to be paranoid about this but if a problem can be caught
> earlier by cutting open the filter EVERY TIME then I want to be sure to
> continue doing that. Thanks.
>
> Dean Psiropoulos
> Flying fun for 2+ years now
>
>
> ===========
> Engines-List Un/Subscription,
> --> ===========
> bsp; via the ===========
> bsp; - generous support!
> bsp; http://www.matronics.com/contribution
> ===========
>
>
>
>
| Quote: | | http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Engines-List |
0123456789
[quote][b]
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Speedy11(at)aol.com
Guest
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| Posted: Wed Jan 19, 2011 5:44 pm Post subject: Oil Filters |
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Doug,
Nobody is arguing with you. An oil analysis is a great idea. We've all used the same reasoning you did.
I was offering no technique at all - so there was no anecdotal evidence on which to base said technique. And I'm not sure what question the word cautionary begs.
Getting an oil analysis is a great technique. Keep it up.
Stan Sutterfield
Do not archive
In a message dated 1/19/2011 3:06:31 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, engines-list(at)matronics.com writes:
| Quote: | That technique is based on anecdotal evidence at best. The term
"cautionary" begs the question. You can do what everyone else does, same as
the lemming. Good science is nice, good engineering is even better. Both
require data (or evidence) to in order to follow accepted practice.
Price out for yourself an oil analysis. Familiarize yourself with the
credentials and writings of Mike Busch. Price out an overhaul, then price
out an accident that almost totals the aircraft (assuming you have
insurance). Balance the costs versus the benefits. I have not even asked
you to include an analysis of the cost for injury or death.
Oil analysis can't prevent every bad thing, but knowledge is still power,
and the price of this knowledge is less than that of 3 gallons of fuel. The
science (or engineering) is well founded.
- Doug
|
[quote][b]
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flyadive(at)gmail.com
Guest
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| Posted: Wed Jan 19, 2011 9:11 pm Post subject: Oil Filters |
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AN OIL ANALYSIS IS A WASTE OF MONEY!
OK, do I have your attention?
Here is why...
Lets say you are running one of the two major manufacture engines and you have a oil consumption of 1 quart in 10 hours.
This is slightly above average for Lycoming & Continental, usually 1 Qt in 8 to 9 hours is more common.
Next is the quantity of oil your engine holds.
Again for the big two 8 Qts is what is stamped on your dip stick.
BUT! If you put in 8 Qts you are blowing out one Qt in the first hour... So, 7 Qts is more in line with what you should be using.
So lets use 7 Qts for this exercise.
Now, what kind of oil filter are you using? Lets say you have a Spin On or ADC filter.
That give you 50 Hours of flight time before you should change your oil.
If you have the standard screen you will be doing an oil change in 25 hours.
But, we will work with 50 hours.
You can do the same math with 25 hours but that will really scare you.
OK, here we go....
50 hours divided by 10 hours per qt = 5 Qts - That means 5 Qts will be added between oil changes.
If yo want to use 8 hrs per Qt then...
50 / 8 = 6.26 Qts
What does that mean?
Well, When you take your oil sample to ship out for oil analysis you have already replace ... Wait for it ...
Case #1 --- 5/7ths of your oil capacity. That is 71.4% of the oil capacity in your engine.
Case #2 --- 6.26/7ths of your oil capacity. That is 89.4% of the oil capacity in your engine.
SOOoooo What are you really checking? Only the remaining oil after 5/7ths or 6.26/7ths of the oil has been swapped out.
Now some may say that is OK as long as you always swap out the same amount.
For me that is not good data.
Oh, how much does it cost for oil analysis, I think it is $12 to $15 plus shipping.
Let's say $15... That is about 1/3 the cost of a case of oil.
Or, 47.6% of the cost of a single oil change. (7 Qts x $4.50/Qt = $31.50)
NOW! You want to do something good for your engine and spend the same amount of money?
Take that $15 and do an oil change at 33 Hours ... That is 1/3 sooner.
What about the Oil Filter? Change it ONLY at 100 Hour intervals.
You will now have cleaner oil going through your engine AND your filter.
For those of you that are already changing your filter at 100 Hrs .. Stretch it to 130 Hrs.
One last point. After reading a few oil analysis reports. What one thing do they all have in common?
There is a statement at the bottom that reads something like this: More Data is Required for Trend Analysis.
When it comes to this, I have stories for you!
Bottom line: Oil changed regularly does more for an engine and YOUR piece of mind than any after the fact piece of paper.
Barry
On Wed, Jan 19, 2011 at 8:40 PM, <Speedy11(at)aol.com (Speedy11(at)aol.com)> wrote:
[quote] Doug,
Nobody is arguing with you. An oil analysis is a great idea. We've all used the same reasoning you did.
I was offering no technique at all - so there was no anecdotal evidence on which to base said technique. And I'm not sure what question the word cautionary begs.
Getting an oil analysis is a great technique. Keep it up.
Stan Sutterfield
Do not archive
In a message dated 1/19/2011 3:06:31 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, engines-list(at)matronics.com (engines-list(at)matronics.com) writes:
| Quote: | That technique is based on anecdotal evidence at best. The term
"cautionary" begs the question. You can do what everyone else does, same as
the lemming. Good science is nice, good engineering is even better. Both
require data (or evidence) to in order to follow accepted practice.
Price out for yourself an oil analysis. Familiarize yourself with the
credentials and writings of Mike Busch. Price out an overhaul, then price
out an accident that almost totals the aircraft (assuming you have
insurance). Balance the costs versus the benefits. I have not even asked
you to include an analysis of the cost for injury or death.
Oil analysis can't prevent every bad thing, but knowledge is still power,
and the price of this knowledge is less than that of 3 gallons of fuel. The
science (or engineering) is well founded.
- Doug
|
| Quote: |
target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Engines-List
tp://forums.matronics.com
_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
|
[b]
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Float Flyr
Joined: 19 Jul 2006
Posts: 2704
Location: Campbellton, Newfoundland
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| Posted: Thu Jan 20, 2011 6:38 am Post subject: Oil Filters |
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I agree with you Barry except about running the filter for 100 hr. If there is anything in the filter running it another fifty or in this case 67 hr won’t do anything good for the engine. Change it at the 33 hr with the oil. In fact if you can’t get fresh oil I would recommend changing the filter anyway.
Oil analysis is something I would recommend for fleet operators... give the bean counters something to do. As you said without a base line to work form you won’t be able to notice trends in the precipitate. Anyone who is paying for oil analysis should keep a chart of the results and keep both the chart and the reports in the engine log. That way as they update the chart after each report they will have to see if trends continue or if one or more constituents are increasing.
Noel
From: owner-engines-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-engines-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of FLYaDIVE
Sent: January 20, 2011 1:39 AM
To: engines-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: Re: Re: Oil Filters
AN OIL ANALYSIS IS A WASTE OF MONEY!
OK, do I have your attention?
Here is why...
Lets say you are running one of the two major manufacture engines and you have a oil consumption of 1 quart in 10 hours.
This is slightly above average for Lycoming & Continental, usually 1 Qt in 8 to 9 hours is more common.
Next is the quantity of oil your engine holds.
Again for the big two 8 Qts is what is stamped on your dip stick.
BUT! If you put in 8 Qts you are blowing out one Qt in the first hour... So, 7 Qts is more in line with what you should be using.
So lets use 7 Qts for this exercise.
Now, what kind of oil filter are you using? Lets say you have a Spin On or ADC filter.
That give you 50 Hours of flight time before you should change your oil.
If you have the standard screen you will be doing an oil change in 25 hours.
But, we will work with 50 hours.
You can do the same math with 25 hours but that will really scare you.
OK, here we go....
50 hours divided by 10 hours per qt = 5 Qts - That means 5 Qts will be added between oil changes.
If yo want to use 8 hrs per Qt then...
50 / 8 = 6.26 Qts
What does that mean?
Well, When you take your oil sample to ship out for oil analysis you have already replace ... Wait for it ..
Case #1 --- 5/7ths of your oil capacity. That is 71.4% of the oil capacity in your engine.
Case #2 --- 6.26/7ths of your oil capacity. That is 89.4% of the oil capacity in your engine.
SOOoooo What are you really checking? Only the remaining oil after 5/7ths or 6.26/7ths of the oil has been swapped out.
Now some may say that is OK as long as you always swap out the same amount.
For me that is not good data.
Oh, how much does it cost for oil analysis, I think it is $12 to $15 plus shipping.
Let's say $15... That is about 1/3 the cost of a case of oil.
Or, 47.6% of the cost of a single oil change. (7 Qts x $4.50/Qt = $31.50)
NOW! You want to do something good for your engine and spend the same amount of money?
Take that $15 and do an oil change at 33 Hours ... That is 1/3 sooner.
What about the Oil Filter? Change it ONLY at 100 Hour intervals.
You will now have cleaner oil going through your engine AND your filter.
For those of you that are already changing your filter at 100 Hrs .. Stretch it to 130 Hrs.
One last point. After reading a few oil analysis reports. What one thing do they all have in common?
There is a statement at the bottom that reads something like this: More Data is Required for Trend Analysis.
When it comes to this, I have stories for you!
Bottom line: Oil changed regularly does more for an engine and YOUR piece of mind than any after the fact piece of paper.
Barry
On Wed, Jan 19, 2011 at 8:40 PM, <Speedy11(at)aol.com (Speedy11(at)aol.com)> wrote:
Doug,
Nobody is arguing with you. An oil analysis is a great idea. We've all used the same reasoning you did.
I was offering no technique at all - so there was no anecdotal evidence on which to base said technique. And I'm not sure what question the word cautionary begs.
Getting an oil analysis is a great technique. Keep it up.
Stan Sutterfield
Do not archive
In a message dated 1/19/2011 3:06:31 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, engines-list(at)matronics.com (engines-list(at)matronics.com) writes:
| Quote: |
That technique is based on anecdotal evidence at best. The term
"cautionary" begs the question. You can do what everyone else does, same as
the lemming. Good science is nice, good engineering is even better. Both
require data (or evidence) to in order to follow accepted practice.
