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fuel pressure problem, urgent
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europapa

Joined: 30 Aug 2010
Posts: 63

Posted: Fri Apr 01, 2011 2:35 am Post subject: fuel pressure problem, urgent

Hello,



my Europa classic TRG is standing in the workshop due to powerloss in take off.

The guys there found the pressure gage showing the wrong pressure so it was hard to localize the problem.

The fuel pressure is way to low.

They checked the pumps but they are ok.

They think itÂ´s a problem with the fuel return.

Now the ask my whether I removed the restictor jet but of coarse I have not.

Where is this restictor located?

Have you got any other ideas?



Thanks a lot



Juergen

g-iani(at)ntlworld.com
Guest

Posted: Fri Apr 01, 2011 4:03 am Post subject: fuel pressure problem, urgent

Juergen



If you have a 914 it does not have a restrictor in the return line.



If you have a 912 or 912S the restrictor would be inside the pipe at the "T"

were the return line starts



Hope this helps

Ian Rickard G-IANI XS Trigear, 300hours

Europa Club Mods Specialist

e-mail g-iani(at)ntlworld.com

gregoryf.flyboy(at)comcas
Guest

Posted: Fri Apr 01, 2011 4:57 am Post subject: fuel pressure problem, urgent

When they checked the fuel pumps, did that include a fuel flow measurement

through the fuel filter (i.e. is the fuel filter ok?)

Is the fuel pressure regulator ok, or properly adjusted? 



--

europapa

Joined: 30 Aug 2010
Posts: 63

Posted: Fri Apr 01, 2011 6:45 am Post subject: Re: fuel pressure problem, urgent

I is a 912s and the mechanics just bypassed the filters with no difference.

They have no idea what to do next.

How hard can it be?

Any further suggestions?



Juergen

kevinmarie(at)blueyonder.
Guest

Posted: Fri Apr 01, 2011 7:36 am Post subject: fuel pressure problem, urgent

Blockage from the tank? I have had this. 



Kevin

On 1 Apr 2011, at 15:45, "europapa" <jubu(at)onlinehome.de> wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   

 

 I is a 912s and the mechanics just bypassed the filters with no difference.

 They have no idea what to do next.

 How hard can it be?

 Any further suggestions?

 

 Juergen

 

 

 

 

 Read this topic online here:

 

 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=335763#335763

wdaniell(at)etb.net.co
Guest

Posted: Fri Apr 01, 2011 7:55 am Post subject: fuel pressure problem, urgent

I had a pump (mechanical)go on my 912 apparently they don't go often.  they

sound as if they are broken if they are - duh - if that makes sense.

Will



--

gregoryf.flyboy(at)comcas
Guest

Posted: Fri Apr 01, 2011 11:28 am Post subject: fuel pressure problem, urgent

Along with the output of the tank, run a wire through the air breather vent,

to make sure it is clear. Either one of these can cause your symptom. 



--

Remi Guerner

Joined: 14 Dec 2010
Posts: 284

Posted: Sat Apr 02, 2011 1:10 am Post subject: Re: fuel pressure problem, urgent

Jurgen,

Possible causes of a low fuel pressure can be clogged filters, a blocked fuel tank vent,  a blocked tank output or a blocked fuel line, a defective  mechanical fuel pump, a blocked mechanical fuel pump, the restrictor missing in the return line.   

This is what I suggest to determine the cause

1. Clogged filters : obviously you have eliminated this possible cause

 2. Blocked fuel tank vent : try with the fuel cap removed

3. Blocked tank output or blocked fuel line: disconnect the hose at the mechanical pump and perform a fuel flow test with the electrical pump : with a well charged battery, you should get about 100-110 liters per hour.

4. Failed mechanical fuel pump : with the electrical pump turned on, the fuel pressure should be around 4 PSI and the engine should run ok. I suppose you have done that already, so this is probably not the cause.

5. Blocked mechanical fuel pump :   bypass the mechanical pump and turn on the electrical pump and see what fuel pressure you get.

6. restrictor missing in the return line : this is very unlikely unless it has never been installed. I know one Europa which flew without it for years (yes, with a 912S). So double check it.

I hope that helps.

Regards

Remi Guerner

F-PGKL

europapa

Joined: 30 Aug 2010
Posts: 63

Posted: Sun Apr 03, 2011 3:14 am Post subject: Re: fuel pressure problem, urgent

Thank you Remi for this useful list.

