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engine failure over water

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elmar.h(at)shaw.ca
Guest

Posted: Sun Mar 06, 2011 8:34 am Post subject: engine failure over water

What would you do in the event of

an engine failure over open water?



Bail out or ditch the aircraft?



In the case of ditching, would the

NACA cowling on the Yaks/CJs stop

the plane dead and flip it over,

breaking the pilot's neck before

drowning?



cheers



Elmar

viperdoc(at)mindspring.co
Guest

Posted: Sun Mar 06, 2011 9:27 am Post subject: engine failure over water

Elmar,

Interesting question. The US Navy teaches in case of water ditching be prepared for the aircraft to end upside down. Cinch your seat belt and shoulder harness tightly, disconnect the headset, open the canopy, touch down at stall speed tail first, take a big breath, and expect to be inverted as well as confused. Remember, follow the air bubbles.

That is if you don't Jump. If I do I'm going to wish I had had the LPUs added to my harness.

Doc

yakplt(at)yahoo.com
Guest

Posted: Sun Mar 06, 2011 11:35 am Post subject: engine failure over water

And always remember to NEVER EVER fly in a Helicoptor under ANY circumstances!   



Mark Bitterlich 



--- On Sun, 3/6/11, Roger Kemp M.D. <viperdoc(at)mindspring.com> wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   From: Roger Kemp M.D. <viperdoc(at)mindspring.com>

 Subject: Re: engine failure over water

 To: "yak-list(at)matronics.com" <yak-list(at)matronics.com>

 Date: Sunday, March 6, 2011, 12:22 PM

 

 "Roger Kemp M.D." <viperdoc(at)mindspring.com>

 

 Elmar,

 Interesting question. The US Navy teaches in case of water

 ditching be prepared for the aircraft to end upside down.

 Cinch your seat belt and shoulder harness tightly,

 disconnect the headset, open the canopy, touch down at stall

 speed tail first, take a big breath, and expect to be

 inverted as well as confused. Remember, follow the air

 bubbles.

 That is if you don't Jump. If I do I'm going to wish I had

 had the LPUs added to my harness.

 Doc

 

 

 

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GreasySideUp

Joined: 24 Oct 2007
Posts: 44

Posted: Sun Mar 06, 2011 10:11 pm Post subject: Re: engine failure over water

Over water above 1k I am out of the airplane 100% of the time.  With that said I spent a hundred bucks on a C02 inflatable life preserver that fits very comfortable under my chute even during negative g aerobatics.  Bailing out, I am guaranteed to live minus a very rare chute malfunction.  Ditching is iffy at best (Again if anyone has ditch statistics that would be awesome)  The best case would be that the plane stayed upright and floated.  Worst case is that it flipped and sank and I fumbled to get my chute off.



I fly over the Chesapeake bay quite regularly.  I fly as high as I can to leave plenty of time to coordinate for rescue over the radio and I note where the boats are and what direction they are heading.  My plan is to glide to a spot where I would drift down in the path of someone that may see me in the chute.  Average chutes fall at about 1000 feet/min, getting out at a higher altitude would probably give the boater a little more time to see your chute.



If you fly regularly over the water with a chute but without a 100 dollar LPU (Life Preserver Unit) you may need to re-evaluate.  While you are reading this, go to Sportys and place an order and it will be here in a few days.  Treading water with full clothing on - I give most non swimmers about 5 minutes or 1/4 mile from shore to live.  You can extend that by taking your jeans off, tying a knot in the leg and blowing them up for flotation.  In that case you may want to take your chances ditching.  If you ditch I would add undoing your chute straps to the checklist above so you have one less thing to worry about.



In the silk on the way down, think about trying your cell phone.  Call 911 if you have a signal.  Don't drop it.  Leave it on, select speaker and put it back in your flight suit pocket at around 1000 feet so you can start thinking about landing.  



Again, this is technique only.  The bottom line is to have a plan involving a decision matrix that you know you will follow.  The time to think about how you will ditch or bail out is right now, not at 2k over trees with a windmilling prop.  A massive fire is probably the easiest decision to make, unless you are over water without a life preserver. Then it is going to be a short ride to think that you should have called sportys for that LPU while you are in the silk.