Price out for yourself an oil analysis. Familiarize yourself with the
credentials and writings of Mike Busch. Price out an overhaul, then price
out an accident that almost totals the aircraft (assuming you have
insurance). Balance the costs versus the benefits. I have not even asked
you to include an analysis of the cost for injury or death.
Oil analysis can't prevent every bad thing, but knowledge is still power,
and the price of this knowledge is less than that of 3 gallons of fuel. The
science (or engineering) is well founded.
- Doug target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Engines-Listtp://forums.matronics.com_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution |
0123456789 | Quote: | | target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Engines-List |
0 | Quote: | | target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Engines-List |
1 | Quote: | | target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Engines-List |
2 | Quote: | | target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Engines-List |
3 | Quote: | | target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Engines-List |
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[quote][b]
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Noel Loveys
Kitfox III-A
Aerocet 1100 Floats |
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tedd(at)vansairforce.org
Guest
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| Posted: Thu Jan 20, 2011 6:58 am Post subject: Oil Filters |
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Barry:
By your logic, a person should also self-insure for hull damage, since
they are likely to spend more in the long run by buying insurance.
I'm not saying that's wrong, only pointing out that there are factors
not taken into consideration in your analysis, such as that extra oil
changes give you peace of mind for completely different reasons than
oil analyses do. They're apples and oranges.
Tedd
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douglas.dodson(at)pobox.c
Guest
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| Posted: Thu Jan 20, 2011 7:01 am Post subject: Oil Filters |
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|
I thought it went without saying, but of course oil analysis is about trend monitoring. A single report has little value. The utility comes by having a series of reports at regular intervals. The reports are normalized to account for the makeup oil added between samples. Have a sample analyzed at each oil change. The trend analysis will show an issue before the oil filter does.
- Doug
From: owner-engines-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-engines-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Noel Loveys
Sent: Thursday, January 20, 2011 6:26 AM
To: engines-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: RE: Re: Oil Filters
I agree with you Barry except about running the filter for 100 hr. If there is anything in the filter running it another fifty or in this case 67 hr won’t do anything good for the engine. Change it at the 33 hr with the oil. In fact if you can’t get fresh oil I would recommend changing the filter anyway.
Oil analysis is something I would recommend for fleet operators... give the bean counters something to do. As you said without a base line to work form you won’t be able to notice trends in the precipitate. Anyone who is paying for oil analysis should keep a chart of the results and keep both the chart and the reports in the engine log. That way as they update the chart after each report they will have to see if trends continue or if one or more constituents are increasing.
Noel
From: owner-engines-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-engines-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of FLYaDIVE
Sent: January 20, 2011 1:39 AM
To: engines-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: Re: Re: Oil Filters
AN OIL ANALYSIS IS A WASTE OF MONEY!
OK, do I have your attention?
Here is why...
Lets say you are running one of the two major manufacture engines and you have a oil consumption of 1 quart in 10 hours.
This is slightly above average for Lycoming & Continental, usually 1 Qt in 8 to 9 hours is more common.
Next is the quantity of oil your engine holds.
Again for the big two 8 Qts is what is stamped on your dip stick.
BUT! If you put in 8 Qts you are blowing out one Qt in the first hour... So, 7 Qts is more in line with what you should be using.
So lets use 7 Qts for this exercise.
Now, what kind of oil filter are you using? Lets say you have a Spin On or ADC filter.
That give you 50 Hours of flight time before you should change your oil.
If you have the standard screen you will be doing an oil change in 25 hours.
But, we will work with 50 hours.
You can do the same math with 25 hours but that will really scare you.
OK, here we go....
50 hours divided by 10 hours per qt = 5 Qts - That means 5 Qts will be added between oil changes.
If yo want to use 8 hrs per Qt then...
50 / 8 = 6.26 Qts
What does that mean?
Well, When you take your oil sample to ship out for oil analysis you have already replace ... Wait for it ..
Case #1 --- 5/7ths of your oil capacity. That is 71.4% of the oil capacity in your engine.
Case #2 --- 6.26/7ths of your oil capacity. That is 89.4% of the oil capacity in your engine.
SOOoooo What are you really checking? Only the remaining oil after 5/7ths or 6.26/7ths of the oil has been swapped out.
Now some may say that is OK as long as you always swap out the same amount.
For me that is not good data.
Oh, how much does it cost for oil analysis, I think it is $12 to $15 plus shipping.
Let's say $15... That is about 1/3 the cost of a case of oil.
Or, 47.6% of the cost of a single oil change. (7 Qts x $4.50/Qt = $31.50)
NOW! You want to do something good for your engine and spend the same amount of money?
Take that $15 and do an oil change at 33 Hours ... That is 1/3 sooner.
What about the Oil Filter? Change it ONLY at 100 Hour intervals.
You will now have cleaner oil going through your engine AND your filter.
For those of you that are already changing your filter at 100 Hrs ... Stretch it to 130 Hrs.
One last point. After reading a few oil analysis reports. What one thing do they all have in common?
There is a statement at the bottom that reads something like this: More Data is Required for Trend Analysis.
When it comes to this, I have stories for you!
Bottom line: Oil changed regularly does more for an engine and YOUR piece of mind than any after the fact piece of paper.
Barry
On Wed, Jan 19, 2011 at 8:40 PM, <Speedy11(at)aol.com (Speedy11(at)aol.com)> wrote:
Doug,
Nobody is arguing with you. An oil analysis is a great idea. We've all used the same reasoning you did.
I was offering no technique at all - so there was no anecdotal evidence on which to base said technique. And I'm not sure what question the word cautionary begs.
Getting an oil analysis is a great technique. Keep it up.
Stan Sutterfield
Do not archive
In a message dated 1/19/2011 3:06:31 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, engines-list(at)matronics.com (engines-list(at)matronics.com) writes:
| Quote: |
That technique is based on anecdotal evidence at best. The term
"cautionary" begs the question. You can do what everyone else does, same as
the lemming. Good science is nice, good engineering is even better. Both
require data (or evidence) to in order to follow accepted practice.
Price out for yourself an oil analysis. Familiarize yourself with the
credentials and writings of Mike Busch. Price out an overhaul, then price
out an accident that almost totals the aircraft (assuming you have
insurance). Balance the costs versus the benefits. I have not even asked
you to include an analysis of the cost for injury or death.
Oil analysis can't prevent every bad thing, but knowledge is still power,
and the price of this knowledge is less than that of 3 gallons of fuel. The
science (or engineering) is well founded.
- Doug target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Engines-Listtp://forums.matronics.com_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution |
| Quote: | | http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Engines-List |
012345
6 [quote][b]
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rhdudley1(at)bellsouth.ne
Guest
|
| Posted: Thu Jan 20, 2011 7:34 am Post subject: Oil Filters |
|
|
I've been following the thread with interest and thought that I'd add my "anecdotal" tidbit.
Some years ago with my jointly owned Cherokee 235 we routinely had oil analysis done at each oil change. Soon after an oil change, my partner was away with the plane when I received a phone call from the analysis company that the results were grossly abnormal. Their conclusion from the predominant changes in a couple of elements was that there was a broken ring. I managed to contact my partner with those results. He had the cylinders bore scoped and found the scored cylinder with the broken ring. The consensus was that it was safe to return home with the broken ring. Upon return to home base, the cylinder and piston were replaced. Without the analysis and until that cylinder showed major loss of compression, we would not have known of the broken ring. The implications of continuing to run the engine with broken ring seem undesirable.
Rich Dudley
On 1/20/2011 9:57 AM, Doug Dodson wrote:
>
> I thought it went without saying, but of course oil analysis is about
> trend monitoring. A single report has little value. The utility
> comes by having a series of reports at regular intervals. The
> reports are normalized to account for the makeup oil added between
> samples. Have a sample analyzed at each oil change. The trend
> analysis will show an issue before the oil filter does.
>
>
>
>
>
> - Doug
>
>
>
>
>
> -------------------------
>
> *From:*owner-engines-list-server(at)matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-engines-list-server(at)matronics.com (owner-engines-list-server(at)matronics.com)] *On Behalf Of *Noel
> Loveys *Sent:* Thursday, January 20, 2011 6:26 AM *To:*
> engines-list(at)matronics.com (engines-list(at)matronics.com) *Subject:* RE: Re: Oil
> Filters
>
>
>
> I agree with you Barry except about running the filter for 100 hr.
> If there is anything in the filter running it another fifty or in
> this case 67 hr won’t do anything good for the engine. Change it at
> the 33 hr with the oil. In fact if you can’t get fresh oil I would
> recommend changing the filter anyway.
>
>
>
> Oil analysis is something I would recommend for fleet operators...
> give the bean counters something to do. As you said without a base
> line to work form you won’t be able to notice trends in the
> precipitate. Anyone who is paying for oil analysis should keep a
> chart of the results and keep both the chart and the reports in the
> engine log. That way as they update the chart after each report they
> will have to see if trends continue or if one or more constituents
> are increasing.
>
>
>
> Noel
>
>
>
> *From:*owner-engines-list-server(at)matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-engines-list-server(at)matronics.com (owner-engines-list-server(at)matronics.com)] *On Behalf Of
> *FLYaDIVE *Sent:* January 20, 2011 1:39 AM *To:*
> engines-list(at)matronics.com (engines-list(at)matronics.com) *Subject:* Re: Re: Oil
> Filters
>
>
>
> AN OIL ANALYSIS IS A WASTE OF MONEY!
>
>
>
> OK, do I have your attention?
>
>
>
> Here is why...
>
>
>
> Lets say you are running one of the two major manufacture engines and
> you have a oil consumption of 1 quart in 10 hours.
>
> This is slightly above average for Lycoming & Continental, usually 1
> Qt in 8 to 9 hours is more common.
>
>
>
> Next is the quantity of oil your engine holds.
>
> Again for the big two 8 Qts is what is stamped on your dip stick.
>
> BUT! If you put in 8 Qts you are blowing out one Qt in the first
> hour... So, 7 Qts is more in line with what you should be using.
>
> So lets use 7 Qts for this exercise.
>
> Now, what kind of oil filter are you using? Lets say you have a Spin
> On or ADC filter.
>
> That give you 50 Hours of flight time before you should change your
> oil.
