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Wings and Rivets

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backstagelive(at)gmail.co
Guest

Posted: Tue May 24, 2011 10:43 am Post subject: Wings and Rivets

Hey Guys,



I have 2 questions I would like to ask.



1) Rivets.  Do the rivets we use have any kind of aircraft designation to 

them as far as a mil spec part number or universal part number, or are they 

propriatary Zenith parts only. I have never seen them in a Wicks or Aircraft 

Spruce catalog. Does anyone know where these rivets come from and what they 

are officially called?



2) Wings.  My wings and my center section are upgraded and finished, and 

ready to be put back in the airplane. this plane was 3/4 finished when the 

upgrade was announced so the wings have never been attached. I want to make 

sure there will be no surprises when I attach the wings, so I am looking for 

some advise. There are ditfferent ways to approach this problem and I would 

like to find out how you guys that have attached your wings did it. The wing 

attach holes have not been opened up to the final bolt size yet. I was 

thinking of taking the center section and attaching it to the wings out of 

the airplane and reaming the holes, or I could ream the holes in the center 

section to the final size and install the center section on the plane now, 

then put the wings on the plane and re-ream the holes to fit. That seems to 

be a more precise way of doing it because it would make sure the dihedral is 

set perfectly on both wings. Or I could just put in the center section now 

and ream the center section and wing spar together at the end of 

construction. My question is, did anyone ream the wings and center section 

together, how hard was it to do, is there enough room in the cockpit to do a 

decent job, and if you had to do it over again, how would you do it?



Thanks.



Joe in Oshkosh

psm(at)att.net
Guest

Posted: Tue May 24, 2011 11:21 am Post subject: Wings and Rivets

Hi Joe,



I understand the rivets sold by ZAC are made by a South American 

(Brazil?) company called Avex.  They are not mil. spec. and indeed are 

not considered structural rivets.  The story I've heard is that Zenith 

tests each batch to insure they are actually better than the 

manufacturer guarantees.  You can get them from other sources, but then 

you face the question of just how good the ones you get are.



I have mounted my wings twice now and the first time was a disaster.  

That time I kept enlarging the holes to get them to line up while the 

wings were attached.  This is nearly impossible to do well because the 

cabin side interferes with the outer holes and the seat bottom 

interferes with all the holes when you try to drill or ream them.



This time I had the carry through removed and carefully fitted all 12 

bolts to the structure.  I tried reaming at first but decided drilling 

with small steps works better for me.  The spar end is so thick that it 

is difficult to get a reamer to go straight while a drill bit naturally 

finds the hole center.  If I drilled using every incremental size drill 

of a "Letter" set I found I got very nice holes with little real skill 

on my part.



Good luck,



Paul

XL just mounting wings - for the last time -- I hope.

On 5/24/2011 11:40 AM, Joe wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   



 Hey Guys,



 I have 2 questions I would like to ask.



 1) Rivets.  Do the rivets we use have any kind of aircraft designation 

 to them as far as a mil spec part number or universal part number, or 

 are they propriatary Zenith parts only. I have never seen them in a 

 Wicks or Aircraft Spruce catalog. Does anyone know where these rivets 

 come from and what they are officially called?



 2) Wings.  My wings and my center section are upgraded and finished, 

 and ready to be put back in the airplane. this plane was 3/4 finished 

 when the upgrade was announced so the wings have never been attached. 

 I want to make sure there will be no surprises when I attach the 

 wings, so I am looking for some advise. There are ditfferent ways to 

 approach this problem and I would like to find out how you guys that 

 have attached your wings did it. The wing attach holes have not been 

 opened up to the final bolt size yet. I was thinking of taking the 

 center section and attaching it to the wings out of the airplane and 

 reaming the holes, or I could ream the holes in the center section to 

 the final size and install the center section on the plane now, then 

 put the wings on the plane and re-ream the holes to fit. That seems to 

 be a more precise way of doing it because it would make sure the 

 dihedral is set perfectly on both wings. Or I could just put in the 

 center section now and ream the center section and wing spar together 

 at the end of construction. My question is, did anyone ream the wings 

 and center section together, how hard was it to do, is there enough 

 room in the cockpit to do a decent job, and if you had to do it over 

 again, how would you do it?



 Thanks.



