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cabin top filling sealing

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pilotdds(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Mon May 30, 2011 8:00 am Post subject: cabin top filling sealing

I know this has been discussed before but what is the current thinking on a material for filling and sealing the cabin top before application of primer.Please share your experiences with ease of use and finishing -thanks Jim

  [quote][b]

carl.froehlich(at)verizon
Guest

Posted: Mon May 30, 2011 8:26 am Post subject: cabin top filling sealing

After the fiberglass work is done around the windows and door, two coats of smooth prime put on with a roller, sand, then epoxy primer.  Same for all the fiberglass. 

 

Carl 

RV-8A (650 hrs)

RV-10 (getting the fuselage ready for the paint booth.

 

 

 

From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of pilotdds

Sent: Monday, May 30, 2011 11:56 AM

To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com; "<rv10-list"(at)matronics.com

Subject: cabin top filling sealing



 

 

I know this has been discussed before but what is the current thinking on a material for filling and sealing the cabin top before application of primer.Please share your experiences with ease of use and finishing -thanks Jim

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   [quote][b]

rv10flyer(at)verizon.net
Guest

Posted: Mon May 30, 2011 8:49 am Post subject: cabin top filling sealing

Vans tells one to lay epoxy thinned with MEK and brushing it  on 3-4 times. It worked for me with minor pinholes. Time consuming and serious  attention to detail. I think the filler/ smooth prime idea of rolling it on  would be a solution I would consider if I had to do it again. It was cost that  stopped me from doing it initially, as epoxy is far less expensive than the cost  of cans of smoothprime.

  



  From: pilotdds (pilotdds(at)aol.com) 

 Sent: Monday, May 30, 2011 8:55 AM

 To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com (rv10-list(at)matronics.com) ; [url=Subject: cabin top filling sealing

 



 I know this has been discussed before but what is the  current thinking on a material for filling and sealing the cabin top before  application of primer.Please share your experiences with ease of use and  finishing -thanks Jim

[quote]



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[b]

Lew Gallagher

Joined: 04 Jan 2008
Posts: 402
Location: Greenville , SC

Posted: Mon May 30, 2011 8:54 am Post subject: cabin top filling sealing

Hey Jim,

  

 First I scuffed up the glaze of the jell coat (I do  all sanding with a PorterCable random orbital sander w/ 220 grit pads), which  exposes hidden pinholes and gives a good surface for bonding. (all  fiberglass) 

  

 Since I had epoxy/resin (west system) handy, I just  mixed up a slurry with microbeads and applied it with a bondo spreader to fill  the pinholes.  One coat, let it set up, then sand in prep for epoxy primer,  which when sanded properly  leaves a nice unblemished surface ready for  paint.

  

 All this fiberglass/paint stuff is pretty labor  intensive, but rewarding when you get it right!

  

 Later, - Lew

  

   [quote][b]

_________________
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NOW OFICIALLY BUILDER #40549
Fly off completed !

Mauledriver(at)nc.rr.com
Guest

Posted: Mon May 30, 2011 12:22 pm Post subject: cabin top filling sealing

I used Lohle's Wonderfil product and liked it a lot.

     

     What I did on my fiberglass (cowling, top, etc) is start with     Wonderfil.  It goes on easy like a paste wax.  You rub it in and     wipe it off.  It would seem to be compatible with anything you might     put over it.  And in fact, is the easiest way to fill any pinholes     you may have missed.  Just rub a little on to fill the hold and     spray whatever you are spraying  on top.  The paint soaks into the     Wonderfill and you can move on.  After the Wonderfil, I used a 'high     fill' primer  product.  

     

     But when you get to the primer stage, it's a good time to make a     decision about paint.  DIY or farm it out?  What brand?  I chose to     use a Dupont high fill primer (1480S) that was specifically     compatible with most Dupont finishing products including the Imron     Elite line I ended up using.  Lohle has a high fill primer product     but I decided not to use it because I wasn't planning to stay with     the Lohle line of products.  

