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Aileron play

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frans(at)privatepilots.nl
Guest

Posted: Mon Feb 21, 2011 5:42 am Post subject: Aileron play

When we built the PH-DIY the aileron system was tight. But after 91

hours of flying and repeated (de)rigging, everything settled in, and

some play developed at the quick connect system.

There is no play within the wing itself, nor in the airplane, but it

sounds like it really is at the mating surface of the two quick connect

surfaces and the surface shows some wear.

Does this sound normal?

With the wing root fairing in place it is a bit awkward to make

measurements and get a visual confirmation.

My plan is to add another tufnol sheet on the bellcrank surface to see

if that solves the problem. (There is no play on the bearings).

Other ideas are welcome of course.



Frans

grahamsingleton(at)btinte
Guest

Posted: Mon Feb 21, 2011 6:16 am Post subject: Aileron play

Frans

you could put small blobs of modeling clay (plasticine?) on the mating surfaces rig the aircraft then derig and measure the depth of the blobs. use clingfilm or release wax on the matching surface

Graham

From: Frans Veldman <frans(at)privatepilots.nl>

To: europa-list(at)matronics.com

Sent: Monday, 21 February, 2011 13:23:57

Subject: Aileron play

--> Europa-List message posted  by: Frans Veldman <frans(at)privatepilots.nl (frans(at)privatepilots.nl)>

When we built the PH-DIY the aileron system was tight. But after 91

hours of flying and repeated (de)rigging, everything settled in, and

some play developed at the quick connect system.

There is no play within the wing itself, nor in the airplane, but it

sounds like it really is at the mating surface of the two quick connect

surfaces and the surface shows some wear.

Does this sound normal?

With the wing root fairing in place it is a bit awkward to make

measurements and get a visual confirmation.

My plan is to add another tufnol sheet on the bellcrank surface to see

if that solves the problem. (There is no play on the bearings).

Other ideas; http://www.mat=====================

 [quote][b]

kevann(at)gotsky.com
Guest

Posted: Mon Feb 21, 2011 6:26 am Post subject: Aileron play

Hi Frans,

You can measure the space by derigging and putting a bit of modelling clay 

on one surface, then put it together and the clay will form the thickness 

you want to add in tufnol to the mating surface.



Kevin

---

ptag.dev(at)tiscali.co.uk
Guest

Posted: Mon Feb 21, 2011 6:53 am Post subject: Aileron play

Hi!Frans.

I get this problem. The very thin tufnol packing on the quick connect

surfaces unfortunately won't take a double layer. I stripped off the

original material mixed up some very thick redux and left both mating

surfaces quite "proud" of finished thickness(using new tufnol) then fitted

and pinned the wings into place allowing the   redux to cure, ten parted it

all to give perfectly flush mating surfaces and tidied up the finished

product. You may still have a slight unwanted gap but I use a layer of self

stick tape which will need replacing every 6 months.

You must however wrap some "cling film" round each mating surface before

pushing the wings in place to ensure any excess redux which squeezes out

doesn't lock both surfaces together preventing the wings being parted. Once

cured and parted it is possible to clean and trim it all up. 

Regards

Bob Harrison G-PTAG 



--

frans(at)privatepilots.nl
Guest

Posted: Mon Feb 21, 2011 8:10 am Post subject: Aileron play

On 02/21/2011 03:44 PM, Bob Harrison wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   I get this problem. The very thin tufnol packing on the quick connect

 surfaces unfortunately won't take a double layer.


	


Ah, good to know.



 	  Quote: 	
		   I stripped off the

 original material mixed up some very thick redux and left both mating

 surfaces quite "proud" of finished thickness(using new tufnol) then fitted

 and pinned the wings into place allowing the   redux to cure,


	


Ok, but during rigging it is I think quite impossible to line up the

stick and the aileron so they mate evenly and don't push away the redux

before the rigging is completed. I usually see the stick moving quite a

bit during rigging. How do you solve this problem? Or is it not a

problem at all?