 Joe in Oshkosh

carlossa52(at)gmail.com
Guest

Posted: Tue May 24, 2011 4:36 pm Post subject: Wings and Rivets

Hello, Joe

About a thousand years ago (it does feels that way) I posted details on the Avex rivets (part numbers and such) - check the archives (Zenith list, not the 601 list), if interested.

At the time, the manufacturer - Avdel - was a Textron company, but they are now independent (more or less - see http://www.avdel-global.com/en/company/brand-history.html ).

  

I believe this is such a fundamental component of the airframe that the best thing to do is to get them for Zenair - if nothing else, for peace of mind.



Good luck



Carlos

CH601-HD, plans



  On 24 May 2011 14:40, Joe <backstagelive(at)gmail.com (backstagelive(at)gmail.com)> wrote:

[quote]  --> Zenith601-List message posted by: "Joe" <backstagelive(at)gmail.com (backstagelive(at)gmail.com)>

 

 Hey Guys,

 

 I have 2 questions I would like to ask.

 

 1) Rivets.  Do the rivets we use have any kind of aircraft designation to them as far as a mil spec part number or universal part number, or are they propriatary Zenith parts only. I have never seen them in a Wicks or Aircraft Spruce catalog. Does anyone know where these rivets come from and what they are officially called?

  [b]

Ron Lendon

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 685
Location: Clinton Twp., MI

Posted: Tue May 24, 2011 5:59 pm Post subject: Re: Wings and Rivets

Joe,



I found them here



http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/hapages/avexblindriv.php



We use the 120 degree ones.

_________________
Ron Lendon
WW Corvair with Roy's Garage 5th bearing
CH 601 XLB
N601LT - Flying
http://www.mykitlog.com/rlendon
Corvair Engine Prints:
https://sites.google.com/site/corvairenginedata/

JohnDRead(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Tue May 24, 2011 6:34 pm Post subject: Wings and Rivets

I believe Zenith has qualified product from Canadian and UK plants. A phone  call to Zenith would confirm. Personally I would buy rivets from Zenith as  they test the batches. do not archive

  

 Regards,  John



CH701 - Colorado - Jabiru 3300



Cell: 719-494-4567

Home:  303-648-3261   

  In a message dated 5/24/2011 6:36:54 P.M. Mountain Daylight Time,  carlossa52(at)gmail.com writes:

  	  Quote: 	
		  Hello,    Joe

About a thousand years ago (it does feels that way) I posted    details on the Avex rivets (part numbers and such) - check the archives    (Zenith list, not the 601 list), if interested.

At the time, the    manufacturer - Avdel - was a Textron company, but they are now independent    (more or less - see http://www.avdel-global.com/en/company/brand-history.html    ).



I believe this is such a fundamental component of the airframe that    the best thing to do is to get them for Zenair - if nothing else, for peace of    mind.



Good luck



Carlos

CH601-HD, plans



   On 24 May 2011 14:40, Joe <backstagelive(at)gmail.com (backstagelive(at)gmail.com)>    wrote:

    	  Quote: 	
		  --> Zenith601-List message posted by: "Joe" <backstagelive(at)gmail.com (backstagelive(at)gmail.com)>



Hey Guys,



I have      2 questions I would like to ask.



1) Rivets.  Do the rivets we      use have any kind of aircraft designation to them as far as a mil spec part      number or universal part number, or are they propriatary Zenith parts only.      I have never seen them in a Wicks or Aircraft Spruce catalog. Does anyone      know where these rivets come from and what they are officially    called?





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====================================

ms.matronics.com/">http://forums.matronics.com

====================================

tp://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/contribution

====================================



	
	




  [quote][b]

its4jes(at)aim.com
Guest

Posted: Tue May 24, 2011 6:52 pm Post subject: Wings and Rivets

Hi guys

 

 I shortened the undersize bit so I could get it into the wing bolt access hole and did the same 

 with a 3/8 reamer.  I then inserted an AN 3/8 bolt to get a good tight fit.   Used a right angle 

 drill motor to do the job.

 

 Regards

 

 JES

    

  

     

  

    

     

  

     

  

    --

xl(at)prosody.org
Guest

Posted: Tue May 24, 2011 9:33 pm Post subject: Wings and Rivets

Paul,



You may know that I rarely post.

