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brubakermal(at)yahoo.com
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 Posted: Sat Feb 26, 2011 10:55 pm Post subject: Kolb-List: club planes? |
 |
|
just a bit of history
Malcolm Brubaker
Michigan Sport
Pilot Repair
LSRM-A, PPC, WS
(989)513-3022
----- Forwarded Message ----
From: "Ron (at) KFHU" <captainron1(at)cox.net>
To: kolb-list(at)matronics.com
Sent: Sun, February 6, 2011 11:28:57 AM
Subject: Re: Kolb-List: club planes?
--> Kolb-List message posted by: "Ron (at) KFHU" <captainron1(at)cox.net (captainron1(at)cox.net)>
Well that's a good idea. Could certainly use it (My M3X) here in KFHU, it may even motivate me more to finish my project faster, which is 90% complete with 100% left to do kinda thing.
However ignoring the FAA in this equation is pretty much kicking the can down the road. I think in terms of movement there has to be a wide ranging recognition the the FAA is the problem in general aviation. Fearing the FAA or thinking in terms of compliance with FAA all the time as we do now is strangling aviation. If there is no concerted effort to truncate their pervasive intrusion into aviation; the contraction will continue.
I think I mentioned before that I almost never see young kids around taking flying lessons anymore. Its not because aviation has stopped firing up the imagination of the younger generation, its because the fun the freedom and the joy have been stomped out of flying by the FAA to an alarming degree. By all rights the Kolb factory should be busy and backlogged for orders, yet it is not happening. So the idea of a club to circumvent FAA rules is a valid and good, but it will not reverse the difficulty of being an aircraft owner aviator. The future is as it has always been in people owning their aircraft and plying the skies in freedom. I have yet to see an organization come about that makes it as its prime objective to restore freedom to aviate, by going after the source of the constraints. That is what we need most of all right now.
---- Malcolm Brubaker <brubakermal(at)yahoo.com (brubakermal(at)yahoo.com)> wrote:
=============
We had an interesting discussion on linkedin this weekend. All about flight
instruction and the idea of turning an experimental into a club plane so an
instructor could legally use it to teach the owners to fly. This theory is
viable and there is FAA approval to do this.
What I think would really jump start the process is a pre-developed general
format. One that would be easy for people to follow in developing their
own club and fractional ownership; not much different than the downloads a
person can buy to write their own will or start a non profit 401c3 corporation.
These always contain several disclaimers and liability waivers just like the
ones we used in the old days to teach ultralight flying.
This would help the ultralight pilot and sport pilot want-to-be, as well as the
instructor.
The idea of teaching someone to fly in a $14,000 plane with a 582 is not that
far fetched. We all know people that have. It seemes like a better option than
the $60,000 to $100,000 planes everyone thinks they currently need . When
a student becomes a licensed pilot they can transition up.
What this sport needs now is for people to stop focusing on the problem and
develope a solution. The ultralight trainer was so successful that it was
turned into a sport pilot plane; and that took 20 years. Even a 2 place Kolb
classic could qualify.
Malcolm Brubaker
Michigan Sport
Pilot Repair
LSRM-A, PPC, WS
(989)513-3022
________________________________
From: Pat Ladd <pj.ladd(at)btinternet.com (pj.ladd(at)btinternet.com)>
To: kolb-list(at)matronics.com (kolb-list(at)matronics.com)
Sent: Sat, February 5, 2011 10:45:06 AM
Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Kolb list: Pitot probe
Hi Mike,
<< I added my own extension>>
Nice neat job.
P==============
--
kugelair.com
[quote][b]
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cliffh(at)outdrs.net
Guest
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| Posted: Sun Feb 27, 2011 12:29 pm Post subject: Kolb-List: club planes? |
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I agree also. I spent nearly my whole adult life in general aviation. The best thing that could happen to general avaition is to abolish the FAA.
It is the most overstaffed, overpaid, and underworked group of people I know.
Floran Higgins
Helena Mt.
Speedster
912 ULS
[quote] ---
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MichaelGibbs(at)cox.net
Guest
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| Posted: Sun Feb 27, 2011 12:44 pm Post subject: Kolb-List: club planes? |
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| Quote: | ...Most government rules and regulations are a parasitic drag on
what ever the activity is they are involved in.
|
Looks like you're right...
Mike G.
N728KF, Kitfox IV-1200 Speedster
Phoenix, AZ
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MDKitfox(at)aol.com
Guest
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| Posted: Sun Feb 27, 2011 3:07 pm Post subject: Kolb-List: club planes? |
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|
Gentleman,
I am finding this thread particularly interesting. Without a two hour dissertation on the subject, please allow me to make a few points for us to ponder. These are just my opinions and probably don't count for much more than that.
I can agree that the FAA sometimes goes overboard, but it's usually in response to an external force. Maybe they are overpaid, but they are certainly not underworked. To the contrary, there are about 6,000 aviation safety inspectors in the FAA. Those folks cover every airline, every business, every certificate action, actually they work for everyone of us who wants to get something done within the system. I think when careful thought is given to the subject, isn't it possible that the workforce is spread pretty thin? I don't believe for a moment they are going out of there to find more work. It is clear they are paying more attention to us and maybe hindering our abilities to do some things. I think something or someone is ringing their bell and they are responding to that. The question to be addressed is what or who is getting their attention.
It's my opinion, and that of some others, that a portion of the problem lies with us - the pilots, the builders of experimental aircraft. Our safety record is abysmal. Compared to other GA activities we stand out - with a terrible record. For the past few years we, as a group, have been in denial about our safety record. The AOPA Nall report (less their atrocious commentary on the subject), and especially the stats as presented by Ron Wannttaja in Sport Aviation (checkout his article in the Jan 2011 edition) all depict the problem. We need to fix what's broke before the FAA is going to provide relief for expanding what we want to do.
