Matronics Email Lists :: View topic

Matronics Email Lists
Web Forum Interface to the Matronics Email Lists

Get Email Distribution Too! FAQ Search Memberlist Usergroups Register

Profile Log in to check your private messages Log in

fuel leak

Matronics Email Lists Forum Index -> RV10-List

View previous topic :: View next topic

Author Message

rwayne(at)gamewood.net
Guest

Posted: Sun Feb 27, 2011 2:07 pm Post subject: fuel leak

So, doing my first condition inspection and found a small fuel leak (big blue stain) at the inboard leading edge of my fuel tank. The sealant feels like putty. I had a quickbuild so the tanks were done so I have no proseal experience. How in the world do you fix something like this?

Thanks.

 

Wayne

 

  [quote][b]

ScooterF15

Joined: 19 Jun 2006
Posts: 136

Posted: Sun Feb 27, 2011 4:43 pm Post subject: fuel leak

Wayne,

 

I had a similar leaking rivet during my first annual on my quick build wings. I used green loctite 290 to seal it up. No problems now almost 4 years later.

 

My rivet was on the bottom, so I drained the fuel. Someone told me to put a little vacuum on the tank to help the Loctite get into the rivet, that sounded like a lot of work to do. I thought it was easier to put a little pressure on the outside, so I put a piece of rubber hose into a balloon and held that over the rivet to force some of the Loctite under the rivet. So I laid on my back under the wing for an hour or so and held it there. I also used a heat gun to help the Loctite dry. Then I probably let it sit for a couple weeks before filling the tank back up.

 

-Jim

N312JE 

 

From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Wayne Williams

Sent: Sunday, February 27, 2011 3:05 PM

To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com

Subject: fuel leak

 

So, doing my first condition inspection and found a small fuel leak (big blue stain) at the inboard leading edge of my fuel tank. The sealant feels like putty. I had a quickbuild so the tanks were done so I have no proseal experience. How in the world do you fix something like this?

Thanks.

 

Wayne

  	  Quote: 	
		    http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List 	
0 	  Quote: 	
		   	
1 	  Quote: 	
		   	
2 	  Quote: 	
		   	
3 	  Quote: 	
		   	
4 	  Quote: 	
		   	
5 	  Quote: 	
		   	
6 	  Quote: 	
		   	
7

  [quote][b]

Kelly McMullen

Joined: 16 Apr 2008
Posts: 1188
Location: Sun Lakes AZ

Posted: Sun Feb 27, 2011 4:43 pm Post subject: fuel leak

If the sealant is soft, it is bad. The bad sealant has to be removed, then replaced. Hard plastic or plexiglass scrapers to avoid damaging your aluminum. There is a solvent. It is slow acting. You probably are going to have to remove the tank to work on it and find the actual leak. I can get you the source of the solvent. For hand work the gel form is best.

 

On Sun, Feb 27, 2011 at 3:04 PM, Wayne Williams <rwayne(at)gamewood.net (rwayne(at)gamewood.net)> wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   

So, doing my first condition inspection and found a small fuel leak (big blue stain) at the inboard leading edge of my fuel tank. The sealant feels like putty. I had a quickbuild so the tanks were done so I have no proseal experience. How in the world do you fix something like this? 

Thanks.

 

Wayne 

 

   	  Quote: 	
		  



get="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List

tp://forums.matronics.com

_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution



	


	


#avg_ls_inline_popup{position: absolute;z-index: 9999;padding: 0px 0px;margin-left: 0px;margin-top: 0px;overflow: hidden;word-wrap: break-word;color: black;font-size: 10px;text-align: left;line-height: 130%;}  [quote][b]