In ths case, I decided that I must.

Although I am just an experimental airplane builder/flyer.



The instructions provided with the upgrade kit emphasize

that the spar holes must be reamed. Close tolerance bolts

are used. You should not only drill the holes.

You should ream them also.



See: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reaming

Reaming versus drilling to size

The geometry of a hole drilled in metal by a twist drill may not be 

accurate enough (close enough to a true cylinder of a certain precise 

diameter) and may not have the required smooth surface finish for certain 

engineering applications. Although modern twist drills can perform 

excellently in many casesâ€”usually producing sufficiently accurate holes 

for most applicationsâ€”sometimes the stringency of the requirements for 

the hole's geometry and finish necessitate two operations: a drilling to 

slightly undersize, followed by reaming with a reamer.  .... .... ...



Joe E

N633Z (at) BFI

CH601XLb, 680 hours, >60 since the upgrade

Jabiru 3300, Sensenich 64x51 wood prop

On Tue, 24 May 2011, Paul Mulwitz wrote: >


 	  Quote: 	
		   Hi Joe,

 ........snip  ....snip

 This time I had the carry through removed and carefully fitted all 12 bolts 

 to the structure.  I tried reaming at first but decided drilling with small 

 steps works better for me.  The spar end is so thick that it is difficult to 

 get a reamer to go straight while a drill bit naturally finds the hole 

 center.  If I drilled using every incremental size drill of a "Letter" set I 

 found I got very nice holes with little real skill on my part.

 Good luck, Paul

 XL just mounting wings - for the last time -- I hope.

<pre><b><font size=2 color="#000000" face="courier new,courier">

craig(at)craigandjean.com
Guest

Posted: Tue May 24, 2011 10:01 pm Post subject: Wings and Rivets

Indeed.



http://www3.sympatico.ca/fhofmann/art_round_hole.html



On the RVs the spar holes are reamed and then *burnished*.



-- Craig



--

psm(at)att.net
Guest

Posted: Wed May 25, 2011 3:38 am Post subject: Wings and Rivets

Hi Joe,

Thank you for your comment regarding reaming vs. drilling holes.

I can only report my experience with this issue rather than claim any 

expertise in the engineering details.  I tried to do these holes by 

drilling undersized and then reaming and the results were inconsistent 

and mostly horrible.  I have had good luck with this approach on 

relatively thin pieces of metal, but the upgraded wing spar stack is 

just plain huge.  I wasn't able to keep the reamer going in the desired 

direction through both layers of the carry through structure and wing 

main spar.

Using normal drills worked better for me.  The holes appear nice and 

round and the surface of the hole seems very smooth.  I did this by step 

drilling perhaps 0.020 inch increments from the initial size to the 

final size.  My over sized bolts (AN6-21A for most holes) slip into the 

final holes without any force but do not wiggle at all when inserted.  

If I measure the bolt and hole with digital calipers I have less than 

.005 inches total clearance.  Considering the fact that there are 6 

bolts holding the same pieces together and the large bolts are properly 

torqued I feel there is little risk of slippage or other problems with 

the final structure.

If I am wrong then I will pay the appropriate price.  I am confident any 

problems that develop over time will show up on annual inspections 

rather than catastrophic structure failure.

Paul

Xl - In final stages before inspection for airworthiness cert.

On 5/24/2011 10:30 PM, xl wrote:

 	  Quote: 	

 Paul,

 You may know that I rarely post.

 In ths case, I decided that I must.

 Although I am just an experimental airplane builder/flyer.

 The instructions provided with the upgrade kit emphasize

 that the spar holes must be reamed. Close tolerance bolts

 are used. You should not only drill the holes.

 You should ream them also.

 See: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reaming

 Reaming versus drilling to size

 The geometry of a hole drilled in metal by a twist drill may not be 

 accurate enough (close enough to a true cylinder of a certain precise 

 diameter) and may not have the required smooth surface finish for 

 certain engineering applications. Although modern twist drills can 

 perform excellently in many casesâ€”usually producing sufficiently 

 accurate holes for most applicationsâ€”sometimes the stringency of the 

 requirements for the hole's geometry and finish necessitate two 

 operations: a drilling to slightly undersize, followed by reaming with 

 a reamer.  .... .... ...

