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brubakermal(at)yahoo.com
Guest

Posted: Sun Feb 06, 2011 5:55 am Post subject: club planes?

We had an interesting  discussion on linkedin this weekend. All about flight instruction and the idea of turning an experimental into a club plane so an instructor could legally use it to teach the owners  to fly.   This theory is viable and there is FAA approval to do this.  

 What I think would really jump start the process is a pre-developed general format.  One that would be easy for people to follow  in developing their own club and fractional ownership;  not much different than the downloads a person can buy to write their own will or start a non profit 401c3 corporation. These always contain several disclaimers and liability waivers just like the ones we used in the old days to teach ultralight flying.  

 This would help the ultralight pilot and sport pilot want-to-be, as well as the instructor. 

 The idea of teaching someone to fly in a $14,000 plane with a 582 is not that far fetched. We all know people that have.  It seemes like a better option than the $60,000 to $100,000 planes everyone thinks they currently need . When a student becomes a licensed pilot they can transition up.  

 What this sport needs now is for people to stop focusing on the problem and develope a solution.  The ultralight trainer was so successful that it was turned into a sport pilot plane; and that took 20 years.    Even a 2 place Kolb classic could qualify.

 



Malcolm Brubaker 

Michigan Sport

Pilot Repair 

LSRM-A, PPC, WS

(989)513-3022  



 

   From: Pat Ladd <pj.ladd(at)btinternet.com>

To: kolb-list(at)matronics.com

Sent: Sat, February 5, 2011 10:45:06 AM

Subject: Re: Kolb list: Pitot probe



   Hi Mike,

 << I added my own extension>>

  

 Nice neat job.

  

 Pat

[quote][b][b]

Dana

Joined: 13 Dec 2007
Posts: 1047
Location: Connecticut, USA

Posted: Sun Feb 06, 2011 6:41 am Post subject: club planes?

Had a discussion like awhile ago also on Oshkosh365, I think it was.  Unfortunately the Oshkosh365 forum software is so bad participating there is a painful ordeal.



 I think it's a viable approach.  I'd be pursuing it if there was a field near here suitable for instruction.



 -Dana



 At 08:49 AM 2/6/2011, Malcolm Brubaker wrote:

  	  Quote: 	
		  We had an interesting  discussion on linkedin this weekend. All about flight instruction and the idea of turning an experimental into a club plane so an instructor could legally use it to teach the owners  to fly.   This theory is viable and there is FAA approval to do this.  

 What I think would really jump start the process is a pre-developed general format.  One that would be easy for people to follow  in developing their own club and fractional ownership;  not much different than the downloads a person can buy to write their own will or start a non profit 401c3 corporation. These always contain several disclaimers and liability waivers just like the ones we used in the old days to teach ultralight flying.  

 This would help the ultralight pilot and sport pilot want-to-be, as well as the instructor. 

 The idea of teaching someone to fly in a $14,000 plane with a 582 is not that far fetched. We all know people that have.  It seemes like a better option than the $60,000 to $100,000 planes everyone thinks they currently need . When a student becomes a licensed pilot they can transition up.  

 What this sport needs now is for people to stop focusing on the problem and develope a solution.  The ultralight trainer was so successful that it was turned into a sport pilot plane; and that took 20 years.    Even a 2 place Kolb classic could qualify.

  

 Malcolm Brubaker 

 Michigan Sport

 Pilot Repair 

 LSRM-A, PPC, WS

 (989)513-3022 



 

 

 From: Pat Ladd <pj.ladd(at)btinternet.com>

 To: kolb-list(at)matronics.com

 Sent: Sat, February 5, 2011 10:45:06 AM

 Subject: Re: Kolb list: Pitot probe

 

 Hi Mike,

 << I added my own extension>>

  

 Nice neat job.

  

 Pat



 

 



  	  Quote: 	
		   http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-List

- MATRONICS WEB FORUMS -

http://forums.matronics.com

- List Contribution Web Site -

-Matt Dralle, List Admin.

http://www.matronics.com/contribution



[/b] 	
	


 --

 The gene pool could use a little chlorine.     

    [quote][b]

captainron1(at)cox.net
Guest

Posted: Sun Feb 06, 2011 8:31 am Post subject: club planes?

Well that's a good idea. Could certainly use it (My M3X) here in KFHU, it may even motivate me more to finish my project faster, which is 90% complete with 100% left to do kinda thing.