_________________
Kelly McMullen
A&P/IA, EAA Tech Counselor
KCHD

bruce1hwjohnson(at)yahoo.
Guest

Posted: Sun Feb 27, 2011 4:48 pm Post subject: fuel leak

Join the club, The experts at Vans said the proseal gets gummy due to the exposure to air. So in their words, keep your tanks full. I scraped the proseal off and applied some two part epoxy to my leaking  rivets, but they were in the the area between the wing and cabin that is hidden from sight. Deem's said the course of action for visible leaks is putting the tanks under vacuum and letting some green loc-tite get sucked in. I did that and then added the epoxy, so not sure which worked but my blue stain had gone away. Mine were quick build too and both leaked at the the same location. Good luck. And for the vacuum I used my shop vac and it seemed to work well. Good Luck

  

 Bruce 151BJ 39 hrs  



 

   From: Wayne Williams <rwayne(at)gamewood.net>

To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com

Sent: Sun, February 27, 2011 3:04:49 PM

Subject: fuel leak



    

So, doing my first condition inspection and found a small fuel leak (big blue stain) at the inboard leading edge of my fuel tank. The sealant feels like putty. I had a quickbuild so the tanks were done so I have no proseal experience. How in the world do you fix something like this? 

Thanks. 

  

Wayne 

 

[quote][b][b]

dlm34077(at)q.com
Guest

Posted: Sun Feb 27, 2011 5:50 pm Post subject: fuel leak

Not a solution but questions. Do you allow  passengers to stand on any portion of the tank during loading? Did you remove  the QB tanks to install the stall warning?

 [quote]   ---

Kelly McMullen

Joined: 16 Apr 2008
Posts: 1188
Location: Sun Lakes AZ

Posted: Sun Feb 27, 2011 6:05 pm Post subject: fuel leak

If that is what the so-called experts told you, they simply don't know

what they are talking about, or are giving you a pacifying excuse with

no basis in fact. Pro-seal only gets gummy if it wasn't mixed and

cured correctly to start with, or was exposed long term to auto-gas.

There are many Mooneys no only with wet wing tanks, but with wet wing

aux tanks that are left empty most of the time. Current versions of

Pro-seal, or Flamemaster Chemseal do not need to be kept wet with

fuel. If that were true, your tanks would leak like a sieve the first

time you put fuel in them, since it likely will have been a year or

two from the sealing to the filling for first flight.



On Sun, Feb 27, 2011 at 5:44 PM, Bruce Johnson

<bruce1hwjohnson(at)yahoo.com> wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  

 Join the club, The experts at Vans said the proseal gets gummy due to the exposure to air. So in their words, keep your tanks full. I scraped the proseal off and applied some two part epoxy to my leaking  rivets, but they were in the the area between the wing and cabin that is hidden from sight. Deem's said the course of action for visible leaks is putting the tanks under vacuum and letting some green loc-tite get sucked in. I did that and then added the epoxy, so not sure which worked but my blue stain had gone away. Mine were quick build too and both leaked at the the same location. Good luck. And for the vacuum I used my shop vac and it seemed to work well. Good Luck



 Bruce 151BJ 39 hrs

_________________
Kelly McMullen
A&P/IA, EAA Tech Counselor
KCHD

Kelly McMullen

Joined: 16 Apr 2008
Posts: 1188
Location: Sun Lakes AZ

Posted: Sun Feb 27, 2011 6:16 pm Post subject: fuel leak

http://www.rpm-technology.com/PG300-AG_Gel.htm

Used a fair amount stripping and resealing a Mooney tank.  The

smallest container should be enough for your job. They do sell direct.

On Sun, Feb 27, 2011 at 5:40 PM, Kelly McMullen <apilot2(at)gmail.com> wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   If the sealant is soft, it is bad. The bad sealant has to be removed, then

 replaced. Hard plastic or Plexiglas scrapers to avoid damaging your

 aluminum. There is a solvent. It is slow acting. You probably are going to

 have to remove the tank to work on it and find the actual leak. I can get

 you the source of the solvent. For hand work the gel form is best.

 On Sun, Feb 27, 2011 at 3:04 PM, Wayne Williams <rwayne(at)gamewood.net> wrote:

>

> So, doing my first condition inspection and found a small fuel leak (big

> blue stain) at the inboard leading edge of my fuel tank. The sealant feels

> like putty. I had a quickbuild so the tanks were done so I have no proseal

> experience. How in the world do you fix something like this?

