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brubakermal(at)yahoo.com
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 Posted: Tue Feb 15, 2011 6:08 am Post subject: club plane ELSAs |
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There has been a lot of discussion, mostly positive, and it has all been interesting, much of it very helpful.
From the Sport Pilot Instructors forum Phil Dietro, Arlynn McMahon, and a few others have discussed the options they have utilized. Thom Riddle has posted some inciteful questions and possible solutions.
This is what we are looking for : other "outside the box" forward thinking groups or individuals who can help us generate a solution to the growing problem of SPCFI shortages and the costs involved in being able to operate.
Arlynn has offered to share info regarding how an SPCFI might go about "affordably" operating without the backing of a "regular" flight school. This is not a sarcastic statement.
Phil mentioned the addition of PPC & WS training - are there existing LODAs in force to provide for that training in ELSAs?
Having come up through the ranks of Ultralight to Sport Pilot, I also know many new UL flyers who are desperate for training they can't get.
Our focus is how to go about establishing an LLC and fractional ownership plan centered around ELSA craft & EABs to use for the additional purpose of training SP & UL student pilots; and making this information available to all SPCFIs.
I have priced even the USED (aka- well flown) SLSAs, there aren't many available, and they are still in the $70,000 to $100,000 range.
Not exactly within the "affordable" range of even a school with more than 1 instructor.
There has been response from the NAFI (National Association of Flight Instructors) that has been on a positive note. They are very interested in working on this solution as well.
As a group, Sport Pilot may simply need to do the same thing that other minorities have done in the past, Stand up, be counted, be recognized, and not take NO for an answer. It will take time. We all realize this. But with more of us working toward the same goal, we will obtain it sooner rather than later.
Malcolm Brubaker
Michigan Sport
Pilot Repair
LSRM-A, PPC, WS
(989)513-3022
Looking for earth-friendly autos?
Browse Top Cars by "Green Rating" at Yahoo! Autos' Green Center. [quote][b]
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Guy Buchanan
Joined: 16 Jul 2006
Posts: 1204
Location: Ramona, CA
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| Posted: Tue Feb 15, 2011 8:11 am Post subject: club plane ELSAs |
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On 2/15/2011 6:06 AM, Malcolm Brubaker wrote: | Quote: | | This is what we are looking for : other "outside the box" forward thinking groups or individuals who can help us generate a solution to the growing problem of SPCFI shortages and the costs involved in being able to operate. |
I don't know how outside the box this is, but the following comes to mind:
- In San Diego most flying is done within clubs, where investors and/or members own the planes and lease them back. Rates run $91 for a Sting Sport, not really what you'd call affordable, but way cheaper than renting a 172. ($135)
- What the world needs is the $20-$50k LSA they were promised. If I remember correctly the Rotax 582 is ASTM certified just like the 912. I also seem to remember that it's about $12k cheaper. An airframe designed specifically for the 582, and specifically for dual training should be able to be made very inexpensively. Think a lightened Coyote S-6ES with dacron sails. Having flown behind the 582 for years I think it a wonderful engine perfectly suited for training. You handle the EGT issue with training and an EIS with a BIG RED WARNING LIGHT. The idea is not to buy one of these things, or even a few, but to get investors interested and try to build 100. Similar things have been done in the past in yachting.
- I've often wondered if the yacht club or sailing club model couldn't be applied to aircraft. Most of us get involved in flying for the social part of it, yet the only place to socialize is within someone's hangar or at a wretched restaurant somewhere. Why not build a hangar/club facility where people would gather / hang / eat / drink and socialize. You could tie it to a flying club with rental aircraft or just as a stand-alone within the airport. Either way it would be the "place to be", a wonderful enticement for new flyers, and a way to reduce that 80% flight training drop-out rate AOPA keeps talking about.