     

     If you are farming out your painting, you could leave the pinholes     and priming to your painter I would assume.  They might even prefer     it that way... but I don't really know.

     

     Bill "found some hangar space at  a hard surface airport for final     assembly and flight" Watson

     

     [quote]         I know this has been discussed before           but what is the current thinking on a material for filling and           sealing the cabin top before application of primer.Please           share your experiences with ease of use and finishing -thanks           Jim

       

     [b]

indigoonlatigo(at)msn.com
Guest

Posted: Mon May 30, 2011 8:05 pm Post subject: cabin top filling sealing

A correction to this email, Wonderfil is not compatible with all products. It would be best to stick with Loehle products if you are to use Wonderfil.



As for the cowling, those are not pinholes, those are craters. These are better filled with a filler not simply primer IMO, even if the Loehle literature shows Wonderfil as a method of filling these craters.



Date: Mon, 30 May 2011 16:20:00 -0400

From: Mauledriver(at)nc.rr.com

To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com

Subject: Re: cabin top filling sealing



                      I used Lohle's Wonderfil product and liked it a lot.

     

     What I did on my fiberglass (cowling, top, etc) is start with     Wonderfil.  It goes on easy like a paste wax.  You rub it in and     wipe it off.  It would seem to be compatible with anything you might     put over it.  And in fact, is the easiest way to fill any pinholes     you may have missed.  Just rub a little on to fill the hold and     spray whatever you are spraying  on top.  The paint soaks into the     Wonderfill and you can move on.  After the Wonderfil, I used a 'high     fill' primer  product.  

     

     But when you get to the primer stage, it's a good time to make a     decision about paint.  DIY or farm it out?  What brand?  I chose to     use a Dupont high fill primer (1480S) that was specifically     compatible with most Dupont finishing products including the Imron     Elite line I ended up using.  Lohle has a high fill primer product     but I decided not to use it because I wasn't planning to stay with     the Lohle line of products.  

     

     If you are farming out your painting, you could leave the pinholes     and priming to your painter I would assume.  They might even prefer     it that way... but I don't really know.

     

     Bill "found some hangar space at  a hard surface airport for final     assembly and flight" Watson

     

     [quote]         I know this has been discussed before           but what is the current thinking on a material for filling and           sealing the cabin top before application of primer.Please           share your experiences with ease of use and finishing -thanks           Jim

       

     



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[b]

Mauledriver(at)nc.rr.com
Guest

Posted: Tue May 31, 2011 11:14 am Post subject: cabin top filling sealing

What was your incompatibility experience John?  Sounds wrenching.  

     

     I stand corrected in that no product is compatible with all other     products.  While I felt comfortable using the Wonderfil - I would     not have used the Lohle "UV blocker filler" unless I was sticking to     the Lohle line for priming and finishing.

     

     The way I understand the process at this point pieces like the top     and the cowling and the pants is this

     Step 1,2,3: Filling.  First get the pinholes before any other     filling (do it before any filling because if you fill over a pinhole     surface, then sand thru the fill, you may re-expose the pinholes).      There were plenty of them on both my green top and pink cowling.  I     used Wonderfil and recommend it, especially for this initial pass.      Then fill in any major depressions with an epoxy based filler.      Could be a micro mix.  Superfil is faster and easier with an easily     sandable result.  Just 1 or 2 passes here.  Then do the rest of the     minor filling with a polyester filler like Metal Glaze.  Easy to use     because it sets immediately and sands very easily.  You might do a     dozen passes on a piece but they go fast.  Some people will advise     not to mix polyester fillers and epoxy.  The pros do it and for very     good reason;  it's efficient.  Then spray on a 'high fill' primer     with some tint.  Here, brand selection probably starts to be     important.  Tt probably makes sense to use a filler that is     compatible with the primer/topcoat you plan to use.   In any case,      Lohle does theirs in black, my Dupont product is gray.  Color helps     you see stuff so don't use white.  A 'tell' coat of black can be     used for this too - I didn't.  Sand it down, blow it off, and see     what's left to do.  I had a few pinholes left which I hit again with     Wonderfil just before spraying more fill or starting the ....  