>

> Thanks.

>

> Wayne

>

>

_________________
Kelly McMullen
A&P/IA, EAA Tech Counselor
KCHD

rv10rob(at)gmail.com
Guest

Posted: Sun Feb 27, 2011 7:25 pm Post subject: fuel leak

Hey, at least they've heard of the problem this time.



 On Sun, Feb 27, 2011 at 6:02 PM, Kelly McMullen <apilot2(at)gmail.com (apilot2(at)gmail.com)> wrote:

  	  Quote: 	
		  --> RV10-List message posted by: Kelly McMullen <apilot2(at)gmail.com (apilot2(at)gmail.com)>

 

If that is what the so-called experts told you, they simply don't know

what they are talking about, or are giving you a pacifying excuse with

no basis in fact. Pro-seal only gets gummy if it wasn't mixed and

 cured correctly to start with, or was exposed long term to auto-gas.

There are many Mooneys no only with wet wing tanks, but with wet wing

aux tanks that are left empty most of the time. Current versions of

Pro-seal, or Flamemaster Chemseal do not need to be kept wet with

 fuel. If that were true, your tanks would leak like a sieve the first

time you put fuel in them, since it likely will have been a year or

two from the sealing to the filling for first flight.

 

On Sun, Feb 27, 2011 at 5:44 PM, Bruce Johnson

<bruce1hwjohnson(at)yahoo.com (bruce1hwjohnson(at)yahoo.com)> wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  

 Join the club, The experts at Vans said the proseal gets gummy due to the exposure to air. So in their words, keep your tanks full. I scraped the proseal off and applied some two part epoxy to my leaking  rivets, but they were in the the area between the wing and cabin that is hidden from sight. Deem's said the course of action for visible leaks is putting the tanks under vacuum and letting some green loc-tite get sucked in. I did that and then added the epoxy, so not sure which worked but my blue stain had gone away. Mine were quick build too and both leaked at the the same location. Good luck. And for the vacuum I used my shop vac and it seemed to work well. Good Luck

 >
	


 	  Quote: 	
		   Bruce 151BJ 39 hrs


	


  

 scription,

 www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List

 ronics.com/" target="_blank">http://forums.matronics.com

 Matt Dralle, List Admin.

 =====



	
 

-- 

Rob Kochman

RV-10 "Finishing" Kit

Woodinville, WA (near Seattle)

http://kochman.net/N819K

  [quote][b]

Albert Gardner

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 455
Location: Yuma, AZ

Posted: Mon Feb 28, 2011 7:31 am Post subject: fuel leak

Many builders tested their tanks using a water manometer to raise the pressure about 4”. You can use the same setup to instead draw a vacuum. Watch closely when drawing the vacuum so  that the tank does not distort.

Albert Gardner

N991RV

Yuma, AZ

 

   [quote][b]

_________________
RV-9A N872RV
RV-10 N991RV

bruce1hwjohnson(at)yahoo.
Guest

Posted: Mon Feb 28, 2011 2:15 pm Post subject: fuel leak

Kelly, I agree with you 100% but that is what they claimed. After that I just didn't ask them anymore questions. I went back and looked for the emails to post but I must have deleted them.

   From: Kelly McMullen <apilot2(at)gmail.com>

To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com

Sent: Sun, February 27, 2011 7:02:54 PM

Subject: Re: RV10-List: fuel leak

--> RV10-List message posted by: Kelly McMullen <apilot2(at)gmail.com (apilot2(at)gmail.com)>

If that is what the so-called experts told you, they simply don't know

what they are talking about, or are giving you a pacifying excuse with

no basis in fact. Pro-seal only gets gummy if it wasn't mixed and

cured correctly to start with, or was exposed long term to auto-gas.

There are many Mooneys no only with wet wing tanks, but with wet wing

aux tanks that are left empty most of the time. Current versions of

Pro-seal, or  Flamemaster Chemseal do not need to be kept wet with

fuel. If that were true, your tanks would leak like a sieve the first

time you put fuel in them, since it likely will have been a year or

two from the sealing to the filling for first flight.

