Matronics Email Lists :: View topic

Matronics Email Lists
Web Forum Interface to the Matronics Email Lists

Get Email Distribution Too! FAQ Search Memberlist Usergroups Register

Profile Log in to check your private messages Log in

Heavy Passengers
Goto page 1, 2 Next

Matronics Email Lists Forum Index -> Kolb-List

View previous topic :: View next topic

Author Message

elleryweld(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Wed Feb 09, 2011 4:37 pm Post subject: Heavy Passengers

speaking of passengers I have a friend that wants a ride in my MK3c and he is 350 lbs im not sure I should even attempt it,  I am 190 lbs what's your thoughts on giving a heavy guy a ride?

   the most I have had with me is 250 lbs  and 20 gallons fuel 

 

 

     Ellery Batchelder Jr.

 

 

 

      	  Quote: 	
		   

 	  Quote: 	
		   I might add, we were on the brink of destruction as soon as my passenger got 

on board. 	

	


 

   [quote][b]

Dana

Joined: 13 Dec 2007
Posts: 1047
Location: Connecticut, USA

Posted: Wed Feb 09, 2011 5:17 pm Post subject: Heavy Passengers

At 07:19 PM 2/9/2011, Ellery Batchelder Jr wrote:

  	  Quote: 	
		  speaking of passengers I have a friend that wants a ride in my MK3c and he is 350 lbs im not sure I should even attempt it,  I am 190 lbs what's your thoughts on giving a heavy guy a ride?

 the most I have had with me is 250 lbs  and 20 gallons fuel 

 	


 It's your plane... what do the weight and balance limits say?



 -Dana

 --

 Psychiatrists say that one of four people are mentally ill.  Check three friends.  If they're OK, you're it.   

    [quote][b]

byoungplumbing(at)gmail.c
Guest

Posted: Wed Feb 09, 2011 5:43 pm Post subject: Heavy Passengers

speaking of passengers I have a friend that wants a ride  in my MK3c and he is 350 lbs im not sure I should even attempt it,  I am  190 lbs what's your thoughts on giving a heavy guy a ride?

 the most I have had with me is  250 lbs  and 20 gallons fuel 

  Ellery Batchelder Jr.

  

 >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

  

 what does your plane  weigh,,

  

 say 600 +you at 190  say 5 gal fuel.   +30   you are up to 820  lb..    if you have 1000  lb gross,,,  minus  820  leaves  180 pound  passenger,   you are up to gross wt..   maybe your  plane weighs less  or you could takeoff with less fuel...   

  

 my .02 worth

  

 boyd young

 mkiii

elleryweld(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Wed Feb 09, 2011 6:00 pm Post subject: Heavy Passengers

I calculated and if I only used 3 gallons fuel  ( A short Flight )  I would still be in the W&B window but I have never flown with that much weight in the MK3C  

 

     Ellery Batchelder Jr.

 

 

 

   --

Richard Pike

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 1671
Location: Blountville, Tennessee

Posted: Wed Feb 09, 2011 7:58 pm Post subject: Re: Heavy Passengers

Run a W & B and you will find out. Assuming that your W & B says it's ok - bear in mind that with full flaps and a forward CG, the MKIII runs out of elevator authority in a hurry in that situation, so NO FLAPS.



Even if the numbers come out right, I would add a strip of tape to the gap between the elevator and stab, and land w/o flaps, and keep the airspeed to 60 or 65 on final. With a LONG runway...



Or just say no. (How would a 350 pound person even fit? That is going to foul your elevator push rod. Not to mention getting them back out of the bucket after the flight is over. Unless they are unusually agile for that weight, you are going to do some serious pulling and tugging)



Richard Pike

MKIII N420P (420ldPoops)

John Hauck

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 4639
Location: Titus, Alabama (hauck's holler)

Posted: Wed Feb 09, 2011 8:14 pm Post subject: Heavy Passengers

speaking of passengers I have a friend that wants a ride in my MK3c and he 

is 350 lbs

Ellery Batchelder Jr.



