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Jabiru vs. Rotax

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kevann(at)gotsky.com
Guest

Posted: Sat Apr 16, 2011 12:22 pm Post subject: Jabiru vs. Rotax

You are comparing a Jabiru to the turbocharged Rotax, which is more of an 

"apples to oranges" comparison. Better to compare with the 912 and 912s.

And I think a 914 is close to 30,000 USD. The Jab is going to use far more 

fuel than a Rotax. I find that on average the 914 in my Monowheel is using 5 

GPH. The cost of fuel is going to go up and up.

I am wondering what a Jab 6 cyl is using per hour?



Kevin

---

AirEupora

Joined: 01 Nov 2009
Posts: 186
Location: Dixon, CA

Posted: Sun Apr 17, 2011 9:41 am Post subject: Re: Jabiru vs. Rotax

You are right Kevin.  Trying to compare a Jabiru to a Rotax 912 or 914 is like comparing Apples and Oranges.  Both taste good.  



The Jabiru will use a little over one gallon more per hour so it will cost me $5.00 more an hour to operate.  If I get to fly 100 hour this coming year it will cost me $500.00 dollars this year over your cost for fuel.  I can still divide that into the initial cost firewall forward.



I looked on the web pages today and Rotax 912ULS is 21K plus the cost of firewall forward vs. 18K for everything on the Jabiru.  



Rick Stockton

grahamsingleton(at)btinte
Guest

Posted: Sun Apr 17, 2011 11:21 am Post subject: Jabiru vs. Rotax

Rick

there's a lot of good experience out there for you to benefit from. (I don't have much) 

I recommend a good engine monitor with 6 EGTs and 6 CHTs, Mixture distribution is tricky and important.

Graham



From: AirEupora <AirEupora(at)sbcglobal.net>

To: europa-list(at)matronics.com

Sent: Sunday, 17 April, 2011 18:41:04

Subject: Re: Jabiru vs. Rotax



--> Europa-List message posted  by: "AirEupora" <AirEupora(at)sbcglobal.net (AirEupora(at)sbcglobal.net)>



You are right Kevin.  Trying to compare a Jabiru to a Rotax 912 or 914 is like comparing Apples and Oranges.  Both taste good.  



The Jabiru will use a little over one gallon more per hour so it will cost me $5.00 more an hour to operate.  If I get to fly 100 hour this coming year it will cost me $500.00 dollars this year over your cost for fuel.  I can still divide that into the initial cost firewall forward.



I looked on the web pages today and Rotax 912ULS is 21K plus the cost of firewall forward vs. 18K for everything on the Jabiru.  



Rick Stockton





Read this topic online here:



http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=337229#337========================http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Eurp;  -->

fklein(at)orcasonline.com
Guest

Posted: Sun Apr 17, 2011 5:53 pm Post subject: Jabiru vs. Rotax

 	  Quote: 	
		   The Jabiru will use a little over one gallon more per hour so it  

 will cost me $5.00 more an hour to operate.


	


Rick,



	To anyone with or contemplating a Jab for their Europa, I can't think  

of a better resource than archived europa-list posts by John Lawton.  

As I recall, he's posted better performance figures than Bud mentions.  

John's been to Jabiru school and has a Rotax maintenance certification  

as well inasmuch as he regularly flys a motorglider w/ a Rotax in  

addition to his Jabbed Europa trigear.



	He's also very generous with his time to discus issues and his  

experiences w/ both engines...and quite satisfied w/ his Europa  

installation...I believe his engine has mechanical lifters. I was very  

interested in the Jab (with a fairly complete FWF kit) before the  

demise of Suncoast Aviation.



	As some of you know, I've proceeded to install a 140 hp MPEFI'd Sube  

variant I bought from RAM Performance Ltd which comes w/ a PSRU from  

N. Zealand, Airtex fuel pump, and a plug-n-play ECU. Cost was  $16.5k  

USD. Spent almost a year designing and fabricating mounting frame,  

cooling & exhaust systems, cowls, remote oil filter/cooler and adding  

sensors for a compatible EMS. The proof will be in the pudding, but I  

hope to join Glenn Crowder who regularly flies his 125 hp carburated  

Sube powered Classic out of his home field at 5000' ASL in Colorado.