However ignoring the FAA in this equation is pretty much kicking the can down the road. I think in terms of movement there has to be a wide ranging recognition the the FAA is the problem in general aviation. Fearing the FAA or thinking in terms of compliance with FAA all the time as we do now is strangling aviation. If there is no concerted effort to truncate their pervasive intrusion into aviation; the contraction will continue.

I think I mentioned before that I almost never see young kids around taking flying lessons anymore. Its not because aviation has stopped firing up the imagination of the younger generation, its because the fun the freedom and the joy have been stomped out of flying by the FAA to an alarming degree. By all rights the Kolb factory should be busy and backlogged for orders, yet it is not happening. So the idea of a club to circumvent FAA rules is a valid and good, but it will not reverse the difficulty of being an aircraft owner aviator. The future is as it has always been in people owning their aircraft and plying the skies in freedom. I have yet to see an organization come about that makes it as its prime objective to restore freedom to aviate, by going after the source of the constraints. That is what we need most of all right now.



---- Malcolm Brubaker <brubakermal(at)yahoo.com> wrote: 



=============

We had an interestingÂ  discussion on linkedin thisÂ weekend.Â All aboutÂ flight 

instruction and the idea of turning an experimental into a club plane so an 

instructor could legallyÂ use it toÂ teachÂ the ownersÂ  to fly.Â Â  This theory is 

viable and there isÂ FAA approval to do this.Â  



WhatÂ I think would really jump start the process is a pre-developed general 

format.Â Â One that would be easy forÂ people to followÂ  in developing their 

ownÂ club and fractional ownership;Â Â not much different than the downloads a 

person can buy to write their own will or start a non profit 401c3 corporation. 

These always contain several disclaimers and liability waivers just like the 

ones we used in the old days to teach ultralight flying.Â  



This would help the ultralight pilot and sport pilot want-to-be, as well as the 

instructor. 



The idea of teaching someone to fly in a $14,000 plane with a 582 is not that 

far fetched. We all know people thatÂ have.Â  It seemes like a better option than 

the $60,000 to $100,000 planes everyone thinks they currently need .Â When 

aÂ studentÂ becomes a licensed pilotÂ they can transition up.Â  



What this sport needs now is for people to stop focusing on the problem and 

develope a solution.Â  The ultralight trainer was so successful that it was 

turned into a sport pilot plane; and that took 20 years.Â Â Â Â Even a 2 place Kolb 

classic could qualify.

Â Malcolm Brubaker 

Michigan Sport

Pilot Repair 

LSRM-A, PPC, WS

(989)513-3022 





________________________________

From: Pat Ladd <pj.ladd(at)btinternet.com>

To: kolb-list(at)matronics.com

Sent: Sat, February 5, 2011 10:45:06 AM

Subject: Re: Kolb list: Pitot probe

Hi Mike,

<<Â I added my own extension>>



Nice neat job.

Â 

P==============  





--

kugelair.com

Thom Riddle

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1597
Location: Buffalo, NY, USA (9G0)

Posted: Mon Feb 07, 2011 5:05 am Post subject: Re: club planes?

When our group of three owned a Rans S6 Exp A/B and I had an active instructor's certificate, I considered this. I spoke to our insurance agent about it and learned the following.



- Every member in the group must have an equity stake in the organization. Some "significant" equity at risk is required but need not be equal for all members.

- The group instructor does not have to be a member.

- Our insurance limited the total membership to 5 (at one time). Over that and the insurance policy would have to be for a commercial operation which would make the premiums on the order of 3 times as high.

- Do not use the term "CLUB" because this implies (to insurance folks) a non-equity membership organization.

- Students would have to pay an extra insurance premium until they received their full certificate (sport or private). 



So, this idea is viable and the aircraft insurable for small groups, but not for large clubs. Different insurance companies may view this differently.

_________________
Thom Riddle
Buffalo, NY (9G0)

Don't worry about old age... it doesn't last very long.
- Anonymous

Dana

Joined: 13 Dec 2007
Posts: 1047
Location: Connecticut, USA

Posted: Mon Feb 07, 2011 5:33 am Post subject: club planes?

At 08:05 AM 2/7/2011, Thom Riddle wrote:

  	  Quote: 	
		  --> Kolb-List message posted by: "Thom Riddle" <riddletr(at)gmail.com>



 When our group of three owned a Rans S6 Exp A/B and I had an active instructor's certificate, I considered this. I spoke to our insurance agent about it... 	


 That addresses the insurance aspects and is useful information, but doesn't address the FAA (paid instruction in an experimental) aspect... although a similar logic _might_ apply.



