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registering an experimental aircraft

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mdnanwelch7(at)hotmail.co
Guest

Posted: Sun Feb 13, 2011 7:36 am Post subject: registering an experimental aircraft

Kolb guys,

  

   I am nearing the final stages of building my MkIII, or at least I can see light

 at the end of the tunnel.  If I were to 'guess' at this point when I think I may be 

 finished, I'd say around May.  (one things for sure, I can get more done when the 

 temos warm up!!  Supposed to be upper 50s today...woo hoo!!)

  

   Back to my point.   I have just gone to the EAA "OSHKOSH 365" for members, 

 and read their directions for registering an experimental aircraft.

  

   First question;  Has anyone bought their "$12.99 forms/instructions kit", and found 

 it not worth the money......or is it a pretty good deal?   

   The reason I ask is because they do list all the forms, etc, online,  and give a brief 

 synopsis of the steps involved.  They even provide links to all the referenced forms 

 so a guy could print them.       Any thoughts on their kit?

  

   Since I have never gone through this process, I have very little idea of what

 to expect.   I have plenty and sufficient; photos, receipts, logs, parts brochures, etc.

 I think I have this part covered fairly well.  Of course, I will have the W&B and

 Aircraft Limitations already filled out.

   Does anyone have a sample of their "OPERATOR LIMITATIONS" handbook they

 are proud of, and wouldn't mind sharing a copy of??

  

   From your experience, what are the types of things a DAR is going to look for?

 Will he be mostly concerned with documentation, or will he be focused on the

 airplane itself?  Or both??

   Do you have any recommendations, so I can save myself the added expense of 

 a second trip for him?

  

   Like I said, I'm beginning the initial stages of registration.  All advice and pointers are 

 greatly appreciated.

  

 Mike Welch

 MkIII

 		 	   		    [quote][b]

John Hauck

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 4639
Location: Titus, Alabama (hauck's holler)

Posted: Sun Feb 13, 2011 8:46 am Post subject: registering an experimental aircraft

Like I said, I'm beginning the initial stages of registration.  All advice 

and pointers are

greatly appreciated.



Mike Welch

Call your nearest FSDO.  Get them to send you a packet for registration and 

inspection of your homebuilt.



john h

mkIII

Titus, Alabama

_________________
John Hauck
MKIII/912ULS
hauck's holler
Titus, Alabama

fducker(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Sun Feb 13, 2011 8:50 am Post subject: registering an experimental aircraft

Hi Mike/Gang.

 

 I just got my Airworthyness Cert last week. 

 

 I did all my registration  paperwork using the KOLB instructions and sending all that off to the  FAA before I got the EAA package. 

 That part is straightforward and you just need the correct documents and mail it all off. Don't forget to get correct notarization. 

 

 The EAA package is worth it , IMHO, because they give you the stickers you need. and its all very clear. I only got one "EXPERIMENTAL" sticker but wanted two,  so got some more from Aircraft Spruce. They even send you a fireproof plate to attach to the tail after you get it engraved. 

 

 All the rest to label the cockpit was in the package. 

 

 I got in touch with the Local EAA chapter and got a volunteer to come and do an inspection of my plane,  boy was I surprised at all the stuff he "Suggested" I change.. mostly making sure bolts and nuts were put on correctly and had two treads showing on locknuts. This cost me lunch..Good deal.

 I would highly recommend this step. 

 

 This REALLY helped.   Then I called the FSDO and they said use a DAR. I called the DAR and he quoted $500 to come do the airworthyness check,  but he would also do a thorough inspection.,.  (But Expensive!!)

 

 I got back in touch with the FSDO after talking to my local flight school and getting a contact they deal with,  and got a schedule for an inspection within a week... Great. 

 

 They came and took a look at the aircraft, asked a few questions and then we sat down and went thru the paperwork for the Airworthyness..  and that was it...   Cost = Taxes $0.  = Cool.

 

 The contents of the EAA package were complete and the FSDO folks liked what they saw. I'm sure it would work for a DAR too.

 

 Good luck,

 

 frankD

 M3X, N1014S.