Guy Buchanan
Ramona, CA
Kitfox IV-1200 / 592-C / Warp 3cs / 500 hrs. and grounded
[quote][b]
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_________________
Guy Buchanan
Deceased K-IV 1200
A glider pilot too. |
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Jimz
Joined: 09 Dec 2007
Posts: 31
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| Posted: Tue Feb 15, 2011 12:59 pm Post subject: club plane ELSAs |
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When I went to Light Sport I sold my Cessna & bought a 7AC Champ. It is a legal LS plane plus it is an antique. They are there for $25,000 on up. We have several in this area that are club owned. I will never live long enough to see a new LS that I consider affordable. My 2 cents worth.
Jim
Lake Elmo MN
Series 5 under construction
0-200 powered
[quote] -----
On 2/15/2011 6:06 AM, Malcolm Brubaker wrote: | Quote: | | This is what we are looking for : other "outside the box" forward thinking groups or individuals who can help us generate a solution to the growing problem of SPCFI shortages and the costs involved in being able to operate. |
I don't know how outside the box this is, but the following comes to mind:
- In San Diego most flying is done within clubs, where investors and/or members own the planes and lease them back. Rates run $91 for a Sting Sport, not really what you'd call affordable, but way cheaper than renting a 172. ($135)
- What the world needs is the $20-$50k LSA they were promised. If I remember correctly the Rotax 582 is ASTM certified just like the 912. I also seem to remember that it's about $12k cheaper. An airframe designed specifically for the 582, and specifically for dual training should be able to be made very inexpensively. Think a lightened Coyote S-6ES with dacron sails. Having flown behind the 582 for years I think it a wonderful engine perfectly suited for training. You handle the EGT issue with training and an EIS with a BIG RED WARNING LIGHT. The idea is not to buy one of these things, or even a few, but to get investors interested and try to build 100. Similar things have been done in the past in yachting.
- I've often wondered if the yacht club or sailing club model couldn't be applied to aircraft. Most of us get involved in flying for the social part of it, yet the only place to socialize is within someone's hangar or at a wretched restaurant somewhere. Why not build a hangar/club facility where people would gather / hang / eat / drink and socialize. You could tie it to a flying club with rental aircraft or just as a stand-alone within the airport. Either way it would be the "place to be", a wonderful enticement for new flyers, and a way to reduce that 80% flight training drop-out rate AOPA keeps talking about.
Guy Buchanan
Ramona, CA
Kitfox IV-1200 / 592-C / Warp 3cs / 500 hrs. and grounded
| Quote: |
href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kitfox-List">http://www.matronhref="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c
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[b]
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Guy Buchanan
Joined: 16 Jul 2006
Posts: 1204
Location: Ramona, CA
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| Posted: Tue Feb 15, 2011 4:53 pm Post subject: club plane ELSAs |
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On 2/15/2011 10:16 AM, Zimmermans wrote: | Quote: | | When I went to Light Sport I sold my Cessna & bought a 7AC Champ. It is a legal LS plane plus it is an antique. They are there for $25,000 on up. We have several in this area that are club owned. I will never live long enough to see a new LS that I consider affordable. My 2 cents worth. |
Good idea Jim. SportAviation had a recent article on a bunch of cheap certificated LSAs: Chiefs, Champs, Luscombs, Ercoupes, Cessna 120/140, PA 15/17, Taylorcraft BC-12. All these were claimed to be below $40k and many were below $30k. Don't know if they'd be insurable for flight instruction, though.