 -Dana

 

 --

 2000 mockingbirds = two kilomockingbirds

    [quote][b]

Thom Riddle

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1597
Location: Buffalo, NY, USA (9G0)

Posted: Mon Feb 07, 2011 5:49 am Post subject: Re: club planes?

Dana,

The FAA regs allow instruction in any experimental aircraft which is owned by the person receiving the instruction. My FSDO said that partial ownership or indirect ownership (share holder in a corporation that owns the aircraft) qualifies as long as there is an equity position in the aircraft.

_________________
Thom Riddle
Buffalo, NY (9G0)

Don't worry about old age... it doesn't last very long.
- Anonymous

mdnanwelch7(at)hotmail.co
Guest

Posted: Mon Feb 07, 2011 6:31 am Post subject: club planes?

> The FAA regs allow instruction in any experimental aircraft which is owned by the person receiving the instruction. > --------

 	  Quote: 	
		   Thom Riddle


	


 Thom, & knowledgeable 'regs' guys,

  

   Your statement above is excellent information, but what about the situation

 where a plane is just given it's airworthiness certificate?

   I get the impression what you said is fine for a fully built, previous flown

 airplane, but what about a brand new one?

   Once a plane is finally finished, aren't you supposed to fly off a certain

 number of hours before someone can be in the plane also?

   How does that work?  I never have clearly understood how this part works.

  

   After rereading your statement, I think I'm getting more confused.  If a person

 had a CFI teach him to fly, OF COURSE he could be taught in ANY (legal) airplane.

  

   My question is;  How can a guy learn to fly his brand new, never flown, just 

 licenced, experimental airplane?  Can he have an instructor go with him on his

 maiden flight?  Does anyone know how this works??  

  

   We've had a few recent incidents where lowtime Kolb pilots bent their planes 

 (and themselves).  What does the FAA regs say to address this problem?

  

 Thanks.

 Mike Welch

 MkIII

 		 	   		    [quote][b]

Thom Riddle

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1597
Location: Buffalo, NY, USA (9G0)

Posted: Mon Feb 07, 2011 6:44 am Post subject: Re: club planes?

Mike,

You are correct. The phase one flying must be complete for more than required crew to be aboard. The builder of an experimental aircraft who is not already a certificated pilot must learn to fly like the rest of us, in another airplane that is legal for instruction. In the case of experimental aircraft that means one that is in phase 2 testing and owned, at least partially, by the wannabe pilot.

_________________
Thom Riddle
Buffalo, NY (9G0)

Don't worry about old age... it doesn't last very long.
- Anonymous

rickofudall

Joined: 19 Sep 2009
Posts: 1392
Location: Udall, KS, USA

Posted: Mon Feb 07, 2011 8:01 am Post subject: club planes?

Mike, You cannot take anyone along for any reason during phase 1 testing, UNLESS, you can show that that person is essential for some aspect of your test program and would have to be cleared by the FSDO that sets your test area and phase 1 testing requirements. Teaching you to fly your aircraft is not part of a test program of the aircraft. Your best bet is to get someone else, who has the experience, to do your initial test flights. 



Rick Girard



On Mon, Feb 7, 2011 at 8:27 AM, Mike Welch <mdnanwelch7(at)hotmail.com (mdnanwelch7(at)hotmail.com)> wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		        > The FAA regs allow instruction in any experimental aircraft which is owned by the person receiving the instruction. > --------

 	  Quote: 	
		   Thom Riddle


	


 Thom, & knowledgeable 'regs' guys,

  

   Your statement above is excellent information, but what about the situation

 where a plane is just given it's airworthiness certificate?

   I get the impression what you said is fine for a fully built, previous flown

 airplane, but what about a brand new one?

   Once a plane is finally finished, aren't you supposed to fly off a certain

 number of hours before someone can be in the plane also?

   How does that work?  I never have clearly understood how this part works.

  

   After rereading your statement, I think I'm getting more confused.  If a person

 had a CFI teach him to fly, OF COURSE he could be taught in ANY (legal) airplane.

  

   My question is;  How can a guy learn to fly his brand new, never flown, just 

 licenced, experimental airplane?  Can he have an instructor go with him on his

 maiden flight?  Does anyone know how this works??  

  

   We've had a few recent incidents where lowtime Kolb pilots bent their planes 

 (and themselves).  What does the FAA regs say to address this problem?

  

 Thanks.