 

 

 

 

 

 

    

  

     

  

    

     

  

     

  

    --

frank.goodnight(at)att.ne
Guest

Posted: Sun Feb 13, 2011 8:51 am Post subject: registering an experimental aircraft

The $ 12.99 was, for me money well spent.  My DAR was mostly interested in paperwork.

 For what it's worth

 Frank



 

   From: Mike Welch <mdnanwelch7(at)hotmail.com>

To: kolb-list(at)matronics.com

Sent: Sun, February 13, 2011 9:25:14 AM

Subject: registering an experimental aircraft



  Kolb guys,

 

  I am nearing the final stages of building my MkIII, or at least I can see light

at the end of the tunnel.  If I were to 'guess' at this point when I think I may be 

finished, I'd say around May.  (one things for sure, I can get more done when the 

temos warm up!!  Supposed to be upper 50s today...woo hoo!!)

 

  Back to my point.   I have just gone to the EAA "OSHKOSH 365" for members, 

and read their directions for registering an experimental aircraft.

 

  First question;  Has anyone bought their "$12.99 forms/instructions kit", and found 

it not worth the money......or is it a pretty good deal?   

  The reason I ask is because they do list all the forms, etc, online,  and give a brief 

synopsis of the steps involved.  They even provide links to all the referenced  forms 

so a guy could print them.       Any thoughts on their kit?

 

  Since I have never gone through this process, I have very little idea of what

to expect.   I have plenty and sufficient; photos, receipts, logs, parts brochures, etc.

I think I have this part covered fairly well.  Of course, I will have the W&B and

Aircraft Limitations already filled out.

  Does anyone have a sample of their "OPERATOR LIMITATIONS" handbook they

are proud of, and wouldn't mind sharing a copy of??

 

  >From your experience, what are the types of things a DAR is going to look for?

Will he be mostly concerned with documentation, or will he be focused on the

airplane itself?  Or both??

  Do you have any recommendations, so I can save myself the added expense of 

a second trip for him?

 

  Like I said, I'm beginning the initial stages of registration.  All advice and pointers are 

greatly appreciated.

 

Mike Welch

MkIII

[quote][b][b]

Frankd

Joined: 28 Mar 2008
Posts: 64

Posted: Sun Feb 13, 2011 8:52 am Post subject: Re: registering an experimental aircraft

Hi Mike/Gang.



I just got my Airworthyness Cert last week.



I did all my registration paperwork using the KOLB instructions and sending all that off to the FAA before I got the EAA package.

That part is straightforward and you just need the correct documents and mail it all off. Don't forget to get correct notarization.



The EAA package is worth it , IMHO, because they give you the stickers you need. and its all very clear. I only got one "EXPERIMENTAL" sticker but wanted two,  so got some more from Aircraft Spruce. They even send you a fireproof plate to attach to the tail after you get it engraved.



All the rest to label the cockpit was in the package.



I got in touch with the Local EAA chapter and got a volunteer to come and do an inspection of my plane,  boy was I surprised at all the stuff he "Suggested" I change.. mostly making sure bolts and nuts were put on correctly and had two treads showing on locknuts. This cost me lunch..Good deal.

I would highly recommend this step.



This REALLY helped.   Then I called the FSDO and they said use a DAR. I called the DAR and he quoted $500 to come do the airworthyness check,  but he would also do a thorough inspection.,.  (But Expensive!!)



I got back in touch with the FSDO after talking to my local flight school and getting a contact they deal with,  and got a schedule for an inspection within a week... Great.



They came and took a look at the aircraft, asked a few questions and then we sat down and went thru the paperwork for the Airworthyness..  and that was it...   Cost = Taxes $0.  = Cool.



The contents of the EAA package were complete and the FSDO folks liked what they saw. I'm sure it would work for a DAR too.



Good luck,



frankD

M3X, N1014S.

Mike Welch

Joined: 13 Feb 2011
Posts: 272

Posted: Sun Feb 13, 2011 12:01 pm Post subject: registering an experimental aircraft

Frank, 

  

   Thank you for that very informative, and up-to-date response!!  I'll print

 it out and make sure I have all the bases covered you suggested.  Excellent detail

 of what I'm about to go through.  Thanks!