     

     Step 4: Prime:  Here you want to have chosen a product compatible     with your topcoat and plan on  spraying everything with it -     aluminum & plastic.  If this is a DIY paint job proceed.  If     this is going to be farmed out, stop and think about how much of     steps 1,2, and 3 the paint shop should do.  Maybe they should be     doing all of it.  What do others think?  If DIY, follow the data     sheets have good ventilation AND a fresh system for epoxies,     polyurethanes and probably anything else.

     

     Step 5: Topcoat - I took a idiosyncratic path - worked well but not     sure how I'd do it next time.  Just stay compatiable and follow the     spec sheets. Coatings are sophisticated chemistry these days and not     to be played with or guessed at for good results.

     

     Previously, someone pointed out here  that Wonderfil seems to be a     re-packaging of another product that is available under other     labels.

     

     The spray on Filler selection for the fiberglass would seem to be     key.  There are lots of 'high fill' primers out there with various     filling/sanding properties.  I was happy with mine for the most part     but had some challenges.  When it was humid, the filler would     'cheese' when sanded and immediatly clog the sandpaper.  Though I     had a fully ventilated spray booth and fresh air breathing eqipment,     I found that I wanted full protection when sanding a week after     spraying.  Fumes came off the filler for a couple of weeks and they     weren't pleasant.  In any case, filling and sanding the big parts is     a lot of work.... or not.

     

     

     On 5/31/2011 12:02 AM, John Gonzalez wrote:     [quote]              A correction to this email, Wonderfil is not compatible with all       products. It would be best to stick with Loehle products if you       are to use Wonderfil.       

       

       As for the cowling, those are not pinholes, those are         craters. These are better filled with a filler not simply primer         IMO, even if the Loehle literature shows Wonderfil as a method         of filling these craters.

         

         Date: Mon, 30 May 2011 16:20:00 -0400

         From: Mauledriver(at)nc.rr.com (Mauledriver(at)nc.rr.com)

         To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com (rv10-list(at)matronics.com)

         Subject: Re: cabin top filling sealing

         

                           I used Lohle's Wonderfil product and liked it a lot.

         

         What I did on my fiberglass (cowling, top, etc) is start with         Wonderfil.  It goes on easy like a paste wax.  You rub it in and         wipe it off.  It would seem to be compatible with anything you         might put over it.  And in fact, is the easiest way to fill any         pinholes you may have missed.  Just rub a little on to fill the         hold and spray whatever you are spraying  on top.  The paint         soaks into the Wonderfill and you can move on.  After the         Wonderfil, I used a 'high fill' primer  product.  

         

         But when you get to the primer stage, it's a good time to make a         decision about paint.  DIY or farm it out?  What brand?  I chose         to use a Dupont high fill primer (1480S) that was specifically         compatible with most Dupont finishing products including the         Imron Elite line I ended up using.  Lohle has a high fill primer         product but I decided not to use it because I wasn't planning to         stay with the Lohle line of products.  

         

         If you are farming out your painting, you could leave the         pinholes and priming to your painter I would assume.  They might         even prefer it that way... but I don't really know.

         

         Bill "found some hangar space at  a hard surface airport for         final assembly and flight" Watson

         

          	  Quote: 	
		               I know this has been discussed               before but what is the current thinking on a material for               filling and sealing the cabin top before application of               primer.Please share your experiences with ease of use and               finishing -thanks Jim

           

         



arget="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List

http://forums.matronics.com

="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution





	
     [b]

indigoonlatigo(at)msn.com
Guest

Posted: Tue May 31, 2011 12:52 pm Post subject: cabin top filling sealing

Hi Bill,

  

 My experience was not asking Mr. Loehle himself about how the wonderfil works. I told his wife what I was doing and she didn't think it would be a problem.