Yes I have thought about this a little.....



Brief the plan and fly the brief.



-j

dabear(at)devere.us
Guest

Posted: Mon Mar 07, 2011 6:25 am Post subject: engine failure over water

I agree with much of what you said, and as you state, its up to the

individual to make their plan.  But at least make a plan.



I fly over the Chesapeake frequently as well.  But typically can't get high

because of the SFRA.  I've got the LPU and a survival vest.  Using both

under the chute is not very comfortable, but is not too bad.  I've gotten

lax it using both or either depending on the situation.  I'm going to have

to re-look at the layout.



The vest has strobe, small survival kit (matches, space blanket, food bar,

etc.), portable aviation radio, SPOT Sat tracker, and Glock 20c when legal.

I go back and forth between using the vest and stuffing everything in the

pockets of the flight suit as its more comfortable that way.



That said, If I lose the engine at lower altitudes over the Chesapeake I

plan on a zoom climb and a bail out.  I don't plan on ditching in the water.



Bear



--

William Halverson

Joined: 27 Feb 2010
Posts: 88

Posted: Mon Mar 07, 2011 6:35 am Post subject: engine failure over water

Do emergency locator beacons have a manual 'on' position?  



And don't forget squak code 7700

+--

viperdoc(at)mindspring.co
Guest

Posted: Mon Mar 07, 2011 7:01 am Post subject: engine failure over water

Answer: Yes they do require manually activating the becaon.

Another personal survival item to add to your checklist before you step. If you wear a flight suit, after you stuff all of whatever you like to fly with in it make sure to zip the pockets. Especially the leg pockets. I've seen many a person walking to their planes with the ankle (leg) pockets hanging wide open. With the pockets open they can catch on things you would not think as you try to rapidly egress from the cockpit. 

The besides things can fall out of them during acro is a no brainer. For the same reason I have pax empty thier pockets before flying.

Doc



 	  Quote: 	
		  

Do emergency locator beacons have a manual 'on' position?

aerostar6

Joined: 26 Jun 2008
Posts: 33
Location: Amersham, UK

Posted: Thu Mar 10, 2011 1:25 am Post subject: Re: engine failure over water

In all this discussion about bailing out rather than ditching, no-one has mentioned the likelihood of drowning in the canopy.



I'm not ex-military, but am sure that nearly all milspec chutes (in the UK) have a central quick release box QRB which doctrine requires to be released as your feet hit the water, instantly shedding the canopy.



I have a Strong 304 chute which has 2 snap fastenings and 2 leg pass throughs to get rid of before shedding the harness and being able to inflate my life vest.



Over the years my personal choice for extended water crossings (made a few to Europe and back from UK) has been to sit on the chute with the harness unfastened with plan A being to ditch and shrug out of the chute as I go over the side. Figure my odds better than bailing and getting the harness off whilst in the water before the canopy drags me down.



Thoughts?

viperdoc(at)mindspring.co
Guest

Posted: Thu Mar 10, 2011 6:47 am Post subject: engine failure over water

That was why the discussion by Josh included the comment about LPUs (life

preserver units). Mil spec LPUs compensate for the added wt of the harness

and chute on initial water entry. Since we have the luxury of coke fittings

that rapidly release you from the harness that is not an issue of being drug

down by a parachute that is still attached to the harness. Wearing a horse

shoe C02 activated collar that is not part of the harness would make it

easier to separate from the harness on water entry. The next issue you quit

possibly would face is entanglement in the chute cords as the chute itself

will likely float on the surface before sinking if you are still in the

harness and wearing a LPU. The key is not to panic. Search for a seam and

pull yourself along under that seam until you clear the chute. Don't kick

your feet since that can farther entangle your feet in the risers and

parachute cords.

Strong will install a mil spec horse shoe collar on your chute similar to

the ones that are found on military harnesses for a fee. Carry a knife with

a serrated edge on so you can cut yourself free of the risers if necessary. 