Thanks,

Frans

trevpond(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Mon Feb 21, 2011 8:53 am Post subject: Aileron play

Nev suggested foil tape over the tufnol   - it sticks well and works a treat.

Regards

Trev Pond

G-LINN

Sent from my iPhone 

On 21 Feb 2011, at 16:06, Frans Veldman <frans(at)privatepilots.nl> wrote:

 	  Quote: 	

 On 02/21/2011 03:44 PM, Bob Harrison wrote:

> I get this problem. The very thin tufnol packing on the quick connect

> surfaces unfortunately won't take a double layer.

 Ah, good to know.

> I stripped off the

> original material mixed up some very thick redux and left both mating

> surfaces quite "proud" of finished thickness(using new tufnol) then fitted

> and pinned the wings into place allowing the   redux to cure,

 Ok, but during rigging it is I think quite impossible to line up the

 stick and the aileron so they mate evenly and don't push away the redux

 before the rigging is completed. I usually see the stick moving quite a

 bit during rigging. How do you solve this problem? Or is it not a

 problem at all?

 Thanks,

 Frans

kingsnjan(at)westnet.com.
Guest

Posted: Tue Feb 22, 2011 5:10 am Post subject: Aileron play

Hello Frans,

  

 > Other ideas are welcome of  course.

  

 At the risk of disagreeing with others and saying  something stupid because it is now late at night and I'm tired, I would suggest  that your problem is that the two bolts on which the quick connect bellcranks  pivot are not exactly aligned.  For the bellcranks to operate correctly,  they must pivot on a common axis so that they both describe exactly the same  arcs when operating.  Tests I did proved that only a very slight  misalignment has quite an effect on the gap between the two  bellcranks.

  

 If the bolts are not exactly aligned, as the  bellcranks swing in different arcs, they either become tight or  loose.  When they become tight, the bolts, what is supporting the bolts or  both, flex to absorb the load induced by the two bellcranks fighting each  other.

  

 If the bolts ARE correctly aligned, they act like a  single bolt with a gap in the middle so when fitting the tufnol strips, there is  no need to do so on the aircraft.  This job can be done in a vice with a  long bolt and the bellcranks both mounted to it in their correct  orientation.  This makes the job very simple and removal of any excess  Redux is a breeze.

  

 The tricky part is getting the two bolts correctly  aligned in the first place and it is a long while since I did it so I hope I can  remember correctly.  I enlarged the hole in the spar to allow the spar  mounted bolt to be a little sloppy.  I thiink I then somewhat rebated the  hole on the bellcrank side of the spar making it similar to what was done to the  spar on the head end of the bolt.  This rebate was to allow permanently  potting the bolt later to be made easy.

  

 I then made up a neatly fitting sleeve as long as  possible so that it could be slid from the longer bolt over the shorter one  (when the wing was rigged) but when slid back again over the longer bolt, it  revealed the gap between the two bolts to allow disassembly.

  

 The rest of the job went like this.

    Applied just enough Redux to the head end of the    shank of the bolt so that after cure, it would hold the bolt    firmly.   
Worked the bolt and Redux into the slightly    enlarged hole until fully engaged.   
Slid the sleeve over the bolt just    inserted.   
Rigged the wing.   
Slid the sleeve along until fully over the shorter    bolt or at least even over both bolts.   
Ensured the bolt in the spar was still fully    engaged using long nose pliers on the still visible part of the    shank   
Tip toed away quietly so that it wouldn't see me    going and inexplicably move !!   
Returned after allowing time for Redux to    cure  i.e. next day.   
Slid sleeve back over the bolt in the spar and    removed the wing again.   
Finished potting the bolt on both sides of the    spar with Redux. Job done.

  

 I'm well aware you now have wing fairings to deal  with so short of cutting a hole in them to allow enough access, I can't offer  any other solution.  You can choose from some of the already suggested  methods but IMHO, I really don't think they will fix the PROBLEM.  The  situation may be improved but unless I'm barking up the wrong tree, I think you  will find the trouble reoccurring.