>
> If you have the standard screen you will be doing an oil change in 25
> hours.
>
> But, we will work with 50 hours.
>
> You can do the same math with 25 hours but that will really scare
> you.
>
>
>
> OK, here we go....
>
> 50 hours divided by 10 hours per qt = 5 Qts - That means 5 Qts will
> be added between oil changes.
>
> If yo want to use 8 hrs per Qt then...
>
> 50 / 8 = 6.26 Qts
>
> What does that mean?
>
> Well, When you take your oil sample to ship out for oil analysis you
> have already replace ... Wait for it ...
>
> Case #1 --- 5/7ths of your oil capacity. That is 71.4% of the oil
> capacity in your engine.
>
> Case #2 --- 6.26/7ths of your oil capacity. That is 89.4% of the oil
> capacity in your engine.
>
>
>
> SOOoooo What are you really checking? Only the remaining oil after
> 5/7ths or 6.26/7ths of the oil has been swapped out.
>
> Now some may say that is OK as long as you always swap out the same
> amount.
>
> For me that is not good data.
>
>
>
> Oh, how much does it cost for oil analysis, I think it is $12 to $15
> plus shipping.
>
> Let's say $15... That is about 1/3 the cost of a case of oil.
>
> Or, 47.6% of the cost of a single oil change. (7 Qts x $4.50/Qt =
> $31.50)
>
>
>
> NOW! You want to do something good for your engine and spend the
> same amount of money?
>
> Take that $15 and do an oil change at 33 Hours ... That is 1/3
> sooner.
>
> What about the Oil Filter? Change it ONLY at 100 Hour intervals.
>
> You will now have cleaner oil going through your engine AND your
> filter.
>
> For those of you that are already changing your filter at 100 Hrs ...
> Stretch it to 130 Hrs.
>
>
>
> One last point. After reading a few oil analysis reports. What one
> thing do they all have in common?
>
> There is a statement at the bottom that reads something like this:
> More Data is Required for Trend Analysis.
>
> When it comes to this, I have stories for you!
>
>
>
> Bottom line: Oil changed regularly does more for an engine and YOUR
> piece of mind than any after the fact piece of paper.
>
>
>
> Barry
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On Wed, Jan 19, 2011 at 8:40 PM, <Speedy11(at)aol.com (Speedy11(at)aol.com)
> <mailto:Speedy11(at)aol.com> (Speedy11(at)aol.com)> wrote:
>
> Doug,
>
> Nobody is arguing with you. An oil analysis is a great idea. We've
> all used the same reasoning you did.
>
> I was offering no technique at all - so there was no anecdotal
> evidence on which to base said technique. And I'm not sure what
> question the word cautionary begs.
>
> Getting an oil analysis is a great technique. Keep it up.
>
> Stan Sutterfield
>
> Do not archive
>
>
>
>
>
> In a message dated 1/19/2011 3:06:31 A.M. Eastern Standard Time,
> engines-list(at)matronics.com (engines-list(at)matronics.com) <mailto:engines-list(at)matronics.com> (engines-list(at)matronics.com)
> writes:
>
> That technique is based on anecdotal evidence at best. The term
> "cautionary" begs the question. You can do what everyone else does,
> same as the lemming. Good science is nice, good engineering is even
> better. Both require data (or evidence) to in order to follow
> accepted practice.
>
>
> Price out for yourself an oil analysis. Familiarize yourself with
> the credentials and writings of Mike Busch. Price out an overhaul,
> then price out an accident that almost totals the aircraft (assuming
> you have insurance). Balance the costs versus the benefits. I have
> not even asked you to include an analysis of the cost for injury or
> death.
>
>
> Oil analysis can't prevent every bad thing, but knowledge is still
> power, and the price of this knowledge is less than that of 3 gallons
> of fuel. The science (or engineering) is well founded.
>
>
> - Doug
>
> * * * *
> *target="_blank">[url=http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Engines-List*]http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Engines-List*[/url]
> *tp://forums.matronics.com*
> *_blank">[url=http://www.matronics.com/contribution*]http://www.matronics.com/contribution*[/url] * *
>
>
>
> * * * * * * *[url=http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Engines-List*]http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Engines-List*[/url] * *
> *[url=http://forums.matronics.com*]http://forums.matronics.com*[/url] * *
> *[url=http://www.matronics.com/contribution*]http://www.matronics.com/contribution*[/url] * * * * *
>
> href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Engines-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Engines-List
>
>
href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
> href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c
>
>
*
> *
>
> Features
Browse, Chat,
> available via
> generous
> >
>
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Speedy11(at)aol.com
Guest
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| Posted: Thu Jan 20, 2011 7:46 am Post subject: Oil Filters |
|
|
Barry,
Allow me to get your attention.
Your opinion is one among many. There's no need to yell your opinion at the rest of us.
There is nothing wrong with doing an oil analysis. It is not terribly expensive and gives peace of mind to those who like tracking data.
I am not one who does oil sampling. I agree that regularly changing the oil is the best means of maintaining an aircraft engine.
Stan Sutterfield
In a message dated 1/20/2011 3:05:24 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, engines-list(at)matronics.com writes:
| Quote: | AN OIL ANALYSIS IS A WASTE OF MONEY!
OK, do I have your attention?
|
[quote][b]
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teamgrumman(at)yahoo.com
Guest
|
| Posted: Thu Jan 20, 2011 11:09 am Post subject: Oil Filters |
|
|
Quote " Flash forward to 1999. Sure enough, he had 1999 hours on his plane . . . give or take a few. At 1999 hrs, he opted for a LyCon overhaul. When the owner brought me his plane, he told me, "This should be an easy overhaul. I don't want anything fancy like port and polish or anything else. Just the basic overhaul. I've set aside about $18,000 to cover the costs."
Engine comes off and goes to Lycon. I told Ken about the oil analysis and ADC oil filter and that the owner expects this to be a simple overhaul.
The next time I talked to Ken, he told me the engine would need to be aligned bored (the case had been chafing), the crank needed to be reground (it was out of tolerance, the rod bearings were bad and had chewed up the crank), it would need a new cam and lifters (this plane was flown over 300 hours a year), and it would need new cylinders (the cylinders had too many cracks in them to repair.) "
--------------
Bottom line. The oil analysis for the entire time he owned the plane did not tell him his engine was trashed.
Oil analysis is a waste of time and money.
As for fleet operators, they too could save a lot of money just by inspecting the oil filter.
From: Doug Dodson <douglas.dodson(at)pobox.com>
To: engines-list(at)matronics.com
Sent: Thu, January 20, 2011 6:57:07 AM
Subject: RE: Re: Oil Filters
I thought it went without saying, but of course oil analysis is about trend monitoring. A single report has little value. The utility comes by having a series of reports at regular intervals. The reports are normalized to account for the makeup oil added between samples. Have a sample analyzed at each oil change. The trend analysis will show an issue before the oil filter does.
- Doug
From: owner-engines-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-engines-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Noel Loveys
Sent: Thursday, January 20, 2011 6:26 AM
To: engines-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: RE: Engines-List: Re: Oil Filters
I agree with you Barry except about running the filter for 100 hr. If there is anything in the filter running it another fifty or in this case 67 hr won’t do anything good for the engine. Change it at the 33 hr with the oil. In fact if you can’t get fresh oil I would recommend changing the filter anyway.
Oil analysis is something I would recommend for fleet operators... give the bean counters something to do. As you said without a base line to work form you won’t be able to notice trends in the precipitate. Anyone who is paying for oil analysis should keep a chart of the results and keep both the chart and the reports in the engine log. That way as they update the chart after each report they will have to see if trends continue or if one or more constituents are increasing.
Noel
From: owner-engines-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-engines-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of FLYaDIVE
Sent: January 20, 2011 1:39 AM
To: engines-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: Re: Re: Oil Filters
AN OIL ANALYSIS IS A WASTE OF MONEY!
OK, do I have your attention?
Here is why...
Lets say you are running one of the two major manufacture engines and you have a oil consumption of 1 quart in 10 hours.
This is slightly above average for Lycoming & Continental, usually 1 Qt in 8 to 9 hours is more common.
Next is the quantity of oil your engine holds.
Again for the big two 8 Qts is what is stamped on your dip stick.
BUT! If you put in 8 Qts you are blowing out one Qt in the first hour... So, 7 Qts is more in line with what you should be using.
So lets use 7 Qts for this exercise.
Now, what kind of oil filter are you using? Lets say you have a Spin On or ADC filter.
That give you 50 Hours of flight time before you should change your oil.
If you have the standard screen you will be doing an oil change in 25 hours.
But, we will work with 50 hours.
You can do the same math with 25 hours but that will really scare you.
OK, here we go....
50 hours divided by 10 hours per qt = 5 Qts - That means 5 Qts will be added between oil changes.
If yo want to use 8 hrs per Qt then...
50 / 8 = 6.26 Qts
What does that mean?
Well, When you take your oil sample to ship out for oil analysis you have already replace ... Wait for it ...
Case #1 --- 5/7ths of your oil capacity. That is 71.4% of the oil capacity in your engine.
Case #2 --- 6.26/7ths of your oil capacity. That is 89.4% of the oil capacity in your engine.
SOOoooo What are you really checking? Only the remaining oil after 5/7ths or 6.26/7ths of the oil has been swapped out.
Now some may say that is OK as long as you always swap out the same amount.
For me that is not good data.
Oh, how much does it cost for oil analysis, I think it is $12 to $15 plus shipping.
Let's say $15... That is about 1/3 the cost of a case of oil.
Or, 47.6% of the cost of a single oil change. (7 Qts x $4.50/Qt = $31.50)
NOW! You want to do something good for your engine and spend the same amount of money?
Take that $15 and do an oil change at 33 Hours ... That is 1/3 sooner.
What about the Oil Filter? Change it ONLY at 100 Hour intervals.
You will now have cleaner oil going through your engine AND your filter.
For those of you that are already changing your filter at 100 Hrs ... Stretch it to 130 Hrs.
One last point. After reading a few oil analysis reports. What one thing do they all have in common?
There is a statement at the bottom that reads something like this: More Data is Required for Trend Analysis.
When it comes to this, I have stories for you!