Guy Buchanan Normal Guy Buchanan 8 20 2010-09-24T17:53:00Z 2011-01-02T22:52:00Z 1 25 149 1 1 173 14.00 <![endif]--> 59 Clean Clean false false false false EN-US X-NONE X-NONE MicrosoftInternetExplorer4 <![endif]--> <![endif]--> /* Style Definitions */ table.MsoNormalTable {mso-style-name:"Table Normal"; mso-tstyle-rowband-size:0; mso-tstyle-colband-size:0; mso-style-noshow:yes; mso-style-priority:99; mso-style-parent:""; mso-padding-alt:0in 5.4pt 0in 5.4pt; mso-para-margin:0in; mso-para-margin-bottom:.0001pt; mso-pagination:widow-orphan; font-size:10.0pt; font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"; mso-ascii-font-family:Calibri; mso-ascii-theme-font:minor-latin; mso-hansi-font-family:Calibri; mso-hansi-theme-font:minor-latin; mso-bidi-font-family:"Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-theme-font:minor-bidi;} <![endif]--> <![endif]--> <![endif]-->
Guy Buchanan
Scoutmaster – Troop 680
760.809.6145
scoutmaster(at)troop680.org (scoutmaster(at)troop680.org)
www.troop680.org
[quote][b]
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_________________
Guy Buchanan
Deceased K-IV 1200
A glider pilot too. |
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brubakermal(at)yahoo.com
Guest
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| Posted: Tue Feb 15, 2011 6:07 pm Post subject: club plane ELSAs |
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Jim can i please talk with one of thos club plane owners? we need a templit so we can make it easer for people to start clubs and teach people to fly? mal call any time
Malcolm Brubaker
Michigan Sport
Pilot Repair
LSRM-A, PPC, WS
(989)513-3022
From: Zimmermans <jezim(at)pro-ns.net>
To: kitfox-list(at)matronics.com
Sent: Tue, February 15, 2011 1:16:34 PM
Subject: Re: club plane ELSAs
When I went to Light Sport I sold my Cessna & bought a 7AC Champ. It is a legal LS plane plus it is an antique. They are there for $25,000 on up. We have several in this area that are club owned. I will never live long enough to see a new LS that I consider affordable. My 2 cents worth.
Jim
Lake Elmo MN
Series 5 under construction
0-200 powered
[quote] -----
On 2/15/2011 6:06 AM, Malcolm Brubaker wrote: | Quote: | | This is what we are looking for : other "outside the box" forward thinking groups or individuals who can help us generate a solution to the growing problem of SPCFI shortages and the costs involved in being able to operate. |
I don't know how outside the box this is, but the following comes to mind:
- In San Diego most flying is done within clubs, where investors and/or members own the planes and lease them back. Rates run $91 for a Sting Sport, not really what you'd call affordable, but way cheaper than renting a 172. ($135)
- What the world needs is the $20-$50k LSA they were promised. If I remember correctly the Rotax 582 is ASTM certified just like the 912. I also seem to remember that it's about $12k cheaper. An airframe designed specifically for the 582, and specifically for dual training should be able to be made very inexpensively. Think a lightened Coyote S-6ES with dacron sails. Having flown behind the 582 for years I think it a wonderful engine perfectly suited for training. You handle the EGT issue with training and an EIS with a BIG RED WARNING LIGHT. The idea is not to buy one of these things, or even a few, but to get investors interested and try to build 100. Similar things have been done in the past in yachting.
- I've often wondered if the yacht club or sailing club model couldn't be applied to aircraft. Most of us get involved in flying for the social part of it, yet the only place to socialize is within someone's hangar or at a wretched restaurant somewhere. Why not build a hangar/club facility where people would gather / hang / eat / drink and socialize. You could tie it to a flying club with rental aircraft or just as a stand-alone within the airport. Either way it would be the "place to be", a wonderful enticement for new flyers, and a way to reduce that 80% flight training drop-out rate AOPA keeps talking about.
Guy Buchanan
Ramona, CA
Kitfox IV-1200 / 592-C / Warp 3cs / 500 hrs. and grounded
| Quote: |
href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kitfox-List">http://www.matronhref="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c
|
http://www.mat="http://forums.matronics.com/" rel=nofollow target=_blank>http://for=========
[b]
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Jimz
Joined: 09 Dec 2007
Posts: 31
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| Posted: Tue Feb 15, 2011 6:56 pm Post subject: club plane ELSAs |
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I don't personally know them. They are a group of people on our field that were already pilots and bought a plane to share. They don't give instruction or rent it out.