  

 Best regards and good luck

  

 Kingsley

  

  

  

  

  

 ---

brian.davies(at)clara.co.
Guest

Posted: Tue Feb 22, 2011 7:41 am Post subject: Aileron play

I agree with Kingsley that the alignment of the bolts needs checking.  Misalignment often shows itself as varying aileron play depending on the amount of aileron deflection.

 

I have cut out a small part of the wing fairing on the underside, just aft of the spar, about four inches long.  This gives you a good view of the offending bolts, particularly if you fit the wing with the bellcranks removed, and gives just enough room to follow the "Kingsley procedure" for re aligning them, using a pair of long nosed pliers to slide the tubing across.   You can stick the cut out back in place with white silicon caulking/RTV after adding a couple of small flanges to it.  No one will ever know you been there!

 

Don't forget to slide the tubing off the bolts before trying to take the wings off- been there, done that!

 

Regards

 

Brian Davies

 

From: owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Kingsley Hurst

Sent: 22 February 2011 13:06

To: europa-list(at)matronics.com

Subject: Re: Aileron play

 

Hello Frans,



 



 	  Quote: 	
		   Other ideas are welcome of course.


	


 



At the risk of disagreeing with others and saying something stupid because it is now late at night and I'm tired, I would suggest that your problem is that the two bolts on which the quick connect bellcranks pivot are not exactly aligned.  For the bellcranks to operate correctly, they must pivot on a common axis so that they both describe exactly the same arcs when operating.  Tests I did proved that only a very slight misalignment has quite an effect on the gap between the two bellcranks.



 



If the bolts are not exactly aligned, as the bellcranks swing in different arcs, they either become tight or loose.  When they become tight, the bolts, what is supporting the bolts or both, flex to absorb the load induced by the two bellcranks fighting each other.



 



If the bolts ARE correctly aligned, they act like a single bolt with a gap in the middle so when fitting the tufnol strips, there is no need to do so on the aircraft.  This job can be done in a vice with a long bolt and the bellcranks both mounted to it in their correct orientation.  This makes the job very simple and removal of any excess Redux is a breeze.



 



The tricky part is getting the two bolts correctly aligned in the first place and it is a long while since I did it so I hope I can remember correctly.  I enlarged the hole in the spar to allow the spar mounted bolt to be a little sloppy.  I thiink I then somewhat rebated the hole on the bellcrank side of the spar making it similar to what was done to the spar on the head end of the bolt.  This rebate was to allow permanently potting the bolt later to be made easy.



 



I then made up a neatly fitting sleeve as long as possible so that it could be slid from the longer bolt over the shorter one (when the wing was rigged) but when slid back again over the longer bolt, it revealed the gap between the two bolts to allow disassembly.



 



The rest of the job went like this.

Applied just enough Redux to the head end of the shank of the bolt so that after cure, it would hold the bolt firmly.
Worked the bolt and Redux into the slightly enlarged hole until fully engaged.
Slid the sleeve over the bolt just inserted.
Rigged the wing.
Slid the sleeve along until fully over the shorter bolt or at least even over both bolts.
Ensured the bolt in the spar was still fully engaged using long nose pliers on the still visible part of the shank
Tip toed away quietly so that it wouldn't see me going and inexplicably move !!
Returned after allowing time for Redux to cure  i.e. next day.
Slid sleeve back over the bolt in the spar and removed the wing again.
Finished potting the bolt on both sides of the spar with Redux.

Job done.



 



I'm well aware you now have wing fairings to deal with so short of cutting a hole in them to allow enough access, I can't offer any other solution.  You can choose from some of the already suggested methods but IMHO, I really don't think they will fix the PROBLEM.  The situation may be improved but unless I'm barking up the wrong tree, I think you will find the trouble reoccurring.



 



Best regards and good luck



 



Kingsley



 



 



 



 



 



---

jrgowing(at)bigpond.net.a
Guest

Posted: Tue Feb 22, 2011 2:51 pm Post subject: Aileron play

Hello Frans

 

Another idea from one of Kingsley’s friends in Oz ---

 

If all was working smoothly before and there is just some play developed…………………

 

Before trying any big work I would try laying various thicknesses of sticky tape on the most worn face of the quick-connect to find out whether there is a gap and how big it is and whether it cures your problem.