Bottom line: Oil changed regularly does more for an engine and YOUR piece of mind than any after the fact piece of paper.
Barry
On Wed, Jan 19, 2011 at 8:40 PM, <Speedy11(at)aol.com (Speedy11(at)aol.com)> wrote:
Doug,
Nobody is arguing with you. An oil analysis is a great idea. We've all used the same reasoning you did.
I was offering no technique at all - so there was no anecdotal evidence on which to base said technique. And I'm not sure what question the word cautionary begs.
Getting an oil analysis is a great technique. Keep it up.
Stan Sutterfield
Do not archive
In a message dated 1/19/2011 3:06:31 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, engines-list(at)matronics.com (engines-list(at)matronics.com) writes:
| Quote: |
That technique is based on anecdotal evidence at best. The term
"cautionary" begs the question. You can do what everyone else does, same as
the lemming. Good science is nice, good engineering is even better. Both
require data (or evidence) to in order to follow accepted practice.
Price out for yourself an oil analysis. Familiarize yourself with the
credentials and writings of Mike Busch. Price out an overhaul, then price
out an accident that almost totals the aircraft (assuming you have
insurance). Balance the costs versus the benefits. I have not even asked
you to include an analysis of the cost for injury or death.
Oil analysis can't prevent every bad thing, but knowledge is still power,
and the price of this knowledge is less than that of 3 gallons of fuel. The
science (or engineering) is well founded.
- Doug target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Engines-Listtp://forums.matronics.com_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution |
012345
6 7
[quote][b]
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teamgrumman(at)yahoo.com
Guest
|
| Posted: Thu Jan 20, 2011 11:11 am Post subject: Oil Filters |
|
|
If the engine had a broken ring, a compression test would have picked it up.
Besides, how would a ring break? Detonation? If that's the case, there is more damage than just the ring.
From: Richard Dudley <rhdudley1(at)bellsouth.net>
To: engines-list(at)matronics.com
Sent: Thu, January 20, 2011 7:30:24 AM
Subject: Re: Re: Oil Filters
I've been following the thread with interest and thought that I'd add my "anecdotal" tidbit.
Some years ago with my jointly owned Cherokee 235 we routinely had oil analysis done at each oil change. Soon after an oil change, my partner was away with the plane when I received a phone call from the analysis company that the results were grossly abnormal. Their conclusion from the predominant changes in a couple of elements was that there was a broken ring. I managed to contact my partner with those results. He had the cylinders bore scoped and found the scored cylinder with the broken ring. The consensus was that it was safe to return home with the broken ring. Upon return to home base, the cylinder and piston were replaced. Without the analysis and until that cylinder showed major loss of compression, we would not have known of the broken ring. The implications of continuing to run the engine with broken ring seem undesirable.
Rich Dudley
On 1/20/2011 9:57 AM, Doug Dodson wrote:
>
> I thought it went without saying, but of course oil analysis is about
> trend monitoring. A single report has little value. The utility
> comes by having a series of reports at regular intervals. The
> reports are normalized to account for the makeup oil added between
> samples. Have a sample analyzed at each oil change. The trend
> analysis will show an issue before the oil filter does.
>
>
>
>
>
> - Doug
>
>
>
>
>
> -------------------------
>
> *From:*owner-engines-list-server(at)matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-engines-list-server(at)matronics.com (owner-engines-list-server(at)matronics.com)] *On Behalf Of *Noel
> Loveys *Sent:* Thursday, January 20, 2011 6:26 AM *To:*
> engines-list(at)matronics.com (engines-list(at)matronics.com) *Subject:* RE: Re: Oil
> Filters
>
>
>
> I agree with you Barry except about running the filter for 100 hr.
> If there is anything in the filter running it another fifty or in
> this case 67 hr won’t do anything good for the engine. Change it at
> the 33 hr with the oil. In fact if you can’t get fresh oil I would
> recommend changing the filter anyway.
>
>
>
> Oil analysis is something I would recommend for fleet operators...
> give the bean counters something to do. As you said without a base
> line to work form you won’t be able to notice trends in the
> precipitate. Anyone who is paying for oil analysis should keep a
> chart of the results and keep both the chart and the reports in the
> engine log. That way as they update the chart after each report they
> will have to see if trends continue or if one or more constituents
> are increasing.
>
>
>
> Noel
>
>
>
> *From:*owner-engines-list-server(at)matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-engines-list-server(at)matronics.com (owner-engines-list-server(at)matronics.com)] *On Behalf Of
> *FLYaDIVE *Sent:* January 20, 2011 1:39 AM *To:*
> engines-list(at)matronics.com (engines-list(at)matronics.com) *Subject:* Re: Re: Oil
> Filters
>
>
>
> AN OIL ANALYSIS IS A WASTE OF MONEY!
>
>
>
> OK, do I have your attention?
>
>
>
> Here is why...
>
>
>
> Lets say you are running one of the two major manufacture engines and
> you have a oil consumption of 1 quart in 10 hours.
>
> This is slightly above average for Lycoming & Continental, usually 1
> Qt in 8 to 9 hours is more common.
>
>
>
> Next is the quantity of oil your engine holds.
>
> Again for the big two 8 Qts is what is stamped on your dip stick.
>
> BUT! If you put in 8 Qts you are blowing out one Qt in the first
> hour... So, 7 Qts is more in line with what you should be using.
>
> So lets use 7 Qts for this exercise.
>
> Now, what kind of oil filter are you using? Lets say you have a Spin
> On or ADC filter.
>
> That give you 50 Hours of flight time before you should change your
> oil.
>
> If you have the standard screen you will be doing an oil change in 25
> hours.
>
> But, we will work with 50 hours.
>
> You can do the same math with 25 hours but that will really scare
> you.
>
>
>
> OK, here we go....
>
> 50 hours divided by 10 hours per qt = 5 Qts - That means 5 Qts will
> be added between oil changes.
>
> If yo want to use 8 hrs per Qt then...
>
> 50 / 8 = 6.26 Qts
>
> What does that mean?
>
> Well, When you take your oil sample to ship out for oil analysis you
> have already replace ... Wait for it ...
>
> Case #1 --- 5/7ths of your oil capacity. That is 71.4% of the oil
> capacity in your engine.
>
> Case #2 --- 6.26/7ths of your oil capacity. That is 89.4% of the oil
> capacity in your engine.
>
>
>
> SOOoooo What are you really checking? Only the remaining oil after
> 5/7ths or 6.26/7ths of the oil has been swapped out.
>
> Now some may say that is OK as long as you always swap out the same
> amount.
>
> For me that is not good data.
>
>
>
> Oh, how much does it cost for oil analysis, I think it is $12 to $15
> plus shipping.
>
> Let's say $15... That is about 1/3 the cost of a case of oil.
>
> Or, 47.6% of the cost of a single oil change. (7 Qts x $4.50/Qt =
> $31.50)
>
>
>
> NOW! You want to do something good for your engine and spend the
> same amount of money?
>
> Take that $15 and do an oil change at 33 Hours ... That is 1/3
> sooner.
>
> What about the Oil Filter? Change it ONLY at 100 Hour intervals.
>
> You will now have cleaner oil going through your engine AND your
> filter.
>
> For those of you that are already changing your filter at 100 Hrs ...
> Stretch it to 130 Hrs.
>
>
>
> One last point. After reading a few oil analysis reports. What one
> thing do they all have in common?
>
> There is a statement at the bottom that reads something like this:
> More Data is Required for Trend Analysis.
>
> When it comes to this, I have stories for you!
>
>
>
> Bottom line: Oil changed regularly does more for an engine and YOUR
> piece of mind than any after the fact piece of paper.
>
>
>
> Barry
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On Wed, Jan 19, 2011 at 8:40 PM, <Speedy11(at)aol.com (Speedy11(at)aol.com)
> <mailto:Speedy11(at)aol.com> (Speedy11(at)aol.com)> wrote:
>
> Doug,
>
> Nobody is arguing with you. An oil analysis is a great idea. We've
> all used the same reasoning you did.
>
> I was offering no technique at all - so there was no anecdotal
> evidence on which to base said technique. And I'm not sure what
> question the word cautionary begs.
>
> Getting an oil analysis is a great technique. Keep it up.
>
> Stan Sutterfield
>
> Do not archive
>
>
>
>
>
> In a message dated 1/19/2011 3:06:31 A.M. Eastern Standard Time,
> engines-list(at)matronics.com (engines-list(at)matronics.com) <mailto:engines-list(at)matronics.com> (engines-list(at)matronics.com)
> writes:
>
> That technique is based on anecdotal evidence at best. The term
> "cautionary" begs the question. You can do what everyone else does,
> same as the lemming. Good science is nice, good engineering is even
> better. Both require data (or evidence) to in order to follow
> accepted practice.
>
>
> Price out for yourself an oil analysis. Familiarize yourself with
> the credentials and writings of Mike Busch. Price out an overhaul,
> then price out an accident that almost totals the aircraft (assuming
> you have insurance). Balance the costs versus the benefits. I have
> not even asked you to include an analysis of the cost for injury or
> death.
>
>
> Oil analysis can't prevent every bad thing, but knowledge is still
> power, and the price of this knowledge is less than that of 3 gallons
> of fuel. The science (or engineering) is well founded.
>
>
> - Doug
>
> * * * *
> *target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Engines-List*
> *tp://forums.matronics.com*
> *_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution* * *
>
>
>
> * * * * * * *[url=http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Engines-List*]http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Engines-List*[/url] * *
> *http://forums.matronics.com* * *
> *[url=http://www.matronics.com/contribution*]http://www.matronics.com/contribution*[/url] * * * * *
>
> href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Engines-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Engines-List
>
>
href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
> href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c
>
>
*
> *
>
> Features
Browse, Chat,
> available via
> generous
> >
>
| Quote: | http://www.matronics.com/contribution</=============
|
| | - The Matronics Engines-List Email Forum - | | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
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|
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|
teamgrumman(at)yahoo.com
Guest
|
| Posted: Thu Jan 20, 2011 11:13 am Post subject: Oil Filters |
|
|
"There is nothing wrong with doing an oil analysis. It is not terribly expensive and gives peace of mind to those who like tracking data."