[quote] ---
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WurlyBird
Joined: 16 May 2008
Posts: 207
Location: North Pole, Alaska
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| Posted: Wed Feb 16, 2011 5:06 am Post subject: Re: club plane ELSAs |
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I actually just wrote up a little paper on the subject of starting a flying club to disseminate to guys I work with. It is actually quite remarkable how many people are in professional aviation that have no idea about aviation. A lot of guys I work with want to start working on their PPL when we get home but few feel it is affordable. Bear in mind I have never been a part of a flying club, so this was based on personal experience in GA and Glider communities and some assumptions. The model I drew up revolved around 5 people, an LLC, and a Piper Cub, my understanding is these are getting eaten up by the SP world you just have to operate it appropriately. With a $10,000 buy in and guesstimated $100/mo dues it would be feasible for guys to "rent" the plane for very little. If you have an instructor in the group or even just a fellow who would like to teach to the group at a reasonable rate it is possible to get a PPL for about $2000 with no prior experience (based on minimums). After that you still have the Cub at your disposal which can be operated for what will seem like pennies compared to renting. I wouldn't mind anybody who wants to look at it giving me feedback. There are guys reading it that are starting to think so I may need to help them set it up when the time comes and if I am drastically missing some point I would like to know. Let me know if you want me to send it to you.
Referencing the communal aspect of flying. GA NEEDS IT BAD! I learned to fly gliders so flying with a pack of guys all day, helping put away all the planes and then sitting around telling lies afterward was all part of it. That aspect makes flying so much more enjoyable and I plan on hanging fliers at the nearby FBOs when I get home to try and put together a group of pilots that want to fly together. Just like a motorcycle club, but slower and with a better view.
| | - The Matronics Kitfox-List Email Forum - | | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kitfox-List |
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_________________
James
Kitfox 3 / 582 / 70" IVO 2 blade GA
50 hrs on the 582 swapping for HKS 700E and Avid Cowl. |
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7suds(at)Chartermi.net
Guest
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| Posted: Wed Feb 16, 2011 2:27 pm Post subject: club plane ELSAs |
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I received my tail wheel instruction / endorsement in a Taylorcraft, fun plane, was not licensed as a LSA though.
Lloyd
From: owner-kitfox-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Guy Buchanan
Sent: Tuesday, February 15, 2011 6:50 PM
To: kitfox-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: Re: club plane ELSAs
On 2/15/2011 10:16 AM, Zimmermans wrote:
When I went to Light Sport I sold my Cessna & bought a 7AC Champ. It is a legal LS plane plus it is an antique. They are there for $25,000 on up. We have several in this area that are club owned. I will never live long enough to see a new LS that I consider affordable. My 2 cents worth.
Good idea Jim. SportAviation had a recent article on a bunch of cheap certificated LSAs: Chiefs, Champs, Luscombs, Ercoupes, Cessna 120/140, PA 15/17, Taylorcraft BC-12. All these were claimed to be below $40k and many were below $30k. Don't know if they'd be insurable for flight instruction, though.
Guy Buchanan
Scoutmaster – Troop 680
760.809.6145
scoutmaster(at)troop680.org (scoutmaster(at)troop680.org)
www.troop680.org
[quote][b]
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brubakermal(at)yahoo.com
Guest
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| Posted: Wed Feb 16, 2011 3:06 pm Post subject: club plane ELSAs |
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If the grose was less than 1320# it is a lsa mal
Malcolm Brubaker
Michigan Sport
Pilot Repair
LSRM-A, PPC, WS
(989)513-3022
From: Lloyd & Lorrie Cudnohufsky <7suds(at)Chartermi.net>
To: kitfox-list(at)matronics.com
Sent: Wed, February 16, 2011 5:16:29 PM
Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: club plane ELSAs
I received my tail wheel instruction / endorsement in a Taylorcraft, fun plane, was not licensed as a LSA though.