  

 Rick,

  

   Yeah, re; the repairman's certificate.  That's a biggie for me.  I saw the 

 form and it is one of my "favorites".  Thanks for the reminder!!

  

 John H,

  

   I did contact my FSDO a couple of years ago, and had then send me some

 of the necessary registration forms, but it's been so long, I can't remember

 exactly what the guy sent.  (I'll bet it didn't include the rep'r certificate form).

 I wanted to know if spending the money on the EAA kit was worth it. (but it looks 

 like I have this part covered thanks to Mike S)

  

   I think rounding up all the right forms is one of the easier parts of the process.

 Like I said, the EAA membership can download all the forms from their online

 tutorial.  If I can do that, I will, otherwise I will get ahold of my area FSDO,

 like you suggested.  Thanks!!!

  

 Mike Sharp,

  

   Mike Sharp had purchased the EAA registration kit, and has sent me a copy

 of the booklet.  All I need now are the actual forms. Thanks, Mike!!!  The only thing 

 I don't get is the 'experimental' stickers, or the engraveable plate.  No problem on 

 those, I know they are obtainable elsewhere.

  

 All,

  

   I appreciate everyone's help.  Thanks a bunch!!  

  

   I have one more question regarding DAR's and FSDO inspectors.   Do I have to 

 find a DAR AND also a FSDO inspector?  Can just the FSDO guy do the job??

 There's not likely going to be even a DAR near me.  I'll probably have to run the plane

 up to K.C. or St Louis., or does the FSDO guy come to me if I ask him to?

   

 Mike Welch

 MkIII installing the ELT

  

 		 	   		    [quote][b]

ces308

Joined: 03 Nov 2008
Posts: 317
Location: houghton lake ,mi

Posted: Sun Feb 13, 2011 12:28 pm Post subject: Re: registering an experimental aircraft

Mike...



check with FSDO on your repairman's cert too...Here in Michigan, you had to do it on line and they gave you a number for one of the FSDO guys to look over then  I had to bring my build book,and all paperwork for them to go over,then we both sat at the computer and filled out the rest of the forms...Whew !!   an hour and a half later I had my temporary cert. It's not like it used to be ,so make sure you check ! 



Good luck!



chris ambrose

M3X/Jab

N327CS

byoungplumbing(at)gmail.c
Guest

Posted: Sun Feb 13, 2011 12:55 pm Post subject: registering an experimental aircraft

Back to my point.   I have just gone to the EAA  "OSHKOSH 365" for members, 

and read their directions for registering an  experimental aircraft.

 

  First question;  Has anyone  bought their "$12.99 forms/instructions kit", and found 

it not worth the  money......or is it a pretty good deal?

  

 Mike   

  

 

 	  Quote: 	
		  >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

  
	


 I called the fsdo and they sent all the papers for  free!!!

  

 the faa inspector also came for free...  he  wanted to see the log,,,,   I told him I did not write down what I did  every time I went into the garage...  but showed him a photo log..   which he accepted.  then he went over the plane with a coarse tooth  comb.  he made a few recommendations,  which I did, called him on the  phone and told him I was complete with his list,   then he sent the  paperwork without an additional inspection.

  

 boyd young

  

 mkiii

  

 do not archive

   [quote][b]

John Hauck

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 4639
Location: Titus, Alabama (hauck's holler)

Posted: Sun Feb 13, 2011 1:36 pm Post subject: registering an experimental aircraft

I did contact my FSDO a couple of years ago, and had then send me some

of the necessary registration forms, but it's been so long, I can't remember

exactly what the guy sent.  (I'll bet it didn't include the rep'r 

certificate form).

I wanted to know if spending the money on the EAA kit was worth it. (but it 

looks

like I have this part covered thanks to Mike S)





Mike W/Kolbers:



The Birmingham FSDO will send you a packet, as I mentioned in my previous. 

This packet will consist of all necessary instructions and forms to prepare 

for your upcoming aircraft inspection and air worthiness certificate.



I can not vouch for other FSDO's, but I would think they would also offer a 

similar packet for homebuilt/experiemental aircraft.  May have to ask them. 

Never know when you might be talking to a newbie that does not know about 

the packet.