 Mike Welch

 MkIII

 		 	   		     	  Quote: 	
		  



get="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-List

tp://forums.matronics.com

_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution



	




	


-- 

Zulu Delta

Mk IIIC

Thanks, Homer GBYM

It isn't necessary to have relatives in Kansas City in order to be unhappy.

   - Groucho Marx



 

  [quote][b]

_________________
The smallest miracle right in front of you is enough to make you happy....

slyck(at)frontiernet.net
Guest

Posted: Mon Feb 07, 2011 8:39 am Post subject: club planes?

- good advice.  And be sure his experience isn't limited to the Cessna 150/cherokee varieties.  That is how I cameto buy a "slightly" damaged cage assembly for my hybrid MkIII.  Some assembly  was required.

BB



On 7, Feb 2011, at 10:57 AM, Richard Girard wrote:

[quote]Mike, You cannot take anyone along for any reason during phase 1 testing, UNLESS, you can show that that person is essential for some aspect of your test program and would have to be cleared by the FSDO that sets your test area and phase 1 testing requirements. Teaching you to fly your aircraft is not part of a test program of the aircraft. Your best bet is to get someone else, who has the experience, to do your initial test flights. 



Rick Girard



On Mon, Feb 7, 2011 at 8:27 AM, Mike Welch <mdnanwelch7(at)hotmail.com (mdnanwelch7(at)hotmail.com)> wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		        > The FAA regs allow instruction in any experimental aircraft which is owned by the person receiving the instruction. > --------

 	  Quote: 	
		   Thom Riddle


	


 Thom, & knowledgeable 'regs' guys,

  

   Your statement above is excellent information, but what about the situation

 where a plane is just given it's airworthiness certificate?

   I get the impression what you said is fine for a fully built, previous flown

 airplane, but what about a brand new one?

   Once a plane is finally finished, aren't you supposed to fly off a certain

 number of hours before someone can be in the plane also?

   How does that work?  I never have clearly understood how this part works.

  

   After rereading your statement, I think I'm getting more confused.  If a person

 had a CFI teach him to fly, OF COURSE he could be taught in ANY (legal) airplane.

  

   My question is;  How can a guy learn to fly his brand new, never flown, just 

 licenced, experimental airplane?  Can he have an instructor go with him on his

 maiden flight?  Does anyone know how this works??  

  

   We've had a few recent incidents where lowtime Kolb pilots bent their planes 

 (and themselves).  What does the FAA regs say to address this problem?

  

 Thanks.

 Mike Welch

 MkIII

 		 	   		     	  Quote: 	
		  



get="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-List

tp://forums.matronics.com

_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution



	




	


-- 

Zulu Delta

Mk IIIC

Thanks, Homer GBYM

It isn't necessary to have relatives in Kansas City in order to be unhappy.

   - Groucho Marx



 

   	  Quote: 	
		  

	
[b]

mdnanwelch7(at)hotmail.co
Guest

Posted: Mon Feb 07, 2011 12:55 pm Post subject: club planes?

Hi Rick,

 

  Thanks for the clarification.   This is a confirmation of what I have always understood.

 

Mike Welch

 

[quote]Mike, You cannot take anyone along for any reason during phase 1 testing, UNLESS, you can show that that person is essential for some >aspect of your test program and would have to be cleared by the FSDO that sets your test area and phase 1 testing requirements. >Teaching you to fly your aircraft is not part of a test program of the aircraft. Your best bet is to get someone else, who has the >experience, to do your initial test flights

brubakermal(at)yahoo.com
Guest

Posted: Mon Feb 07, 2011 2:27 pm Post subject: club planes?

We have established the need.  We have proven viability.  We even have an apparent precedent.  So, what next?

An easy to follow format with all the "legal" jargon included for the average "layman" CFI or old BFI properly providing for that "equity position".  Could such a "position" be covered by something so simple as a "damage deposit" on the aircraft?? 

 

Malcolm Brubaker 

Michigan Sport

Pilot Repair 

LSRM-A, PPC, WS

(989)513-3022

From: Mike Welch <mdnanwelch7(at)hotmail.com>

To: kolb-list(at)matronics.com

Sent: Mon, February 7, 2011 9:27:30 AM

Subject: RE: Re: club planes?



      > The FAA regs allow instruction in any experimental aircraft which is owned by the person receiving the instruction. > --------

 	  Quote: 	
		   Thom Riddle


	


 Thom, & knowledgeable 'regs' guys,

  

   Your statement above is excellent information, but what about the situation

 where a plane is just given it's airworthiness certificate?

