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mdnanwelch7(at)hotmail.co
Guest

Posted: Wed Feb 09, 2011 7:44 am Post subject: nose hoop

Kolb guys,

  

   In an 'off list' conversation with a fellow Kolber, I asked about his

 thoughts on the MkIII nose hoop.  He has chosen to go with one,

 but I know several Xtra owners have not.

  

   My question is; Is there a big need for a nose hoop?  Are a lot

 of guys standing their planes up on their noses a lot?

  

   As best as I can guess, 99.9% of my MkIII T/O & landings will be

 on asphalt runways.  There aren't very many grass strips around here, 

 at least, not that I'll likely fly in to.

  

   Any thoughts on having a nose hoop?   If I'm gonna add one, the 

 time is now!

  

  

 Mike Welch

 		 	   		    [quote][b]

byoungplumbing(at)gmail.c
Guest

Posted: Wed Feb 09, 2011 7:58 am Post subject: nose hoop

Any thoughts on having a nose hoop?   If I'm gonna add  one, the 

time is now!

 

 

Mike Welch

[quote]

[quote]>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> mike where is your peto static system in relation to where your nose hoop will be located...   would it protect it?   boyd youngmkiii[b]

mdnanwelch7(at)hotmail.co
Guest

Posted: Wed Feb 09, 2011 8:11 am Post subject: nose hoop

 	  Quote: 	
		  >mike where is your peto static system in relation to where your nose hoop will be located...   would it protect it?  >boyd young

	
 Hi Boyd,

  

   The pitot probe is at the bottom, front, just off-center.....in other words,

 exactly where it would get wiped out first.

   I kind of always accepted the fact that if I ever stood it up on it's nose, that the pitot

 probe would be on the list of repairs.

  

   Do you think flying from asphalt runways virtually all the time makes any difference in

 the need for a nose hoop?

  

 Mike W

 

  [quote]

arget=_blank>http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-List

ttp://forums.matronics.com

=_blank>http://www.matronics.com/contribution



[b]

John Hauck

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 4639
Location: Titus, Alabama (hauck's holler)

Posted: Wed Feb 09, 2011 8:24 am Post subject: nose hoop

My question is; Is there a big need for a nose hoop?  Are a lot

of guys standing their planes up on their noses a lot?



  As best as I can guess, 99.9% of my MkIII T/O & landings will be

on asphalt runways.  There aren't very many grass strips around here,

at least, not that I'll likely fly in to.



  Any thoughts on having a nose hoop?   If I'm gonna add one, the

time is now!

Mike Welch





Mike W/Kolbers:



Homer Kolb designed the nose hoop as a training wheel for those that don't 

fly well.  



Homer's factory MKIII did not have a nose hoop on it.  However, I did put it 

on its nose at Sun and Fun one year with a very large, max capacity 

passenger.  It happened when I stopped at the fence to unload my healthy 

passenger, hit the brakes with the stick full aft, tail in a good Lakeland 

wind, and up she went.  No damage because we were stopped.  That was pilot 

error, not MKIII error.  If I had not gotten preoccupied with all that goes 

on when flying passengers at Lakeland, I would not have put the airplane on 

its nose, even with heavy cargo on board.



Just as easy to put the mkIII on its nose on pavement as grass under the 

right conditions.  If you don't fly off grass you are missing the best part 

of flying a Kolb airplane.  Grass strips are what Kolbs were designed for 

and are where the good folks hang out.  



If you have doubts about keeping the tail on the ground, put a training 

wheel on it.



john h

mkIII

Titus, Alabama

_________________
John Hauck
MKIII/912ULS
hauck's holler
Titus, Alabama

John Hauck

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 4639
Location: Titus, Alabama (hauck's holler)

Posted: Wed Feb 09, 2011 8:25 am Post subject: nose hoop

Do you think flying from asphalt runways virtually all the time makes any 

difference in

the need for a nose hoop?