 Ellery B/Kolbers:



Sometimes, especially at Oshkosh and S&F, flying for Kolb Aircraft, we 

pushed the limits in order to satisfy customers and bosses.  The largest guy 

I ever got off the ground in the factory MKIII was a lopper.  That means he 

lopped over the aileron torque tube between the pilot and passenger.  It 

takes a big guy or gal to be a lopper, probably over 300 lbs.  On take off 

to the north out of the UL strip at Oshkosh, it was up hill with a 90 deg 

brisk cross wind.  I had everything working against me to include my 

decision to fly this guy.  Finally broke ground about midfield.  Soon as we 

got airborne the MKIII began drifting right towards the fence and spectator 

bleachers.  I had full left stick and it was still trying to roll and drift 

right.  A quick prayer and some luck, it slowly started to roll left and 

away from the fence before I hit it.  I was able to climb out between and 

over the trees at the north end.  Flew the traffic pattern at full throttle. 

Shot my approach at 75 mph.  Did not chop power until the mains touched 

down.



The only thing that flight proved was I had made a very stupid, dangerous 

decision that could have turned deadly.  Sometimes it is hard to say no. 

After that incident, I never had a problem turning down a passenger when I 

felt the least bit unsure of a safe flight.  Since then I have aborted 

flights on take off at S&F with extra heavy passengers.  Didn't hurt a thing 

and the passengers were very happy that I made the decision when I sat them 

down and explained my actions.



There's a lot of difference in handling and performance between solo and 

flying a normal category passenger.  Takes a lot more up elevator trim. 

With no up elevator trim there are heavy nose down stick forces.  This 

situation plays hell with low time MKIII pilots, and is not much fun for 

those with lots of experience.



Don't make the same poor decision I did.  You may not be as lucky.



350 lbs!!!  I wouldn't even talk about flying with him.



john h

mkIII

Titus, Alabama

_________________
John Hauck
MKIII/912ULS
hauck's holler
Titus, Alabama

John Hauck

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 4639
Location: Titus, Alabama (hauck's holler)

Posted: Wed Feb 09, 2011 8:27 pm Post subject: Heavy Passengers

I calculated and if I only used 3 gallons fuel  ( A short Flight )  I would 

still be in the W&B window but I have never flown with that much weight in 

the MK3C

Ellery Batchelder Jr.

Ellery B/Kolbers:



My max gross is 1,200 lbs.  When I make a serious, long cross country, my 

take off weight is approximately 1,200 lbs.  However, my fuel and most cargo 

is behind the bulkhead and I don't have 350 lbs in the front seat beside me.



I have never been able to make the W&B on a MKIII work out for me on paper. 

Through experiementation and experience I know how much weight and where it 

will fly safely with a very wide margin.  If I am going to push the fore or 

aft limit, I will push the aft limit.  I can't prove that on paper, but I 

can in the air.  Remember, that is the way I do it.  I do not recommend that 

anyone else fly their Kolb that way.



john h

mkIII

Titus, Alabama

_________________
John Hauck
MKIII/912ULS
hauck's holler
Titus, Alabama

pj.ladd(at)btinternet.com
Guest

Posted: Thu Feb 10, 2011 3:19 am Post subject: Heavy Passengers

If I am going to push the fore or aft limit, I will push the aft limit. >>



Thats interesting John. Whats the reasoning? I would have thought that tail 

heavy  the most dangerous. When the speed comes back ,for landing, and you 

are low a heavy tail is asking for a stall. If you are nose heavy at least 

when the nose goes down your speed goes up and that gives you more elevator 

control. Hopefully.



Your all up weight is way above ours. Not to say that the Kolb wont handle 

it but here if you are overweight then you are no longer a `microlight`. 

That means that your pilots license is not valid and therefore your 

insurance is invalid  as well.. You cannot fly legally here without third 

party insurance so you are in trouble with the law as well as the CAA.



Pat

John Hauck

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 4639
Location: Titus, Alabama (hauck's holler)

Posted: Thu Feb 10, 2011 7:04 am Post subject: Heavy Passengers

Thats interesting John. Whats the reasoning? I would have thought that tail

heavy  the most dangerous. When the speed comes back ,for landing, and you

are low a heavy tail is asking for a stall. If you are nose heavy at least

when the nose goes down your speed goes up and that gives you more elevator

control. Hopefully.



Your all up weight is way above ours. Not to say that the Kolb wont handle

it but here if you are overweight then you are no longer a `microlight`.

That means that your pilots license is not valid and therefore your

insurance is invalid  as well.. You cannot fly legally here without third

party insurance so you are in trouble with the law as well as the CAA.



Pat





Patrick L/Gang:



My MKIII is placarded for 1,200 lbs maximum gross weight based on 

modifications the manufacturer (me) made during construction to satisfy me, 

the FAA, and my insurance company.



I have difficulty making the Kolb paper weight and balance work in actual 

flight.



