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WurlyBird

Joined: 16 May 2008
Posts: 207
Location: North Pole, Alaska

Posted: Fri Jan 21, 2011 2:32 am Post subject: Composites and mold work

I am sure there are some people on here with a good amount of experience with composites and I have a few questions for you.  I am looking to make a few parts for my plane when I get home and I want to play with composites and molds.  



One of my biggest concerns is with preparing a mold properly, everything I have been reading involves waxing the mold with several layers and then spraying with a mold release.  Is there any type of mold release that skips the waxing step?  I am considering using some molds with a lot of sharp inside corners so I am concerned about not getting enough wax on and a spray would be much more convenient.



There are countless resin combinations available.  Are any of them better suited to mold work?  I plan on doing some work with carbon fiber for aesthetics, are some resins better for this as far as coloring goes?  I have seen some resins claim to be more clear then others.  I have also seen mention of UV protection.  Still trying to figure all this out so any insight is appreciated.



Does anyone have a preferred method for pulling a plug from an existing part?  The techniques I have read most about and am leaning towards is gel coat painted over the part and then backed with a two part mold putty or fiberglass for strength.



I am sure I will think of more of the questions rolling around in my head after responses.  In the mean time thanks for any input.

_________________
James
Kitfox 3 / 582 / 70" IVO 2 blade GA
50 hrs on the 582 swapping for HKS 700E and Avid Cowl.

poasttown(at)yahoo.com
Guest

Posted: Fri Jan 21, 2011 5:52 am Post subject: Composites and mold work

James

  

 Check out www.fibreglast.com for information concerning composite work.  They are a supplier of products and they also have a section on this website with demonstrations.  I've ordered from them in the past.

  

 Mike

  

 Kitfox IV

 Jabiru 2200



--- On Fri, 1/21/11, WurlyBird <james.t.trizzino(at)us.army.mil> wrote:



  	  Quote: 	
		  

From: WurlyBird <james.t.trizzino(at)us.army.mil>

Subject: Composites and mold work

 --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "WurlyBird" <james.t.trizzino(at)us.army.mil (james.t.trizzino(at)us.army.mil)>



I am sure there are some people on here with a good amount of experience with composites and I have a few questions for you.  

--------

James

Kitfox 3 / 582 / 70&quot; IVO 2 blade GA

50 hrs on the Fox in between deployments,

      now she lies in wait





Read this topic online here:



http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=327758#32775= Use the Matronics List Features Navigator to f="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kitfox-List" target=_blank>http:/http://forums.matronics.com/" target=_blank>http://forums.matronics.com



	


               [quote][b]

Guy Buchanan

Joined: 16 Jul 2006
Posts: 1204
Location: Ramona, CA

Posted: Fri Jan 21, 2011 8:41 am Post subject: Composites and mold work

On 1/21/2011 2:32 AM, WurlyBird wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   One of my biggest concerns is with preparing a mold properly,

    

I've never seen a reliable mold release that's a simple spray-on. I and 
	


the professionals I've worked with have always done 6-8 layers of wax 

plus PVA mold release. Done correctly you won't have corner build-up.



You'll want to minimize sharp corners, particularly for hand-laid parts. 

The various woven goods just don't like to turn corners very sharply so 

you'll be forced to vacuum bag. Otherwise, you'll have to use a milled 

fiber build-up (fillet) in the corner and have the cloth turn inside 

that which leaves the corner material relatively weak and not very 

aesthetic.

 	  Quote: 	
		   There are countless resin combinations available.  Are any of them better suited to mold work?  I plan on doing some work with carbon fiber for aesthetics, are some resins better for this as far as coloring goes?  I have seen some resins claim to be more clear then others.  I have also seen mention of UV protection.  Still trying to figure all this out so any insight is appreciated.