IMHO our Tech Counselor and Flight Advisor Programs are currently underutilized, poorly promoted, and possibly ineffectual in their current state. As a segment of GA we have had tremendous growth and it's possible our programs have not kept up, or perhaps they are misdirected. Is it possible the boom in the kit industry has outpaced the safety programs? Safety should be our foremost thought, but I'm not sure it is. I am sure, that like a number of folks on this list, I have lost friends to stupid acts of airmanship and other deadly mistakes that could possibly have been avoided. Yes, these are experimental aircraft and things can go wrong, engines can quit, and mistakes can be made, but a good safety management system will reduce these tremendously. We need a strong system and strong people to fix the problems that exist.
To the FAA, this is their business. Congress holds then accountable for our safety record 'almost' as much as they do for the air carriers. When Congress is interested, trust me, the FAA sometimes starts to take draconian actions, that is until the alphabet groups weigh in and cooler heads prevail.
On the flip side, to us, members of EAA, it's personal - not business. Our friends are being injured or killed. Our mere existence is always in question because only we (and the FAA) really care. The general public sees us as the reason for air traffic delays and view us as rich guys, privileged and above others (pun intended) if you will. They don't give a flip about our freedoms. Our segment of aviation is not a right, it's a privilege and one that we have to earn with every flight. Our mistakes end up on the 6 o'clock news and make headlines. I think we are going to have to do better.
As we speak there are changes coming to the aforementioned programs and I'm hopeful that over time these will improve our safety record. But I don't think we can rely only on those programs. Each of us needs to find constructive ways to impart a safety culture in what we do and what others who share our passion do. I don't believe blaming the FAA will improve our lot and without a groundswell of a few million people pounding on their elected representatives, I think the FAA is here to stay. We do have some control over what form the FAA takes. If we're safe, responsible, and plan ahead, they will back off and go find something else to address. Most of them are not against us, in fact, many of them fly experimental aircraft and build aircraft just as we do. They are only responding to the pressures within the beltway of DC and the statistics that tend to drive the system.
I hope this doesn't come across as preaching, I mean it to be just a viewpoint. However, I would really like to hear some constructive ideas to fix any of the problems.
Rick Weiss
N39RW Series V Speedster, 912ULS
SkyStar S/N 1
Port Orange, FL
PS - in the spirit of complete disclosure, I am currently Chairman of the EAA Homebuilt Aircraft Council and a retired (1997) FAA senior manager/engineer/pilot. I will take your thoughts, comments, and ideas to the senior EAA managers and hopefully provide some useful input into the ultimate decision making process. Okay? That said, flame away:-)
On Feb 27, 2011, at 1:53 AM, Malcolm Brubaker wrote:
| Quote: |
just a bit of history
Malcolm Brubaker
Michigan Sport
Pilot Repair
LSRM-A, PPC, WS
(989)513-3022
----- Forwarded Message ----
From: "Ron (at) KFHU" <captainron1(at)cox.net (captainron1(at)cox.net)>
To: kolb-list(at)matronics.com (kolb-list(at)matronics.com)
Sent: Sun, February 6, 2011 11:28:57 AM
Subject: Re: Kolb-List: club planes?
--> Kolb-List message posted by: "Ron (at) KFHU" <captainron1(at)cox.net (captainron1(at)cox.net)>
Well that's a good idea. Could certainly use it (My M3X) here in KFHU, it may even motivate me more to finish my project faster, which is 90% complete with 100% left to do kinda thing.
However ignoring the FAA in this equation is pretty much kicking the can down the road. I think in terms of movement there has to be a wide ranging recognition the the FAA is the problem in general aviation. Fearing the FAA or thinking in terms of compliance with FAA all the time as we do now is strangling aviation. If there is no concerted effort to truncate their pervasive intrusion into aviation; the contraction will continue.
I think I mentioned before that I almost never see young kids around taking flying lessons anymore. Its not because aviation has stopped firing up the imagination of the younger generation, its because the fun the freedom and the joy have been stomped out of flying by the FAA to an alarming degree. By all rights the Kolb factory should be busy and backlogged for orders, yet it is not happening. So the idea of a club to circumvent FAA rules is a valid and good, but it will not reverse the difficulty of being an aircraft owner aviator. The future is as it has always been in people owning their aircraft and plying the skies in freedom. I have yet to see an organization come about that makes it as its prime objective to restore freedom to aviate, by going after the source of the constraints. That is what we need most of all right now.
---- Malcolm Brubaker <brubakermal(at)yahoo.com (brubakermal(at)yahoo.com)> wrote:
=============
We had an interesting discussion on linkedin this weekend. All about flight
instruction and the idea of turning an experimental into a club plane so an
instructor could legally use it to teach the owners to fly. This theory is
viable and there is FAA approval to do this.
What I think would really jump start the process is a pre-developed general
format. One that would be easy for people to follow in developing their
own club and fractional ownership; not much different than the downloads a
person can buy to write their own will or start a non profit 401c3 corporation.
These always contain several disclaimers and liability waivers just like the
ones we used in the old days to teach ultralight flying.
This would help the ultralight pilot and sport pilot want-to-be, as well as the
instructor.
The idea of teaching someone to fly in a $14,000 plane with a 582 is not that
far fetched. We all know people that have. It seemes like a better option than
the $60,000 to $100,000 planes everyone thinks they currently need . When
a student becomes a licensed pilot they can transition up.