	Stay tuned,



	Fred

	A194

tonyrenshaw268(at)gmail.c
Guest

Posted: Sun Apr 17, 2011 7:14 pm Post subject: Jabiru vs. Rotax

Hey Graham,

Why 6 EGTs and CHTs?? 

(Hope this finds you and Joan well.)

Reg

Tony Renshaw

On 18/04/2011, at 5:17 AM, GRAHAM SINGLETON <grahamsingleton(at)btinternet.com (grahamsingleton(at)btinternet.com)> wrote:



[quote]Rick

there's a lot of good experience out there for you to benefit from. (I don't have much) 

I recommend a good engine monitor with 6 EGTs and 6 CHTs, Mixture distribution is tricky and important.

Graham



From: AirEupora <AirEupora(at)sbcglobal.net (AirEupora(at)sbcglobal.net)>

To: [url=mailto:europa-list(at)matronics.com]europa-list(at)matronics.com (europa-list(at)matronics.com)[/url]

Sent: Sunday, 17 April, 2011 18:41:04

Subject: Europa-List: Re: Jabiru vs. Rotax



--> Europa-List message posted  by: "AirEupora" <[url=mailto:AirEupora(at)sbcglobal.net]AirEupora(at)sbcglobal.net (AirEupora(at)sbcglobal.net)[/url]>



You are right Kevin.  Trying to compare a Jabiru to a Rotax 912 or 914 is like comparing Apples and Oranges.  Both taste good.  



The Jabiru will use a little over one gallon more per hour so it will cost me $5.00 more an hour to operate.  If I get to fly 100 hour this coming year it will cost me $500.00 dollars this year over your cost for fuel.  I can still divide that into the initial cost firewall forward.



I looked on the web pages today and Rotax 912ULS is 21K plus the cost of firewall forward vs. 18K for everything on the Jabiru.  



Rick Stockton





Read this topic online here:



http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=337229#337========================http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Eurp;  --> [/url]



[url=http://www.matronics.com/contribution]

    

  	  Quote: 	
		  



===================================

courier new,courier">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List

===================================

ums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com

===================================

http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/contribution

===================================



	


[b]

frans(at)privatepilots.nl
Guest

Posted: Mon Apr 18, 2011 5:40 am Post subject: Jabiru vs. Rotax

On 04/16/2011 10:18 PM, Kevin Klinefelter wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   

 

 You are comparing a Jabiru to the turbocharged Rotax, which is more of

 an "apples to oranges" comparison. Better to compare with the 912 and 912s.

 And I think a 914 is close to 30,000 USD. The Jab is going to use far

 more fuel than a Rotax. I find that on average the 914 in my Monowheel

 is using 5 GPH.


	


I fly my 914, on a heavy hi-top tri-gear, is using about 16 l/h (about 4

GPH) for cruising at 120 knots.



Frans

frans(at)privatepilots.nl
Guest

Posted: Mon Apr 18, 2011 5:55 am Post subject: Jabiru vs. Rotax

On 04/17/2011 07:41 PM, AirEupora wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   

 

 You are right Kevin.  Trying to compare a Jabiru to a Rotax 912 or 914 is like comparing Apples and Oranges.  Both taste good.  


	


Has the Jab a turbo?



 	  Quote: 	
		   The Jabiru will use a little over one gallon more per hour so it will cost me $5.00 more an hour to operate.


	


Make it two gallon per hour. That's 10 dollar per hour. And not to

mention that with a turbo you will be able to fly higher and benefit

from a higher true airspeed, further reducing the fuel required for a trip.



Lower fuel consumption means not only cheaper in operations, but also

the ability to fly longer legs without refueling, or just a saving in

fuel weight if you just fill her up for a certain time of flying.