    

The resin you use for tooling depends on how you intend to cure the 
	


part. In general you want a very long pot life and slow, low temperature 

cure for tooling because molds are thick and relatively unstable. If you 

intend to heat cure the part you may will want a tooling resin that you 

can post cure at an elevated temperature so it remains stable when you 

cook the part. See 

http://www.ptm-w.com/dynamicdata/data/docs/pt2520%20bulletin.pdf for a 

likely tooling resin.



For parts I like the System-Three Silver Tip series for clarity. You're 

right that some are clearer than others. You hint that you'll be leaving 

the part natural. For UV protection I rely on the clear-coat I use over 

the cured part. I use Stirling urethane clear coats because they're 

very, very clear and spray on nicely. Expensive, though. I saw that they 

have clear gel-coat now so I suppose it's possible to pull a "finished" 

part from a tool, though I've never seen it done and don't know how 

clear clear gel-coat is.



One more note on clear carbon parts. As you probably well know black 

surfaces get quite hot in the sun. It's possible for black painted steel 

to get up to over 250F in the sun. You're clear-coated carbon part will 

also get quite hot if it's exposed to direct sunlight. This means your 

part will have to be cured at least somewhere near the service 

temperature so it doesn't get all soggy in the sun. This means your tool 

will have to be able to withstand an elevated cure temperature without 

getting all soggy. When I did my clear carbon glare shield I cured it at 

140F on the tool using a black bag and hot air blower, then I post cured 

it at 250F in a crude foam insulation oven with hot-air blower.

 	  Quote: 	
		   Does anyone have a preferred method for pulling a plug from an existing part?  The techniques I have read most about and am leaning towards is gel coat painted over the part and then backed with a two part mold putty or fiberglass for strength.

    

You've got it, though don't forget the mold-release. 
	




Guy Buchanan

Ramona, CA

Kitfox IV-1200 / 592-C / Warp 3cs / 500 hrs. and grounded

_________________
Guy Buchanan
Deceased K-IV 1200
A glider pilot too.

WurlyBird

Joined: 16 May 2008
Posts: 207
Location: North Pole, Alaska

Posted: Fri Jan 21, 2011 9:51 pm Post subject: Re: Composites and mold work

Thanks for the great information.  Here is the first followup question. 



 What does baking a composite part do to the build up?  



Does heating the resin while it is curing cause it to more thoroughly cure?  From the way you phrased it it sounds like if you expect your part to be exposed to 200 deg in use then it should be baked at a minimum of 200 deg during build up, is this about right?  



I do plan on leaving some of the parts natural.  If I get the HKS when I get home I am going to need a new instrument panel and I figure it might as well be carbon or carbon/kevlar.  Light, functional, and sexy, you cant beat it.  With the Kitfox being as low tech and old school as it is, I anticipate that the carbon on the dash will look a little out of place so there will need to be a little carbon here and a little there just to balance it out aesthetically.  I am conceiving a part that will be a LOT of sharp corners but I plan on getting into bagging and maybe even infusion.  If the part I have in my head works out I will be telling you all about it, until then it is hush hush.



In case anyone else has been toying with the idea of bagging but can not find a reasonable set up, check this out:



http://www.veneersupplies.com/

http://www.joewoodworker.com/



Joe Woodworker has designed and has free plans for venturi style vacuum press and vennersupplies sells the kit.  This set up has the benefit of having a vacuum reservoir that can easily be made a little larger and even as published should be great for dash sized projects.

_________________
James
Kitfox 3 / 582 / 70" IVO 2 blade GA
50 hrs on the 582 swapping for HKS 700E and Avid Cowl.

Float Flyr

Joined: 19 Jul 2006
Posts: 2704
Location: Campbellton, Newfoundland

Posted: Sat Jan 22, 2011 6:15 am Post subject: Composites and mold work

Sharp corners in composites usually translates into a place where cracks can

originate.  The same can be true of aluminium which was the major problem

with the old comet airliner.  The windows were all nice square units which

often cracked.