Mike W



Mike W/Kolbers:



Grass or asphalt runways do not put Kolbs on their nose, but pilots do. 

Stay ahead of the aircraft and you will do just fine.



There are no guarantees in aviation except one:



Gravity and Murphy rule!



john h

mkIII

Titus, Alabama

_________________
John Hauck
MKIII/912ULS
hauck's holler
Titus, Alabama

smlplanet(at)msn.com
Guest

Posted: Wed Feb 09, 2011 8:37 am Post subject: nose hoop

Having nosed mine over a couple times it helps when going slow but if at higher speeds I think it does more damage than helps. I am in the process of installing a Deleon skid plate in place of the hoop such as used on gliders. My battery and a 3 gal reserve fuel tank are located in the nose section. I was coming home from a XC when I encountered very strong winds which bowed my windshield in. After pushing it back out a couple times I located a field to land in and when about 5-8 foot above the ground the windshield blow in again and this time splitting and hitting me in the face knocking my glass's and head phones off. Being to late to abort I set it down hard bending the landing gear and nosing it over causing damage to the nose section also. I always carry duct tape, and after the winds let up flew it home but I was VERY lucky!!!   

From: byoungplumbing(at)gmail.com

To: kolb-list(at)matronics.com

Subject: Re: Kolb-List: nose hoop

Date: Wed, 9 Feb 2011 08:55:12 -0700

            Any thoughts on having a nose hoop?   If I'm gonna add  one, the 

time is now!

Mike Welch

[quote]

 	  Quote: 	
		  >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> mike where is your peto static system in relation to where your nose hoop will be located...   would it protect it?   boyd youngmkiii

arget="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-List

http://forums.matronics.com

="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution

[b]

John Hauck

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 4639
Location: Titus, Alabama (hauck's holler)

Posted: Wed Feb 09, 2011 8:55 am Post subject: nose hoop

I was coming home from a XC when I encountered very strong winds which 

bowed my windshield in. After pushing it back out a couple times



Sky Biker/Kolbers:



Curious why your windshield bowed in?



Are you using 1/8" Lexan?



john h

mkIII

Titus, Alabama

_________________
John Hauck
MKIII/912ULS
hauck's holler
Titus, Alabama

pj.ladd(at)btinternet.com
Guest

Posted: Wed Feb 09, 2011 9:01 am Post subject: nose hoop

I asked about his thoughts on the MkIII nose hoop.>>

  

 Hi Mike,

  

 As JH says. Its the pilot, not the plane.  I  don`t have a hoop  on my Xtra  and I  wiped the pitot off a  couple of times when I had her first.

 I was doing  taxying runs prior to my first  flight and after several years in the tricycle Challenger I didn`t  keep  the stick aft. Not sure that a hoop would have helped as I was weaving after a  weathercock and trying to get used to indiviual toe brakes. Something else I  didn`t need in the Challenger. I am sure that the hoop would have been  wiped off by the sideways motion of the nose cone and probably done damage to  the fixings.

  

 Pat

   [quote][b]

smlplanet(at)msn.com
Guest

Posted: Wed Feb 09, 2011 9:05 am Post subject: nose hoop

I was using .092 Lexan



 	  Quote: 	
		   From: jhauck(at)elmore.rr.com

 To: kolb-list(at)matronics.com

 Subject: Re: nose hoop

 Date: Wed, 9 Feb 2011 10:52:53 -0600

 

 --> Kolb-List message posted by: "John Hauck" <jhauck(at)elmore.rr.com>

 

 

  I was coming home from a XC when I encountered very strong winds which 

 bowed my windshield in. After pushing it back out a couple times

 

 

 

 Sky Biker/Kolbers:

 

 Curious why your windshield bowed in?

 

 Are you using 1/8" Lexan?