Kind of like the TSA. It does nothing for your safety, it just makes you feel good.
Come to think of it, masturbation does the same thing.
From: "Speedy11(at)aol.com" <Speedy11(at)aol.com>
To: engines-list(at)matronics.com
Sent: Thu, January 20, 2011 7:44:21 AM
Subject: Re: Oil Filters
Barry,
Allow me to get your attention.
Your opinion is one among many. There's no need to yell your opinion at the rest of us.
There is nothing wrong with doing an oil analysis. It is not terribly expensive and gives peace of mind to those who like tracking data.
I am not one who does oil sampling. I agree that regularly changing the oil is the best means of maintaining an aircraft engine.
Stan Sutterfield
In a message dated 1/20/2011 3:05:24 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, engines-list(at)matronics.com writes:
| Quote: | AN OIL ANALYSIS IS A WASTE OF MONEY!
OK, do I have your attention?
|
[quote][b]
| | - The Matronics Engines-List Email Forum - | | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
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|
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|
|
rhdudley1(at)bellsouth.ne
Guest
|
| Posted: Thu Jan 20, 2011 11:57 am Post subject: Oil Filters |
|
|
To answer your questions:
1. Possibly, a compression test would pick up a broken ring. But the next compression test would be done at the next annual which would have been done months later with the damage continuing.
2. We don't know how what caused the ring to break. The engine had approximately 700 hours since new.
3. There were no signs of detonation and the problem did not recur.
4. The oil analysis picked up the broken ring because of the scoring of the cylinder wall and the increased of the elements from the scored cylinder wall and scored piston. And yes, the cylinder wall was scored as well as the piston. The damage was enough to replace both the piston and cylinder. Though it was about 40 years ago, I still have the piston with its gouges.
4. That experience convinced us that the investments of, whatever, $10-$15 and a few minutes of our time were worthwhile.
Regards,
Rich
On 1/20/2011 2:09 PM, Gary Vogt wrote: [quote] If the engine had a broken ring, a compression test would have picked it up.
Besides, how would a ring break? Â Detonation? Â If that's the case, there is more damage than just the ring.
From: Richard Dudley <rhdudley1(at)bellsouth.net> (rhdudley1(at)bellsouth.net)
To: engines-list(at)matronics.com (engines-list(at)matronics.com)
Sent: Thu, January 20, 2011 7:30:24 AM
Subject: Re: Re: Oil Filters
I've been following the thread with interest and thought that I'd add my "anecdotal" tidbit.
Some years ago with my jointly owned Cherokee 235 we routinely had oil analysis done at each oil change. Soon after an oil change, my partner was away with the plane when I received a phone call from the analysis company that the results were grossly abnormal. Their conclusion from the predominant changes in a couple of elements was that there was a broken ring. I managed to contact my partner with those results. He had the cylinders bore scoped and found the scored cylinder with the broken ring. The consensus was that it was safe to return home with the broken ring. Upon return to home base, the cylinder and piston were replaced. Without the analysis and until that cylinder showed major loss of compression, we would not have known of the broken ring. The implications of continuing to run the engine with broken ring seem undesirable.
Rich Dudley
On 1/20/2011 9:57 AM, Doug Dodson wrote:
>
> I thought it went without saying, but of course oil analysis
is about
> trend monitoring. A single report has little value. The
utility
> comes by having a series of reports at regular intervals. The
> reports are normalized to account for the makeup oil added
between
> samples. Have a sample analyzed at each oil change. The trend
> analysis will show an issue before the oil filter does.
>
>
>
>
>
> - Doug
>
>
>
>
>
> -------------------------
>
> *From:*owner-engines-list-server(at)matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-engines-list-server(at)matronics.com (owner-engines-list-server(at)matronics.com)] *On Behalf
Of *Noel
> Loveys *Sent:* Thursday, January 20, 2011 6:26 AM *To:*
> engines-list(at)matronics.com (engines-list(at)matronics.com) *Subject:* RE: Re:
Oil
> Filters
>
>
>
> I agree with you Barry except about running the filter for
100 hr.
> If there is anything in the filter running it another fifty
or in
> this case 67 hr won’t do anything good for the engine. Change
it at
> the 33 hr with the oil. In fact if you can’t get fresh oil I
would
> recommend changing the filter anyway.
>
>
>
> Oil analysis is something I would recommend for fleet
operators...
> give the bean counters something to do. As you said without a
base
> line to work form you won’t be able to notice trends in the
> precipitate. Anyone who is paying for oil analysis should
keep a
> chart of the results and keep both the chart and the reports
in the
> engine log. That way as they update the chart after each
report they
> will have to see if trends continue or if one or more
constituents
> are increasing.
>
>
>
> Noel
>
>
>
> *From:*owner-engines-list-server(at)matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-engines-list-server(at)matronics.com (owner-engines-list-server(at)matronics.com)] *On Behalf
Of
> *FLYaDIVE *Sent:* January 20, 2011 1:39 AM *To:*
> engines-list(at)matronics.com (engines-list(at)matronics.com) *Subject:* Re: Re:
Oil
> Filters
>
>
>
> AN OIL ANALYSIS IS A WASTE OF MONEY!
>
>
>
> OK, do I have your attention?
>
>
>
> Here is why...
>
>
>
> Lets say you are running one of the two major manufacture
engines and
> you have a oil consumption of 1 quart in 10 hours.
>
> This is slightly above average for Lycoming &
Continental, usually 1
> Qt in 8 to 9 hours is more common.
>
>
>
> Next is the quantity of oil your engine holds.
>
> Again for the big two 8 Qts is what is stamped on your dip
stick.
>
> BUT! If you put in 8 Qts you are blowing out one Qt in the
first
> hour... So, 7 Qts is more in line with what you should be
using.
>
> So lets use 7 Qts for this exercise.
>
> Now, what kind of oil filter are you using? Lets say you have
a Spin
> On or ADC filter.
>
> That give you 50 Hours of flight time before you should
change your
> oil.
>
> If you have the standard screen you will be doing an oil
change in 25
> hours.
>
> But, we will work with 50 hours.
>
> You can do the same math with 25 hours but that will really
scare
> you.
>
>
>
> OK, here we go....
>
> 50 hours divided by 10 hours per qt = 5 Qts - That means 5
Qts will
> be added between oil changes.
>
> If yo want to use 8 hrs per Qt then...
>
> 50 / 8 = 6.26 Qts
>
> What does that mean?
>
> Well, When you take your oil sample to ship out for oil
analysis you
> have already replace ... Wait for it ...
>
> Case #1 --- 5/7ths of your oil capacity. That is 71.4% of the
oil
> capacity in your engine.
>
> Case #2 --- 6.26/7ths of your oil capacity. That is 89.4% of
the oil
> capacity in your engine.
>
>
>
> SOOoooo What are you really checking? Only the remaining oil
after
> 5/7ths or 6.26/7ths of the oil has been swapped out.
>
> Now some may say that is OK as long as you always swap out
the same
> amount.
>
> For me that is not good data.
>
>
>
> Oh, how much does it cost for oil analysis, I think it is $12
to $15
> plus shipping.
>
> Let's say $15... That is about 1/3 the cost of a case of oil.
>
> Or, 47.6% of the cost of a single oil change. (7 Qts x
$4.50/Qt =
> $31.50)
>
>
>
> NOW! You want to do something good for your engine and spend
the
> same amount of money?
>
> Take that $15 and do an oil change at 33 Hours ... That is
1/3
> sooner.
>
> What about the Oil Filter? Change it ONLY at 100 Hour
intervals.
>
> You will now have cleaner oil going through your engine AND
your
> filter.
>
> For those of you that are already changing your filter at 100
Hrs ...
> Stretch it to 130 Hrs.
>
>
>
> One last point. After reading a few oil analysis reports.
What one
> thing do they all have in common?
>
> There is a statement at the bottom that reads something like
this:
> More Data is Required for Trend Analysis.
>
> When it comes to this, I have stories for you!
>
>
>
> Bottom line: Oil changed regularly does more for an engine
and YOUR
> piece of mind than any after the fact piece of paper.
>
>
>
> Barry
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On Wed, Jan 19, 2011 at 8:40 PM, <Speedy11(at)aol.com (Speedy11(at)aol.com)
> <mailto:Speedy11(at)aol.com> (Speedy11(at)aol.com)> wrote:
>
> Doug,
>
> Nobody is arguing with you. An oil analysis is a great idea.
We've
> all used the same reasoning you did.
>
> I was offering no technique at all - so there was no
anecdotal
> evidence on which to base said technique. And I'm not sure
what
> question the word cautionary begs.
>
> Getting an oil analysis is a great technique. Keep it up.
>
> Stan Sutterfield
>
> Do not archive
>
>
>
>
>
> In a message dated 1/19/2011 3:06:31 A.M. Eastern Standard
Time,
> engines-list(at)matronics.com (engines-list(at)matronics.com)
<mailto:engines-list(at)matronics.com> (engines-list(at)matronics.com)
> writes:
>
> That technique is based on anecdotal evidence at best. The
term
> "cautionary" begs the question. You can do what everyone else
does,
> same as the lemming. Good science is nice, good engineering
is even
> better. Both require data (or evidence) to in order to follow
> accepted practice.
>
>
> Price out for yourself an oil analysis. Familiarize yourself
with
> the credentials and writings of Mike Busch. Price out an
overhaul,
> then price out an accident that almost totals the aircraft
(assuming
> you have insurance). Balance the costs versus the benefits. I
have
> not even asked you to include an analysis of the cost for
injury or
> death.
>
>
> Oil analysis can't prevent every bad thing, but knowledge is
still
> power, and the price of this knowledge is less than that of 3
gallons
> of fuel. The science (or engineering) is well founded.
>
>
> - Doug
>
> * * * *
>
*target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Engines-List*
> *tp://forums.matronics.com*
> *_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution* * *
>
>
>
> * * * * * * *[url=http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Engines-List*]http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Engines-List*[/url]
* *
> *http://forums.matronics.com* * *
> *[url=http://www.matronics.com/contribution*]http://www.matronics.com/contribution*[/url] * * * * *
>
>
href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Engines-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Engines-List
>
>
href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
>
href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c
>
>
*
> *
>
>
Features
Browse, Chat,
>
available via
>
generous
>
>
>
[b]
| | - The Matronics Engines-List Email Forum - | | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
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|
|
|
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|
|
rhdudley1(at)bellsouth.ne
Guest
|
| Posted: Thu Jan 20, 2011 11:59 am Post subject: Oil Filters |
|
|
WOW!