   I get the impression what you said is fine for a fully built, previous flown

 airplane, but what about a brand new one?

   Once a plane is finally finished, aren't you supposed to fly off a certain

 number of hours before someone can be in the plane also?

   How does that work?  I never have clearly understood how this part works.

  

   After rereading your statement, I think I'm getting more confused.  If a person

 had a CFI teach him to fly, OF COURSE he could be taught in ANY (legal) airplane.

  

   My question is;  How can a guy learn to fly his brand new, never flown, just 

 licenced, experimental airplane?  Can he have an instructor go with him on his

 maiden flight?  Does anyone know how this works??  

  

   We've had a few recent incidents where lowtime Kolb pilots bent their planes 

 (and themselves).  What does the FAA regs say to address this problem?

  

 Thanks.

 Mike Welch

 MkIII

   	  Quote: 	
		  

	


   



         [quote][b]

Dana

Joined: 13 Dec 2007
Posts: 1047
Location: Connecticut, USA

Posted: Mon Feb 07, 2011 3:37 pm Post subject: club planes?

At 09:27 AM 2/7/2011, Mike Welch wrote:



  	  Quote: 	
		    Your statement above is excellent information, but what about the situation

 where a plane is just given it's airworthiness certificate?

   I get the impression what you said is fine for a fully built, previous flown

 airplane, but what about a brand new one?

   Once a plane is finally finished, aren't you supposed to fly off a certain

 number of hours before someone can be in the plane also? 	


 As others have said, the aircraft must be flown solo during the initial testing.  I believe, however, than an instructor can sign a student off for solo in an aircraft still in Phase 1 testing... but of course the student would have to have prior instruction in something else, and the instructor confident in the student's ability to handle anything that might arise.



 -Dana

 --

 The Definition of an Upgrade: Take old bugs out, put new ones in. 

    [quote][b]

Dana

Joined: 13 Dec 2007
Posts: 1047
Location: Connecticut, USA

Posted: Mon Feb 07, 2011 3:48 pm Post subject: club planes?

At 05:19 PM 2/7/2011, Malcolm Brubaker wrote:

  	  Quote: 	
		  We have established the need.  We have proven viability.  We even have an apparent precedent.  So, what next?

 An easy to follow format with all the "legal" jargon included for the average "layman" CFI or old BFI properly providing for that "equity position".  Could such a "position" be covered by something so simple as a "damage deposit" on the aircraft?? 	


 You could pitch it to the prospective student as a "damage deposit".  However, I think it would have to be, in writing, a purchase of a "share" of the corporation owning the aircraft.



 -Dana

 

 --

 Come to think of it, there already are a million monkeys at a million typewriters, and the Internet is _NOTHING_ like Shakespeare! 

    [quote][b]

mdnanwelch7(at)hotmail.co
Guest

Posted: Mon Feb 07, 2011 3:50 pm Post subject: club planes?

>As others have said, the aircraft must be flown solo during the initial testing.  I believe, however, than an instructor can sign a student >off for solo in an aircraft still in Phase 1 testing... but of course the student would have to have prior instruction in something else, and >the instructor confident in the student's ability to handle anything that might arise.

 	  Quote: 	
		  Dana

  
	


 Dana,

  

   In a private conversation, Thom Riddle and I came to the opinion

 that a student pilot can NOT fly an experimental airplane in 'phase 1'

 testing.

  

   For clarification's sake, could someone look this up?

  

 Thanks,  Mike W



  

 		 	   		    [quote][b]

Dana

Joined: 13 Dec 2007
Posts: 1047
Location: Connecticut, USA

Posted: Mon Feb 07, 2011 4:23 pm Post subject: club planes?

At 06:47 PM 2/7/2011, Mike Welch wrote:

  	  Quote: 	
		   

   In a private conversation, Thom Riddle and I came to the opinion

 that a student pilot can NOT fly an experimental airplane in 'phase 1'

 testing.

  

   For clarification's sake, could someone look this up? 	


 It may depend on the operating limitations which are, I believe, at the discretion of the FAA inspector or DAR.



 Back in the Bensen Gyrocopter days (pre 103), it was permissible for a helicopter CFI to sign a student off for solo in their brand new never flown single seat homebuilt gyro (since there were no 2-seat gyros and no gyro CFIs).  I don't know what the deal is nowadays.



 -Dana



 

 --

 Giving money and power to government is like giving whiskey and car keys to teenage boys.  