On Sun, Feb 27, 2011 at 5:44 PM, Bruce Johnson

<bruce1hwjohnson(at)yahoo.com (bruce1hwjohnson(at)yahoo.com)> wrote:

 	  Quote: 	

 Join the club, The experts at Vans said the proseal gets gummy due to the exposure to air. So in their words, keep your tanks full. I scraped the proseal off and applied some two part epoxy to my leaking  rivets, but they were in the the area between the wing and cabin that is hidden from sight. Deem's said the course of action for visible leaks is putting the tanks under vacuum and letting some green loc-tite get sucked in. I did that and then added the epoxy, so not sure which  worked but my blue stain had gone away. Mine were quick build too and both leaked at the the same location. Good luck. And for the vacuum I used my shop vac and it seemed to work well. Good Luck

 Bruce 15nbsp;                    =======================

         [quote][b]

davidsoutpost(at)comcast.
Guest

Posted: Mon Feb 28, 2011 3:07 pm Post subject: fuel leak

I read all the time on this list and the VAF forum about problems with the fast build kits after they are received.   Granted, most are build correctly,,,, but what do you guy's expect from products built in third world countries from workers with questionable skills, chewing Khat and high as a kite making wages that aren't much better than a bowl of rice a day?   No way I would ever risk my life, let alone family or friends flying behind questionable quality, some of which can not even be examined when received. 



David Clifford



RV-10 Builder

Howell,  MI



   [quote]

[b]

Kelly McMullen

Joined: 16 Apr 2008
Posts: 1188
Location: Sun Lakes AZ

Posted: Mon Feb 28, 2011 4:49 pm Post subject: fuel leak

Well, if you go back to Van's website, the workers are supposedly

skilled and experienced. I would put any blame squarely on Van's

pinching pennies and letting his customers be his quality control

dept.

I quote from the website:

"How would you like to hire a team of experienced experts, with over a

thousand completed RV airframes on their resume, for twenty-five

weeks, eight hours a day?

They will build the first half of your kit, jigging and riveting about

75% of your metal airframe. They will do all the messy jobs, like

sealing the fuel tanks and priming to protect against corrosion. They

never leave a mess, make no noise, don’t need insurance and never want

to use your bathroom. When they leave, you will have only 800-1200

hours of work to finish the airplane.



And they work for about eight dollars an hour!



We don’t know anybody like that either, but we can tell you how to get

the result: Order a QuickBuild Kit."



As to defects, I spent around 10 days doing inspection, step by step

through the plans, annotating anything I wasn't satisfied with. I'm

picky after 30+ years working on certified planes and inspecting them

for their annuals.  Anything I didn't like I drilled out the rivets,

took out the part and fixed it right.  That is what the plans tell you

to do, Van's marketing hype aside.  Comparing the mistakes the QB had

vs what the average builder is going to do, is kind of a toss-up. So

it comes down to whether you want to blame yourself or Van's

subcontractor? If you think that because you built it yourself it is

safer to take your family in than the Quick build kits, you are

deluding yourself.

Kelly

fiberglass hell

A&P/IA



On Mon, Feb 28, 2011 at 4:04 PM,  <davidsoutpost(at)comcast.net> wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   I read all the time on this list and the VAF forum about problems with the

 fast build kits after they are received.   Granted, most are build

 correctly,,,, but what do you guy's expect from products built in third

 world countries from workers with questionable skills, chewing Khat and high

 as a kite making wages that aren't much better than a bowl of rice a day?

 No way I would ever risk my life, let alone family or friends flying behind

 questionable quality, some of which can not even be examined when received.