It worked for me in 1991, bet it will still work.



john h

mkIII

Titus, Alabama

_________________
John Hauck
MKIII/912ULS
hauck's holler
Titus, Alabama

Mike Welch

Joined: 13 Feb 2011
Posts: 272

Posted: Sun Feb 13, 2011 3:03 pm Post subject: registering an experimental aircraft

> The Birmingham FSDO will send you a packet, as I mentioned in my previous. 

 	  Quote: 	
		   This packet will consist of all necessary instructions and forms to prepare 

 for your upcoming aircraft inspection and air worthiness certificate.

 john h


	


  

 Hi John,

  

   Yep, that's what I'm gonna do, first thing tomorrow morning.  I need to do this

 to get the forms, and maybe find out how my local FSDO handles experimental

 registrations.  While I have them on the phone, I can find out about an inspector, 

 repairmen's certificate like Chris & Rick mentioned, ...lots of things.  

  

   I hope things go as smoothly as what Boyd went through.  I do want someone to 

 go over my plane with a fine tooth comb, but I don't want someone who thinks he 

 hasn't done his job unless he finds a boatload of things to re-do.

   I don't even mind re-doing things, providing changing them actually improves 

 something.

  

 Thanks, Mike W

  

 Do not archive

 		 	   		    [quote][b]

Frankd

Joined: 28 Mar 2008
Posts: 64

Posted: Sun Feb 13, 2011 3:23 pm Post subject: Re: registering an experimental aircraft

Hi Mike, 



Regarding my local FSDO, San Jose, Ca.  they used to be open to walk-ins,  now the door is locked and you have to schedule a visit by phone.  



The reply I first got when I called was " We don't have the manpower to do air worthyness inspections, go see a DAR!"    OK. 

It took me awhile to find a cooperative person and they came to where the plane was hangered, 42 miles from the office..  No charge. 



The DAR would have come to the plane too but would have charged $100 for travel. 



I guess that manpower scheduling is an issue and that cutbacks are part of the FSDO around here. I hope you have an easier time. 



I asked about the repairman cert and was told to fly off the 40Hrs first and then apply,  so I don't believe you have to hurry about that, but its a good thing to have.  



One document I got from the FSDO years ago (When the doors were open) is the Advisory Circular "Amateur-built aircraft and ultralight flight testing handbook" AC No:- 90-89A. 



Its full of advise on preparing for test flight, and its my bible right now. 



Have fun

FrankD

elleryweld(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Sun Feb 13, 2011 7:36 pm Post subject: registering an experimental aircraft

Mike the kit is well worth the price but dont expect to get the FAA to be there in a week I have waited

   as long as a month for them to arrive on some of the airplanes I have built

 

 

     Ellery Batchelder Jr.

 

 

 

   --

Thom Riddle

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1597
Location: Buffalo, NY, USA (9G0)

Posted: Mon Feb 14, 2011 4:24 am Post subject: Re: registering an experimental aircraft

..."Does anyone have a sample of their "OPERATOR LIMITATIONS" handbook ..."



Mike,



Don't confuse the personal operating handbook you make for your own use in the airplane with the "Operating Limitations" which is the Official FAA Document that must be carried in your aircraft at all times. This is the O part of the AROW documents that must be in the aircraft.



Make sure that the official FAA Operating Limitations are the latest version which should be no more than 3-4 pages long. The one that the builder of my Slingshot received is 10-11 pages long and had the old "can't fly over congested areas" garbage, along with some other stupid things in it. I've been planning to get that replaced with the new version but have not gotten around to it yet. This spring I will call my FSDO and get that done so my flights which  over congested areas won't be illegal.



do not archive

_________________
Thom Riddle
Buffalo, NY (9G0)

Don't worry about old age... it doesn't last very long.
- Anonymous

rickofudall

Joined: 19 Sep 2009
Posts: 1392
Location: Udall, KS, USA

Posted: Mon Feb 14, 2011 6:54 am Post subject: registering an experimental aircraft