There is more to this than inconvenience when we are subjected to that kind of diatribe!!!
On 1/20/2011 2:10 PM, Gary Vogt wrote: [quote] "There is nothing wrong with doing an oil analysis. It is not terribly expensive and gives peace of mind to those who like tracking data."
Kind of like the TSA. It does nothing for your safety, it just makes you feel good.
Come to think of it, masturbation does the same thing.
From: "Speedy11(at)aol.com" (Speedy11(at)aol.com) <Speedy11(at)aol.com> (Speedy11(at)aol.com)
To: engines-list(at)matronics.com (engines-list(at)matronics.com)
Sent: Thu, January 20, 2011 7:44:21 AM
Subject: Re: Oil Filters
Barry,
Allow me to get your attention.
Your opinion is one among many. There's no need to yell your opinion at the rest of us.
There is nothing wrong with doing an oil analysis. It is not terribly expensive and gives peace of mind to those who like tracking data.
I am not one who does oil sampling. I agree that regularly changing the oil is the best means of maintaining an aircraft engine.
Stan Sutterfield
In a message dated 1/20/2011 3:05:24 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, engines-list(at)matronics.com (engines-list(at)matronics.com) writes:
| Quote: | AN OIL ANALYSIS IS A WASTE OF MONEY!
OK, do I have your attention?
|
[b]
| | - The Matronics Engines-List Email Forum - | | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Engines-List |
|
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
teamgrumman(at)yahoo.com
Guest
|
| Posted: Thu Jan 20, 2011 7:47 pm Post subject: Oil Filters |
|
|
what kind of engine?
Pulling the engine through will reveal a weak cylinder.
Flying a plane with which you are familiar will reveal a weak engine.
From: Richard Dudley <rhdudley1(at)bellsouth.net>
To: engines-list(at)matronics.com
Sent: Thu, January 20, 2011 11:54:29 AM
Subject: Re: Re: Oil Filters
To answer your questions:
1. Possibly, a compression test would pick up a broken ring. But the next compression test would be done at the next annual which would have been done months later with the damage continuing.
2. We don't know how what caused the ring to break. The engine had approximately 700 hours since new.
3. There were no signs of detonation and the problem did not recur.
4. The oil analysis picked up the broken ring because of the scoring of the cylinder wall and the increased of the elements from the scored cylinder wall and scored piston. And yes, the cylinder wall was scored as well as the piston. The damage was enough to replace both the piston and cylinder. Though it was about 40 years ago, I still have the piston with its gouges.
4. That experience convinced us that the investments of, whatever, $10-$15 and a few minutes of our time were worthwhile.
Regards,
Rich
On 1/20/2011 2:09 PM, Gary Vogt wrote: | Quote: | If the engine had a broken ring, a compression test would have picked it up.
Besides, how would a ring break? Detonation? If that's the case, there is more damage than just the ring.
From: Richard Dudley <rhdudley1(at)bellsouth.net> (rhdudley1(at)bellsouth.net)
To: engines-list(at)matronics.com (engines-list(at)matronics.com)
Sent: Thu, January 20, 2011 7:30:24 AM
Subject: Re: Re: Oil Filters
I've been following the thread with interest and thought that I'd add my "anecdotal" tidbit.
Some years ago with my jointly owned Cherokee 235 we routinely had oil analysis done at each oil change. Soon after an oil change, my partner was away with the plane when I received a phone call from the analysis company that the results were grossly abnormal. Their conclusion from the predominant changes in a couple of elements was that there was a broken ring. I managed to contact my partner with those results. He had the cylinders bore scoped and found the scored cylinder with the broken ring. The consensus was that it was safe to return home with the broken ring. Upon return to home base, the cylinder and piston were replaced. Without the analysis and until that cylinder showed major loss of compression, we would not have known of the broken ring. The implications of continuing to run the engine with broken ring seem undesirable.
Rich Dudley
On 1/20/2011 9:57 AM, Doug Dodson wrote:
>
> I thought it went without saying, but of course oil analysis
is about
> trend monitoring. A single report has little value. The
utility
> comes by having a series of reports at regular intervals. The
> reports are normalized to account for the makeup oil added
between
> samples. Have a sample analyzed at each oil change. The trend
> analysis will show an issue before the oil filter does.
>
>
>
>
>
> - Doug
>
>
>
>
>
> -------------------------
>
> *From:*owner-engines-list-server(at)matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-engines-list-server(at)matronics.com (owner-engines-list-server(at)matronics.com)] *On Behalf
Of *Noel
> Loveys *Sent:* Thursday, January 20, 2011 6:26 AM *To:*
> engines-list(at)matronics.com (engines-list(at)matronics.com) *Subject:* RE: Engines-List: Re:
Oil
> Filters
>
>
>
> I agree with you Barry except about running the filter for
100 hr.
> If there is anything in the filter running it another fifty
or in
> this case 67 hr won’t do anything good for the engine. Change
it at
> the 33 hr with the oil. In fact if you can’t get fresh oil I
would
> recommend changing the filter anyway.
>
>
>
> Oil analysis is something I would recommend for fleet
operators...
> give the bean counters something to do. As you said without a
base
> line to work form you won’t be able to notice trends in the
> precipitate. Anyone who is paying for oil analysis should
keep a
> chart of the results and keep both the chart and the reports
in the
> engine log. That way as they update the chart after each
report they
> will have to see if trends continue or if one or more
constituents
> are increasing.
>
>
>
> Noel
>
>
>
> *From:*owner-engines-list-server(at)matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-engines-list-server(at)matronics.com (owner-engines-list-server(at)matronics.com)] *On Behalf
Of
> *FLYaDIVE *Sent:* January 20, 2011 1:39 AM *To:*
> engines-list(at)matronics.com (engines-list(at)matronics.com) *Subject:* Re: Re:
Oil
> Filters
>
>
>
> AN OIL ANALYSIS IS A WASTE OF MONEY!
>
>
>
> OK, do I have your attention?
>
>
>
> Here is why...
>
>
>
> Lets say you are running one of the two major manufacture
engines and
> you have a oil consumption of 1 quart in 10 hours.
>
> This is slightly above average for Lycoming &
Continental, usually 1
> Qt in 8 to 9 hours is more common.
>
>
>
> Next is the quantity of oil your engine holds.
>
> Again for the big two 8 Qts is what is stamped on your dip
stick.
>
> BUT! If you put in 8 Qts you are blowing out one Qt in the
first
> hour... So, 7 Qts is more in line with what you should be
using.
>
> So lets use 7 Qts for this exercise.
>
> Now, what kind of oil filter are you using? Lets say you have
a Spin
> On or ADC filter.
>
> That give you 50 Hours of flight time before you should
change your
> oil.
>
> If you have the standard screen you will be doing an oil
change in 25
> hours.
>
> But, we will work with 50 hours.
>
> You can do the same math with 25 hours but that will really
scare
> you.
>
>
>
> OK, here we go....
>
> 50 hours divided by 10 hours per qt = 5 Qts - That means 5
Qts will
> be added between oil changes.
>
> If yo want to use 8 hrs per Qt then...
>
> 50 / 8 = 6.26 Qts
>
> What does that mean?
>
> Well, When you take your oil sample to ship out for oil
analysis you
> have already replace ... Wait for it ...
>
> Case #1 --- 5/7ths of your oil capacity. That is 71.4% of the
oil
> capacity in your engine.
>
> Case #2 --- 6.26/7ths of your oil capacity. That is 89.4% of
the oil
> capacity in your engine.
>
>
>
> SOOoooo What are you really checking? Only the remaining oil
after
> 5/7ths or 6.26/7ths of the oil has been swapped out.
>
> Now some may say that is OK as long as you always swap out
the same
> amount.
>
> For me that is not good data.
>
>
>
> Oh, how much does it cost for oil analysis, I think it is $12
to $15
> plus shipping.
>
> Let's say $15... That is about 1/3 the cost of a case of oil.
>
> Or, 47.6% of the cost of a single oil change. (7 Qts x
$4.50/Qt =
> $31.50)
>
>
>
> NOW! You want to do something good for your engine and spend
the
> same amount of money?
>
> Take that $15 and do an oil change at 33 Hours ... That is
1/3
> sooner.
>
> What about the Oil Filter? Change it ONLY at 100 Hour
intervals.
>
> You will now have cleaner oil going through your engine AND
your
> filter.
>
> For those of you that are already changing your filter at 100
Hrs ...
> Stretch it to 130 Hrs.
>
>
>
> One last point. After reading a few oil analysis reports.
What one
> thing do they all have in common?
>
> There is a statement at the bottom that reads something like
this:
> More Data is Required for Trend Analysis.
>
> When it comes to this, I have stories for you!
>
>
>
> Bottom line: Oil changed regularly does more for an engine
and YOUR
> piece of mind than any after the fact piece of paper.
>
>
>
> Barry
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On Wed, Jan 19, 2011 at 8:40 PM, <Speedy11(at)aol.com (Speedy11(at)aol.com)
> <mailto:Speedy11(at)aol.com> (Speedy11(at)aol.com)> wrote:
>
> Doug,
>
> Nobody is arguing with you. An oil analysis is a great idea.
We've
> all used the same reasoning you did.
>
> I was offering no technique at all - so there was no
anecdotal
> evidence on which to base said technique. And I'm not sure
what
> question the word cautionary begs.
>
> Getting an oil analysis is a great technique. Keep it up.
>
> Stan Sutterfield
>
> Do not archive
>
>
>
>
>
> In a message dated 1/19/2011 3:06:31 A.M. Eastern Standard
Time,
> engines-list(at)matronics.com (engines-list(at)matronics.com)
<mailto:engines-list(at)matronics.com> (engines-list(at)matronics.com)
> writes:
>
> That technique is based on anecdotal evidence at best. The
term
> "cautionary" begs the question. You can do what everyone else
does,
> same as the lemming. Good science is nice, good engineering
is even
> better. Both require data (or evidence) to in order to follow
> accepted practice.