Noel



--

_________________
Noel Loveys
Kitfox III-A
Aerocet 1100 Floats

Guy Buchanan

Joined: 16 Jul 2006
Posts: 1204
Location: Ramona, CA

Posted: Sat Jan 22, 2011 8:02 am Post subject: Composites and mold work

On 1/21/2011 9:51 PM, WurlyBird wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   Does heating the resin while it is curing cause it to more thoroughly cure?  From the way you phrased it it sounds like if you expect your part to be exposed to 200 deg in use then it should be baked at a minimum of 200 deg during build up, is this about right?

Perfect.
	


 	  Quote: 	
		   Joe Woodworker has designed and has free plans for venturi style vacuum press and vennersupplies sells the kit.  This set up has the benefit of having a vacuum reservoir that can easily be made a little larger and even as published should be great for dash sized projects.

    

I did the verturi thing once and it required an ENORMOUS amount of air 
	


which I didn't have. I got a surplus vacuum pump instead.



Guy Buchanan

Ramona, CA

Kitfox IV-1200 / 592-C / Warp 3cs / 500 hrs. and grounded

_________________
Guy Buchanan
Deceased K-IV 1200
A glider pilot too.

Lynn Matteson

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 2778
Location: Grass Lake, Michigan

Posted: Sat Jan 22, 2011 10:04 am Post subject: Composites and mold work

I bought the air compressor-powered vacuum bagging kit and have yet  

to finish the completion of the pump. I got mine over a year ago,  

after seeing one that a friend built from one of  He likes the way it  

works, but cautioned me that using the bagging system....any bagging  

system....is very costly in materials. He said that the raw materials  

used up and thrown away counts up, and he found that he doesn't use  

his bagging method as much since he discovered that. Just be aware of  

the cost of doing vacuum bagging, and see if you really need to "bag  

it" or if it just sounds like a really cool thing to do....like I  

did. : )



By the way, I bought my kit when I was thinking of using it to make a  

pair of skis, then went in another direction. I will finish the  

vacuum pump one of these days, and then actually use it,  but the  

cost of the supplies that are scrapped during its use should justify  

the use. If you can make the part light without bagging, that part  

will be a lot cheaper.



Lynn Matteson

Kitfox IV Speedster, taildragger

Jabiru 2200, #2062

Sensenich 62"x 55.5 Wood (winter) until the Prince prop arrives

Electroair direct-fire ignition system

Rotec TBI-40 injection

Status: flying...1078+ hrs (since 3-27-2006)

On Jan 22, 2011, at 12:51 AM, WurlyBird wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   

 <james.t.trizzino(at)us.army.mil>



 Thanks for the great information.  Here is the first followup  

 question.



  What does baking a composite part do to the build up?



 Does heating the resin while it is curing cause it to more  

 thoroughly cure?  From the way you phrased it it sounds like if you  

 expect your part to be exposed to 200 deg in use then it should be  

 baked at a minimum of 200 deg during build up, is this about right?



 I do plan on leaving some of the parts natural.  If I get the HKS  

 when I get home I am going to need a new instrument panel and I  

 figure it might as well be carbon or carbon/kevlar.  Light,  

 functional, and sexy, you cant beat it.  With the Kitfox being as  

 low tech and old school as it is, I anticipate that the carbon on  

 the dash will look a little out of place so there will need to be a  

 little carbon here and a little there just to balance it out  

 aesthetically.  I am conceiving a part that will be a LOT of sharp  

 corners but I plan on getting into bagging and maybe even  

 infusion.  If the part I have in my head works out I will be  

 telling you all about it, until then it is hush hush.



 In case anyone else has been toying with the idea of bagging but  

 can not find a reasonable set up, check this out:



 http://www.veneersupplies.com/

 http://www.joewoodworker.com/



 Joe Woodworker has designed and has free plans for venturi style  

 vacuum press and vennersupplies sells the kit.  This set up has the  

 benefit of having a vacuum reservoir that can easily be made a  

 little larger and even as published should be great for dash sized  

 projects.



