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Racing Battery Lithium

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richard.churchill-coleman
Guest

Posted: Wed May 11, 2011 12:23 pm Post subject: Racing Battery Lithium

Hi All   

I've just come across a new Lithium battery for aircraft which is made by Racing Batteries (UK based) and being marketed by Skydrive UK (advertised on P31 of Light Aviation this month - RBA-300).  The price is slightly eye watering (£200 for the current model which has about 300 cranking amps and about 5 Ah capacity) but the weight is phenomenal at 1.1kg, so that in theory running two in parallel (or waiting for its more expensive big brother that is on its way, apparently) would still result in huge weight savings over even the odyssey AGM-technology range.  

I've had a quick chat with Skydrive UK and they say a handful of these are in use in UK in kit aircraft with Rotax four strokes, despite the low capacity compared with the (Europa manual) recommended minimum capacity of 17 Ah.  Does anyone know about or has seen any of these installations or can offer an opinion on whether (price aside) the battery would seem to be adequate for our Europas?  

Richard C-C  

G-RPCC  

Mono with 912S      [quote][b]

graeme bird

Joined: 15 Jul 2010
Posts: 434

Posted: Wed May 11, 2011 12:56 pm Post subject: Re: Racing Battery Lithium

sounds good, I have an Odyssey PC310 fitted which is 2.7kg, its 8Ah and has a cranking current of 310 Amps. I have had one in my C42 for a couple of years and its been great even in the coldest conditions and adequate current delivery.

Mine cost Â£115 if I recall, but 1.6Kg is worth having.

_________________
Graeme Bird
kit4 (Wagstaff) TBD
Kit3 G-CLXU (Gregory) mono 914 xs Woodcomp
Kit2 G-PATS - (kesterton) Mono Classic 912 warpdrive
Kit 1 G-UMPY - Mono Classic/XS 912S, Woodcomp G(@)gdbmk.co.uk

fklein(at)orcasonline.com
Guest

Posted: Wed May 11, 2011 1:00 pm Post subject: Racing Battery Lithium

On May 11, 2011, at 1:17 PM, Richard Churchill-Coleman wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  

Does anyone know about or has seen any of these installations or can offer an opinion on whether (price aside) the battery would seem to be adequate for our Europas? 	




Richard,

I have no personal experience w/ Lithium batteries but there has been a recent and very extensive discussion of them on the Matronics AeroElectric-List which may be of value to you.

Let us know if you go for one (or two) of these eye-watering babies,

Fred

 [quote][b]

trevpond(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Wed May 11, 2011 1:10 pm Post subject: Racing Battery Lithium

Hi Guys

Ok for new build but not quite a natural 

replacement for a Red Top unless it has a

Lump of lead strapped to it to keep your

C of G!!

Regards

Trev Pond 

G-LINN



Sent from my iPhone 



On 11 May 2011, at 21:17, "Richard Churchill-Coleman" <richard.churchill-coleman(at)sky.com (richard.churchill-coleman(at)sky.com)> wrote:



[quote]    

Hi All   

I've just come across a new Lithium battery for aircraft which is made by Racing Batteries (UK based) and being marketed by Skydrive UK (advertised on P31 of Light Aviation this month - RBA-300).  The price is slightly eye watering (Â£200 for the current model which has about 300 cranking amps and about 5 Ah capacity) but the weight is phenomenal at 1.1kg, so that in theory running two in parallel (or waiting for its more expensive big brother that is on its way, apparently) would still result in huge weight savings over even the odyssey AGM-technology range.  

I've had a quick chat with Skydrive UK and they say a handful of these are in use in UK in kit aircraft with Rotax four strokes, despite the low capacity compared with the (Europa manual) recommended minimum capacity of 17 Ah.  Does anyone know about or has seen any of these installations or can offer an opinion on whether (price aside) the battery would seem to be adequate for our Europas?  

Richard C-C  

G-RPCC  

Mono with 912S       	  Quote: 	
		  



===================================

 href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List

===================================

ums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com

===================================

http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/contribution

===================================



	


[b]

jan_de_jong(at)casema.nl
Guest

Posted: Wed May 11, 2011 1:10 pm Post subject: Racing Battery Lithium

There was some discussion about LiFePO4 batteries very recently on the 

Aeroelectric forum - see there. Bob Nuckols does not encourage.