What this sport needs now is for people to stop focusing on the problem and
develope a solution. The ultralight trainer was so successful that it was
turned into a sport pilot plane; and that took 20 years. Even a 2 place Kolb
classic could qualify.
Malcolm Brubaker
Michigan Sport
Pilot Repair
LSRM-A, PPC, WS
(989)513-3022
________________________________
From: Pat Ladd <pj.ladd(at)btinternet.com (pj.ladd(at)btinternet.com)>
To: kolb-list(at)matronics.com (kolb-list(at)matronics.com)
Sent: Sat, February 5, 2011 10:45:06 AM
Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Kolb list: Pitot probe
Hi Mike,
<< I added my own extension>>
Nice neat job.
P==============
--
kugelair.com
[/url]
[url=http://kugelair.com/]
|
[quote][b]
| | - The Matronics Kitfox-List Email Forum - | | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kitfox-List |
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rliebmann(at)comcast.net
Guest
|
| Posted: Sun Feb 27, 2011 4:56 pm Post subject: Kolb-List: club planes? |
|
|
No flames from me, Rick. I am in complete agreement with you. And, you could not have said it better.
Ron Liebmann N55KF FA/TC 15 years
From: Weiss Richard (MDKitfox(at)aol.com)
Sent: Sunday, February 27, 2011 5:04 PM
To: kitfox-list(at)matronics.com (kitfox-list(at)matronics.com)
Subject: Re: Fw: Kolb-List: club planes?
Gentleman,
I am finding this thread particularly interesting. Without a two hour dissertation on the subject, please allow me to make a few points for us to ponder. These are just my opinions and probably don't count for much more than that.
I can agree that the FAA sometimes goes overboard, but it's usually in response to an external force. Maybe they are overpaid, but they are certainly not underworked. To the contrary, there are about 6,000 aviation safety inspectors in the FAA. Those folks cover every airline, every business, every certificate action, actually they work for everyone of us who wants to get something done within the system. I think when careful thought is given to the subject, isn't it possible that the workforce is spread pretty thin? I don't believe for a moment they are going out of there to find more work. It is clear they are paying more attention to us and maybe hindering our abilities to do some things. I think something or someone is ringing their bell and they are responding to that. The question to be addressed is what or who is getting their attention.
It's my opinion, and that of some others, that a portion of the problem lies with us - the pilots, the builders of experimental aircraft. Our safety record is abysmal. Compared to other GA activities we stand out - with a terrible record. For the past few years we, as a group, have been in denial about our safety record. The AOPA Nall report (less their atrocious commentary on the subject), and especially the stats as presented by Ron Wannttaja in Sport Aviation (checkout his article in the Jan 2011 edition) all depict the problem. We need to fix what's broke before the FAA is going to provide relief for expanding what we want to do.
IMHO our Tech Counselor and Flight Advisor Programs are currently underutilized, poorly promoted, and possibly ineffectual in their current state. As a segment of GA we have had tremendous growth and it's possible our programs have not kept up, or perhaps they are misdirected. Is it possible the boom in the kit industry has outpaced the safety programs? Safety should be our foremost thought, but I'm not sure it is. I am sure, that like a number of folks on this list, I have lost friends to stupid acts of airmanship and other deadly mistakes that could possibly have been avoided. Yes, these are experimental aircraft and things can go wrong, engines can quit, and mistakes can be made, but a good safety management system will reduce these tremendously. We need a strong system and strong people to fix the problems that exist.
To the FAA, this is their business. Congress holds then accountable for our safety record 'almost' as much as they do for the air carriers. When Congress is interested, trust me, the FAA sometimes starts to take draconian actions, that is until the alphabet groups weigh in and cooler heads prevail.
On the flip side, to us, members of EAA, it's personal - not business. Our friends are being injured or killed. Our mere existence is always in question because only we (and the FAA) really care. The general public sees us as the reason for air traffic delays and view us as rich guys, privileged and above others (pun intended) if you will. They don't give a flip about our freedoms. Our segment of aviation is not a right, it's a privilege and one that we have to earn with every flight. Our mistakes end up on the 6 o'clock news and make headlines. I think we are going to have to do better.
As we speak there are changes coming to the aforementioned programs and I'm hopeful that over time these will improve our safety record. But I don't think we can rely only on those programs. Each of us needs to find constructive ways to impart a safety culture in what we do and what others who share our passion do. I don't believe blaming the FAA will improve our lot and without a groundswell of a few million people pounding on their elected representatives, I think the FAA is here to stay. We do have some control over what form the FAA takes. If we're safe, responsible, and plan ahead, they will back off and go find something else to address. Most of them are not against us, in fact, many of them fly experimental aircraft and build aircraft just as we do. They are only responding to the pressures within the beltway of DC and the statistics that tend to drive the system.
I hope this doesn't come across as preaching, I mean it to be just a viewpoint. However, I would really like to hear some constructive ideas to fix any of the problems.
Rick Weiss
N39RW Series V Speedster, 912ULS
SkyStar S/N 1
Port Orange, FL
PS - in the spirit of complete disclosure, I am currently Chairman of the EAA Homebuilt Aircraft Council and a retired (1997) FAA senior manager/engineer/pilot. I will take your thoughts, comments, and ideas to the senior EAA managers and hopefully provide some useful input into the ultimate decision making process. Okay? That said, flame away:-)
On Feb 27, 2011, at 1:53 AM, Malcolm Brubaker wrote:
[quote]
just a bit of history
Malcolm Brubaker
Michigan Sport
Pilot Repair
LSRM-A, PPC, WS
(989)513-3022
----- Forwarded Message ----
From: "Ron (at) KFHU" <captainron1(at)cox.net (captainron1(at)cox.net)>
To: kolb-list(at)matronics.com (kolb-list(at)matronics.com)
Sent: Sun, February 6, 2011 11:28:57 AM
Subject: Re: Kolb-List: club planes?