 --------

 James

 Kitfox 3 / 582 / 70&quot; IVO 2 blade GA

 50 hrs on the Fox in between deployments,

       now she lies in wait





 Read this topic online here:



 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=327856#327856

_________________
Lynn
Kitfox IV-Jabiru 2200
N369LM

lcfitt(at)sbcglobal.net
Guest

Posted: Sat Jan 22, 2011 10:25 am Post subject: Composites and mold work

Just a couple of comments on the project.  I have a lot of experience - 

amateur type - with composites and getting it right takes some real effort 

and perfect? - lots of remakes.  I can't say, I have ever gotten a part out 

of the mold perfect.  Most of mine are for painting and a little micro goes 

a long way for nice.  Not to discourage, but with the cost of the equipment, 

materials and time, it seems to me that a one off part would be less 

expensive if farmed out to a pro shop.  If you like the challenge, as I  do, 

or like to learn new skills, then go for it, but in reality plan on paying a 

premium for the home brew parts.

One idea for the sharp edged parts, though.  I think a female mold would 

work best and if the part is not too large, I have experimented with a very 

soft silicone rubber sheet as the vacuum bagging material.  The typical 

material will not stretch enough to get into the tightest corners and as Guy 

suggested, the glass doesn't like to bend.  One way to help a bit there is 

to cut the cloth on a bias.  Then there is the issue of getting all the air 

out of the corners.  A vacuum bagging system will remove all air that it has 

access to.  Air trapped in a sharp corner will be there to stay, unless 

there is clear access for it's escape into the vacuum - not sure how I would 

manage that.

You also mentioned the infusion method.  I think as Guy suggested, this 

technique would require a good quality vacuum pump.  A venturi wouldn't give 

the vacuum you will need to move the resin.  I don't know what you are 

planning, planning but this would help in the sharp corner area unless it 

would be a box as I can't visualize the resin flow.  Something long like a 

lift strut fairing might work.

Also keep in mind that the way you handle the release film (type) and 

bleeder ply will determine the density of the part and if there are 

pinholes - not desirable in your panel lay-up.  An example of this is the 

fuel tanks we use - all vacuum bagged and pinholes galore to the point of 

the need for sloshing to keep the gas in.

Lowell

--------------------------------------------------

From: "Guy Buchanan" <gebuchanan(at)cox.net>

Sent: Saturday, January 22, 2011 7:57 AM

To: <kitfox-list(at)matronics.com>

Subject: Re: Re: Composites and mold work

 	  Quote: 	

 On 1/21/2011 9:51 PM, WurlyBird wrote:

> Does heating the resin while it is curing cause it to more thoroughly 

> cure?  From the way you phrased it it sounds like if you expect your part 

> to be exposed to 200 deg in use then it should be baked at a minimum of 

> 200 deg during build up, is this about right?

 Perfect.

> Joe Woodworker has designed and has free plans for venturi style vacuum 

> press and vennersupplies sells the kit.  This set up has the benefit of 

> having a vacuum reservoir that can easily be made a little larger and 

> even as published should be great for dash sized projects.

>

 I did the verturi thing once and it required an ENORMOUS amount of air 

 which I didn't have. I got a surplus vacuum pump instead.

 Guy Buchanan

 Ramona, CA

 Kitfox IV-1200 / 592-C / Warp 3cs / 500 hrs. and grounded

WurlyBird

Joined: 16 May 2008
Posts: 207
Location: North Pole, Alaska

Posted: Sat Jan 22, 2011 11:23 am Post subject: Re: Composites and mold work

 	  Lynn Matteson wrote: 	
		  see if you really need to "bag  

it" or if it just sounds like a really cool thing to do....like I  

did. : ) 	