    [quote][b]

John Hauck

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 4639
Location: Titus, Alabama (hauck's holler)

Posted: Mon Feb 07, 2011 4:54 pm Post subject: club planes?

For clarification's sake, could someone look this up?



Thanks,  Mike W



Q: I've just finished building my Pietenpol, which is an experimental 

amateur-built aircraft that meets the LSA definition. I'm ready to begin the 

phase-one flight testing. I'm a student pilot working toward my sport pilot 

certificate and I don't hold a current medical. Is it legal for me to do the 

flight testing as a student pilot? Can a student pilot fly an experimental 

aircraft at all?



A: Let's take the second part of your question first. There is no regulatory 

prohibition on a student pilot (sport pilot or otherwise) flying an 

experimental aircraft. Pilot requirements, privileges, and limitations are 

found in 14 CFR Part 61, and student pilot privileges and limitations are 

specifically found in subpart C. There is no specific limitation in that 

section prohibiting a student pilot from flying an aircraft with an 

experimental airworthiness certificate.



Now let's look at the first part of your question regarding a student pilot 

(sport pilot or otherwise) flying an experimental aircraft during flight 

testing. Certification requirements for the pilot in command of an 

experimental aircraft are not found in the FAA regulations themselves but 

rather in the operating limitations of the individual aircraft. These 

operating limitations are issued by the FAA as a part of the aircraft's 

airworthiness certificate and will vary depending on exactly what type of 

airworthiness certificate the aircraft holds. For an amateur-built aircraft 

such as your Pietenpol, the operating limitations will contain the following 

statement:



"The pilot in command of this aircraft must hold a pilot certificate or an 

authorized instructor's logbook endorsement. The pilot in command must meet 

the requirements of § 61.31(e), (f), (g), (h), (i), and (j) as appropriate."



Note that the pilot may hold a pilot certificate (which would include sport 

pilot) or an authorized instructor's endorsement. This would open the door 

for a properly endorsed student pilot (including a sport pilot student) to 

fly the aircraft. The limitation makes no distinction between phase-one 

flight testing and phase-two normal operations. This limitation is in place 

for all operations. The limitation does go on to require any appropriate 

endorsements called out by 14 CFR 61.31(e) though (j). The most common of 

these endorsements are for tailwheel aircraft, high-performance aircraft, 

and complex aircraft. The only endorsement applicable to the Pietenpol would 

be the tailwheel endorsement, so the instructor would have to endorse the 

student appropriately before allowing him or her to solo a tailwheel 

aircraft as well as give the standard solo endorsement in order to be in 

compliance with this operating limitation.



Remember that, if the student seeks to solo an aircraft that does not meet 

the definition of a light-sport aircraft he/she would also need to hold a 

3rd class FAA medical certificate.  This would be the case whether the 

aircraft holds a standard or special (such as experimental) airworthiness 

certificate.



The question you did not ask, but one I will answer anyway, is whether it is 

smart for a student pilot to perform the flight testing on an experimental 

aircraft. This is the most important question, and the answer is, no, it is 

not a good idea for a student pilot to perform flight testing on a new 

amateur-built aircraft.



The purpose of flight testing is to verify the aircraft's handling 

characteristics and make sure it does not have any issues that would affect 

the safety of flight. Flight testing a new aircraft should be left to 

experienced pilots who are familiar with the normal handling characteristics 

of the aircraft being tested and are prepared to handle possible emergency 

situations that might arise. A student pilot does not have the background 

and experience to identify abnormal handling characteristics and may not be 

prepared to handle an emergency situation if one should present itself. So 

while it may be technically legal for a student pilot (sport pilot or 

otherwise) to fly an aircraft during the initial flight-test period, I 

strongly discourage this. Find an appropriate test pilot to perform the 

flight tests on the aircraft, then find a qualified instructor to check you 

out in the aircraft after it has been tested.

_________________
John Hauck
MKIII/912ULS
hauck's holler
Titus, Alabama

Thom Riddle

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1597
Location: Buffalo, NY, USA (9G0)

Posted: Mon Feb 07, 2011 5:45 pm Post subject: Re: club planes?

Ok. Perhaps a student pilot working toward sport pilot can legally fly an Exp a/b aircraft during phase 1 with proper endorsements. 



But, 61.87 states clearly that solo endorsements must be for a particular make and model aircraft. So the solo training and endorsement for the student pilot working toward sport pilot certificate to fly his Pietenpol must get that solo training and endorsement in a Pietenpol, not some other type of tail dragger. Since a phase 1 test flights in a Pietepol must be done solo, this student pilot must get his solo training for a Pietenpol in another Pietenpol which is not in phase 1 test phase. If he does not own the other Pietenpol then the instructor can not charge for his instruction in that airplane, since it is an experimental aircraft.