--> Kolb-List message posted by: "Ron (at) KFHU" <captainron1(at)cox.net (captainron1(at)cox.net)>
Well that's a good idea. Could certainly use it (My M3X) here in KFHU, it may even motivate me more to finish my project faster, which is 90% complete with 100% left to do kinda thing.
However ignoring the FAA in this equation is pretty much kicking the can down the road. I think in terms of movement there has to be a wide ranging recognition the the FAA is the problem in general aviation. Fearing the FAA or thinking in terms of compliance with FAA all the time as we do now is strangling aviation. If there is no concerted effort to truncate their pervasive intrusion into aviation; the contraction will continue.
I think I mentioned before that I almost never see young kids around taking flying lessons anymore. Its not because aviation has stopped firing up the imagination of the younger generation, its because the fun the freedom and the joy have been stomped out of flying by the FAA to an alarming degree. By all rights the Kolb factory should be busy and backlogged for orders, yet it is not happening. So the idea of a club to circumvent FAA rules is a valid and good, but it will not reverse the difficulty of being an aircraft owner aviator. The future is as it has always been in people owning their aircraft and plying the skies in freedom. I have yet to see an organization come about that makes it as its prime objective to restore freedom to aviate, by going after the source of the constraints. That is what we need most of all right now.
---- Malcolm Brubaker <brubakermal(at)yahoo.com (brubakermal(at)yahoo.com)> wrote:
=============
We had an interesting discussion on linkedin this weekend. All about flight
instruction and the idea of turning an experimental into a club plane so an
instructor could legally use it to teach the owners to fly. This theory is
viable and there is FAA approval to do this.
What I think would really jump start the process is a pre-developed general
format. One that would be easy for people to follow in developing their
own club and fractional ownership; not much different than the downloads a
person can buy to write their own will or start a non profit 401c3 corporation.
These always contain several disclaimers and liability waivers just like the
ones we used in the old days to teach ultralight flying.
This would help the ultralight pilot and sport pilot want-to-be, as well as the
instructor.
The idea of teaching someone to fly in a $14,000 plane with a 582 is not that
far fetched. We all know people that have. It seemes like a better option than
the $60,000 to $100,000 planes everyone thinks they currently need . When
a student becomes a licensed pilot they can transition up.
What this sport needs now is for people to stop focusing on the problem and
develope a solution. The ultralight trainer was so successful that it was
turned into a sport pilot plane; and that took 20 years. Even a 2 place Kolb
classic could qualify.
Malcolm Brubaker
Michigan Sport
Pilot Repair
LSRM-A, PPC, WS
(989)513-3022
________________________________
From: Pat Ladd <pj.ladd(at)btinternet.com (pj.ladd(at)btinternet.com)>
To: kolb-list(at)matronics.com (kolb-list(at)matronics.com)
Sent: Sat, February 5, 2011 10:45:06 AM
Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Kolb list: Pitot probe
Hi Mike,
<< I added my own extension>>
Nice neat job.
P==============
--
kugelair.com
[/url]
[url=http://kugelair.com/]
href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kitfox-List">http://www.matronhref="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c
[b]
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helili(at)chahtatushka.ne
Guest
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| Posted: Sun Feb 27, 2011 5:17 pm Post subject: Kolb-List: club planes? |
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|
Rick,
I agree. One thing that we need to do, in my opinion, is to do our own safety management. We, as a group, would benefit from less FAA oversight if we could get our accident/incident rate down to, or below, the accident rate of the rest of GA. The only way we can do that is to be our own conformance inspectors and do away with some of our macho, egotistical mind sets. I’ve had some of those states of mind on occasion.
Most aviation accidents are not caused from a single discrepancy, but from a series of minor causal factors, that snowball until situational awareness is lost and the aircraft strikes the planet in an “ungood” manner. Homebuilt aircraft essentially react to these planet strikes in the same manner as certificated aircraft.
I’m as guilty as anyone about occasionally letting something fall through the cracks that could adversely affect safety, although I strive to avoid those situations as well as I can. There are lots of folks in the EAA and among homebuilders in general that have myriads of experience and expertise that are more than willing to help in suggesting ways to put things together, to verify that the way something is put together is safe, and to offer flying techniques instruction in aircraft we may not be familiar with. It’s going to take a change in our collective attitudes to learn to use all those assets to effect a safety improvement program that results in an acceptable accident rate.
John Hart
KF IV
Wilburton, OK
CW4 US Army (Retired)
US Army Aviation Safety Officer Course Graduate
Commercial Pilot
ASEL, ASES, AMEL, Rotorcraft-Helicopter, Instrument Airplane and Helicopter
CFI
AS&MEL, Rotorcraft-Helicopter, Instrument Airplane and Helicopter
Mechanic
Airframe and Powerplant
Former FAA Aviation Safety Technician
From: owner-kitfox-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Weiss Richard
Sent: Sunday, February 27, 2011 5:04 PM
To: kitfox-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: Re: Fw: Kolb-List: club planes?
Gentleman,
I am finding this thread particularly interesting. Without a two hour dissertation on the subject, please allow me to make a few points for us to ponder. These are just my opinions and probably don't count for much more than that.