C'mon, we are talking about not structural parts for a Kitfox.  It is not necessary to use composites at all much less vacuum bagging.  It is definitely because it sounds like the cool thing to do.    I have a tendency to have visions of grandeur with my projects, especially sitting here in a crappy country dreaming about it for a year!  I have been interested in vacuum bagging for as long as I have understood what composites are good for.  I keep adding to my "wish list" at Aircraft Spruce and it certainly costs noticeably more to bag anything.  I am also trying to figure out how much I will actually use the system as it is only NEEDED for one idea I have right now and all I have come up with besides making the occasional part is using it to instantly marinate meats.  I can hear it now;



friend- "What is James doing in the garage?"

wife-  "Marinating the chicken."

now confused friend-  "With an air compressor?!?!"

_________________
James
Kitfox 3 / 582 / 70" IVO 2 blade GA
50 hrs on the 582 swapping for HKS 700E and Avid Cowl.

Guy Buchanan

Joined: 16 Jul 2006
Posts: 1204
Location: Ramona, CA

Posted: Sat Jan 22, 2011 8:52 pm Post subject: Composites and mold work

On 1/22/2011 9:59 AM, Lynn Matteson wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   By the way, I bought my kit when I was thinking of using it to make a 

 pair of skis, then went in another direction. I will finish the vacuum 

 pump one of these days, and then actually use it,  but the cost of the 

 supplies that are scrapped during its use should justify the use. If 

 you can make the part light without bagging, that part will be a lot 

 cheaper. 


	


HAHAHAHAHA! C'mon Lynn. When did ANYTHING in aviation get justified on a 

cost basis. We do it because it's COOL. Way COOL. (Besides, who can pass 

up an opportunity to get more tools.)



Guy Buchanan

Ramona, CA

Kitfox IV-1200 / 592-C / Warp 3cs / 500 hrs. and grounded

_________________
Guy Buchanan
Deceased K-IV 1200
A glider pilot too.

WurlyBird

Joined: 16 May 2008
Posts: 207
Location: North Pole, Alaska

Posted: Sun Jan 23, 2011 12:12 am Post subject: Re: Composites and mold work

Good point Guy, I completely forgot to mention the TOOL factor (not me, the actual tools).  I am always collecting more tools, it drives my wife crazy.  I always claim I can build something for less then it can be bought, of course I never factor in all the tools I don't yet have to that cost.  One day though, I will have all the tools I need

_________________
James
Kitfox 3 / 582 / 70" IVO 2 blade GA
50 hrs on the 582 swapping for HKS 700E and Avid Cowl.

Lynn Matteson

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 2778
Location: Grass Lake, Michigan

Posted: Sun Jan 23, 2011 3:48 am Post subject: Composites and mold work

OK, if the part being built is a flat instrument panel, then no bag  

is required. Just lay out your shape on a plate of glass. The glass  

side will be the outside of the panel. You probably won't even have  

to wax it. By the way, I bought and used the mold release wax, and  

the spray-on release compound, and they both work fine, but so did  

the Johnson's Paste Wax that I have used prior to buying the  

"professional mold releases"...and a lot cheaper, too. A friend of  

mine made a very nice clip board using carbon fiber which he laid out  

on glass and it came out looking super...very smooth, because he  

squeeged the excess resin off the layup, and used the glass side as  

the front surface....a sheet of nylon or plastic works too.

Lynn Matteson

Kitfox IV Speedster, taildragger

Jabiru 2200, #2062

Sensenich 62"x 55.5 Wood (winter) until the Prince prop arrives

Electroair direct-fire ignition system

Rotec TBI-40 injection

Status: flying...1078+ hrs (since 3-27-2006)

On Jan 22, 2011, at 2:23 PM, WurlyBird wrote:

 	  Quote: 	

 <james.t.trizzino(at)us.army.mil>

 Lynn Matteson wrote:

> see if you really need to "bag

> it" or if it just sounds like a really cool thing to do....like I

> did. : )