 Joe E

 N633Z (at) BFI

 CH601XLb, 680 hours, >60 since the upgrade

 Jabiru 3300, Sensenich 64x51 wood prop

 On Tue, 24 May 2011, Paul Mulwitz wrote: >

> Hi Joe,

> ........snip  ....snip

> This time I had the carry through removed and carefully fitted all 12 

> bolts to the structure.  I tried reaming at first but decided 

> drilling with small steps works better for me.  The spar end is so 

> thick that it is difficult to get a reamer to go straight while a 

> drill bit naturally finds the hole center.  If I drilled using every 

> incremental size drill of a "Letter" set I found I got very nice 

> holes with little real skill on my part.

> Good luck, Paul

> XL just mounting wings - for the last time -- I hope.

 <pre><b><font size=2 color="#000000" face="courier new,courier">

 href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith601-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith601-List</a>

 href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com</a>

 href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/contribution</a>

 </b></font></pre>

countzero

Joined: 25 Oct 2007
Posts: 25

Posted: Wed May 25, 2011 6:07 am Post subject: Re: Wings and Rivets

Hi Paul,



Did you know AN6 bolts have a rated uts of only 10,100lbs whereas the specified NAS6205 bolts are good for about 12,100lbs?



Also, AN bolt tolerances are class C - general purpose limits, NAS6205 bolts are class A - precision manufacturing limits. You might find the NAS bolts are too loose in a hole drilled for ANs.



Regards,

Rob

Last edited by countzero on Wed May 25, 2011 9:51 am; edited 1 time in total

psm(at)att.net
Guest

Posted: Wed May 25, 2011 8:19 am Post subject: Wings and Rivets

Hi Rob,



Is tensile strength an issue in this application?



It seems to me the primary issue is shear strength.



Paul



On 5/25/2011 7:07 AM, countzero wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   Hi Paul,



 Did you know AN6 bolts have a rated uts of only 10.1ksi whereas the specified NAS6205 bolts are good for 12.1ksi?



 Also, AN bolt tolerances are class C - general purpose limits, NAS6205 bolts are class A - precision manufacturing limits. You might find the NAS bolts are too loose in a hole drilled for ANs.



 Regards,

 Rob

countzero

Joined: 25 Oct 2007
Posts: 25

Posted: Wed May 25, 2011 11:34 am Post subject: Re: Wings and Rivets

Hi Paul, I've edited the numbers in my previous post as they were probably misleading/definitely wrong.



Weren't the AN bolts changed to NAS after the ANs failed in bending during the Zenith testing prior to the upgrades? I'm sure I remembered seeing photos of bent bolts in some report from Zenith.



The ANs have an Fsu of 75ksi so 3/8 ANs should not have an issue with shear strength. I've never heard of any bolts being sheared off, what's the issue there?



Rob

psm(at)att.net
Guest

Posted: Wed May 25, 2011 1:18 pm Post subject: Wings and Rivets

Hi Rob,



I'm not sure there is an issue here.



I don't know about any bolt problems shown in the various accident 

wreckage.  Of course, I have not really paid attention to that level of 

detail, so I might be wrong.



I recall some details in the 40 page document released by the FAA that 

talked about permanent deformation in the bolt area when subjected to 

load testing, but I don't think this was actually talking about the 

bolts themselves.  I took it to mean the holes had permanent deformation.



It is really hard to bend a steel bolt in shear load.  My guess is any 

failure in the bolts would be a broken bolt rather than a bent one.



I remember many examples of broken spar caps in the carry through and 

the main wing spar near the wing root.  Of course, these aluminum bars 

are not nearly as strong as large steel bolts.



I would be happy to be corrected if my memory or lack of mechanical 

engineering know-how points to a possible problem with my use of 6 AN6 

bolts on each wing root.



Paul

On 5/25/2011 12:34 PM, countzero wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   Hi Paul, I've edited the numbers in my previous post as they were probably misleading/definitely wrong.



 Weren't the AN bolts changed to NAS after the ANs failed in bending during the Zenith testing prior to the upgrades? I'm sure I remembered seeing photos of bent bolts in some report from Zenith.



 The ANs have an Fsu of 75ksi so 3/8 ANs should not have an issue with shear strength. I've never heard of any bolts being sheared off, what's the issue there?



 Rob

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