>
>
> Price out for yourself an oil analysis. Familiarize yourself
with
> the credentials and writings of Mike Busch. Price out an
overhaul,
> then price out an accident that almost totals the aircraft
(assuming
> you have insurance). Balance the costs versus the benefits. I
have
> not even asked you to include an analysis of the cost for
injury or
> death.
>
>
> Oil analysis can't prevent every bad thing, but knowledge is
still
> power, and the price of this knowledge is less than that of 3
gallons
> of fuel. The science (or engineering) is well founded.
>
>
> - Doug
>
> * * * *
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Kelly McMullen
Joined: 16 Apr 2008
Posts: 1188
Location: Sun Lakes AZ
|
| Posted: Thu Jan 20, 2011 8:11 pm Post subject: Oil Filters |
|
|
It won't on a engine that has a single break in a compression ring. There will be very little loss of compression. All that will be found is shavings in the filter *if* they get by the suction screen, and elevated iron levels. Rings break from age, piston slap, you name it. I personally experienced ring breakage on two different O-300s, one on a rental 172, broke rings in 4 cylinders (at)1500 hours while in cruise flight, one ring in one cylinder in C170 I owned in the past, cause unknown, 800 SMOH. The later didn't show any drop in compression as the ring stayed put, just splitting where there was a ring gap. Just found shavings in the oil screen and elevated iron in oil analysis.
KM
A&P/IA
On Thu, Jan 20, 2011 at 8:44 PM, Gary Vogt <teamgrumman(at)yahoo.com (teamgrumman(at)yahoo.com)> wrote:
| Quote: | what kind of engine?
Pulling the engine through will reveal a weak cylinder.
Flying a plane with which you are familiar will reveal a weak engine.
On 1/20/2011 2:09 PM, Gary Vogt wrote: | Quote: | If the engine had a broken ring, a compression test would have picked it up.
Besides, how would a ring break? Detonation? If that's the case, there is more damage than just the ring.
|
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Float Flyr
Joined: 19 Jul 2006
Posts: 2704
Location: Campbellton, Newfoundland
|
| Posted: Thu Jan 20, 2011 8:39 pm Post subject: Oil Filters |
|
|
With the damage you describe it would have to show up in an oil analysis. This is a clear place where charting the results from change to change would have been helpful.
As for oil analysis being a waste of time and money it sure is, if you don’t keep up the schedule and don’t bother to chart the results.
Oil analysis will show problems that you won’t catch in a filter but what does it hurt to open a filter and have a look at the medium? If you find anything it could save you lot$ of $$$ before an analysis is returned.
On oil changes the short of it is more is better but filter changes are probably more important. Especially if your engine has a pressure by pass on the filter.
Noel
From: owner-engines-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-engines-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Gary Vogt
Sent: January 20, 2011 3:37 PM
To: engines-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: Re: Re: Oil Filters
Quote " Flash forward to 1999. Sure enough, he had 1999 hours on his plane . . . give or take a few. At 1999 hrs, he opted for a LyCon overhaul. When the owner brought me his plane, he told me, "This should be an easy overhaul. I don't want anything fancy like port and polish or anything else. Just the basic overhaul. I've set aside about $18,000 to cover the costs."
Engine comes off and goes to Lycon. I told Ken about the oil analysis and ADC oil filter and that the owner expects this to be a simple overhaul.
The next time I talked to Ken, he told me the engine would need to be aligned bored (the case had been chafing), the crank needed to be reground (it was out of tolerance, the rod bearings were bad and had chewed up the crank), it would need a new cam and lifters (this plane was flown over 300 hours a year), and it would need new cylinders (the cylinders had too many cracks in them to repair.) "
--------------
Bottom line. The oil analysis for the entire time he owned the plane did not tell him his engine was trashed.
Oil analysis is a waste of time and money.
As for fleet operators, they too could save a lot of money just by inspecting the oil filter.
From: Doug Dodson <douglas.dodson(at)pobox.com>
To: engines-list(at)matronics.com
Sent: Thu, January 20, 2011 6:57:07 AM
Subject: RE: Re: Oil Filters
I thought it went without saying, but of course oil analysis is about trend monitoring. A single report has little value. The utility comes by having a series of reports at regular intervals. The reports are normalized to account for the makeup oil added between samples. Have a sample analyzed at each oil change. The trend analysis will show an issue before the oil filter does.
- Doug
From: owner-engines-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-engines-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Noel Loveys
Sent: Thursday, January 20, 2011 6:26 AM
To: engines-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: RE: Re: Oil Filters
I agree with you Barry except about running the filter for 100 hr. If there is anything in the filter running it another fifty or in this case 67 hr won’t do anything good for the engine. Change it at the 33 hr with the oil. In fact if you can’t get fresh oil I would recommend changing the filter anyway.
Oil analysis is something I would recommend for fleet operators... give the bean counters something to do. As you said without a base line to work form you won’t be able to notice trends in the precipitate. Anyone who is paying for oil analysis should keep a chart of the results and keep both the chart and the reports in the engine log. That way as they update the chart after each report they will have to see if trends continue or if one or more constituents are increasing.
Noel
From: owner-engines-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-engines-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of FLYaDIVE
Sent: January 20, 2011 1:39 AM
To: engines-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: Re: Re: Oil Filters
AN OIL ANALYSIS IS A WASTE OF MONEY!
OK, do I have your attention?
Here is why...
Lets say you are running one of the two major manufacture engines and you have a oil consumption of 1 quart in 10 hours.
This is slightly above average for Lycoming & Continental, usually 1 Qt in 8 to 9 hours is more common.
Next is the quantity of oil your engine holds.
Again for the big two 8 Qts is what is stamped on your dip stick.
BUT! If you put in 8 Qts you are blowing out one Qt in the first hour... So, 7 Qts is more in line with what you should be using.
So lets use 7 Qts for this exercise.
Now, what kind of oil filter are you using? Lets say you have a Spin On or ADC filter.
That give you 50 Hours of flight time before you should change your oil.
If you have the standard screen you will be doing an oil change in 25 hours.
But, we will work with 50 hours.
You can do the same math with 25 hours but that will really scare you.
OK, here we go....
50 hours divided by 10 hours per qt = 5 Qts - That means 5 Qts will be added between oil changes.
If yo want to use 8 hrs per Qt then...
50 / 8 = 6.26 Qts
What does that mean?
Well, When you take your oil sample to ship out for oil analysis you have already replace ... Wait for it ..
Case #1 --- 5/7ths of your oil capacity. That is 71.4% of the oil capacity in your engine.
Case #2 --- 6.26/7ths of your oil capacity. That is 89.4% of the oil capacity in your engine.
SOOoooo What are you really checking? Only the remaining oil after 5/7ths or 6.26/7ths of the oil has been swapped out.
Now some may say that is OK as long as you always swap out the same amount.
For me that is not good data.
Oh, how much does it cost for oil analysis, I think it is $12 to $15 plus shipping.
Let's say $15... That is about 1/3 the cost of a case of oil.
Or, 47.6% of the cost of a single oil change. (7 Qts x $4.50/Qt = $31.50)
NOW! You want to do something good for your engine and spend the same amount of money?
Take that $15 and do an oil change at 33 Hours ... That is 1/3 sooner.
What about the Oil Filter? Change it ONLY at 100 Hour intervals.
You will now have cleaner oil going through your engine AND your filter.
For those of you that are already changing your filter at 100 Hrs .. Stretch it to 130 Hrs.
One last point. After reading a few oil analysis reports. What one thing do they all have in common?
There is a statement at the bottom that reads something like this: More Data is Required for Trend Analysis.
When it comes to this, I have stories for you!
Bottom line: Oil changed regularly does more for an engine and YOUR piece of mind than any after the fact piece of paper.
Barry
On Wed, Jan 19, 2011 at 8:40 PM, <Speedy11(at)aol.com (Speedy11(at)aol.com)> wrote:
Doug,
Nobody is arguing with you. An oil analysis is a great idea. We've all used the same reasoning you did.
I was offering no technique at all - so there was no anecdotal evidence on which to base said technique. And I'm not sure what question the word cautionary begs.
Getting an oil analysis is a great technique. Keep it up.
Stan Sutterfield
Do not archive
In a message dated 1/19/2011 3:06:31 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, engines-list(at)matronics.com (engines-list(at)matronics.com) writes:
| Quote: |
That technique is based on anecdotal evidence at best. The term
"cautionary" begs the question. You can do what everyone else does, same as
the lemming. Good science is nice, good engineering is even better. Both
require data (or evidence) to in order to follow accepted practice.
Price out for yourself an oil analysis. Familiarize yourself with the
credentials and writings of Mike Busch. Price out an overhaul, then price
out an accident that almost totals the aircraft (assuming you have
insurance). Balance the costs versus the benefits. I have not even asked
you to include an analysis of the cost for injury or death.
Oil analysis can't prevent every bad thing, but knowledge is still power,
and the price of this knowledge is less than that of 3 gallons of fuel. The
science (or engineering) is well founded.
- Doug target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Engines-Listtp://forums.matronics.com_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution |
012345
678901
23456789 | Quote: | | tp://forums.matronics.com |
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Kitfox III-A
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Kelly McMullen
Joined: 16 Apr 2008
Posts: 1188
Location: Sun Lakes AZ
|
| Posted: Thu Jan 20, 2011 8:51 pm Post subject: Oil Filters |
|
|
A filter will catch things oil analysis wont, and vice versa. Oil analysis is for microscopic size particles, filter is to get things that are visible size. Fretting is likely to get some microscopic aluminum in oil. Piston pin may show there but is more likely to spot flakes in filter.
On Thu, Jan 20, 2011 at 9:34 PM, Noel Loveys <noelloveys(at)yahoo.ca (noelloveys(at)yahoo.ca)> wrote:
| Quote: |
With the damage you describe it would have to show up in an oil analysis. This is a clear place where charting the results from change to change would have been helpful.
As for oil analysis being a waste of time and money it sure is, if you don’t keep up the schedule and don’t bother to chart the results.