The main possible problem seems to me that the 4 series cells do not 

balance well.

The batteries are sold as "compatible with normal alternator operation" 

but that is probably not all that true.

1. Charging voltage should be 14.5 or 14.6 V - not 13.8 V - for full 

charge of all cells.

2. Severe imbalance can destroy the cell that reaches 100% SOC first 

when the battery is charged .

3. There are balancing chargers for LiFePO4 batteries that can rebalance 

cells offline.



I designed a "monitor and top-equalizer" (see attached) that would 

probably allow me to use a LiFePO4 battery. Not first on my list yet.

I have been looking at the "Shorai" batteries (google). Prices in US$ 

reasonable



Jan de Jong

#461 (another 20 year project)

monteq4.pdf

Description:

Download

Filename:

monteq4.pdf

Filesize:

64.18 KB

Downloaded:

282 Time(s)

pjlevi(at)gmail.com
Guest

Posted: Wed May 11, 2011 1:20 pm Post subject: Racing Battery Lithium

I actually bought one of these batteries from Skydrive in UK at £199 at recent event at Popham. It is indeed very small and weighs only 1 kg. I have a Europa monowheel classic and, like you, was thinking of the weight saving compared to the standard battery. However, when I subsequently discussed it with Pete Jefferies he worked out the amended weight and balance and discovered that the moment was such that the 3 or 4 kg. weight saving altered the balance to such an extent that it would have effectively restricted the a/c to a single seater!  He said it would never get LAA approval for installation in my Europa, so I still have it unused and left the old battery in place. So, I advise you to  check the weight & balance before buying it!Philip LeviG-BWWB

Sent from my BlackBerry® wireless deviceFrom:  "Richard Churchill-Coleman" <richard.churchill-coleman(at)sky.com> 

Sender:  owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com 

Date: Wed, 11 May 2011 21:17:33 +0100

To: <europa-list(at)matronics.com>

ReplyTo:  europa-list(at)matronics.com

Subject: Europa-List: Racing Battery Lithium

Hi All   

I've just come = across a new Lithium battery for aircraft which is made by Racing = Batteries (UK based) and being marketed by Skydrive UK (advertised on = P31 of Light Aviation this month - RBA-300).  The price is slightly = eye watering (=A3200 for the current model which has about 300 cranking = amps and about 5 Ah capacity) but the weight is phenomenal at 1.1kg, so = that in theory running two in parallel (or waiting for its more = expensive big brother that is on its way, apparently) would still result = in huge weight savings over even the odyssey AGM-technology = range.  

I've had a quick = chat with Skydrive UK and they say a handful of these are in use in UK = in kit aircraft with Rotax four strokes, despite the low capacity = compared with the (Europa manual) recommended minimum capacity of 17 = Ah.  Does anyone know about or has seen any of these installations = or can offer an opinion on whether (price aside) the battery would seem = to be adequate for our Europas?  

Richard C-C  

G-RPCC  

Mono with = 912S      [quote][b]

frans(at)privatepilots.nl
Guest

Posted: Wed May 11, 2011 1:28 pm Post subject: Racing Battery Lithium

On 05/11/2011 10:56 PM, graeme bird wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   sounds good, I have an Odyssey PC310 fitted which is 2.7kg, its 8Ah

 and has a cranking current of 310 Amps.


	


Yep, I have two of these babies in my Europa. I have two fully separated

electrical systems (two alternators, two batteries) but use only one

system for starting. I have added a cross-over switch to tie both buses

(and batteries) together but I have never needed it. 8Ah is good enough

for starting.



However, if you have a 914 (like I have) you need the battery to keep

the fuel pump running in case of an alternator failure. In that case 8Ah

is way too small. So either you have to get a larger battery or

eliminate the single failure point by installing an additional

alternator. The latter is what I did and needless to say that both fuel

pumps are fed from a seaparate electrical bus.