 C'mon, we are talking about not structural parts for a Kitfox.  It  

 is not necessary to use composites at all much less vacuum  

 bagging.  It is definitely because it sounds like the cool thing to  

 do.    I have a tendency to have visions of grandeur with my  

 projects, especially sitting here in a crappy country dreaming  

 about it for a year!  I have been interested in vacuum bagging for  

 as long as I have understood what composites are good for.  I keep  

 adding to my "wish list" at Aircraft Spruce and it certainly costs  

 noticeably more to bag anything.  I am also trying to figure out  

 how much I will actually use the system as it is only NEEDED for  

 one idea I have right now and all I have come up with besides  

 making the occasional part is using it to instantly marinate  

 meats.  I can hear it now;

 friend- "What is James doing in the garage?"

 wife-  "Marinating the chicken."

 now confused friend-  "With an air compressor?!?!"

  [Shocked]

 --------

 James

 Kitfox 3 / 582 / 70&quot; IVO 2 blade GA

 50 hrs on the Fox in between deployments,

       now she lies in wait

_________________
Lynn
Kitfox IV-Jabiru 2200
N369LM

Lynn Matteson

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 2778
Location: Grass Lake, Michigan

Posted: Sun Jan 23, 2011 6:37 am Post subject: Composites and mold work

I can NEVER pass up a new tool...especially if it's high on the "cool  

tool" barometer. : )  Hell, I've got some cool tools that are so  

beyond my personal (used once) usage, that I have to use them on my  

CFI' s airplanes just to *justify* their purchase.



By the way, when I was waiting for the air compressor-powered vacuum  

bagging kit to arrive, I made do with a vacuum cleaner just to run a  

test sample of bagging. It worked, but who wants to listen to the  

vacuum cleaner run for hours...certainly not the dog! : )



Lynn Matteson

Kitfox IV Speedster, taildragger

Jabiru 2200, #2062

Sensenich 62"x 55.5 Wood (winter) until the Prince prop arrives

Electroair direct-fire ignition system

Rotec TBI-40 injection

Status: flying...1078+ hrs (since 3-27-2006)

do not archive



On Jan 22, 2011, at 11:48 PM, Guy Buchanan wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   



 On 1/22/2011 9:59 AM, Lynn Matteson wrote:

> By the way, I bought my kit when I was thinking of using it to  

> make a pair of skis, then went in another direction. I will finish  

> the vacuum pump one of these days, and then actually use it,  but  

> the cost of the supplies that are scrapped during its use should  

> justify the use. If you can make the part light without bagging,  

> that part will be a lot cheaper.



 HAHAHAHAHA! C'mon Lynn. When did ANYTHING in aviation get justified  

 on a cost basis. We do it because it's COOL. Way COOL. (Besides,  

 who can pass up an opportunity to get more tools.)



 Guy Buchanan

 Ramona, CA

 Kitfox IV-1200 / 592-C / Warp 3cs / 500 hrs. and grounded

_________________
Lynn
Kitfox IV-Jabiru 2200
N369LM

Float Flyr

Joined: 19 Jul 2006
Posts: 2704
Location: Campbellton, Newfoundland

Posted: Sun Jan 23, 2011 6:49 am Post subject: Composites and mold work

Most if not all commercial parts are cured in an autoclave.  They use vacuum

inside the bagging and pressure outside with of course heat.  The heat is

required to make the Layup cloths cure.  Without the heat the cloth can

actually never properly cure.



Noel



--

_________________
Noel Loveys
Kitfox III-A
Aerocet 1100 Floats

Float Flyr

Joined: 19 Jul 2006
Posts: 2704
Location: Campbellton, Newfoundland

Posted: Sun Jan 23, 2011 7:03 am Post subject: Composites and mold work

Vacuum bagging results in very strong light parts when done properly.  There

is another problem with bagging and that is the possibility of voids inside

the part which you can only find with ultrasound or industrial X-ray.  Even

the commercial composite companies spend a lot of time checking each and

every part they make looking for weaknesses and voids.