 David Clifford



 RV-10 Builder

 Howell,  MI

_________________
Kelly McMullen
A&P/IA, EAA Tech Counselor
KCHD

dlm34077(at)q.com
Guest

Posted: Mon Feb 28, 2011 7:12 pm Post subject: fuel leak

My aircraft contains QB wings (#24)and QB fuselage  (# . Now have 400TT. IIRC there was very little that I could not inspect. My  QB tanks do not leak. Your statements about foreign workers sounds right out of  a union management's playbook. I lived and worked outside the USA before  retirement and by far the most skilled craftsman in the Middle East and Far East  are the Phillipinos. Their work was "bought" by skilled Americans. We trusted  these foreign workers for a lot of complex and difficult tasks on projects a lot  more costly and important than these aircraft. I trust these foreign workers  enough to have purchased a new Honda Accord and a new Kia Forte.

  

 One only needs to look at the before and after  pictures of 1940s/2010s Hiroshima and Nagasaki, and Detroit  Hiroshima  and Nagasaki are modern cities and Detroit is abandoned shacks and burnt out  buildings. Google modern Detroit and modern Hiroshima. More depends on the  quality of administration than the perceived inadequacies of the  workforce.

  

 After seeing Kelly's post, the $8 an hour in the  Philippines equates to $16000 per year. The projected cost of $8 per hour  includes the construction, transportation, inspection and profit. The average wage in the Philippines is closer to $1 an hour.  If the workers are getting even $2 per hour they are doing quite  well. In 1980, Pilipino bus drivers in the Middle East were housed,  fed and medicated at no charge and received $1000 salary per month. They  were also performing domestic tasks for $5 per hour in their spare time.  When  a driver completed his  2 year contract, he went home with  $30k-$50k and lived quite well. Some started other  businesses. 

  

 As Kelly suggests inspect and fix if desired. In my  case there was very little to correct. The QB tanks don't leak but I did not  remove them to install a stall warning and passengers do not stand on the tanks.  The only thing I regret on the QB wings is the inability to install extra tanks  when under construction. I may yet install additional outboard  tanks.

  

  

  

 [quote]   ---

gengrumpy(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Mon Feb 28, 2011 8:03 pm Post subject: fuel leak

I echo Dave's comments on the QBs.  Mine came in 2005 and I have (thus far) have had no issues with them.  And the quality of both the wings and fuselage was outstanding!



grumpy

do not archive



On Feb 28, 2011, at 9:09 PM, DLM wrote:

[quote]My aircraft contains QB wings (#24)and QB fuselage (# . Now have 400TT. IIRC there was very little that I could not inspect. My QB tanks do not leak. Your statements about foreign workers sounds right out of a union management's playbook. I lived and worked outside the USA before retirement and by far the most skilled craftsman in the Middle East and Far East are the Phillipinos. Their work was "bought" by skilled Americans. We trusted these foreign workers for a lot of complex and difficult tasks on projects a lot more costly and important than these aircraft. I trust these foreign workers enough to have purchased a new Honda Accord and a new Kia Forte.

 

One only needs to look at the before and after pictures of 1940s/2010s Hiroshima and Nagasaki, and Detroit  Hiroshima and Nagasaki are modern cities and Detroit is abandoned shacks and burnt out buildings. Google modern Detroit and modern Hiroshima. More depends on the quality of administration than the perceived inadequacies of the workforce.

 

After seeing Kelly's post, the $8 an hour in the Philippines equates to $16000 per year. The projected cost of $8 per hour includes the construction, transportation, inspection and profit. The average wage in the Philippines is closer to $1 an hour. If the workers are getting even $2 per hour they are doing quite well. In 1980, Pilipino bus drivers in the Middle East were housed, fed and medicated at no charge and received $1000 salary per month. They were also performing domestic tasks for $5 per hour in their spare time. When  a driver completed his  2 year contract, he went home with $30k-$50k and lived quite well. Some started other businesses. 

 

As Kelly suggests inspect and fix if desired. In my case there was very little to correct. The QB tanks don't leak but I did not remove them to install a stall warning and passengers do not stand on the tanks. The only thing I regret on the QB wings is the inability to install extra tanks when under construction. I may yet install additional outboard tanks.