When I designed this system I looked into the Lithium thing, but at that

time I decided that it was not reliable enough. Problem is the difficult

way of charging a Lithium battery, you can not just connect it to the

electrical bus like a lead-acid battery but need a very sophisticated

charge controller. Charge it wrong (a charger failure will do), and the

battery will explode or catch fire. This also happens if you puncture

the battery (like during a crash landing) There are plenty of you-tube

movies showing exploding lithium batteries.

Common advice is to keep Lithium batteries in a safety shell. But of

course this compromises the weight savings. With the dedicated charge

controller plus safety shell there might not be much weight saving left.



So I would recommend to use a PC310. It is safe, reliable, uncomplicated

and well tested.



Frans

graeme bird

Joined: 15 Jul 2010
Posts: 434

Posted: Wed May 11, 2011 1:47 pm Post subject: Re: Racing Battery Lithium

The point about the C of G is an interesting one, I can see why if you have saved weight you cant alter the c of g by adding a smaller weight at the tail to re adjust. I have put my battery on the firewall as there is a saving in copper feeding the starter and the 912 needs high starting current which is not helped by long cables (both +ve and negative). Also I dont have the extended bagage bay with battery slot.

jan_de_jong(at)casema.nl
Guest

Posted: Wed May 11, 2011 2:06 pm Post subject: Racing Battery Lithium

Hi Frans,



I know that LiCoO2, LiMn2O4 and Li(NiCo)O2 batteries are prone to 

catching fire and even exploding.

I would be very interested in any evidence anywhere of LiFePO4 batteries 

catching fire or exploding.

They are not supposed to do that.



Jan de Jong

pjlevi(at)gmail.com
Guest

Posted: Wed May 11, 2011 2:35 pm Post subject: Racing Battery Lithium

I actually bought one of these batteries from Skydrive in UK at £199. It is indeed very small and weighs 1 kg. 



I have a Europa monowheel classic and, like you, was thinking of the weight saving compared to the standard battery. However, when I  discussed it with Pete Jefferies he worked out the amended weight and balance and discovered that the moment was such that the 3 or 4 kg. weight saving altered the balance to such an extent that it would have effectively restricted the a/c to a single seater!  He said it would never get LAA approval for installation in my Europa, so I still have it unused and left the old battery in place. So, I advise you to  check the weight & balance before buying it!



Philip Levi

G-BWWB

Sent from my BlackBerry® wireless device



--

richard.churchill-coleman
Guest

Posted: Wed May 11, 2011 10:17 pm Post subject: Racing Battery Lithium

Thanks to everyone for  all your comments - sounds very much like I need to get the build close to  finished and then assess my CG before I can decide both on battery location and  weight requirements - and then see if the charger issue has been overcome with  this battery type.

  

 RCC



   From: owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com  [mailto:owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of  pjlevi(at)gmail.com

Sent: 11 May 2011 23:31

To:  europa-list(at)matronics.com

Subject: Re: Racing Battery  Lithium

 

I actually bought one of these batteries from Skydrive in UK at £199.  It is indeed very small and weighs 1 kg. 



I have a Europa monowheel  classic and, like you, was thinking of the weight saving compared to the  standard battery. However, when I discussed it with Pete Jefferies he worked out  the amended weight and balance and discovered that the moment was such that the  3 or 4 kg. weight saving altered the balance to such an extent that it would  have effectively restricted the a/c to a single seater! He said it would never  get LAA approval for installation in my Europa, so I still have it unused and  left the old battery in place. So, I advise you to check the weight &  balance before buying it!



Philip Levi

G-BWWB   [quote][b]

frans(at)privatepilots.nl
Guest

Posted: Wed May 11, 2011 10:26 pm Post subject: Racing Battery Lithium

On 05/12/2011 12:02 AM, Jan de Jong wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   I know that LiCoO2, LiMn2O4 and Li(NiCo)O2 batteries are prone to

 catching fire and even exploding.

 I would be very interested in any evidence anywhere of LiFePO4 batteries

 catching fire or exploding.


	


Ok. When I was building the system these LiFeP04 batteries were just

starting to show up, but not suitable for airplane use yet for some

reason (I believe they have/had weird voltages). If they can withstand

unbalanced charging without exploding then of course it invalidates part

of my reservations.



Frans

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