So as a practical matter, it will be somewhat difficult to make happen, not impossible though. But definitely not wise  for an inexperienced student pilot to be doing any testing of any newly built experimental aircraft.

_________________
Thom Riddle
Buffalo, NY (9G0)

Don't worry about old age... it doesn't last very long.
- Anonymous

brubakermal(at)yahoo.com
Guest

Posted: Tue Feb 08, 2011 7:51 am Post subject: club planes?

There has been some significant discussion on the topic of training in ELSA aircraft on some other forums which I am involved in.  CGS Hawk, FLY UL, and LINKDIN are a few.  The responses in those forums spurred me to write this in response.  Please check out those forums if you are interested!

sent to LINKDIN



From hamburger ....  to steak." style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; padding-top: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; border-top-width: 0px; border-right-width: 0px; border-bottom-width: 0px; border-left-width: 0px; border-style: initial; border-color: initial; outline-width: 0px; outline-style: initial; outline-color: initial; font-weight: inherit; font-style: inherit; font-size: 13px; font-family: inherit; vertical-align: baseline; ">I want to keep the focus. What we will be doing is essentially taking hamburger and putting it all back together to make a steak. 

Ultra light flying is getting more difficult because of the non-availability of training. No one is going to give hours of training time and the use of an aircraft for free. Ultra lights therefore, literally, fly under the radar. 

Sport pilots can't do that quite so readily, but unfortunately, many are  trying. While an ELSA built to SLSA standards is an appropriate aircraft, many experimentals simply do not fit the bill for appropriate training aircraft. I make this statement to have it understood that I do not advocate training in ALL experimental aircraft. 

Back to the focus of this discussion. 

I do not have the background I believe is required for developing the type of format needed here. I came up through the ranks of ultra lights as a self taught pilot. I received my BFI, trained several people in ultra lights, then received the training I needed when Sport Pilot came to be to transition to a sport pilot license. 

I have passed the first step - the FOI test - toward getting my CFI. But I do not have the legal background or the depth of knowledge regarding the FARs I feel is needed to produce this format in a viable and usable program for the Sport Pilot training arena. 

Mark, if you or someone else who is  following this thread, or even a group of others, have the knowledge to pull this together, I would be willing to contribute what I can. 

This subject has spurred a lot of discussion as you know here and in other forums. 

Let's see if we can take it to a desired completion. 

There are some people who would be comfortable training with only a verbal contract. 

Others will require a written contract with the basics of cost and damage deposit and a disclaimer of liability in the event of an accident included. Still others will want a written contract in triplicate spelling out every possible nuance, required insurances, and a liability waiver signed by the trainee's family before they feel comfortable taking on the responsibility. And, yet others, will require a corporation development, corporate insurance, an aircraft meeting specified standards..... 

We now need to develop a format that can easily be adapted to  allow each instructor to use their own level of comfort as a guide to what type of contract they want to use. 

From hamburger .... to steak.

 

Malcolm Brubaker 

Michigan Sport   

Pilot Repair 

LSRM-A, PPC, WS

(989)513-3022

From: Malcolm Brubaker <brubakermal(at)yahoo.com>

To: kolb-list(at)matronics.com

Sent: Mon, February 7, 2011 5:19:27 PM

Subject: Re: Re: club planes?



 

We have established the need.  We have proven viability.  We even have an apparent precedent.  So, what next?

An easy to follow format with all the "legal" jargon included for the average "layman" CFI or old BFI properly providing for that "equity position".  Could such a "position" be covered by something so simple as a "damage deposit" on the aircraft?? 

 

Malcolm Brubaker 

Michigan Sport

Pilot Repair 

LSRM-A, PPC, WS

(989)513-3022

From: Mike Welch <mdnanwelch7(at)hotmail.com>

To: kolb-list(at)matronics.com

Sent: Mon, February 7, 2011 9:27:30 AM

Subject: RE: Re: club planes?



      > The FAA regs allow instruction in any experimental aircraft which is owned by the person receiving the instruction. > --------

 	  Quote: 	
		   Thom Riddle


	


 Thom, & knowledgeable 'regs' guys,

  

   Your statement above is excellent information, but what about the situation

 where a plane is just given it's airworthiness certificate?

   I get the impression what you said is fine for a fully built, previous flown

 airplane, but what about a brand new one?