I can agree that the FAA sometimes goes overboard, but it's usually in response to an external force. Maybe they are overpaid, but they are certainly not underworked. To the contrary, there are about 6,000 aviation safety inspectors in the FAA. Those folks cover every airline, every business, every certificate action, actually they work for everyone of us who wants to get something done within the system. I think when careful thought is given to the subject, isn't it possible that the workforce is spread pretty thin? I don't believe for a moment they are going out of there to find more work. It is clear they are paying more attention to us and maybe hindering our abilities to do some things. I think something or someone is ringing their bell and they are responding to that. The question to be addressed is what or who is getting their attention.
It's my opinion, and that of some others, that a portion of the problem lies with us - the pilots, the builders of experimental aircraft. Our safety record is abysmal. Compared to other GA activities we stand out - with a terrible record. For the past few years we, as a group, have been in denial about our safety record. The AOPA Nall report (less their atrocious commentary on the subject), and especially the stats as presented by Ron Wannttaja in Sport Aviation (checkout his article in the Jan 2011 edition) all depict the problem. We need to fix what's broke before the FAA is going to provide relief for expanding what we want to do.
IMHO our Tech Counselor and Flight Advisor Programs are currently underutilized, poorly promoted, and possibly ineffectual in their current state. As a segment of GA we have had tremendous growth and it's possible our programs have not kept up, or perhaps they are misdirected. Is it possible the boom in the kit industry has outpaced the safety programs? Safety should be our foremost thought, but I'm not sure it is. I am sure, that like a number of folks on this list, I have lost friends to stupid acts of airmanship and other deadly mistakes that could possibly have been avoided. Yes, these are experimental aircraft and things can go wrong, engines can quit, and mistakes can be made, but a good safety management system will reduce these tremendously. We need a strong system and strong people to fix the problems that exist.
To the FAA, this is their business. Congress holds then accountable for our safety record 'almost' as much as they do for the air carriers. When Congress is interested, trust me, the FAA sometimes starts to take draconian actions, that is until the alphabet groups weigh in and cooler heads prevail.
On the flip side, to us, members of EAA, it's personal - not business. Our friends are being injured or killed. Our mere existence is always in question because only we (and the FAA) really care. The general public sees us as the reason for air traffic delays and view us as rich guys, privileged and above others (pun intended) if you will. They don't give a flip about our freedoms. Our segment of aviation is not a right, it's a privilege and one that we have to earn with every flight. Our mistakes end up on the 6 o'clock news and make headlines. I think we are going to have to do better.
As we speak there are changes coming to the aforementioned programs and I'm hopeful that over time these will improve our safety record. But I don't think we can rely only on those programs. Each of us needs to find constructive ways to impart a safety culture in what we do and what others who share our passion do. I don't believe blaming the FAA will improve our lot and without a groundswell of a few million people pounding on their elected representatives, I think the FAA is here to stay. We do have some control over what form the FAA takes. If we're safe, responsible, and plan ahead, they will back off and go find something else to address. Most of them are not against us, in fact, many of them fly experimental aircraft and build aircraft just as we do. They are only responding to the pressures within the beltway of DC and the statistics that tend to drive the system.
I hope this doesn't come across as preaching, I mean it to be just a viewpoint. However, I would really like to hear some constructive ideas to fix any of the problems.
Rick Weiss
N39RW Series V Speedster, 912ULS
SkyStar S/N 1
Port Orange, FL
PS - in the spirit of complete disclosure, I am currently Chairman of the EAA Homebuilt Aircraft Council and a retired (1997) FAA senior manager/engineer/pilot. I will take your thoughts, comments, and ideas to the senior EAA managers and hopefully provide some useful input into the ultimate decision making process. Okay? That said, flame away:-)
On Feb 27, 2011, at 1:53 AM, Malcolm Brubaker wrote:
just a bit of history
Malcolm Brubaker
Michigan Sport
Pilot Repair
LSRM-A, PPC, WS
(989)513-3022
----- Forwarded Message ----
From: "Ron (at) KFHU" <captainron1(at)cox.net (captainron1(at)cox.net)>
To: kolb-list(at)matronics.com (kolb-list(at)matronics.com)
Sent: Sun, February 6, 2011 11:28:57 AM
Subject: Re: Kolb-List: club planes?
--> Kolb-List message posted by: "Ron (at) KFHU" <captainron1(at)cox.net (captainron1(at)cox.net)>
Well that's a good idea. Could certainly use it (My M3X) here in KFHU, it may even motivate me more to finish my project faster, which is 90% complete with 100% left to do kinda thing.
However ignoring the FAA in this equation is pretty much kicking the can down the road. I think in terms of movement there has to be a wide ranging recognition the the FAA is the problem in general aviation. Fearing the FAA or thinking in terms of compliance with FAA all the time as we do now is strangling aviation. If there is no concerted effort to truncate their pervasive intrusion into aviation; the contraction will continue.
I think I mentioned before that I almost never see young kids around taking flying lessons anymore. Its not because aviation has stopped firing up the imagination of the younger generation, its because the fun the freedom and the joy have been stomped out of flying by the FAA to an alarming degree. By all rights the Kolb factory should be busy and backlogged for orders, yet it is not happening. So the idea of a club to circumvent FAA rules is a valid and good, but it will not reverse the difficulty of being an aircraft owner aviator. The future is as it has always been in people owning their aircraft and plying the skies in freedom. I have yet to see an organization come about that makes it as its prime objective to restore freedom to aviate, by going after the source of the constraints. That is what we need most of all right now.
---- Malcolm Brubaker <brubakermal(at)yahoo.com (brubakermal(at)yahoo.com)> wrote:
=============
We had an interesting discussion on linkedin this weekend. All about flight
instruction and the idea of turning an experimental into a club plane so an
instructor could legally use it to teach the owners to fly. This theory is
viable and there is FAA approval to do this.