 	  Quote: 	
		    If I get to fly 100 hour this coming year it will cost me $500.00 dollars this year over your cost for fuel.


	


That's really short term calculating. Let's say the airplane plus its

engine will see a service life of 1500 hours. Then the jab has consumed

$15000 more than the Rotax (ignoring the fact that the fuel prices will

go up). Indeed over the service life of the airplane even a 914 with

turbo is cheaper than a jab. Not to mention the selling price which is

clearly higher for a 914 than for a jabiru, if you ever choose to sell

your airplane.



That was about money. Now think about performance. Or maybe you plan to

fly only close to the sea level and the higher altitude performance

hasn't a significant meaning to you.



You liked to compare against a 914. A 912 is significantly more

affordable and consumes about the same amount of fuel as a 914. With a

912 you actually gain a lot of money over the service life compared to a

Jabiru.



Just some thoughts. (I don't care what you install in your airplane, but

I hope you are seeing the whole picture. It would be a shame if the

project you invested so much of your time in is going to disappoint to.

Apparently quite some people got very frustrated with their Jabiru, and

some even converted to a Rotax 914 and wasted the money of their Jab.

Now let's do the calculation again...)



Frans

AirEupora

Joined: 01 Nov 2009
Posts: 186
Location: Dixon, CA

Posted: Mon Apr 18, 2011 6:23 am Post subject: Re: Jabiru vs. Rotax

Just after I receive the kit I started looking at looking at engines.  I had just finished building a plane with an engine that was to big for the plane.  I wanted only to build accordance with the manufactures recommendations.  The original Eurpora had an 80HP Rotax, but I think all pilot's are like Tim Allen, "MORE POWER"!  I have a speed sheet of all the numbers.  TBO, MPG, HP, Torque, speed, price, two blade, three blade, constant speed, ground adjustable.  I used this forum and read all the remarks.  I drove to San Diego and looked at a Subaru installation.  That scared me.  I had just gone through putting a bigger engine on an airframe and I wanted firewall forward no changes.  I looked at 120 vs. 115 HP then the prices.  I read about the problems so I knew going in I would need a good EFIS system to monitor the engine.  I choose the MGL Voyager.  I can monitor the six cylinders and record the flight information during testing.  I knew that Jabiru had made a lot of changes to the engine from when Graham had tried it.  There were larger fins now, hydraulic lifters and a couple of things that help.  Again, PRICE.  One thing I liked about the Jabiru was the KISS principle.  I get to fly my plane for forty hours.  Surely, I can figure out my problems during that time frame.  I will be flying during the hottest time here in California so I have to make it right quickly.  Hopefully, I make to OSH this year.  Iâ€™m looking forward to see a lot of you there.

gcrowder2

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 136
Location: Golden, Colorado USA

Posted: Mon Apr 18, 2011 7:05 am Post subject: Jabiru vs. Rotax

Just gitterdun buddy - you're in for a treat!  6 yrs down the road and it still runs like a raped ape!  No regrets except for getting the cooling

 system to work but you have handled that nicely I believe.

  

                                                                        Glenn

  

 > From: fklein(at)orcasonline.com

[quote] To: europa-list(at)matronics.com

 Subject: Re: Re: Jabiru vs. Rotax

 Date: Sun, 17 Apr 2011 18:49:06 -0700

 

 --> Europa-List message posted by: Fred Klein <fklein(at)orcasonline.com>

 

 > The Jabiru will use a little over one gallon more per hour so it 

 > will cost me $5.00 more an hour to operate.

 

 Rick,

 

 To anyone with or contemplating a Jab for their Europa, I can't think 

 of a better resource than archived europa-list posts by John Lawton. 

 As I recall, he's posted better performance figures than Bud mentions. 

 John's been to Jabiru school and has a Rotax maintenance certification 

 as well inasmuch as he regularly flys a motorglider w/ a Rotax in 

 addition to his Jabbed Europa trigear.