I flew my MKIII with a 12 lb Maule 8" Tundra Tailwheel for several years. 

This blows the paper weight and balance away.  My airplane is not supposed 

to fly on paper, yet it flew quite well.  I stalled it in every attitude I 

could think of and the nose always dropped.



I don't like the idea of running out of elevator before the wing stalls.



The Kolb's high pusher configuration compounds the forward cg with a heavy 

passenger, especially on take off and in the event of a go around.



I have never had the courage to stall a MKIII with a very heavy passenger, 

so I really do not know how the aircraft would respond.  I don't have to 

worry about that anymore because I won't be flying large passengers in my 

aircraft, and I don't fly demonstration flights for Kolb anymore.



I have stalled my MKIII with full flaps and a passenger on board.  To my 

surprise, the elevator stalled when I attempted to recover.  That'll get 

your attention.



Have no statistics to back me up, but there seem to be many fatal Kolb 

crashes while carrying passengers.  I don't know how valid that is.



I have always flown with a recovery parachute.  



john h

Titus, Alabama

_________________
John Hauck
MKIII/912ULS
hauck's holler
Titus, Alabama

Frankd

Joined: 28 Mar 2008
Posts: 64

Posted: Thu Feb 10, 2011 8:37 am Post subject: Re: Heavy Passengers & Insurance

Hi Guys, 



responding to Pats comment about weight and insurance,  do aircraft in the US require insurance to legally fly?? 



I know you have to have car insurance but I can't find anything that says you have to have aircraft insurance. 



Also, has anyone had luck getting life insurance when you fly an experimental??  (My wife REALLY would like this!) I can get life but only if I fly certified aircraft and no ACRO.. 



Looking for answers. 

FrankD



MkIII Xtra,

Now legally airworthy.

Soon to fly.  no more excuses.

Dennis.Kirby(at)kirtland.
Guest

Posted: Thu Feb 10, 2011 8:41 am Post subject: Heavy Passengers

<< speaking of passengers I have a friend that wants a ride in my MK3c and he  is 350 lbs im not sure I should even attempt it, … the most I have had with me is 250 lbs and 20 gallons fuel Ellery Batchelder Jr. >>

 

Ellery –

 

When I calculated the Weight & Balance for my Mark-3, it came out that the MOST heavy passenger I could “safely” carry was 250 lbs.  This was based on my weight of 190 lbs, and minimal fuel (less than a quarter tank).  In this configuration, the CG was at its forward-most allowable point, as specified by Homer.  It’s not a gross weight limitation – it’s an out-of-CG issue.

 

I suspect that you are correct – taking a 350 lb passenger in your Mark-3 might be a tad risky.  Might even put your Kolb at the brink of destruction.

 

Dennis Kirby

Mark-III N93DK, “Magic Bike”

New Mexico

 

 

 [quote][b]

racerjerry

Joined: 15 Dec 2009
Posts: 202
Location: Deer Park, NY

Posted: Thu Feb 10, 2011 9:11 am Post subject: Re: Heavy Passengers

You do not have to say NO.  Do him and yourself a great favor and rent a 172 for an hour and take him up.  Or give him a present and BUY him a sightseeing flight at your local airport and go with him.  Good advice about No flaps and increasing landing speed; but with such a large percentage change in gross weight and CG, even if successful, you will be operating in very unfamiliar and dangerous territory. Flight characteristics will change greatly, at which point you will become a test pilot with a large frightened passenger who is most likely restricting stick movement.

_________________
Jerry King

pj.ladd(at)btinternet.com
Guest

Posted: Thu Feb 10, 2011 9:28 am Post subject: Heavy Passengers

there seem to be many fatal Kolb crashes while carrying passengers. >>



Do you think that by some extraordinary chance that might be telling us that 

there is something in weight and balance after all?



Cheers



Pat (off to Tenerife and some sunshine at sparrows tomorrow. See you in a 

week)

neilsenrm(at)gmail.com
Guest

Posted: Thu Feb 10, 2011 10:09 am Post subject: Heavy Passengers

I have been flying quite a bit near or slightly over gross weight lately. Yes the plane does fly differently the most concerning is the bad combination of high power and flaps. I use flaps on landing but I tell myself and my passenger that if I have to add power for a go around that all flaps must be retracted. 