What I think would really jump start the process is a pre-developed general
format. One that would be easy for people to follow in developing their
own club and fractional ownership; not much different than the downloads a
person can buy to write their own will or start a non profit 401c3 corporation.
These always contain several disclaimers and liability waivers just like the
ones we used in the old days to teach ultralight flying.
This would help the ultralight pilot and sport pilot want-to-be, as well as the
instructor.
The idea of teaching someone to fly in a $14,000 plane with a 582 is not that
far fetched. We all know people that have. It seemes like a better option than
the $60,000 to $100,000 planes everyone thinks they currently need . When
a student becomes a licensed pilot they can transition up.
What this sport needs now is for people to stop focusing on the problem and
develope a solution. The ultralight trainer was so successful that it was
turned into a sport pilot plane; and that took 20 years. Even a 2 place Kolb
classic could qualify.
Malcolm Brubaker
Michigan Sport
Pilot Repair
LSRM-A, PPC, WS
(989)513-3022
________________________________
From: Pat Ladd <pj.ladd(at)btinternet.com (pj.ladd(at)btinternet.com)>
To: kolb-list(at)matronics.com (kolb-list(at)matronics.com)
Sent: Sat, February 5, 2011 10:45:06 AM
Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Kolb list: Pitot probe
Hi Mike,
<< I added my own extension>>
Nice neat job.
P==============
--
kugelair.com
01234567890123
[quote][b]
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cliffh(at)outdrs.net
Guest
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| Posted: Sun Feb 27, 2011 6:52 pm Post subject: Kolb-List: club planes? |
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I would like to make a comment from my viewpoint.
When I srarted to fly in Jan 1953 there was two FAA inspectors in Montana. One in Helena and one in Billings. Today there is 25 inspectors in the Helena office and five secretarys I am now retired so I don't know how many there are in Billings. I do know that there is only about 2/3 as many active pilots and airplanes in Mt now as there was in 1950.
I knew some of these FAA people quite well. They have told me that they do not have enough work to do so they are out nitpicking the flight operators so they can write a memo just to justify their positions
Floran Higgins
Helena, Mt
Speedster
912ULS..
[quote] ---
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MDKitfox(at)aol.com
Guest
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| Posted: Sun Feb 27, 2011 7:07 pm Post subject: Kolb-List: club planes? |
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Floran,
If that's true, and I have no reason to doubt your word, it's just wrong. Maybe it's time, we the people, do something about it. These things are fixable if our elected officials are made aware of the issues. If they don't fix it, then they get taken care of in the next election. Most important is to be sure the facts are truly the facts.
I know in our area, the FAA is spread a little thin, but then guys from Montana may not want to live here, it may be a little too flat for them:-)
Rick Weiss
N39RW Series V Speedster, 912ULS
SkyStar S/N 1
Port Orange, FL
On Feb 27, 2011, at 9:49 PM, floran higgins wrote:
[quote]I would like to make a comment from my viewpoint.
When I srarted to fly in Jan 1953 there was two FAA inspectors in Montana. One in Helena and one in Billings. Today there is 25 inspectors in the Helena office and five secretarys I am now retired so I don't know how many there are in Billings. I do know that there is only about 2/3 as many active pilots and airplanes in Mt now as there was in 1950.
I knew some of these FAA people quite well. They have told me that they do not have enough work to do so they are out nitpicking the flight operators so they can write a memo just to justify their positions
Floran Higgins
Helena, Mt
Speedster
912ULS..
[quote]---
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lcfitt(at)sbcglobal.net
Guest
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| Posted: Sun Feb 27, 2011 7:35 pm Post subject: Kolb-List: club planes? |
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I have been following this thread and have some thoughts - based on a little experience but I will withhold my opinions.
In our area, the FSDO does get involved in Airworthiness Inspections. My first went off as a very good experience with the FAA, but that was over ten years ago. A neighbor had his RV-10 inspected recently with virtually the same result. When we did our emergency landing that destroyed our Model IV and brought the FAA calling, I have to say that what I experienced was professional and actually quite pleasant. All worked as I expected and more. I had done my job - I had all the paperwork, my log book was current as was my medical - he did his.
A fellow contributor to the forums is trying to get the Danish version of the FAA to authorize their version of an airworthiness certificate and the hoops he is forced to "fly" through are quite astonishing and his perseverance is quite inspiring. He is having to replace the lift struts, and after he does, he will have to invert the whole airplane and place I.6 tons of sand bags on the wings to prove (to the government) that it is structurally sound. If I understand our regs, if I chose to replace my lift struts with home made ones, all I would have to do is report the major modification and fly off another FAA mandated test period.
I put 900 hours on my first Model IV and can't think of a single incident where I was negatively affected or felt constrained by the FAA.
Lowell
From: John W. Hart (helili(at)chahtatushka.net)
Sent: Sunday, February 27, 2011 5:14 PM
To: kitfox-list(at)matronics.com (kitfox-list(at)matronics.com)
Subject: RE: Fw: Kolb-List: club planes?
Rick,
I agree. One thing that we need to do, in my opinion, is to do our own safety management. We, as a group, would benefit from less FAA oversight if we could get our accident/incident rate down to, or below, the accident rate of the rest of GA. The only way we can do that is to be our own conformance inspectors and do away with some of our macho, egotistical mind sets. I’ve had some of those states of mind on occasion.
Most aviation accidents are not caused from a single discrepancy, but from a series of minor causal factors, that snowball until situational awareness is lost and the aircraft strikes the planet in an “ungood” manner. Homebuilt aircraft essentially react to these planet strikes in the same manner as certificated aircraft.