Lloyd
From: owner-kitfox-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Guy Buchanan
Sent: Tuesday, February 15, 2011 6:50 PM
To: kitfox-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: Re: club plane ELSAs
On 2/15/2011 10:16 AM, Zimmermans wrote:
When I went to Light Sport I sold my Cessna & bought a 7AC Champ. It is a legal LS plane plus it is an antique. They are there for $25,000 on up. We have several in this area that are club owned. I will never live long enough to see a new LS that I consider affordable. My 2 cents worth.
Good idea Jim. SportAviation had a recent article on a bunch of cheap certificated LSAs: Chiefs, Champs, Luscombs, Ercoupes, Cessna 120/140, PA 15/17, Taylorcraft BC-12. All these were claimed to be below $40k and many were below $30k. Don't know if they'd be insurable for flight instruction, though.
Guy Buchanan
Scoutmaster – Troop 680
760.809.6145
scoutmaster(at)troop680.org (scoutmaster(at)troop680.org)
www.troop680.org
[quote][b]
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helili(at)chahtatushka.ne
Guest
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| Posted: Fri Feb 18, 2011 9:36 am Post subject: club plane ELSAs |
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Mal,
Well, yes and no.Â
The Taylorcraft is licensed under CAR 4, dating back to 1939.
http://rgl.faa.gov/Regulatory_and_Guidance_Library%5CrgMakeModel.nsf/0/B3F7EB59DB30E3DD8625747A006B33C0?OpenDocument
A Type Certificate Data Sheet exists for the Taylorcraft.
http://rgl.faa.gov/Regulatory_and_Guidance_Library/rgMakeModel.nsf/0/f11a5c945ba842338625747a006b2f74/$FILE/A-696.pdf
The Taylorcraft has a Standard Airworthiness Certificate, not a Light Sport Category Certificate:
http://www.faa.gov/aircraft/air_cert/airworthiness_certification/sp_awcert/light_sport/
It is not licensed in the Light Sport Category, however it may be operated by Sport Pilot Certificate Holder under Sport Pilot Rules because it meets all the rules of Light Sport Aircraft:
http://www.faa.gov/aircraft/gen_av/light_sport/media/ExistingModels.pdf
Maintenance, modifications and inspections of the Taylorcraft must be accomplished under Part 43 rules. By virtue of the Standard Airworthiness Certificate, maintenance requires a certificated maintenance technician.
John Hart
KF IV
Wilburton, OK
From: owner-kitfox-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Malcolm Brubaker
Sent: Wednesday, February 16, 2011 4:52 PM
To: kitfox-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: Re: club plane ELSAs
If the grose was less than 1320# it is a lsa mal
Malcolm Brubaker
Michigan Sport
Pilot Repair
LSRM-A, PPC, WS
(989)513-3022
From: Lloyd & Lorrie Cudnohufsky <7suds(at)Chartermi.net>
To: kitfox-list(at)matronics.com
Sent: Wed, February 16, 2011 5:16:29 PM
Subject: RE: club plane ELSAs
I received my tail wheel instruction / endorsement in a Taylorcraft, fun plane, was not licensed as a LSA though.
Lloyd
From: owner-kitfox-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Guy Buchanan
Sent: Tuesday, February 15, 2011 6:50 PM
To: kitfox-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: Re: club plane ELSAs
On 2/15/2011 10:16 AM, Zimmermans wrote:
When I went to Light Sport I sold my Cessna & bought a 7AC Champ. It is a legal LS plane plus it is an antique. They are there for $25,000 on up. We have several in this area that are club owned. I will never live long enough to see a new LS that I consider affordable. My 2 cents worth.