Thom, Mike, et al, Here are the documents from which your operating limitations will be written. The first is for the current document, the second is for the document that will become effective on 4-16-2011. E-LSA can be found on pages 143 to 147 in the first document, 8130-2F, and E-AB on pages 164 to 165-4. In the second document, 8130-2G, E-LSA can be found on pages 4-44 to 4-49. E-AB op limitations are found on 4-64 to 4-69.

http://rgl.faa.gov/Regulatory_and_Guidance_Library/rgOrders.nsf/0/77A132602A4E1F9A862576B3005D253D?OpenDocument&Highlight=8130.2f

 



[/url][url=http://rgl.faa.gov/Regulatory_and_Guidance_Library/rgOrders.nsf/0/1774FE9A01420B56862577CE005128DC?OpenDocument&Highlight=8130.2f]http://rgl.faa.gov/Regulatory_and_Guidance_Library/rgOrders.nsf/0/1774FE9A01420B56862577CE005128DC?OpenDocument&Highlight=8130.2f

 



[/url]Rick Girard



On Mon, Feb 14, 2011 at 6:24 AM, Thom Riddle <riddletr(at)gmail.com (riddletr(at)gmail.com)> wrote:

  	  Quote: 	
		  --> Kolb-List message posted by: "Thom Riddle" <riddletr(at)gmail.com (riddletr(at)gmail.com)>

  

 .."Does anyone have a sample of their "OPERATOR LIMITATIONS" handbook ..."

 

 Mike,

 

 Don't confuse the personal operating handbook you make for your own use in the airplane with the "Operating Limitations" which is the Official FAA Document that must be carried in your aircraft at all times. This is the O part of the AROW documents that must be in the aircraft.

  

 Make sure that the official FAA Operating Limitations are the latest version which should be no more than 3-4 pages long. The one that the builder of my Slingshot received is 10-11 pages long and had the old "can't fly over congested areas" garbage, along with some other stupid things in it. I've been planning to get that replaced with the new version but have not gotten around to it yet. This spring I will call my FSDO and get that done so my flights which  over congested areas won't be illegal.

  

 do not archive

 

 --------

 Thom Riddle

 Buffalo, NY (9G0)

 Kolb Slingshot SS-021

 Jabiru 2200A #1574

 Tennessee Prop 64x32

 

 

 Don't accept your dog's admiration as conclusive evidence that you are wonderful.” 

 —Ann Landers

 

 

 

 

 Read this topic online here:

 

 [url=http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=331007#331007]http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=331007#331007

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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-- 

Zulu Delta

Mk IIIC

Thanks, Homer GBYM

It isn't necessary to have relatives in Kansas City in order to be unhappy.

   - Groucho Marx



 



  [quote][b]

_________________
The smallest miracle right in front of you is enough to make you happy....

Frankd

Joined: 28 Mar 2008
Posts: 64

Posted: Mon Feb 14, 2011 8:01 am Post subject: Re: registering an experimental aircraft

Hi Mike/Gang,



to answer Mike's question about the test flight, I have found a local guy with a MKiii that will take me up to get the "Sight Picture" of the Kolb, especially at landing.  

I am also doing quite a few hours landing practice in a Champ, 85hp, to make sure I get my feet and stick skills up to par. 

I am writing a test plan for each phase of the flight and will have buddies on the ground help me when I do high speed taxi, 1st flight, 2nd flight, etc. using this test plan. That booklet helps.

I will also wait for no wind conditions.  I've spent 10 years building this thing and am not going to rush now. 



I have asked around and some folks who were GA pilots just got in and went fly!  And lived to tell the tale.   I believe its "When YOU are GOOD & ready" is the trick.  I also am getting lots of advise from local EAA members. 

The operating limitations the FAA lady gave me is a two page document to be kept in the aircraft.  BTW, she told me there is no FAA definition of congested areas so I guess its up for interpretation.. (Loop hole!)

Fly safe.

 FrankD, M3X.

John Hauck

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 4639
Location: Titus, Alabama (hauck's holler)

Posted: Mon Feb 14, 2011 8:52 am Post subject: registering an experimental aircraft

I also am getting lots of advise from local EAA members.

  FrankD, M3X.

Frank D/Kolbers:



If I may guess, I would say most new Kolb pilots make the mistake of not 

managing airspeed.  Low altitude stalls get a lot of good Kolb people.