   

 With that said my personal feeling is that Kolb accidents are mostly caused by passengers panicking on approach to landing. I have had a number of people get excited and later comment that I didn't warn them strongly enough. The normal Kolb approach is a bit unsettling to everyone and even more so to private pilots. The best advice I can give is to make it clear what the approach will look like and to warn you passenger to never never touch the controls without permission. Also be ready to use your elbow as much as necessary to enforce that rule.   

 

 Rick Neilsen

 Redrive VW Powered MKIIIC



 On Thu, Feb 10, 2011 at 12:25 PM, Pat Ladd <pj.ladd(at)btinternet.com (pj.ladd(at)btinternet.com)> wrote:

 [quote] --> Kolb-List message posted by: "Pat Ladd" <pj.ladd(at)btinternet.com (pj.ladd(at)btinternet.com)>

 there seem to be many fatal Kolb crashes while carrying passengers. >>

Do you think that by some extraordinary chance that might be telling us that there is something in weight and balance after all?

 

Cheers



Pat (off to Tenerife and some sunshine at sparrows tomorrow. See you in a week) 

  

 bscription,

 www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-List" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-List

 ronics.com/" target="_blank">http://forums.matronics.com

 Matt Dralle, List Admin.

 =====



[b]

Richard Pike

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 1671
Location: Blountville, Tennessee

Posted: Thu Feb 10, 2011 10:53 am Post subject: Re: Heavy Passengers

 	  John Hauck wrote: 	
		  

<snip>

I have stalled my MKIII with full flaps and a passenger on board.  To my 

surprise, the elevator stalled when I attempted to recover.  That'll get 

your attention.

john h

Titus, Alabama 	




You nailed that one.

Several years ago I gap sealed my elevator to the horizontal stab in an effort to eliminate that particular problem. At the same time, added VG's to the underside of the lower forward horizontal stab. Should have done the mods one at a time to see which was the most effective. Not sure which of those 2 things helped the most, but together it has made a huge improvement in elevator authority with flaps and a passenger. (massive forward CG)



Richard Pike

MKIII N420P (420ldPoops)

Last edited by Richard Pike on Thu Feb 10, 2011 10:55 am; edited 2 times in total

Dana

Joined: 13 Dec 2007
Posts: 1047
Location: Connecticut, USA

Posted: Thu Feb 10, 2011 10:54 am Post subject: Heavy Passengers

At 11:37 AM 2/10/2011, Frankd wrote:

  	  Quote: 	
		  --> Kolb-List message posted by: "Frankd" <frankd(at)foundrynet.com>



 responding to Pats comment about weight and insurance,  do aircraft in the US require insurance to legally fly?? 



 I know you have to have car insurance but I can't find anything that says you have to have aircraft insurance. 	


 There is no legal requirements for insurance, but many airports require insurance for aircraft based there.



 -Dana

 --

 I only drink to make other people more interesting.

    [quote][b]

lcottrell

Joined: 29 May 2006
Posts: 1494
Location: Jordan Valley, Or

Posted: Thu Feb 10, 2011 11:11 am Post subject: Heavy Passengers

"With that said my personal feeling is that Kolb accidents are mostly  caused by passengers panicking on approach to landing. I have had a number of  people get excited and later comment that I didn't warn them strongly  enough. The normal Kolb approach is a bit unsettling to everyone and even more  so to private pilots. "

  

 I bought a Mark III when I was taking my P.Pilots training. I talked my  young instructor into going around with me to sign off on it so that I could fly  it with a Student lic. Every thing was fine and when I lined up for short final  at 1000 feet above the ground, I put in full flaps when I was almost over the  numbers, brought it back to a bit of a mush and landed on the numbers with no  incident other than having to pull my instructor out of the wing gap seal. He  did sign me off, but would not fly with me any more. Puss!

  

 Pat attempted to link heavy passengers and crashes with a weight and  balance issue. Much too simple an answer, most likely it would be due to not  taking into account the different flight requirements with a heavy passenger in  the front.

  

 Larry



 Note: If you forward this email, please delete the  forwarding history, which includes my email address.

   [quote][b]

_________________
do not archive

slyck(at)frontiernet.net
Guest

Posted: Thu Feb 10, 2011 11:58 am Post subject: Heavy Passengers

That sounds interesting.  -anybody else have stories about passengers invading the flight controls?Personally I have never experienced anything like that and I have given a lot of free rides.  I did have one guy get so

distraught at being too far away from mother earth that I immediately turned downwind and landed.

Thankfully he didn't grab anything but the pipes in the windshield.

