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Flapperons

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Pat Reilly

Joined: 06 Aug 2009
Posts: 345

Posted: Tue May 10, 2011 3:12 pm Post subject: Flapperons

Kitfoxers, I have a question about my Mod 3 flapperon setting. I was shown how the mod 3 and earlier flapperon flaps deployed reduces alieron ability. What flapperon deployment do you mod 3 and earlier drivers use on landing? The fellow that called this to my attention said not to deploy flapperons for landing because of the loss of alieron roll. I also had an instructor that said not to deploy Kitfox alierons on landing, "it really causes nose down attitude". He didn't explain why though otheer than the nose down comment.  Deploying full flapperons to decrease stall speed and ground speed on landing seemed beneficial for landing to me. And, I didn't notice the loss of alieron roll.   

-- 

Pat Reilly

Mod 3 582 Rebuild

Rockford,IL

  [quote][b]

WurlyBird

Joined: 16 May 2008
Posts: 207
Location: North Pole, Alaska

Posted: Sat May 14, 2011 4:48 pm Post subject: Re: Flapperons

Here is what I remember about my flap use; flaps do not reduce roll authority as much as most people say.  That is as long as you realizes that because of the increased back stick to accomodate that forward pitch puts the stick much farther into your crotch.  If you know you have to move your legs and maybe your behind a little she will still fly.  



You can land with full flaps applied but the speed change is not normally worth the added effort of flying the ailerons with your hips (see previous statement).  It is also worth noting that it seems most people including me can not get a KF 3 or earlier to 3 point with full flaps.  However if you go full aft on the stick and make a nice round out I have found that you can make a pretty nice landing by reducing flaps applied to make her settle down and 3 point, she will stay on the ground at least if you continue to take off flaps.  



Regardless of how I land I LOVE making an approach with full flaps. And if I have full flaps I am probably also in a forward slip, like I said the ailerons still work.  This plane glides like a brick in this config and you can land anywhere!  I recommend doing a bunch of slips at altitude with various flap settings and working your speed down to a stall. It is important to know that you rudder will stall before your wing does, if not you are wandering into spin territory.



For normal operations though I set the flaps at about 1" from the front and just leave it there. As much fun as they are to play with if you are flying around "normally" you don't need them. 1" for me makes the pitch pressure neutral at about 65-70 mPh.  So pull back to take off and then push forward for the rest of the flight, boy I can't wait to play with the HKS and it's broad power curve.



It took my buddy and I a few hours to realize that to pull the elevator all the way up requires the stick to be all the way back in your crotch.  This is always important  (with my CG) but becomes critical when playing with flaps. If you don't want to bounce you had better be full back on the stick.  Do every landing a little different and you will feel her out pretty quick.

_________________
James
Kitfox 3 / 582 / 70" IVO 2 blade GA
50 hrs on the 582 swapping for HKS 700E and Avid Cowl.

dave

Joined: 22 Sep 2006
Posts: 1382

Posted: Sun May 15, 2011 5:11 am Post subject: Flapperons

You guys are both flying mod 3? 

  

 The flapperons when using "flaps" is really limited  compared to a Model 4 --  about 15% more chord and More deflection on the  IV. 

 Mine go a full 33" down when " full are applied.  Really useful for busting loose outta mud or off of glassy water. for landing  over 20 degrees there is no advantage but  your roll control is  limited.

 Some builder will limit the travel of flapperons on  IV model but they end up losing some short field performance this way.  

  

 Iv has 2 to 1 differential built in and that gives  a vast improvement in Adverse yaw that ou get from the Mod 1,2 and  3s.

  

 Dave

  

  

 [quote]   ---

_________________
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davestapa

Joined: 13 Mar 2007
Posts: 30
Location: Woodstock, GA

Posted: Sun May 15, 2011 6:51 pm Post subject: Flapperons

Is anyone else getting 50+copies of Wurlybird e-mails? 

C. David Estapa

Woodstock, Georgia



--

_________________
C. David Estapa
Woodstock, GA
S5TD N97DE

Randy

Joined: 31 Mar 2011
Posts: 1

Posted: Sun May 15, 2011 7:14 pm Post subject: Flapperons

..nope

 

 > From: davestapa(at)juno.com

[quote] To: kitfox-list(at)matronics.com

 Subject: RE: Re: Flapperons

 Date: Sun, 15 May 2011 22:47:16 -0400

 

 --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "David" <davestapa(at)juno.com>

 

 Is anyone else getting 50+copies of Wurlybird e-mails? 