 

 john h

 mkIII

 Titus, Alabama 

 

 

&gt========================<br=======
	


 	  Quote:

John Hauck

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 4639
Location: Titus, Alabama (hauck's holler)

Posted: Wed Feb 09, 2011 9:16 am Post subject: nose hoop

Kolbers:



I was very fortunate to help fly off the test time on the first MKIII in Feb 

1991, while I was building my MKIII and helping Homer build a lot more of 

them.  During those test flights I was able to determine what I needed to 

change on my MKIII to make me happy.  Notice, I did not say to make my MKIII 

better, but to satisfy me and my style of flying.



First thing my Brother Jim, who was working with Homer at that time, and I 

decided was to move the main gear 8" forward, put some weight on the 

tailwheel, and keep the tail on the ground.  Jim designed new main gear and 

my MKIII has no tendancy to want to nose over.  The reason we made the 

decision to go with the Hauck Main Gear was because Homer put the MKIII on 

its nose when he was carrying a very light passenger at the farm, turned the 

tail into the wind and promptly put the nose on the ground.



We figured we were going to need to move the gear forward from experience 

with the FS.  Using 35.5" long main gear legs helped reduce the nose over 

tendancy of the FS.  Yep, I had an engine failure, put the FS in a pasture, 

one wheel hit a big fire ant bed just before it stopped rolling, I had no 

brakes, and she went right up on its nose.



The more weight you put in the seats of the standard MKIIIc or x, the easier 

it will be to nose it over.



john h - With well over 100 lbs on a tailwheel at the end of a long 

tailboom.

mkIII

Titus, Alabama

_________________
John Hauck
MKIII/912ULS
hauck's holler
Titus, Alabama

Richard Pike

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 1671
Location: Blountville, Tennessee

Posted: Wed Feb 09, 2011 9:19 am Post subject: Re: nose hoop

I started out with a nose hoop and am glad I did. On my first flight with a passenger, managed to nose it up during a full throttle runup with the brakes locked, even with the stick back. The hoop prevented any damage.



John has covered a tailing wind with locked brakes, let me bring up locked brakes and the high thrust line. With the high thrust line, it is very easy to pick the tail up off the ground with any of our Kolbs. In order to save abuse on the tail wheel, boom, and lower vertical stab assembly (since my tail wheel is not full swivel) I blow the tail up off the ground with forward stick, locked left brake, and a shot of power to spin the airplane around to position it in front of the hangar so I can use the pulley and winch to haul it uphill and in. Obviously it is very different doing a tail-up turn when I have a passenger versus solo, and the potential is very high to screw up and stick the nose in the dirt.



With the MKIII gear being where it is, when you have a passenger, locked brakes, and enough power to raise the tail off the ground, there comes a definite "tipping point" and it is probably not very high. Also, in that situation, careful power modulation is probably at least if not more important than what you are doing with the elevators, however I am not planning to experiment, I have enough repair projects going on. Anyway, tail up turns are definitely an acquired skill, not without certain obvious risks. And maybe the next time I go fly, I'll be patching the nose & pitot system - it could easily happen.



But back to the hoop - once I had enough hours in it to get fully acquainted with what the MKIII would and would not do, I took the hoop off and just put the screws back in the holes, and in the 15 years I have flown it since, have not missed it.  But when you are first getting started, as easy an option as it is to put it on or take it off, why not use it initially? Kinda like feeding crackers to a dead man - it isn't going to hurt anything...



Richard Pike

MKIII N420P (420ldPoops)

John Hauck

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 4639
Location: Titus, Alabama (hauck's holler)

Posted: Wed Feb 09, 2011 9:21 am Post subject: nose hoop

I was using .092 Lexan





Skybiker/Kolbers:



.125" is what the plans call for.



Haven't gotten any feedback on windshild problems using .125" (1/8").