Good idea Jim. SportAviation had a recent article on a bunch of cheap certificated LSAs: Chiefs, Champs, Luscombs, Ercoupes, Cessna 120/140, PA 15/17, Taylorcraft BC-12. All these were claimed to be below $40k and many were below $30k. Don't know if they'd be insurable for flight instruction, though.
Guy Buchanan
Scoutmaster – Troop 680
760.809.6145
scoutmaster(at)troop680.org (scoutmaster(at)troop680.org)
www.troop680.org
[quote][b]
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brubakermal(at)yahoo.com
Guest
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| Posted: Sat Feb 19, 2011 7:41 am Post subject: club plane ELSAs |
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There has been a lot of progress on this topic since we started this thread. We have posted on 6 different user groups over the past two weeks. Our goal is to produce a usuable format or template and make it avaliable to everyone. This is to show certified instructors how to set up a "club" ELSA or EAB plane and use it to train in while staying within the existing regs.
NAFI (National Association of Flight Instructors) has picked up on this and not only have they asked Mark and I if we want to join their group to work on a plan, they have offered their help for looking into ways to achieve this goal. Ultralight training is also very high on their agenda. NAFI has offered to spearhead an effort to approach the FAA about changing some regs to help the ultralight/light sport movement. This is a much larger task then publishing a hand book.
We have had a lot of positive response. Several people have shown an interest in helping and have demonstrated a knowledge of the regs AND how to use them to this end. We look forward to working with anyone that can add a positive note. We have received several downloads on club plane agreements, magazine articles, statements published by the AOPA, EAA and insurance companies. Terms like equitable position, partnership and the legal defination of that word, and profit are just a few that need to be carefully navigated in our format. Sorting through this info and reproducing it into a user friendly format to achieve our goal is becoming a time consuming task. However, our goal remains the same. Please feel free to contact us off list if you feel you have any expertise or resources in these areas.
Malcolm Brubaker
Michigan Sport
Pilot Repair
LSRM-A, PPC, WS
(989)513-3022
From: WurlyBird <james.t.trizzino(at)us.army.mil>
To: kitfox-list(at)matronics.com
Sent: Wed, February 16, 2011 8:06:30 AM
Subject: Re: club plane ELSAs
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "WurlyBird" <james.t.trizzino(at)us.army.mil (james.t.trizzino(at)us.army.mil)>
I actually just wrote up a little paper on the subject of starting a flying club to disseminate to guys I work with. It is actually quite remarkable how many people are in professional aviation that have no idea about aviation. A lot of guys I work with want to start working on their PPL when we get home but few feel it is affordable. Bear in mind I have never been a part of a flying club, so this was based on personal experience in GA and Glider communities and some assumptions. The model I drew up revolved around 5 people, an LLC, and a Piper Cub, my understanding is these are getting eaten up by the SP world you just have to operate it appropriately. With a $10,000 buy in and guesstimated $100/mo dues it would be feasible for guys to "rent" the plane for very little. If you have an instructor in the group or even just a fellow who would like to teach to the group at a reasonable rate it is possible to get a PPL for about $2000 with no prior experience (based on mini!
mums). After that you still have the Cub at your disposal which can be operated for what will seem like pennies compared to renting. I wouldn't mind anybody who wants to look at it giving me feedback. There are guys reading it that are starting to think so I may need to help them set it up when the time comes and if I am drastically missing some point I would like to know. Let me know if you want me to send it to you.
Referencing the communal aspect of flying. GA NEEDS IT BAD! I learned to fly gliders so flying with a pack of guys all day, helping put away all the planes and then sitting around telling lies afterward was all part of it. That aspect makes flying so much more enjoyable and I plan on hanging fliers at the nearby FBOs when I get home to try and put together a group of pilots that want to fly together. Just like a motorcycle club, but slower and with a better view.
--------
James
Kitfox 3 / 582 / 70" IVO 2 blade GA
50 hrs on the Fox in between deployments,
now she lies in wait
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=331203#331203[b]
[quote][b]
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