 

 He's also very generous with his time to discus issues and his 

 experiences w/ both engines...and quite satisfied w/ his Europa 

 installation...I believe his engine has mechanical lifters. I was very 

 interested in the Jab (with a fairly complete FWF kit) before the 

 demise of Suncoast Aviation.

 

 As some of you know, I've proceeded to install a 140 hp MPEFI'd Sube 

 variant I bought from RAM Performance Ltd which comes w/ a PSRU from 

 N. Zealand, Airtex fuel pump, and a plug-n-play ECU. Cost was $16.5k 

 USD. Spent almost a year designing and fabricating mounting frame, 

 cooling & exhaust systems, cowls, remote oil filter/cooler and adding 

 sensors for a compatible EMS. The proof will be in the pudding, but I 

 hope to join Glenn Crowder who regularly flies his 125 hp carburated 

 Sube powered Classic out of his home field at 5000' ASL in Colorado.

 

 Stay tuned,

 

-========================

 

 

 

 		 	   		     	  Quote: 	
		  [b]

grahamsingleton(at)btinte
Guest

Posted: Mon Apr 18, 2011 3:11 pm Post subject: Jabiru vs. Rotax

Can't argue with your logic Frans. You are right again.

Graham

From: Frans Veldman <frans(at)privatepilots.nl>

To: europa-list(at)matronics.com

Sent: Monday, 18 April, 2011 14:53:24

Subject: Re: Re: Jabiru vs. Rotax

--> Europa-List message posted by: Frans Veldman <frans(at)privatepilots.nl (frans(at)privatepilots.nl)>

On 04/17/2011 07:41 PM, AirEupora wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   --> Europa-List message posted by: "AirEupora" <AirEupora(at)sbcglobal.net (AirEupora(at)sbcglobal.net)>

 You are right Kevin.  Trying to compare a Jabiru to a Rotax 912 or 914 is like comparing Apples and Oranges.  Both taste good.  

Has the Jab a turbo?

 	  Quote: 	
		   The Jabiru will use a little over one gallon more per hour so it will cost me $5.00 more an hour to operate.

Make it two gallon per hour. That's 10 dollar per hour. And not to

mention that with a turbo you will be able to fly higher and benefit

from a higher true airspeed, further reducing the fuel required for a trip.

Lower fuel consumption means not only cheaper in operations, but also

the ability to fly longer legs without refueling, or just a  saving in

fuel weight if you just fill her up for a certain time of flying.

 	  Quote: 	
		    If I get to fly 100 hour this coming year it will cost me $500.00 dollars this year over your cost for fuel.

That's really short term calculating. Let's say the airplane plus its

engine will see a service life of 1500 hours. Then the jab has consumed

$15000 more than the Rotax (ignoring the fact that the fuel prices will

go up). Indeed over the service life of the airplane even a 914 with

turbo is cheaper than a jab. Not to mention the selling price which is

clearly higher for a 914 than for a jabiru, if you ever choose to sell

your airplane.

That was about money. Now think about performance. Or maybe you plan to

fly only close to the sea level and the higher altitude performance

hasn't a significant meaning to you.

You liked to compare against a 914. A 912 is significantly more

affordable and consumes about  the same amount of fuel as a 914. With a

912 you actually gain a lot of money over the service life compared to a

Jabiru.

Just some thoughts. (I don't care what you install in your airplane, but

I hope you are seeing the whole picture. It would be a shame if the

project you invested so much of your time in is going to disappoint to.

Apparently quite some people got very frustrated with their Jabiru, and

some even converted to a Rotax 914 and wasted the money of their Jab.

Now let's do the ca href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List" target="_blank">p;                 -Matt Dralle, Libution" =======

 [quote][b]

kevann(at)gotsky.com
Guest

Posted: Mon Apr 18, 2011 5:11 pm Post subject: Jabiru vs. Rotax

" Hopefully, I make to OSH this year.  Iâ?Tm looking forward to see a lot 

of you there."

I hope to make it to OSH this year too... Hope to see you there with your 

new plane!



Kevin

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