 

 

 C. David Estapa

 Woodstock, Georgia

 

 --

_________________
Always looking up.....

Guy Buchanan

Joined: 16 Jul 2006
Posts: 1204
Location: Ramona, CA

Posted: Sun May 15, 2011 8:45 pm Post subject: Flapperons

On 5/15/2011 7:47 PM, David wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   Is anyone else getting 50+copies of Wurlybird e-mails?

    

No, and you can be certain that if we were getting 50+ copies of 
	


anything we'd quickly do something about it.



Guy Buchanan - List moderator

Ramona, CA

Kitfox IV-1200 / 592-C / Warp 3cs / 500 hrs. and grounded

_________________
Guy Buchanan
Deceased K-IV 1200
A glider pilot too.

Michel

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 966
Location: Norway

Posted: Sun May 15, 2011 11:36 pm Post subject: Re: Flapperons

Hello everyone,

I haven't post for a long time now. I am still flying my Kitfox 3 with a Jabiru engine. Actually, here are some photos from a trip from Norway to Friedrichshafen AERO 2011 exhibition:

http://home.online.no/~michel/aero2011/



Anyway, I just wanted to say that, after perhaps 450 hours with my Kitfox, I still love her and ... I never use my flaps. As we know, it pitches the nose down and yes, it increases lift but, to my humble opinion, not so much the drag.



On final, I adjust my speed with side slips. I do it all the way to the threshold, to land on the numbers. It is perhaps a question of taste but ... trying to do a three-points landing with my taildragger and induce nose-down by using the flaps ... I don't feel like it.



The only time I have used my flaps is when taking off from a short field with long wet grass. Use the flaps to get fast out of the grass, then keep flat above it to gain speed before initial climb.



Cheers,

Michel

_________________
Kitfox 3 - Jabiru 2200

thesupe(at)hotmail.com
Guest

Posted: Mon May 16, 2011 3:40 am Post subject: Flapperons

Good to have you back  Michel, not to long ago it crossed my mind that we hadn't heard from you in a long time.  I had hoped that everything was okey with you.  You always had good comments and information to post.  

 Jim Chuk

 Avid MK IV (flying)

 Kitfox 4 (building slowly)

 northern Mn

 do not archive

 

 > Subject: Re: Flapperons

[quote] From: michel(at)online.no

 Date: Mon, 16 May 2011 00:36:13 -0700

 To: kitfox-list(at)matronics.com

 

 --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Michel" <michel(at)online.no>

 

 Hello everyone,

 I haven't post for a long time now. I am still flying my Kitfox 3 with a Jabiru engine. Actually, here are some photos from a trip from Norway to Friedrichshafen AERO 2011 exhibition:

 http://home.online.no/~michel/aero2011/

 

 Anyway, I just wanted to say that, after perhaps 450 hours with my Kitfox, I still love her and .. I never use my flaps. As we know, it pitches the nose down and yes, it increases lift but, to my humble opinion, not so much the drag.

 

 On final, I adjust my speed with side slips. I do it all the way to the threshold, to land on the numbers. It is perhaps a question of taste but ... trying to do a three-points landing with my taildragger and induce nose-down by using the flaps ... I don't feel like it.

 

 The only time I have used my flaps is when taking off from a short field with long wet grass. Use the flaps to get fast out of the grass, then keep flat above it to gain speed before initial climb.

 

 Cheers,

 Michel

 

 --------

 Kitfox 3 - Jabiru 2200

 

 

 

 

 Read this topic online here:

 

 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=339990#339990

 

 

 > 

 

 

 		 	   		     	  Quote: 	
		  [b]

brentbidus(at)juno.com
Guest

Posted: Tue May 17, 2011 10:17 am Post subject: Flapperons

Welcome back Michel!  Your pictures are always inspiring to those of us still building.  Today is Norway's Constitution Day, so Michel, best wishes on your holiday and I hope you were able to go flying to celebrate.



Brent Bidus

Kitfox 4-912

Colorado Springs



--------

mino2(at)verizon.net
Guest

Posted: Tue May 17, 2011 3:36 pm Post subject: Flapperons

Hey Michel,



Nice to hear from you again.  Hope your health problems are behind you. 

Great pictures, as usual.  Always enjoyed your post and missed them these 

last months.  I'm an old guy with and almost done vixen with a 912S.



Cheers,



Nelson



---

Lynn Matteson

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 2778
Location: Grass Lake, Michigan

Posted: Tue May 17, 2011 5:43 pm Post subject: Flapperons

Hey Michel-

Good to hear from you....sounds like you're doing ok, but how's the  

engine holding up? Had any of the bugs that the Jabiru-group folks  

are writing about?