I’m as guilty as anyone about occasionally letting something fall through the cracks that could adversely affect safety, although I strive to avoid those situations as well as I can. There are lots of folks in the EAA and among homebuilders in general that have myriads of experience and expertise that are more than willing to help in suggesting ways to put things together, to verify that the way something is put together is safe, and to offer flying techniques instruction in aircraft we may not be familiar with. It’s going to take a change in our collective attitudes to learn to use all those assets to effect a safety improvement program that results in an acceptable accident rate.
John Hart
KF IV
Wilburton, OK
CW4 US Army (Retired)
US Army Aviation Safety Officer Course Graduate
Commercial Pilot
ASEL, ASES, AMEL, Rotorcraft-Helicopter, Instrument Airplane and Helicopter
CFI
AS&MEL, Rotorcraft-Helicopter, Instrument Airplane and Helicopter
Mechanic
Airframe and Powerplant
Former FAA Aviation Safety Technician
From: owner-kitfox-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Weiss Richard
Sent: Sunday, February 27, 2011 5:04 PM
To: kitfox-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: Re: Fw: Kolb-List: club planes?
Gentleman,
I am finding this thread particularly interesting. Without a two hour dissertation on the subject, please allow me to make a few points for us to ponder. These are just my opinions and probably don't count for much more than that.
I can agree that the FAA sometimes goes overboard, but it's usually in response to an external force. Maybe they are overpaid, but they are certainly not underworked. To the contrary, there are about 6,000 aviation safety inspectors in the FAA. Those folks cover every airline, every business, every certificate action, actually they work for everyone of us who wants to get something done within the system. I think when careful thought is given to the subject, isn't it possible that the workforce is spread pretty thin? I don't believe for a moment they are going out of there to find more work. It is clear they are paying more attention to us and maybe hindering our abilities to do some things. I think something or someone is ringing their bell and they are responding to that. The question to be addressed is what or who is getting their attention.
It's my opinion, and that of some others, that a portion of the problem lies with us - the pilots, the builders of experimental aircraft. Our safety record is abysmal. Compared to other GA activities we stand out - with a terrible record. For the past few years we, as a group, have been in denial about our safety record. The AOPA Nall report (less their atrocious commentary on the subject), and especially the stats as presented by Ron Wannttaja in Sport Aviation (checkout his article in the Jan 2011 edition) all depict the problem. We need to fix what's broke before the FAA is going to provide relief for expanding what we want to do.
IMHO our Tech Counselor and Flight Advisor Programs are currently underutilized, poorly promoted, and possibly ineffectual in their current state. As a segment of GA we have had tremendous growth and it's possible our programs have not kept up, or perhaps they are misdirected. Is it possible the boom in the kit industry has outpaced the safety programs? Safety should be our foremost thought, but I'm not sure it is. I am sure, that like a number of folks on this list, I have lost friends to stupid acts of airmanship and other deadly mistakes that could possibly have been avoided. Yes, these are experimental aircraft and things can go wrong, engines can quit, and mistakes can be made, but a good safety management system will reduce these tremendously. We need a strong system and strong people to fix the problems that exist.
To the FAA, this is their business. Congress holds then accountable for our safety record 'almost' as much as they do for the air carriers. When Congress is interested, trust me, the FAA sometimes starts to take draconian actions, that is until the alphabet groups weigh in and cooler heads prevail.
On the flip side, to us, members of EAA, it's personal - not business. Our friends are being injured or killed. Our mere existence is always in question because only we (and the FAA) really care. The general public sees us as the reason for air traffic delays and view us as rich guys, privileged and above others (pun intended) if you will. They don't give a flip about our freedoms. Our segment of aviation is not a right, it's a privilege and one that we have to earn with every flight. Our mistakes end up on the 6 o'clock news and make headlines. I think we are going to have to do better.
As we speak there are changes coming to the aforementioned programs and I'm hopeful that over time these will improve our safety record. But I don't think we can rely only on those programs. Each of us needs to find constructive ways to impart a safety culture in what we do and what others who share our passion do. I don't believe blaming the FAA will improve our lot and without a groundswell of a few million people pounding on their elected representatives, I think the FAA is here to stay. We do have some control over what form the FAA takes. If we're safe, responsible, and plan ahead, they will back off and go find something else to address. Most of them are not against us, in fact, many of them fly experimental aircraft and build aircraft just as we do. They are only responding to the pressures within the beltway of DC and the statistics that tend to drive the system.
I hope this doesn't come across as preaching, I mean it to be just a viewpoint. However, I would really like to hear some constructive ideas to fix any of the problems.
Rick Weiss
N39RW Series V Speedster, 912ULS
SkyStar S/N 1
Port Orange, FL
PS - in the spirit of complete disclosure, I am currently Chairman of the EAA Homebuilt Aircraft Council and a retired (1997) FAA senior manager/engineer/pilot. I will take your thoughts, comments, and ideas to the senior EAA managers and hopefully provide some useful input into the ultimate decision making process. Okay? That said, flame away:-)
On Feb 27, 2011, at 1:53 AM, Malcolm Brubaker wrote:
just a bit of history
Malcolm Brubaker
Michigan Sport
Pilot Repair
LSRM-A, PPC, WS
(989)513-3022
----- Forwarded Message ----
From: "Ron (at) KFHU" <captainron1(at)cox.net (captainron1(at)cox.net)>
To: kolb-list(at)matronics.com (kolb-list(at)matronics.com)
Sent: Sun, February 6, 2011 11:28:57 AM
Subject: Re: Kolb-List: club planes?