Since we are on the topic of water parachute entries, once in  the water

there is a risk of the chute remaining inflated and pulling you along. If

that happens cross your arms over the risers if you are face down in the

water and roll onto your back. Once on your back, bend your legs at the

knees to pull them down to use you heels as a drag in the water to slow

yourself down as you are being pulled along. Also raise your head and tuck

your chin on your chest to use the back of your head (helmet if wearing one)

as a keel to push water away from you nose and mouth while you release the

chest and crotch fittings to free yourself from the harness. Would not free

myself from the harness if my LPU is attached to my harness though. I would

start sawing away on the risers to release the chute from my harness.

Before Water Entry Checklist:

Mask Off, visor up, check canopy, 4 line jettison if no lines over canopy,

LPUs deploy, seat pack deploy, 100 feet above surface turn into the wind,

eyes on horizon, knees slightly bent, feet together, feel feet touch water

fall to posterior side of hips and flank. You don't release the coke

fittings until in the water.

Doc



--

aerostar6

Joined: 26 Jun 2008
Posts: 33
Location: Amersham, UK

Posted: Thu Mar 10, 2011 1:02 pm Post subject: Re: engine failure over water

But I repeat, if you are not milspec equipped with Koch fasteners............

GreasySideUp

Joined: 24 Oct 2007
Posts: 44

Posted: Thu Mar 10, 2011 4:46 pm Post subject: Re: engine failure over water

This is the life preserver I use. http://www.sportys.com/PilotShop/product/15003



What Doc Said....



The chute will not sink for a while if at all.  Everything the Doc said is what they are teaching in survival school.  To pile on, if the chute lands on top of you the key is to still swim to the surface and get your cranium above the water.  The chute will drape over your nugget but you will be able to breathe just fine.  It is a lot lighter material than a blanket, it will allow light through and you will be able to lift it up easily.  Like the doc said, find a seam in the chute and start pulling along that seam keeping your nugget out of the water the whole time.  Eventually you will find the edge of the chute and be clear.  If you panic and pull in random directions you will never reach the end.  Be patient, pick one seam only and keep following it to the end.  If you reach the middle of the chute, it sucks you went the wrong way but at least you know you are half way there.  If there is any wind at all, the chute will most likely fall past where you landed.  To put it this way, if you were water skiing with a life jacket on, you fell and I threw a sheet over you - you would still float.  Your head would be above the water and you would be mad there was a sheet over you.  You would lift the sheet up and start pulling it off.  If you did not have a life jacket on this process would be much more difficult as you would be treading water at the same time but it would still be possible.  If you tried to grab ahold of it and swim underneath it, the process would become much more difficult.  



My plan is to inflate the LPU on the way down, before I hit the water so I know I will be buoyant. Once I hit water, I'll worry about clearing the chute first and then once clear, releasing the leg and chest fittings on the chute and I'll get rid of the entire harness.   



Even without the military fittings, if being drug by the chute I'll release the chest strap first and then the leg straps and I should slide right out of the entire harness.  



Again, the key is not to panic, get to the surface and breath.  The chute will not drag you to the bottom of the ocean right away but you can drown if you panic and don't push it out of the way with your hand.  At water survival, these things floated for a while with no signs of sinking.  There were a lot of people who were scared the chute was going to take them to the bottom of the ocean until they swam under it and realized it was no big deal if they didn't panic.  You can breath the entire time and if you start at the very edge of the chute it takes about 30 seconds to a minute to be clear.



-j

Steve Geard

Joined: 09 Dec 2013
Posts: 36

Posted: Fri Apr 11, 2014 3:55 am Post subject: Re: engine failure over water

What about landing inverted, then the plane will flip right side up when it digs in !!!             OK, so bail it is then.

_________________
SteveO

colin mcgeachy

Joined: 25 Sep 2013
Posts: 9
Location: Ottawa, Ontario

Posted: Fri Apr 11, 2014 4:44 am Post subject: engine failure over water

Your comments reminded me of Neil Williams Zlin crash. Just incredible flying.

http://www.aerobatics.org.uk/repeats/zlin_wing_failure.htm

  

Colin

C-FTGZ



On 11 April 2014 07:56, Steve Geard <stevegeard(at)xtra.co.nz (stevegeard(at)xtra.co.nz)> wrote:

  [quote]--> Yak-List message posted by: "Steve Geard" <stevegeard(at)xtra.co.nz (stevegeard(at)xtra.co.nz)>

   

 What about landing inverted, then the plane will flip right side up when it digs in !!! Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  Â  OK, so bail it is then.