The mechanics from the workshop insist itÂ´s all about fuel pressure.

But how hard can it be to verify this?

I will take my Europa home and check it with patience step by step.



Juergen

grahamsingleton(at)btinte
Guest

Posted: Sun Apr 03, 2011 7:49 am Post subject: fuel pressure problem, urgent

Juergen

You might need to replace your mechanics, a lot of them don't understand Rotax. Check the bleed back restrictor is correctly installed, particularly check also that the bleed back is after the mechanical fuel pump.

Graham

From: europapa <jubu(at)onlinehome.de>

To: europa-list(at)matronics.com

Sent: Sunday, 3 April, 2011 12:14:54

Subject: Re: fuel pressure problem, urgent

-->  Europa-List message posted by: "europapa" <jubu(at)onlinehome.de (jubu(at)onlinehome.de)>

Thank you Remi for this useful list.

The mechanics from the workshop insist itÂ´s all about fuel pressure.

But how hard can it be to verify this?

I will take my Europa home and check it with patience step by step.

Juergen

Read this topic online here:

http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=335911#335========================http://www.matronics.com======================== [quote][b]

kheindl(at)msn.com
Guest

Posted: Sun Apr 03, 2011 10:41 am Post subject: fuel pressure problem, urgent

Jürgen,



You may already have done this, but the first thing to check is the fuel flow to the engine. You disconnect

the fuel hose from the mechanical pump, and then , with the electric pump on, you pump fuel for 30 seconds into a container. From that you compute the fuel flow . If it looks good, then the problem will either be the mechanical pump or in the fuel lines to the carbs, or the return line.

Cheers,

Karl

Date: Sun, 3 Apr 2011 16:46:03 +0100

From: grahamsingleton(at)btinternet.com

Subject: Re: Europa-List: Re: fuel pressure problem, urgent

To: europa-list(at)matronics.com



   .ExternalClass DIV {;}  Juergen

You might need to replace your mechanics, a lot of them don't understand Rotax. Check the bleed back restrictor is correctly installed, particularly check also that the bleed back is after the mechanical fuel pump.

Graham

From: europapa <jubu(at)onlinehome.de>

To: europa-list(at)matronics.com

Sent: Sunday, 3 April, 2011 12:14:54

Subject: Re: fuel pressure problem, urgent



-->  Europa-List message posted by: "europapa" <jubu(at)onlinehome.de (jubu(at)onlinehome.de)>



Thank you Remi for this useful list.

The mechanics from the workshop insist itÂ´s all about fuel pressure.

But how hard can it be to verify this?

I will take my Europa home and check it with patience step by step.



Juergen





Read this topic online here:



http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=335911#335========================http://www.matronics.com========================



    

 [quote]



" face="courier new,courier">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List

http://forums.matronics.com

="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution



[b]

Roland

Joined: 30 Nov 2009
Posts: 334
Location: EDLE

Posted: Sun Apr 03, 2011 11:26 am Post subject: Re: fuel pressure problem, urgent

JÃ¼rgen,

I agree with Graham. You have to go to a Rotax specialist. If you are located in West Germany I can recommend Cycloon Holland in Venlo. They know a lot about Rotax.

Good luck!

Roland

[quote="grahamsingleton(at)btinte"]Juergen

You might need to replace your mechanics, a lot of them don't understand Rotax. Check the bleed back restrictor is correctly installed, particularly check also that the bleed back is after the mechanical fuel pump.

Graham

From: europapa <jubu>

To: europa-list(at)matronics.com

Sent: Sunday, 3 April, 2011 12:14:54

Subject: Re: fuel pressure problem, urgent



-->  Europa-List message posted by: "europapa" <jubu>



Thank you Remi for this useful list.

The mechanics from the workshop insist itÂ´s all about fuel pressure.

But how hard can it be to verify this?

I will take my Europa home and check it with patience step by step.



Juergen





Read this topic online here:



http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=335911#335========================http://www.matronics.com========================  	  Quote: 	
		  [b]

sldpileit(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Tue Apr 05, 2011 7:13 am Post subject: fuel pressure problem, urgent

I had a similar problem and it turned out to be a baffle that had broke off in the muffler.  It was covering the exhaust pipe inside the muffler.  Turns out my muffler was only tack welded during the manufacturing.  Bottom line it caused a power loss at take off, the idle was fine.  As I understand it there was a few of the mufflers put out during the early 2000's. I got my kit in or around 2001. Take a long screwdriver and stick it up the exhaust pipe. If the baffle is loose and laying over the exhaust you'll know it. Good luck.