For repair work there is a machine available, called a Hot Shot, which comes

in a suitcase.  It has hoses, sniffers and a heat blanket in the case to

cure Pre-Preg cloth.  Don't ask how much!



Noel



--

_________________
Noel Loveys
Kitfox III-A
Aerocet 1100 Floats

Lynn Matteson

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 2778
Location: Grass Lake, Michigan

Posted: Sun Jan 23, 2011 7:26 am Post subject: Composites and mold work

Noel-

Using the terms "layup cloths" and "the cloth can never properly  

cure" sounds like you're referring to "pre-pegs", right? I just never  

figured the pre-pegs were in my league for the parts that I was  

looking to make, let alone an autoclave.



By the way, the ski "spats" that I just made (to keep the snow off  

the airplane's skis) were laid up over Poly-fiber fabric, which was  

painted with a spray can (just to seal the weave of the fabric, waxed  

with mold release wax, then sprayed with PVA release film. I applied  

the Polyfiber fabric over the skis, tightened it down, painted it and  

went to work with the fiberglass....e-glass, that is.  Two layers of  

this came out to 28-32 thousandths thick, and strong. The resulting  

spats weigh about 20 ounces each. I just wish the skis were  

relatively light as well....that'll come next.



Lynn Matteson

Kitfox IV Speedster, taildragger

Jabiru 2200, #2062

Sensenich 62"x 55.5 Wood (winter) until the Prince prop arrives

Electroair direct-fire ignition system

Rotec TBI-40 injection

Status: flying...1078+ hrs (since 3-27-2006)

On Jan 23, 2011, at 9:39 AM, Noel Loveys wrote:



[quote] 



 Most if not all commercial parts are cured in an autoclave.  They  

 use vacuum

 inside the bagging and pressure outside with of course heat.  The  

 heat is

 required to make the Layup cloths cure.  Without the heat the cloth  

 can

 actually never properly cure.



 Noel



 --

_________________
Lynn
Kitfox IV-Jabiru 2200
N369LM

Guy Buchanan

Joined: 16 Jul 2006
Posts: 1204
Location: Ramona, CA

Posted: Sun Jan 23, 2011 8:39 am Post subject: Composites and mold work

On 1/23/2011 2:51 AM, great bear wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   I definitely agree that

 vacuum bagging parts is a waste of material and time for the projects we are

 doing...if you were building one of rutans space planes or 50 foot windmill

 props I could see a reason....but fuel tanks and speedcuffs, cowling..little

 fairings....not worth the time and extra material..

Hi. Would you please put your full name, location and aircraft type / 
	


status in your signature line? We, the moderators, find it makes for a 

much more congenial atmosphere. Thanks.



Regarding vacuum bagging. It is far more expensive but I  recommended it 

based on a suggestion of sharp corners in the part. There's no way to 

get female corners sharp in a contact laminate, and male corners are 

deucedly hard. (Though it can be done with some crude tooling.) Glasairs 

and Lancairs and most other composite kit aircraft were designed very 

carefully to avoid vacuum bagging, with all the sharp corners in the 

provided kit parts.



Guy Buchanan - List moderator

Ramona, CA

Kitfox IV-1200 / 592-C / Warp 3cs / 500 hrs. and grounded

_________________
Guy Buchanan
Deceased K-IV 1200
A glider pilot too.

Pat Reilly

Joined: 06 Aug 2009
Posts: 345

Posted: Sun Jan 23, 2011 9:03 am Post subject: Composites and mold work

James, The problem is once you have that many tools you either can't find them or can't remember if you have a specific tool. Hell, I got divorced 11 years ago, and sold virtually all my tools at that time. In the last 6 years I once again have accumulated a hanger and a garage full of tools, often duplicated because if I need it at home the tool is at the hanger and visa versa. By the way has anybody got an auto lift for sale. When I buy the hanger next to mine I have it figured out how I can install it and still get 2 planes in. I have a stick welder, wire welder and acyletlene set up. But, I still need a TIG unit if you have one you aren't using.....HA  It's an addiction! But, I have been able to resist ever buying vaccume bagging equipment. And researching what vaccume bagging takes, I'll stick with West System products and hand layup.