Are you flying a MKIII?



john h

mkIII

Titus, Alabama

_________________
John Hauck
MKIII/912ULS
hauck's holler
Titus, Alabama

smlplanet(at)msn.com
Guest

Posted: Wed Feb 09, 2011 9:25 am Post subject: nose hoop

I have and fly both, a CWS 2 Challenger and a MK111 and used the .092 think ness for several years with out any problem. The material broke around the rivet holes which attached it to the nose section which caused bowing in at the bottom and then splitting up words. I have snce made fiberglass pieces that form to the nose section and better secure the windshield plus a gap seal that fits between the center gap and the windshield  which stopped the air from blowing in between the center gap section and the windshield. The air felt good in the summer but in the winter it was cold and I live in Florida. I have gotten older and remember the days when I would fly the ultralights in the winter with skis ..no more!!! The cockpit heater feel great. LOL

From: pj.ladd(at)btinternet.com

To: kolb-list(at)matronics.com

Subject: Re: nose hoop

Date: Wed, 9 Feb 2011 08:57:53 -0800

           I asked about his thoughts on the MkIII nose hoop.>>

 Hi Mike,

 As JH says. Its the pilot, not the plane.  I  don`t have a hoop  on my Xtra  and I  wiped the pitot off a  couple of times when I had her first.

 I was doing  taxying runs prior to my first  flight and after several years in the tricycle Challenger I didn`t  keep  the stick aft. Not sure that a hoop would have helped as I was weaving after a  weathercock and trying to get used to indiviual toe brakes. Something else I  didn`t need in the Challenger. I am sure that the hoop would have been  wiped off by the sideways motion of the nose cone and probably done damage to  the fixings.

 Pat

   [quote]

arget="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-List

http://forums.matronics.com

="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution

[b]

John Hauck

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 4639
Location: Titus, Alabama (hauck's holler)

Posted: Wed Feb 09, 2011 9:41 am Post subject: nose hoop

John has covered a tailing wind with locked brakes,



Richard Pike

Not exactly locked brakes, but using a little brake as I taxied up to the 

fence to drop off my passenger.



I might add, we were on the brink of destruction as soon as my passenger got 

on board.



Homer put most of the weight on the main gear, nearly all of it, to make his 

airplanes docile ground handlers.  They are very easy to taxi compared to 

the SS and the few MKIII's that sport Hauck Main Gear.  Mine is a little 

more difficult to control, but she doesn't try to go up on her nose, never 

has.



john h

mkIII

Titus, Alabama

_________________
John Hauck
MKIII/912ULS
hauck's holler
Titus, Alabama

racerjerry

Joined: 15 Dec 2009
Posts: 202
Location: Deer Park, NY

Posted: Wed Feb 09, 2011 10:09 am Post subject: Re: nose hoop

With the Firestar II, a nose hoop is not an option.  If you are foolish enough (like me) to try and â€œpower outâ€ of some tall grass or snow, you will get a chance to practice fiberglass repair.  At zero forward speed it didnâ€™t do excessive damage, but it twice cost me some nice nose art.  Because of the high thrust line, my Firestar II can nose over quite easily; maybe I could use a training wheel.  The other problem is once up on the nose, it goes â€œover centerâ€ (CG slightly forward of main wheels) and wants to stay there.  It takes some agility to climb out without letting the tail crash to the ground and cause more damage.

_________________
Jerry King

byoungplumbing(at)gmail.c
Guest

Posted: Wed Feb 09, 2011 12:17 pm Post subject: nose hoop

Hi Boyd,

 

  The pitot probe is at the bottom, front, just  off-center.....in other words,

exactly where it would get wiped out  first.

  I kind of always accepted the fact that if I ever stood it  up on it's nose, that the pitot

probe would be on the list of  repairs.

 

  Do you think flying from asphalt runways virtually  all the time makes any difference in

the need for a nose  hoop?

 

Mike W

 

 [quote]

i think flying from asphalt would just about eliminate the chance of a nose over.  and even with the hoop.  the peto may get wiped off anyway. boyd[b]

slyck(at)frontiernet.net
Guest

Posted: Wed Feb 09, 2011 12:17 pm Post subject: nose hoop

For those who are curious about the MkIII being "over center" in a tail up position....