Lynn Matteson

Kitfox IV Speedster, taildragger

Jabiru 2200, #2062

Prince prop (64 x 30, P-tip)

Electroair direct-fire ignition system

Rotec TBI-40 injection (sleeved to 36mm)

Status: flying with "Ramcharger" intake manifold...1104 hrs (since  

3-27-2006)





On May 16, 2011, at 3:36 AM, Michel wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   



 Hello everyone,

 I haven't post for a long time now. I am still flying my Kitfox 3  

 with a Jabiru engine. Actually, here are some photos from a trip  

 from Norway to Friedrichshafen AERO 2011 exhibition:

 http://home.online.no/~michel/aero2011/



 Anyway, I just wanted to say that, after perhaps 450 hours with my  

 Kitfox, I still love her and ... I never use my flaps. As we know,  

 it pitches the nose down and yes, it increases lift but, to my  

 humble opinion, not so much the drag.



 On final, I adjust my speed with side slips. I do it all the way to  

 the threshold, to land on the numbers. It is perhaps a question of  

 taste but ... trying to do a three-points landing with my  

 taildragger and induce nose-down by using the flaps ... I don't  

 feel like it.



 The only time I have used my flaps is when taking off from a short  

 field with long wet grass. Use the flaps to get fast out of the  

 grass, then keep flat above it to gain speed before initial climb.



 Cheers,

 Michel



 --------

 Kitfox 3 - Jabiru 2200





 Read this topic online here:



 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=339990#339990

_________________
Lynn
Kitfox IV-Jabiru 2200
N369LM

lcfitt(at)sbcglobal.net
Guest

Posted: Tue May 17, 2011 6:22 pm Post subject: Flapperons

Michel,



As with the others, it is good to hear your voice.  It brings to mind many 

good times.



Lowell



--------------------------------------------------

From: "Michel" <michel(at)online.no>

Sent: Monday, May 16, 2011 12:36 AM

To: <kitfox-list(at)matronics.com>

Subject: Re: Flapperons



 	  Quote: 	
		   



 Hello everyone,

 I haven't post for a long time now. I am still flying my Kitfox 3 with a 

 Jabiru engine. Actually, here are some photos from a trip from Norway to 

 Friedrichshafen AERO 2011 exhibition:

 http://home.online.no/~michel/aero2011/



 Anyway, I just wanted to say that, after perhaps 450 hours with my Kitfox, 

 I still love her and ... I never use my flaps. As we know, it pitches the 

 nose down and yes, it increases lift but, to my humble opinion, not so 

 much the drag.



 On final, I adjust my speed with side slips. I do it all the way to the 

 threshold, to land on the numbers. It is perhaps a question of taste but 

 ... trying to do a three-points landing with my taildragger and induce 

 nose-down by using the flaps ... I don't feel like it.



 The only time I have used my flaps is when taking off from a short field 

 with long wet grass. Use the flaps to get fast out of the grass, then keep 

 flat above it to gain speed before initial climb.



 Cheers,

 Michel



 --------

 Kitfox 3 - Jabiru 2200





 Read this topic online here:



 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=339990#339990

jose_m_toro(at)yahoo.com
Guest

Posted: Tue May 17, 2011 8:20 pm Post subject: Flapperons

Hey Michel, welcome back.  When I made my planes' maiden flight recently, it came to my mind all the support I received from you a few years ago.  Is is great to know that your health is ok, that you still fly your Kitfox III, and that there are new pictures and stories on the way.



Saludos!



Jose



Sent from my iPad



On May 16, 2011, at 3:36 AM, "Michel" <michel(at)online.no> wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   

 

 Hello everyone,

 I haven't post for a long time now. I am still flying my Kitfox 3 with a Jabiru engine. Actually, here are some photos from a trip from Norway to Friedrichshafen AERO 2011 exhibition:

 http://home.online.no/~michel/aero2011/

 

 Anyway, I just wanted to say that, after perhaps 450 hours with my Kitfox, I still love her and ... I never use my flaps. As we know, it pitches the nose down and yes, it increases lift but, to my humble opinion, not so much the drag.

 

 On final, I adjust my speed with side slips. I do it all the way to the threshold, to land on the numbers. It is perhaps a question of taste but ... trying to do a three-points landing with my taildragger and induce nose-down by using the flaps ... I don't feel like it.

 

 The only time I have used my flaps is when taking off from a short field with long wet grass. Use the flaps to get fast out of the grass, then keep flat above it to gain speed before initial climb.