    

   Scott L. Dingman

   N108EA (120 HRS)

 

 

   

 

 

   --

europapa

Joined: 30 Aug 2010
Posts: 63

Posted: Tue Apr 05, 2011 1:00 pm Post subject: Re: fuel pressure problem, urgent

Scott, I will check this too, thank you.

To all:

It seams that my problem isn't that urgent any more:

The only mechanic of the workshop that is experienced with the 912s isn't there this week and my employee quit her job so the real live takes my whole attention now.

Thank you all for your kind support I will keep you up to date next week.



Juergen

tennant

Joined: 19 Apr 2011
Posts: 121

Posted: Tue Apr 19, 2011 10:58 am Post subject: Re: fuel pressure problem, urgent

Hi Juergen,



Did you solve the problem? If so please let us know.



I had a similar problem several years ago & could not find the cause until I fitted a clear plastic pipe to the end of one of the carb connector pipes and saw that about 30 percent of what was getting to the carbs was air instead of petrol. 

For some reason if the rubber pipes are shot air gets into the system quicker than fuel gets out!!



Where is the plane now?



Barry Tennant

_________________
Barry Tennant
D-EHBT
At EDLM - Germany

europapa

Joined: 30 Aug 2010
Posts: 63

Posted: Tue Apr 19, 2011 11:32 am Post subject: Re: fuel pressure problem, urgent

Hi Berry,



the problem is not solved yet.

The mechanics could not find the restrictor they think it has been flooded into the tank!?

So I ordered a new one but I am leery.



Juergen

grahamsingleton(at)btinte
Guest

Posted: Tue Apr 19, 2011 1:41 pm Post subject: fuel pressure problem, urgent

Juergen

seems that was your problem. Block the return pipe completely and test run the engine. It should run normally.

That will confirm the diagnosis

Graham



From: europapa <jubu(at)onlinehome.de>

To: europa-list(at)matronics.com

Sent: Tuesday, 19 April, 2011 20:32:22

Subject: Re: fuel pressure problem, urgent



--> Europa-List message posted by: "europapa" <jubu(at)onlinehome.de (jubu(at)onlinehome.de)>



Hi Berry,



the problem is not solved yet.

The mechanics could not find the restrictor they think it has been flooded into the tank!?

So I ordered a new one but I am leery.



Juergen





Read this topic online here:



http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=337524#337524



p;                 -Matt Dralle, Libution" =======



    

 [quote][b]

europapa

Joined: 30 Aug 2010
Posts: 63

Posted: Thu May 05, 2011 1:28 pm Post subject: Re: fuel pressure problem, urgent

a brief update:



yesterday I got my Europa back as repaired.

They said they test flyed it and everything has been OK.

My attempt ended after 3 minutes with an other forced landing.

(Looks like I'm getting used to it).

I went angry and together with an mechanic of the workshop we tried to localize the prob step by step.

The fuel pressure was sometimes good, sometimes to low and sometimes just not existent, without having changed anything.

After tree hours we suddenly had nearly no pass through the hose from the electrical fuel pump to the mechanical pump.

The hose is "delaminating" on the inside and is so more or less affecting the fuel flow. This inconsistency of the blockage made it that hard to understand.

Now I have got an question concerning the choice for the right tube.

The builder used half the way a rubber tube which is coated with stainless steel fabric. This hose is followed by a rubber hose with a thicker wall  (that goes through the firewall ).

I myself hate those many useless junctions between different hoses, not knowing what they are good for.

Is there a good reason why I cant use the "stainless steel" hose from the tank all the way to the mechanical pump? 

Hope you could understand what I'm trying to say in my poor English.



Juergen

kheindl(at)msn.com
Guest

Posted: Thu May 05, 2011 1:57 pm Post subject: fuel pressure problem, urgent

Juergen,



I don't think anyone ever had that kind of a problem before. Is there not an engine/airframe logbook from the previous owner ? It should have information about fuel hose changes.