When I did the engine out into the tall alfalfa three years ago it went on its nose for a distance

and then plopped back on the tail.  I was solo (good thing).



It snapped off the tailspring.  I could see from the stress marks at the break that it was going to go eventually anyway.

The benefit was a shorter spring and a new pitot. 

BB

genuinely ugly here in western NY today.

( the weather, not me)

On 9, Feb 2011, at 1:09 PM, racerjerry wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   

 

 With the Firestar II, a nose hoop is not an option.  If you are foolish enough (like me) to try and “power out” of some tall grass or snow, you will get a chance to practice fiberglass repair.  At zero forward speed it didn’t do excessive damage, but it twice cost me some nice nose art.  Because of the high thrust line, my Firestar II can nose over quite easily; maybe I could use a training wheel.  The other problem is once up on the nose, it goes “over center” (CG slightly forward of main wheels) and wants to stay there.  It takes some agility to climb out without letting the tail crash to the ground and cause more damage.

 

 --------

 Jerry King

 

 

 

 

 Read this topic online here:

 

 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=330304#330304

Richard Pike

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 1671
Location: Blountville, Tennessee

Posted: Wed Feb 09, 2011 3:21 pm Post subject: Re: nose hoop

 	  John Hauck wrote: 	
		  John has covered a tailing wind with locked brakes,



Richard Pike



Not exactly locked brakes, but using a little brake as I taxied up to the 

fence to drop off my passenger.



I might add, we were on the brink of destruction as soon as my passenger got on board.



john h

mkIII

Titus, Alabama 	




"Brink of destruction" WooHoo - Best line of the week! Thanks for the LOL! moment. I have taken a few of those sort for a ride, so I know whereof you speak!



Richard Pike

MKIII N420P (420ldPoops)

jbhart(at)onlyinternet.ne
Guest

Posted: Wed Feb 09, 2011 6:25 pm Post subject: nose hoop

Mike,



The FireFly does not have a hoop, but it is very easy to put on it's nose.  

I have had it on it's nose several times.  The first nose over can when 

making my first flight from grass.  This was followed by trying to taxi 

across a wet soft grass field.   My wife got me some red colored Duct Tape, 

and that is what holds the bottom front of the nose cone together.



To keep from repeating the nose over, I chocked the main gear and tied a 

ground loop over the tail boom just a head of the vertical fin.  Then I 

started the engine, climbed in and slowly advanced the throttle to see when 

the tail would lift off the ground.  This gives me the maximum initial 

throttle opening for the take off roll.



Your problem is a little more difficult, in that, you can carry a passenger, 

etc, but if you load up the passenger seat and test with a low fuel load 

should give you a workable rpm number.



The snow and ice and ice and snow continue.



Jack B. Hart FF004

Winchester, IN

mdnanwelch7(at)hotmail.co
Guest

Posted: Wed Feb 09, 2011 6:46 pm Post subject: nose hoop

> The snow and ice and ice and snow continue.

 	  Quote: 	
		   

 Jack B. Hart FF004

 Winchester, IN


	


 Hi Jack,

  

   Thanks to you, and all the other Kolb guys that contributed to my

 question about the need for a nose hoop, especially the guys that 

 emailed me directly, and really offered their experiences and some

 advice.  All of you have been very helpful.   : )

  

   Is it just me, or does this seem like a heckava winter!!!  We got

 about 20" of snow from that blizzard last week, plus another 3" today.

 That strikes me as a lot.....for Missouri!!!

  

   It's darn near impossible to get a decent work-day done on my MkIII.

 I have turned the heatpump on in my shop, but then my electric bill

 skyrockets through the roof!!!

   I'm dreaming of the warmer weather, hopefully it will get here soon.

 They're talking about highs in the mid 50's this weekend.  Yay!!  That

 ought to put a dent in this dopey snow!

  

 C'mon springtime!!!

  

 Mike W

 do not archive

 		 	   		    [quote][b]

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