 

 Cheers,

 Michel

 

 --------

 Kitfox 3 - Jabiru 2200

 

 

 

 

 Read this topic online here:

 

 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=339990#339990

Michel

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 966
Location: Norway

Posted: Wed May 18, 2011 4:11 am Post subject: Re: Flapperons

Wow, I didn't think you guys were remembering me!  Thanks for your kind words, Jose, Lowell, Lynn, Nelson, Brent and Jim.



Brent, it was nice to meet you at the AERO2011 exhibition. Unfortunately we had very little time to spend together, I was trying to keep my Norwegian group together! 



Lynn, my Jabiru is just fine and the since its number is 1665, I don't need to worry about those bolts. This is perhaps the reason I am not present on the Kitfox and Jabiru forum, both aircraft and engine are doing just fine and so am I, after my cardiac arrest of two and half years ago. I jog twice a week and keep as fit as possible. At 63, I have come to what we call in Norwegian, the "age of reparation!" 



Cheers,

Michel



PS: Here is a video from a flight last summer:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CqlZjsm7YkE

_________________
Kitfox 3 - Jabiru 2200

Jeffrey Dill

Joined: 23 Jul 2007
Posts: 52
Location: Pleasant view, TN

Posted: Sat Jul 30, 2011 8:24 pm Post subject: Re: Flapperons

Been working and playing hard and got behind on postings. but wanted to add a late comment to this one. Mine is a model 2. I agree with everything said regarding the down side (no pun intended) of full flaps. It produces nose down trim on final and with enough flaps a 3 point landing is not possible due to reaching full aft stick in the flare. But, there is another perk of setting less flaps besides flying trimmed for airspeed on final. Hang with me because I think I have something you can add to your bag of tricks.

 I have about 100 hours of taildragger by now, most of it in my model 2. During the first 25 hours it would land nice 9 out of 10 times, but then surprise me by unexplicably darting towards the grass. Most of the time I had enough power to get off the ground before the unthinkable, but one day I got into the grass, which bogged me down, a lot. I ripped off the gear by hitting a sign twice the distance I thought I would need to get off the ground. Bad day to say the least, and BTW, don't do that on a slow news day.

    Fast forward a couple of years and I am once again getting cocky in my repaired darter. After some demoralizing extra training and a 709 ride with the FAA, I had not experienced the occasional no-notice head for the weeds ... until my new confidence level let me take on the additional risk of training my son. It was deja vu all over again. In the blink of a eye he had me in the grass, this time heading for a ditch. Right or wrong, the full-power decision had been made and we were committed, but the damned thing wouldn't unstick from the ground... and this is the point... I reached down and grabbed a handful of flaps, additional flaps were only available because I don't normally use full flaps,  and we jumped off the ground. Without that move I think I would have ripped off the gear again, but instead we jumped off the ground immediately.

_________________
Jeff Dill
Model 2

Dick Maddux

Joined: 24 Jun 2008
Posts: 516
Location: Milton, Fl

Posted: Sun Jul 31, 2011 4:47 am Post subject: Flapperons

>I reached down and grabbed a handful of  flaps,

      additional flaps were only available  because I don't normally use full flaps,

      and  we jumped off the ground. Without that move I think I would have  ripped

      off the gear again, but instead we  jumped off the ground immediately.<

       

 Jeff ,

   This is a technique I used to use on occasion in a Piper Tri Pacer I  used to own. The most memorable was when taking off on a short island  in the middle of a lake in California. Just prior to hitting the water I popped  the flaps down,my passenger screamed, and we were flying....tis a good procedure  and works well !

                                                  Dick Maddux

                                                  Fox 4

                                                 Milton,Fl  

 [quote][b]

Jeffrey Dill

Joined: 23 Jul 2007
Posts: 52
Location: Pleasant view, TN

Posted: Sun Jul 31, 2011 5:59 am Post subject: Re: Flapperons

Ahh, the mighty Tripacer! A 1953 version was the family queen ship; I got my private in it, 37 years ago it pains me to admit. Like the Kitfox, I think it was a good design that offers a lot of value for the buck. What does that say about you and me? I prefer the term "frugal". JRD

_________________
Jeff Dill
Model 2

Pat Reilly

Joined: 06 Aug 2009
Posts: 345

Posted: Sun Aug 07, 2011 5:43 pm Post subject: Flapperons

Kitfoxers, My Mod 3 flapperons are in poor condition. Any suggestions as to how to build, buy or find replacements for them? 

-- 

Pat Reilly

Mod 3 582 Rebuild

Rockford,IL

  [quote][b]

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