Until one gets used to flying the Kolb, any model, an approach, and 

landing/touch down speed of 50 to 60 mph will keep you above the stall.  50 

to 60 mph is a good flying speed.



I like the instruction Homer Kolb made in my 1984 Ultrastar Builders and 

Flyers Manual.  Take off, climb to about 1,000 feet above the ground, stall 

the airplane to get an indicated stall speed, then keep the airspeed above 

the stall.  It worked for me then and it still works for me.



john h

Titus, Alabama

_________________
John Hauck
MKIII/912ULS
hauck's holler
Titus, Alabama

neilsenrm(at)gmail.com
Guest

Posted: Mon Feb 14, 2011 9:48 am Post subject: registering an experimental aircraft

Frank

  

 Getting landing hours in a champ is good but your Kolb will slow down a whole lot quicker than a champ when you flair for touch down. Review this in your intro flight in the Kolb. On your first landing carry lots of power to touch down. Power will make the Kolb land like a champ. Then "gradually" reduce the approach power a bit with each landing. Get used to starting your landing flair at around one-two foot. The normal GA landing flair at twenty-fifty foot will bite you in a Kolb.

   

 Rick Neilsen

 Redrive VW Powered MKIIIC

 On Mon, Feb 14, 2011 at 11:01 AM, Frankd <frankd(at)foundrynet.com (frankd(at)foundrynet.com)> wrote:

 [quote]--> Kolb-List message posted by: "Frankd" <frankd(at)foundrynet.com (frankd(at)foundrynet.com)>

 

Hi Mike/Gang,



to answer Mike's question about the test flight, I have found a local guy with a MKiii that will take me up to get the "Sight Picture" of the Kolb, especially at landing.

I am also doing quite a few hours landing practice in a Champ, 85hp, to make sure I get my feet and stick skills up to par.

 I am writing a test plan for each phase of the flight and will have buddies on the ground help me when I do high speed taxi, 1st flight, 2nd flight, etc. using this test plan. That booklet helps.

I will also wait for no wind conditions.  I've spent 10 years building this thing and am not going to rush now.

 

I have asked around and some folks who were GA pilots just got in and went fly!  And lived to tell the tale.   I believe its "When YOU are GOOD & ready" is the trick.  I also am getting lots of advise from local EAA members.

 The operating limitations the FAA lady gave me is a two page document to be kept in the aircraft.  BTW, she told me there is no FAA definition of congested areas so I guess its up for interpretation.. (Loop hole!)

Fly safe.

  FrankD, M3X.





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Jason Omelchuck

Joined: 07 May 2009
Posts: 120
Location: Portland Oregon

Posted: Fri Feb 18, 2011 10:46 pm Post subject: Re: registering an experimental aircraft

Hello Tom,



When you get around to contacting the FAA please update us on your success in getting the operating limitations changed.  Especially if they actually remove the wording about flying over congested areas.



Jason

 	  Thom Riddle wrote: 	
		  ..."Does anyone have a sample of their "OPERATOR LIMITATIONS" handbook ..."



Mike,



Don't confuse the personal operating handbook you make for your own use in the airplane with the "Operating Limitations" which is the Official FAA Document that must be carried in your aircraft at all times. This is the O part of the AROW documents that must be in the aircraft.



Make sure that the official FAA Operating Limitations are the latest version which should be no more than 3-4 pages long. The one that the builder of my Slingshot received is 10-11 pages long and had the old "can't fly over congested areas" garbage, along with some other stupid things in it. I've been planning to get that replaced with the new version but have not gotten around to it yet. This spring I will call my FSDO and get that done so my flights which  over congested areas won't be illegal.



do not archive

Thom Riddle

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1597
Location: Buffalo, NY, USA (9G0)

Posted: Sat Feb 19, 2011 5:20 am Post subject: Re: registering an experimental aircraft

Jason,



Roger willco. My plan is to borrow a copy of more reasonable Operating Limitations from a friend's airplane and offer that as a model for emulation.



Wish I had kept a copy from my previous airplane.

_________________
Thom Riddle
Buffalo, NY (9G0)

Don't worry about old age... it doesn't last very long.
- Anonymous

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