   Once a plane is finally finished, aren't you supposed to fly off a certain

 number of hours before someone can be in the plane also?

   How does that work?  I never have clearly understood how this part works.

  

   After rereading your statement, I think I'm getting more confused.  If a person

 had a CFI teach him to fly, OF COURSE he could be taught in ANY (legal) airplane.

  

   My question is;  How can a guy learn to fly his brand new, never flown, just 

 licenced, experimental airplane?  Can he have an instructor go with him on his

 maiden flight?  Does anyone know how this works??  

  

   We've had a few recent incidents where lowtime Kolb pilots bent their planes 

 (and themselves).  What does the FAA regs say to address this problem?

  

 Thanks.

 Mike Welch

 MkIII

   	  Quote: 	
		  

	


   



        

   



         [quote][b]

brubakermal(at)yahoo.com
Guest

Posted: Thu Feb 10, 2011 5:24 am Post subject: club planes?

Ok Group. This was posted on the CGS hawk forum. I want to say Thank You to Danny Dezauche for a well thought out and candid statement. I agree. So, after you all have read it, chime in here and let's figure out what we are going to do about it! 



To whom it may interest 



I was told by the  FAA that clubs were considered a commercial 

Entity and therefore were only legal for training with "certified 

Aircraft". I was also told "primary" training such as a sport pilot 

License has to be in a certified aircraft. I have been a member 

Of the oldest club in mobile ala for several years which used 

Cessnas etc for rent and training. These of course were certified 

Aircraft 

We here at cgs have lived with the loda and club question for 

Several years now. The belief and hope that training can and will 

Be allowed in Elsa aircraft has existed since the advent of the 

Light sport category 

Cgs has only sold 2 slsa models since 2005 and none since 

April 2009 since I purchased the business. I too see the need 

For trainers of the ultralight type. Remember. Two seat ultralights 

Were only allowed by waiver for training purposes only from the start 

The sale and use of two seaters outside the waiver was  one of the reasons for 

the faa to 

implement this grand experiment in the U.S.known as 

Sport pilot. The word from the FAA now is that they will not 

Allow any More lsa models into the market without prior 

Audit by the FAA as to their qualifications and engineering 

Those of us in the lsa market can also expect to be audited 

By the FAA In The near future to make sure we are in compliance 

With all astm standards. 

The confusion over the elsa training issue has had a detremental effect on this 

segment of aviation obviously. 

i want to make it clear what my personal and business position is on this issue 

once and for all i have also said this to the faa 

we as manufacturers cannot force people to buy slsa aircraft. however if no 

trainers are available either slsa or elsa no new customers 

are trained or exposed to our aircraft. i would rather see training in elsa 

aircraft instead of not at all and  that is where we are today 

we can build slsa's all day long but if no one buys them whats the point an 

elsa aircraft built by an individual puts most legal ramifications 

on the owner builder not the factory 

so i support any measures that will get this segment going and training again 



however faa is not happy with the results of their audit on the lsa industry 

which was done over the past two years. So we manufacturers await 

the future with some fear of the unknown. 



in a further effort to get slsa trainers out in the field cgs is putting on a 

sun n fun sale which will be posted on the web site 



i implore the group to choose someone whom is respected among you to contact the 

faa and report on their findings 

i dont expect anyone here to take my word for it and i prefer another voice to 

concur what ive said 



sincerely 

danny dezauche 

president/cgs  aviation 

 

Malcolm Brubaker 

Michigan Sport

Pilot Repair 

LSRM-A, PPC, WS

(989)513-3022  



 

   From: Thom Riddle <riddletr(at)gmail.com>

To: kolb-list(at)matronics.com

Sent: Mon, February 7, 2011 8:49:22 AM

Subject: Re: club planes?



--> Kolb-List message posted by: "Thom Riddle" <riddletr(at)gmail.com (riddletr(at)gmail.com)>



Dana,

The FAA regs allow instruction in any experimental aircraft which is owned by the person receiving the instruction. My FSDO said that partial ownership or indirect ownership (share holder in a corporation that owns the aircraft) qualifies as long as there is an equity position in the aircraft.



--------

Thom Riddle

Buffalo, NY (9G0)

Kolb Slingshot SS-021

Jabiru 2200A #1574

Tennessee Prop 64x32

Don't accept  your dog's admiration as conclusive evidence that you are wonderful.â€ 

â€”Ann Landers





Read this topic online here:



http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=329948#329948

         [quote][b]

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