 

JR (Bob) Gowing Kit 327 in Oz

 

From: owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Kingsley Hurst

Sent: Wednesday, 23 February 2011 12:06 AM

To: europa-list(at)matronics.com

Subject: Re: Aileron play

 

Hello Frans,



 



 	  Quote: 	
		   Other ideas are welcome of course.


	


 



At the risk of disagreeing with others and saying something stupid because it is now late at night and I'm tired, I would suggest that your problem is that the two bolts on which the quick connect bellcranks pivot are not exactly aligned.  For the bellcranks to operate correctly, they must pivot on a common axis so that they both describe exactly the same arcs when operating.  Tests I did proved that only a very slight misalignment has quite an effect on the gap between the two bellcranks.



 



If the bolts are not exactly aligned, as the bellcranks swing in different arcs, they either become tight or loose.  When they become tight, the bolts, what is supporting the bolts or both, flex to absorb the load induced by the two bellcranks fighting each other.



 



If the bolts ARE correctly aligned, they act like a single bolt with a gap in the middle so when fitting the tufnol strips, there is no need to do so on the aircraft.  This job can be done in a vice with a long bolt and the bellcranks both mounted to it in their correct orientation.  This makes the job very simple and removal of any excess Redux is a breeze.



 



The tricky part is getting the two bolts correctly aligned in the first place and it is a long while since I did it so I hope I can remember correctly.  I enlarged the hole in the spar to allow the spar mounted bolt to be a little sloppy.  I thiink I then somewhat rebated the hole on the bellcrank side of the spar making it similar to what was done to the spar on the head end of the bolt.  This rebate was to allow permanently potting the bolt later to be made easy.



 



I then made up a neatly fitting sleeve as long as possible so that it could be slid from the longer bolt over the shorter one (when the wing was rigged) but when slid back again over the longer bolt, it revealed the gap between the two bolts to allow disassembly.



 



The rest of the job went like this.

Applied just enough Redux to the head end of the shank of the bolt so that after cure, it would hold the bolt firmly.
Worked the bolt and Redux into the slightly enlarged hole until fully engaged.
Slid the sleeve over the bolt just inserted.
Rigged the wing.
Slid the sleeve along until fully over the shorter bolt or at least even over both bolts.
Ensured the bolt in the spar was still fully engaged using long nose pliers on the still visible part of the shank
Tip toed away quietly so that it wouldn't see me going and inexplicably move !!
Returned after allowing time for Redux to cure  i.e. next day.
Slid sleeve back over the bolt in the spar and removed the wing again.
Finished potting the bolt on both sides of the spar with Redux.

Job done.



 



I'm well aware you now have wing fairings to deal with so short of cutting a hole in them to allow enough access, I can't offer any other solution.  You can choose from some of the already suggested methods but IMHO, I really don't think they will fix the PROBLEM.  The situation may be improved but unless I'm barking up the wrong tree, I think you will find the trouble reoccurring.



 



Best regards and good luck



 



Kingsley



 



 



 



 



 



---

frans(at)privatepilots.nl
Guest

Posted: Wed Mar 02, 2011 11:41 am Post subject: Aileron play

On 02/22/2011 04:33 PM, Brian Davies wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   I agree with Kingsley that the alignment of the bolts needs checking. 


	


I got more replies than I hoped for. Everything makes sense.

As far as I remember the alignment of the bolts was ok. I see some

scuffing marks on the surfaces, but there is no measurable wear. So far

I assume that misalignment is not an issue (but for sure I will check

this if the play returns).

I will just reposition the tefnol surface in the manner suggested by

many forum members. Now I just have to wait until the weather is warm

enough to allow the Araldite to cure.



 	  Quote: 	
		   I have cut out a small part of the wing fairing on the underside, just

 aft of the spar, about four inches long.


	


I will follow this procedure if the play re-occurs. Thanks!



Thanks everyone for the assistance!!!



Frans

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