Anyway, many owners use fuel injection hose from your local autoparts store, 6 or 8mm internal diameter as needed. Forget about the steel braiding. Replace at least all sections which have the same type as the defective hose. It is quite easy.

Karl

 	  Quote: 	
		   Subject: Re: fuel pressure problem, urgent

 From: jubu(at)onlinehome.de

 Date: Thu, 5 May 2011 14:28:37 -0700

 To: europa-list(at)matronics.com

 

 --> Europa-List message posted by: "europapa" <jubu(at)onlinehome.de>

 

 a brief update:

 

 yesterday I got my Europa back as repaired.

 They said they test flyed it and everything has been OK.

 My attempt ended after 3 minutes with an other forced landing.

 (Looks like I'm getting used to it).

 I went angry and together with an mechanic of the workshop we tried to localize the prob step by step.

 The fuel pressure was sometimes good, sometimes to low and sometimes just not existent, without having changed anything.

 After tree hours we suddenly had nearly no pass through the hose from the electrical fuel pump to the mechanical pump.

 The hose is "delaminating" on the inside and is so more or less affecting the fuel flow. This inconsistency of the blockage made it that hard to understand.

 Now I have got an question concerning the choice for the right tube.

 The builder used half the way a rubber tube which is coated with stainless steel fabric. This hose is followed by a rubber hose with a thicker wall  (that goes through the firewall ).

 I myself hate those many useless junctions between different hoses, not knowing what they are good for.

 Is there a good reason why I cant use the "stainless steel" hose from the tank all the way to the mechanical pump? 

 Hope you could understand what I'm trying to say in my poor English.

 

 Juergen

 

 

 

 

 Read this topic online here:

 

 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=339041#339041

 

 

  Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ,

&gt========================

Brian Davies

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 124
Location: uk

Posted: Fri May 06, 2011 2:18 am Post subject: fuel pressure problem, urgent

I agree with Karl.  Stick to what is recommended by Europa (basically auto fuel injection hose), cover it with Firesleeve forward of the firewall, and don't forget to save the fuel restrictor buried in the fuel return line if you replace that one. In the UK it is recommended that all rubber hoses are changed every five years.  

 

Regards

 

Brian Davies

 

From: owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Karl Heindl

Sent: 05 May 2011 22:55

To: europa-list(at)matronics.com

Subject: RE: Re: fuel pressure problem, urgent

 

Juergen,

 



I don't think anyone ever had that kind of a problem before. Is there not an engine/airframe logbook from the previous owner ? It should have information about fuel hose changes.



Anyway, many owners use fuel injection hose from your local autoparts store, 6 or 8mm internal diameter as needed. Forget about the steel braiding. Replace at least all sections which have the same type as the defective hose. It is quite easy.



 



Karl





 	  Quote: 	
		   Subject: Re: fuel pressure problem, urgent

 From: jubu(at)onlinehome.de (jubu(at)onlinehome.de)

 Date: Thu, 5 May 2011 14:28:37 -0700

 To: europa-list(at)matronics.com (europa-list(at)matronics.com)

 

 --> Europa-List message posted by: "europapa" <jubu(at)onlinehome.de (jubu(at)onlinehome.de)>

 

 a brief update:

 

 yesterday I got my Europa back as repaired.

 They said they test flyed it and everything has been OK.

 My attempt ended after 3 minutes with an other forced landing.

 (Looks like I'm getting used to it).

 I went angry and together with an mechanic of the workshop we tried to localize the prob step by step.

 The fuel pressure was sometimes good, sometimes to low and sometimes just not existent, without having changed anything.

 After tree hours we suddenly had nearly no pass through the hose from the electrical fuel pump to the mechanical pump.

 The hose is "delaminating" on the inside and is so more or less affecting the fuel flow. This inconsistency of the blockage made it that hard to understand.

 Now I have got an question concerning the choice for the right tube.

 The builder used half the way a rubber tube which is coated with stainless steel fabric. This hose is followed by a rubber hose with a thicker wall (that goes through the firewall ).

 I myself hate those many useless junctions between different hoses, not knowing what they are good for.

 Is there a good reason why I cant use the "stainless steel" hose from the tank all the way to the mechanical pump? 

 Hope you could understand what I'm trying to say in my poor English.

 

 Juergen

 

 

 

 

 Read this topic online here:

 

 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=339041#339041

 

 

 Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ,

========================


	


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