I think full flaps with a passenger in a MkIII is not necessary and possibly hazardous.

Now, getting on in years, I think I will discourage would be riders.

BB



On 10, Feb 2011, at 1:02 PM, Rick Neilsen wrote:

[quote]I have been flying quite a bit near or slightly over gross weight lately. Yes the plane does fly differently the most concerning is the bad combination of high power and flaps. I use flaps on landing but I tell myself and my passenger that if I have to add power for a go around that all flaps must be retracted. 

   

 With that said my personal feeling is that Kolb accidents are mostly caused by passengers panicking on approach to landing. I have had a number of people get excited and later comment that I didn't warn them strongly enough. The normal Kolb approach is a bit unsettling to everyone and even more so to private pilots. The best advice I can give is to make it clear what the approach will look like and to warn you passenger to never never touch the controls without permission. Also be ready to use your elbow as much as necessary to enforce that rule.   

 

 Rick Neilsen

 Redrive VW Powered MKIIIC



 On Thu, Feb 10, 2011 at 12:25 PM, Pat Ladd <pj.ladd(at)btinternet.com (pj.ladd(at)btinternet.com)> wrote:

  	  Quote: 	
		   --> Kolb-List message posted by: "Pat Ladd" <pj.ladd(at)btinternet.com (pj.ladd(at)btinternet.com)>

 there seem to be many fatal Kolb crashes while carrying passengers. >>

Do you think that by some extraordinary chance that might be telling us that there is something in weight and balance after all?

 

Cheers



Pat (off to Tenerife and some sunshine at sparrows tomorrow. See you in a week) 

  

 bscription,

 www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-List" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-List

 ronics.com/" target="_blank">http://forums.matronics.com

 Matt Dralle, List Admin.

 =====









href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-List

href="http://forums.matronics.com/">http://forums.matronics.com

href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/contribution



	
[b]

John Hauck

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 4639
Location: Titus, Alabama (hauck's holler)

Posted: Thu Feb 10, 2011 12:05 pm Post subject: Heavy Passengers

You nailed that one.

Several years ago I gap sealed my elevator to the horizontal stab in an 

effort to eliminate that particular problem. At the same time, added VG's to 

the lower forward horizontal stab. Should have done them one at a time to 

see which was the most effective. Not sure which of those 2 things helped 

the most, but together it has made a huge improvement in elevator authority 

with flaps and a passenger. (massive forward CG)



Richard Pike



Richard P/Kolbers:



 	  Quote: 	
		   I have stalled my MKIII with full flaps and a passenger on board.  To my

 surprise, the elevator stalled when I attempted to recover.  That'll get

 your attention.

 john h


	




Maybe I should correct the above and further explain my maneuver with full 

flaps that caused the elevator to stall.  I was not performing a full flap 

stall, but a dive with full flaps, idle power, and an abrupt pull out when 

we reached 85 mph.



Was down at Sun and Fun demonstrating my MKIII to a reporter for an aviation 

magazine.  We were having a good time wringing out most of the neat little 

things a MKIII is capable of doing safely, when I got the idea to try 

something I had never done before.  That was to pull in full flaps, idle 

power, push the nose over and dive to 85 mph.  At 85 mph pull out of the 

dive abruptly.  When I pulled the stick back abruptly the MKIII kept heading 

earthward with the elevator fully stalled.  Surprise, surprise!



First and only time I have had the elevator stall on my MKIII.  I can not 

think of a scenario I could get myself into that would result in a replay of 

that maneuver.



I normally use full flaps for every landing, unless it is really turbulent 

and/or a severe cross wind, and have no issues with elevator authority.



Nope, not ready for VGs under my tail.  



john h

mkIII

Titus, Alabama

_________________
John Hauck
MKIII/912ULS
hauck's holler
Titus, Alabama

elleryweld(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Thu Feb 10, 2011 12:05 pm Post subject: Heavy Passengers

I have calculated this again it has been a while and I agree with you a Fat man was not meant to fly in a small airplane, however if i fill my 20 gallon fuel tank it would help the CG issue but then send the weight over the Gross limit so I will tell him if he wants to fly to leave 100 lbs home or buy a ticket on a Delta Flight 

    

   Ellery Batchelder Jr.

 

 

   --

Display posts from previous:

	Matronics Email Lists Forum Index -> Kolb-List	All times are GMT - 8 Hours Goto page 1, 2 Next
Page 1 of 2

Jump to:

You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
You cannot attach files in this forum
You can download files in this forum