Oil analysis will show problems that you won’t catch in a filter but what does it hurt to open a filter and have a look at the medium? If you find anything it could save you lot$ of $$$ before an analysis is returned.
On oil changes the short of it is more is better but filter changes are probably more important. Especially if your engine has a pressure by pass on the filter.
Noel
|
#avg_ls_inline_popup{position: absolute;z-index: 9999;padding: 0px 0px;margin-left: 0px;margin-top: 0px;overflow: hidden;word-wrap: break-word;color: black;font-size: 10px;text-align: left;line-height: 130%;} [quote][b]
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Kelly McMullen
A&P/IA, EAA Tech Counselor
KCHD |
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rhdudley1(at)bellsouth.ne
Guest
|
| Posted: Fri Jan 21, 2011 6:51 am Post subject: Oil Filters |
|
|
Just to complete the story of the Cherokee 235 with the broken ring. The 235 had a Lycoming O-540, a six cylinder engine de-rated to 235 hp.
It had been our procedure to send an oil sample for analysis at every oil change. So, we had a well documented baseline when we got an abnormal analysis. The analysis company who had done our previous analyses noted it immediately and notified us by telephone even before we received the detailed analysis by mail. They told us that the result, because of higher than normal iron and aluminum, and some other elements unique to the rings, that it probably was a broken ring.
If there was a drop in compression on one out of six cylinders it was not noticed in the performance of the engine and it was not normal practice to do a compression test between annuals without some reason.
This experience was a clear cut justification and stone simple reinforcement for the minimal inconvenience and trivial expense of having an oil analysis at each oil change. What more evidence would anyone need to become a believer???
And, why would anyone argue vehemently against such a simple, inexpensive monitor of engine health??
Rich
On 1/20/2011 11:34 PM, Noel Loveys wrote: [quote] v\:* {behavior:url(#default#VML);} o\:* {behavior:url(#default#VML);} w\:* {behavior:url(#default#VML);} .shape {behavior:url(#default#VML);} <![endif]--> <![endif]--> <![endif]-->
With the damage you describe it would have to show up in an oil analysis. This is a clear place where charting the results from change to change would have been helpful.
Â
As for oil analysis being a waste of time and money it sure is, if you don’t keep up the schedule and don’t bother to chart the results.
Â
Oil analysis will show problems that you won’t catch in a filter but what does it hurt to open a filter and have a look at the medium? If you find anything it could save you lot$ of $$$ before an analysis is returned.
Â
On oil changes the short of it is more is better but filter changes are probably more important. Especially if your engine has a pressure by pass on the filter.
Â
Noel
Â
Â
Â
From: owner-engines-list-server(at)matronics.com (owner-engines-list-server(at)matronics.com) [mailto:owner-engines-list-server(at)matronics.com (owner-engines-list-server(at)matronics.com)] On Behalf Of Gary Vogt
Sent: January 20, 2011 3:37 PM
To: engines-list(at)matronics.com (engines-list(at)matronics.com)
Subject: Re: Re: Oil Filters
Â
Quote  "  Flash forward to 1999.  Sure enough, he had 1999 hours on his plane . . .  give or take a few.  At 1999 hrs, he opted for a LyCon overhaul.  When the owner brought me his plane, he told me, "This should be an easy overhaul.  I don't want anything fancy like port and polish or anything else.  Just the basic overhaul.  I've set aside about $18,000 to cover the costs."
Â
Engine comes off and goes to Lycon. Â I told Ken about the oil analysis and ADC oil filter and that the owner expects this to be a simple overhaul.
Â
The next time I talked to Ken, he told me the engine would need to be aligned bored (the case had been chafing), the crank needed to be reground (it was out of tolerance, the rod bearings were bad and had chewed up the crank), it would need a new cam and lifters (this plane was flown over 300 hours a year), and it would need new cylinders (the cylinders had too many cracks in them to repair.) "
Â
--------------
Bottom line. Â The oil analysis for the entire time he owned the plane did not tell him his engine was trashed. Â
Â
Oil analysis is a waste of time and money.
Â
As for fleet operators, they too could save a lot of money just by inspecting the oil filter.
Â
From: Doug Dodson <douglas.dodson(at)pobox.com> (douglas.dodson(at)pobox.com)
To: engines-list(at)matronics.com (engines-list(at)matronics.com)
Sent: Thu, January 20, 2011 6:57:07 AM
Subject: RE: Re: Oil Filters
I thought it went without saying, but of course oil analysis is about trend monitoring. A single report has little value. The utility comes by having a series of reports at regular intervals. The reports are normalized to account for the makeup oil added between samples. Have a sample analyzed at each oil change. The trend analysis will show an issue before the oil filter does.
Â
Â
- Doug
Â
Â
From: owner-engines-list-server(at)matronics.com (owner-engines-list-server(at)matronics.com) [mailto:owner-engines-list-server(at)matronics.com (owner-engines-list-server(at)matronics.com)] On Behalf Of Noel Loveys
Sent: Thursday, January 20, 2011 6:26 AM
To: engines-list(at)matronics.com (engines-list(at)matronics.com)
Subject: RE: Re: Oil Filters
Â
I agree with you Barry except about running the filter for 100 hr. If there is anything in the filter running it another fifty or in this case 67 hr won’t do anything good for the engine. Change it at the 33 hr with the oil. In fact if you can’t get fresh oil I would recommend changing the filter anyway.
Â
Oil analysis is something I would recommend for fleet operators... give the bean counters something to do. As you said without a base line to work form you won’t be able to notice trends in the precipitate. Anyone who is paying for oil analysis  should keep a chart of the results and keep both the chart and the reports in the engine log. That way as they update the chart after each report they will have to see if trends continue or if one or more constituents are increasing.
Â
Noel
Â
From: owner-engines-list-server(at)matronics.com (owner-engines-list-server(at)matronics.com) [mailto:owner-engines-list-server(at)matronics.com (owner-engines-list-server(at)matronics.com)] On Behalf Of FLYaDIVE
Sent: January 20, 2011 1:39 AM
To: engines-list(at)matronics.com (engines-list(at)matronics.com)
Subject: Re: Re: Oil Filters
Â
AN OIL ANALYSIS IS A WASTE OF MONEY!
Â
OK, do I have your attention? Â
Â
Here is why...
Â
Lets say you are running one of the two major manufacture engines and you have a oil consumption of 1 quart in 10 hours.
This is slightly above average for Lycoming & Continental, usually 1 Qt in 8 to 9 hours is more common.
Â
Next is the quantity of oil your engine holds.
Again for the big two 8 Qts is what is stamped on your dip stick.
BUT! Â If you put in 8 Qts you are blowing out one Qt in the first hour... So, 7 Qts is more in line with what you should be using.
So lets use 7 Qts for this exercise.
Now, what kind of oil filter are you using? Â Lets say you have a Spin On or ADC filter.
That give you 50 Hours of flight time before you should change your oil.
If you have the standard screen you will be doing an oil change in 25 hours.
But, we will work with 50 hours.
You can do the same math with 25 hours but that will really scare you.
Â
OK, here we go....
50 hours divided by 10 hours per qt = 5 Qts - That means 5 Qts will be added between oil changes.
If yo want to use 8 hrs per Qt then...
50 / 8 = 6.26 QtsÂ
What does that mean?
Well, When you take your oil sample to ship out for oil analysis you have already replace ... Wait for it ...
Case #1 --- 5/7ths of your oil capacity.  That is 71.4% of the oil capacity in your engine.
Case #2 --- 6.26/7ths of your oil capacity.  That is 89.4% of the oil capacity in your engine.
Â
SOOoooo What are you really checking? Â Only the remaining oil after 5/7ths or 6.26/7ths of the oil has been swapped out.
Now some may say that is OK as long as you always swap out the same amount. Â
For me that is not good data.
Â
Oh, how much does it cost for oil analysis, I think it is $12 to $15 plus shipping.
Let's say $15... That is about 1/3 the cost of a case of oil.
Or, 47.6% of the cost of a single oil change. Â (7 Qts x $4.50/Qt = $31.50)
Â
NOW! Â You want to do something good for your engine and spend the same amount of money?
Take that $15 and do an oil change at 33 Hours ... That is 1/3 sooner.
What about the Oil Filter? Â Change it ONLY at 100 Hour intervals.
You will now have cleaner oil going through your engine AND your filter.
For those of you that are already changing your filter at 100 Hrs ... Stretch it to 130 Hrs.
Â
One last point. Â After reading a few oil analysis reports. Â What one thing do they all have in common?
There is a statement at the bottom that reads something like this: Â More Data is Required for Trend Analysis.
When it comes to this, I have stories for you! Â
Â
Bottom line:  Oil changed regularly does more for an engine and YOUR piece of mind than any after the fact piece of paper.
Â
Barry
Â
Â
Â
Â
On Wed, Jan 19, 2011 at 8:40 PM, <Speedy11(at)aol.com (Speedy11(at)aol.com)> wrote:
Doug,
Nobody is arguing with you. An oil analysis is a great idea. We've all used the same reasoning you did.
I was offering no technique at all - so there was no anecdotal evidence on which to base said technique. And I'm not sure what question the word cautionary begs.
Getting an oil analysis is a great technique. Keep it up.
Stan Sutterfield
Do not archive
Â
Â
In a message dated 1/19/2011 3:06:31 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, engines-list(at)matronics.com (engines-list(at)matronics.com) writes:
| Quote: |
That technique is based on anecdotal evidence at best. The term
"cautionary" begs the question. You can do what everyone else does, same as
the lemming. Good science is nice, good engineering is even better. Both
require data (or evidence) to in order to follow accepted practice.
Price out for yourself an oil analysis. Familiarize yourself with the
credentials and writings of Mike Busch. Price out an overhaul, then price
out an accident that almost totals the aircraft (assuming you have
insurance). Balance the costs versus the benefits. I have not even asked
you to include an analysis of the cost for injury or death.
Oil analysis can't prevent every bad thing, but knowledge is still power,
and the price of this knowledge is less than that of 3 gallons of fuel. The
science (or engineering) is well founded.
- Doug   target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Engines-Listtp://forums.matronics.com_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution  |
Â
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