   

 Pat Reilly

 Mod 3 582 Rebuilt

 Rockford, IL 

 On Sun, Jan 23, 2011 at 2:12 AM, WurlyBird <james.t.trizzino(at)us.army.mil (james.t.trizzino(at)us.army.mil)> wrote:

  	  Quote: 	
		  --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "WurlyBird" <james.t.trizzino(at)us.army.mil (james.t.trizzino(at)us.army.mil)>

 

Good point Guy, I completely forgot to mention the TOOL factor (not me, the actual tools).  I am always collecting more tools, it drives my wife crazy.  I always claim I can build something for less then it can be bought, of course I never factor in all the tools I don't yet have to that cost.  One day though, I will have all the tools I need  

 

--------

James

Kitfox 3 / 582 / 70&quot; IVO 2 blade GA

50 hrs on the Fox in between deployments,

     now she lies in wait





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Pat Reilly

Mod 3 582 Rebuild

Rockford,IL

  [quote][b]

Lynn Matteson

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 2778
Location: Grass Lake, Michigan

Posted: Sun Jan 23, 2011 10:10 am Post subject: Composites and mold work

The West System 5:1 pumps are great, too...IF that's what the ratio  

needs to be....but I use a way to make less than the 1-ounce of mix  

that one stroke of the pumps puts out. It's no big deal, but if you  

need, say, a partial ounce to finish up a job, or just a small job  

that will need less than an ounce, just use two equal-size cups on  

the balance scales...one on each side...and put a 10-32 nut in one  

cup and *carefully* pump hardener until the scales balance again.  

Then add 5 nuts of the same size and pump the resin until the scales  

balance again...simple math/physics, and you've cheated the waste  

basket of some otherwise wasted epoxy.



Lynn Matteson

Kitfox IV Speedster, taildragger

Jabiru 2200, #2062

Sensenich 62"x 55.5 Wood (winter) until the Prince prop arrives

Electroair direct-fire ignition system

Rotec TBI-40 injection

Status: flying...1078+ hrs (since 3-27-2006)





On Jan 23, 2011, at 11:54 AM, Patrick Reilly wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   James, The problem is once you have that many tools you either  

 can't find them or can't remember if you have a specific tool.  

 Hell, I got divorced 11 years ago, and sold virtually all my tools  

 at that time. In the last 6 years I once again have accumulated a  

 hanger and a garage full of tools, often duplicated because if I  

 need it at home the tool is at the hanger and visa versa. By the  

 way has anybody got an auto lift for sale. When I buy the hanger  

 next to mine I have it figured out how I can install it and still  

 get 2 planes in. I have a stick welder, wire welder and acyletlene  

 set up. But, I still need a TIG unit if you have one you aren't  

 using.....HA  It's an addiction! But, I have been able to resist  

 ever buying vaccume bagging equipment. And researching what vaccume  

 bagging takes, I'll stick with West System products and hand layup.



 Pat Reilly

 Mod 3 582 Rebuilt

 Rockford, IL

_________________
Lynn
Kitfox IV-Jabiru 2200
N369LM

michael.logan1(at)verizon
Guest

Posted: Sun Jan 23, 2011 10:17 am Post subject: Composites and mold work

Chrissi and Randi of the Cozy Girrrls

(http://www.cozygirrrl.com/menupage.htm) have developed a low cost vacuum

bagging process that is pretty cool and does not cost much in wasted

materials.  I watched them makes some pieces at Sun-n-Fun last year and it

really works.

Mike Logan

Series 5 RAM EA81



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