 

 

 

[quote]---

rleffler

Joined: 05 Nov 2006
Posts: 680

Posted: Tue Mar 01, 2011 2:20 am Post subject: fuel leak

â€œI trust these foreign workers enough to have purchased a new Honda Accord and a new Kia Forteâ€

 

While I canâ€™t speak for KIA, I can for the Honda Accord.Â  The Accord is built in Marysville, OH and built with a local workforce.Â Â  Many of the parts are also manufactured in the US, such as the engine, which is manufactured in Anna, OH.Â  The Accords built in Marysville are exported to over 100 countries, including Japan.Â Â  While I donâ€™t build cars for a living, I do work at Honda America Manufacturing at the Marysville location.Â  Thanks for buying a Honda.

 

Bob

Do Not Archive

 

From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of DLM

Sent: Monday, February 28, 2011 10:09 PM

To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com

Subject: Re: fuel leak

 

My aircraft contains QB wings (#24)and QB fuselage (# . Now have 400TT. IIRC there was very little that I could not inspect. My QB tanks do not leak. Your statements about foreign workers sounds right out of a union management's playbook. I lived and worked outside the USA before retirement and by far the most skilled craftsman in the Middle East and Far East are the Phillipinos. Their work was "bought" by skilled Americans. We trusted these foreign workers for a lot of complex and difficult tasks on projects a lot more costly and important than these aircraft. I trust these foreign workers enough to have purchased a new Honda Accord and a new Kia Forte.



 



One only needs to look at the before and after pictures of 1940s/2010s Hiroshima and Nagasaki, and Detroit  Hiroshima and Nagasaki are modern cities and Detroit is abandoned shacks and burnt out buildings. Google modern Detroit and modern Hiroshima. More depends on the quality of administration than the perceived inadequacies of the workforce.



 



After seeing Kelly's post, the $8 an hour in the Philippines equates to $16000 per year. The projected cost of $8 per hour includes the construction, transportation, inspection and profit. The average wage in the Philippines is closer to $1 an hour. If the workers are getting even $2 per hour they are doing quite well. In 1980, Pilipino bus drivers in the Middle East were housed, fed and medicated at no charge and received $1000 salary per month. They were also performing domestic tasks for $5 per hour in their spare time. When  a driver completed his  2 year contract, he went home with $30k-$50k and lived quite well. Some started other businesses. 



 



As Kelly suggests inspect and fix if desired. In my case there was very little to correct. The QB tanks don't leak but I did not remove them to install a stall warning and passengers do not stand on the tanks. The only thing I regret on the QB wings is the inability to install extra tanks when under construction. I may yet install additional outboard tanks.



 



 



 

[quote]

---

_________________
Bob Leffler
N410BL - Phase I
http://mykitlog.com/rleffler

bruce1hwjohnson(at)yahoo.
Guest

Posted: Tue Mar 01, 2011 12:36 pm Post subject: fuel leak

Didn't mean to get you all worked up about quickbuilds. It doesn't matter who dose the tanks, sometimes they leak. The only thing I am complaining about is Van's attitude and BS  about the proseal getting gummy when exposed to air. Go ahead and get back to you protesting in Wisconsin.

   From: "davidsoutpost(at)comcast.net" <davidsoutpost(at)comcast.net>

To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com

Sent: Mon, February 28, 2011 4:04:49 PM

Subject: Re: fuel leak

 p {margin:0;}  I read all the time on this list and the VAF forum about problems with the fast build kits after they are received.   Granted, most are build correctly,,,, but what do you guy's expect from products built in third world countries from workers with questionable skills, chewing Khat and high as a kite making wages that aren't much better than a bowl of rice a day?   No way I would ever risk my life, let alone family or friends flying behind questionable quality, some of which can not even be examined when received. 

David Clifford

RV-10 Builder

Howell,  MI

[quote]      [b][b]

Display posts from previous:

	Matronics Email Lists Forum Index -> RV10-List	All times are GMT - 8 Hours
Page 1 of 1

Jump to:

You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
You cannot attach files in this forum
You can download files in this forum