 

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 SteveO

 

 

 

 

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Colin (C-FTGZ)

motoadve

Joined: 23 Apr 2009
Posts: 123
Location: Seattle

Posted: Sat Jul 06, 2019 6:29 am Post subject: Re: engine failure over water

What scares me about jumping is hitting the plane, and get incapacitated.

With this high survival rate of ditching in GA, is the chute still better?



https://www.avweb.com/flight-safety/technique/ditching-old-wives-tales/

_________________
www.Backcountry182.com
Cessna 182 P
CJ -6

Clouddog

Joined: 02 Jun 2016
Posts: 119
Location: Lebanon, TN

Posted: Sat Jul 06, 2019 8:59 am Post subject: engine failure over water

I have put a 15 foot lanyard on my chute. If I am incapacitated, the lanyard opens the chute. If you decide to land in the water or off field, make sure you remember to lock OPEN the canopies. If u end up upside down, it weren't be pretty trying to get out and doubt you will.



On Sat, Jul 6, 2019, 09:35 motoadve <motoadve(at)racsa.co.cr (motoadve(at)racsa.co.cr)> wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		  --> Yak-List message posted by: "motoadve" <motoadve(at)racsa.co.cr (motoadve(at)racsa.co.cr)>

 

 What scares me about jumping is hitting the plane, and get incapacitated.

 With this high survival rate of ditching in GA, is the chute still better?

 

 https://www.avweb.com/flight-safety/technique/ditching-old-wives-tales/

 

 --------

 www.Backcountry182.com

 Cessna 182 P

 CJ -6

 

 

 

 

 Read this topic online here:

 

 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=490075#490075

 

 

 

 

 

 

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cjpilot710(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Sun Jul 07, 2019 10:05 am Post subject: engine failure over water

To me you would find a lot of variables in both situations.  Using the parachute the problem is 

 1 getting out of the seat. 

 2 possibility of hitting the airframe on the way out. 

 3 The chute working properly. 

  4 The terrain, trees, rocks, that type of thing on Landing in the chute.  Getting out of a chute harness in the water is a whole different and very important undertaking.  There are plenty of WW II stories the pilots and crew members drowning in their chute's harness. 

With ditching the problem is 

 1 Sea conditions, which way the waves / swell are movind Etc.

  2. Then of course touching down at the wrong attitude.

 3 Then either too fast or too slow. 

 During our yearly checks at Pan Am the instructors would spend a good day just on ditching procedures in the emergency class.  Case in point you do not land into the wind when ditching.   

In both situations you would want to have a life vest of some kind. Plus try to get nearby a boat. 

 You hoped that point you have somebody with a presence of mind to come and give you a hand instead of watching your demise with his cell phone. 

Sent from AOL Mobile Mail 

On Saturday, July 6, 2019 motoadve <yak-list(at)matronics.com> wrote:

--> Yak-List message posted by: "motoadve" <motoadve(at)racsa.co.cr (motoadve(at)racsa.co.cr)>



What scares me about jumping is hitting the plane, and get incapacitated.



With this high survival rate of ditching in GA, is the chute still better?



https://www.avweb.com/flight-safety/technique/ditching-old-wives-tales/



--------



www.Backcountry182.com



Cessna 182 P



CJ -6



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motoadve

Joined: 23 Apr 2009
Posts: 123
Location: Seattle

Posted: Sun Jul 07, 2019 10:34 am Post subject: Re: engine failure over water

I fly in the PNW and the over water flying I do is between islands, if taking the chute land in the water and get hypothermia , or stay in the plane glide to the closest piece of land and hopefully be in enough good shape and not injured to swim to shore, I am a swimmer this is why I give this more hope.

Knock on wood none of this is ever needed but better to have a plan , than making decisions while having an emergency.

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