--> Kolb-List message posted by: "Ron (at) KFHU" <captainron1(at)cox.net (captainron1(at)cox.net)>
Well that's a good idea. Could certainly use it (My M3X) here in KFHU, it may even motivate me more to finish my project faster, which is 90% complete with 100% left to do kinda thing.
However ignoring the FAA in this equation is pretty much kicking the can down the road. I think in terms of movement there has to be a wide ranging recognition the the FAA is the problem in general aviation. Fearing the FAA or thinking in terms of compliance with FAA all the time as we do now is strangling aviation. If there is no concerted effort to truncate their pervasive intrusion into aviation; the contraction will continue.
I think I mentioned before that I almost never see young kids around taking flying lessons anymore. Its not because aviation has stopped firing up the imagination of the younger generation, its because the fun the freedom and the joy have been stomped out of flying by the FAA to an alarming degree. By all rights the Kolb factory should be busy and backlogged for orders, yet it is not happening. So the idea of a club to circumvent FAA rules is a valid and good, but it will not reverse the difficulty of being an aircraft owner aviator. The future is as it has always been in people owning their aircraft and plying the skies in freedom. I have yet to see an organization come about that makes it as its prime objective to restore freedom to aviate, by going after the source of the constraints. That is what we need most of all right now.
---- Malcolm Brubaker <brubakermal(at)yahoo.com (brubakermal(at)yahoo.com)> wrote:
=============
We had an interesting discussion on linkedin this weekend. All about flight
instruction and the idea of turning an experimental into a club plane so an
instructor could legally use it to teach the owners to fly. This theory is
viable and there is FAA approval to do this.
What I think would really jump start the process is a pre-developed general
format. One that would be easy for people to follow in developing their
own club and fractional ownership; not much different than the downloads a
person can buy to write their own will or start a non profit 401c3 corporation.
These always contain several disclaimers and liability waivers just like the
ones we used in the old days to teach ultralight flying.
This would help the ultralight pilot and sport pilot want-to-be, as well as the
instructor.
The idea of teaching someone to fly in a $14,000 plane with a 582 is not that
far fetched. We all know people that have. It seemes like a better option than
the $60,000 to $100,000 planes everyone thinks they currently need . When
a student becomes a licensed pilot they can transition up.
What this sport needs now is for people to stop focusing on the problem and
develope a solution. The ultralight trainer was so successful that it was
turned into a sport pilot plane; and that took 20 years. Even a 2 place Kolb
classic could qualify.
Malcolm Brubaker
Michigan Sport
Pilot Repair
LSRM-A, PPC, WS
(989)513-3022
________________________________
From: Pat Ladd <pj.ladd(at)btinternet.com (pj.ladd(at)btinternet.com)>
To: kolb-list(at)matronics.com (kolb-list(at)matronics.com)
Sent: Sat, February 5, 2011 10:45:06 AM
Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Kolb list: Pitot probe
Hi Mike,
<< I added my own extension>>
Nice neat job.
P==============
--
kugelair.com
01234567890123
4 [quote][b]
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cliffh(at)outdrs.net
Guest
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| Posted: Mon Feb 28, 2011 6:47 am Post subject: Kolb-List: club planes? |
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|
The FAA is now threatening to severly restrict flying radio controled model airplanes.
Floran Higgins
Helena Mt
Speedster
912ULS
[quote] ---
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lcfitt(at)sbcglobal.net
Guest
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| Posted: Mon Feb 28, 2011 9:25 am Post subject: Kolb-List: club planes? |
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|
Florin,
I have not followed this closely, but I think there are issues that have come forward that would require some additional scrutiny. The example I am thinking of are the RC commercial ventures that have arisen that use these airplanes with remotely controlled cameras for commercial aerial photography. They don't restrict themselves to the typical hobby strips that have been our mainstay for a generation or so, but will fly over cities at below FAA minimum heights for the purpose of taking pictures for commercial purposes. They fly where we do and my guess would be that they would be virtually invisible. Check this link to one in my immediate area. http://rcaerialphoto.com/ I Have flown RC and have strong feelings about the FAA impacting the typical RC hobby, but like most things, there are envelope pushers and that is often where the trouble starts. Put a camera in your model Citabria and soon tire of only getting pictures of the club field.
Lowell
From: floran higgins (cliffh(at)outdrs.net)
Sent: Monday, February 28, 2011 6:45 AM
To: kitfox-list(at)matronics.com (kitfox-list(at)matronics.com)
Subject: Re: Fw: Kolb-List: club planes?
The FAA is now threatening to severly restrict flying radio controled model airplanes.
Floran Higgins
Helena Mt
Speedster
912ULS
[quote] ---
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Pat Reilly
Joined: 06 Aug 2009
Posts: 345
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| Posted: Mon Feb 28, 2011 4:16 pm Post subject: Kolb-List: club planes? |
|
|
Mike, Thanks for the review. I wondered if anybody would catch the pun..... And, if you believe that, I do have the title to the Brooklyn bridge if your interested in purchasing it.
Pat Reilly
Mod 3 582 Rebuilt
Rockford, IL
On Sun, Feb 27, 2011 at 2:42 PM, Michael Gibbs <MichaelGibbs(at)cox.net (MichaelGibbs(at)cox.net)> wrote:
| Quote: | | Quote: | ...Most government rules and regulations are a parasitic drag on what ever the activity is they are involved in.
|
Looks like you're right...
Mike G.
N728KF, Kitfox IV-1200 Speedster
Phoenix, AZ |
--
Pat Reilly
Mod 3 582 Rebuild
Rockford,IL
[quote][b]
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