  

 I used UV Smooth and Prime. UV S&P is a water based product and does not work in the same chemistry of the poly ester and maybe epoxy primers. I am not saying that one can't spray these primers on top of UV S&P, you just can't do it until the S&P is cured. 

  

 As I understand it, Wonderfil is a thickened/ concentrated version of the paint carrier molecule. In the application of it in this manner it is simply a wetting agent. 

  

 The problem IMO with using it on the cowl as Loehle shows in his manual is that those defects in the cowl outer surface are not small pin holes, they are craters. Even though the manual states to whip it on liberaly and then whip off the excess, these voids on the surface are filled with a large amount of the wonderfil. I seriously doubt that sraying a layer of primer over the top of it would allow the primer to thoroughly mix with that mass of wonderfil beneath. I like to think of it as pouring epoxy resin into a cup and then adding the hardner into the cup and maybe making one or two stir strokes with a tongue depressor. The result is that only the two chemicals that immediately touch will react, leaving everything below that not cured. 

  

 So I Wonderfilled the the cowl surface and then whipped off the excess and then rolled the UV S&P. It was like painting over a pitted waxed surface, bonded in some spots(where there was no Wonderfil), enough to cause serious grief in later removal and totally not bonded in others.

  

 I am not saying that Wonderfil does not work on pin holes, I am saying I would not use it on the rough surface of the cowl and not with other products that do not use this chemical for the carrier molecule. 

  

 The cowl has a problem in the production of it. The outer glass making up the skin pulls away from the mold once the Nomex honeycomb is added making only the glass which is on contact with this honeycomb actually stay pushed against the mold. The result is the huge craters I refer to. 

  

 To correct this, one needs to add a lot of effort making up for the lack there of on the producers side.

  

 No matter what system used to correct for this, speaking from the experience of an anal retentive dentist, how one effectively roughens and gets a true bond to the bottoms of these craters is a complete mistery???????????????

  

 Corn blaster or sandblaster would work great, but would destroy the part and or add the weight of the beach to the front end of your airplane.

  

 I removed all the UV S&P and then made a slurry of chopped glass and epoxy, squeggying it over the cowl and then after cure, sanding it out again. From there I leveled it out with Epoxy and Micro ballons

 

   Date: Tue, 31 May 2011 15:11:58 -0400

From: Mauledriver(at)nc.rr.com

To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com

Subject: Re: cabin top filling sealing



 What was your incompatibility experience John?  Sounds wrenching.  



I stand corrected in that no product is compatible with all other products.  While I felt comfortable using the Wonderfil - I would not have used the Lohle "UV blocker filler" unless I was sticking to the Lohle line for priming and finishing.



The way I understand the process at this point pieces like the top and the cowling and the pants is this

Step 1,2,3: Filling.  First get the pinholes before any other filling (do it before any filling because if you fill over a pinhole surface, then sand thru the fill, you may re-expose the pinholes).  There were plenty of them on both my green top and pink cowling.  I used Wonderfil and recommend it, especially for this initial pass.  Then fill in any major depressions with an epoxy based filler.  Could be a micro mix.  Superfil is faster and easier with an easily sandable result.  Just 1 or 2 passes here.  Then do the rest of the minor filling with a polyester filler like Metal Glaze.  Easy to use because it sets immediately and sands very easily.  You might do a dozen passes on a piece but they go fast.  Some people will advise not to mix polyester fillers and epoxy.  The pros do it and for very good reason;  it's efficient.  Then spray on a 'high fill' primer with some tint.  Here, brand selection probably starts to be important.  Tt probably makes sense to use a filler that is compatible with the primer/topcoat you plan to use.   In any case,  Lohle does theirs in black, my Dupont product is gray.  Color helps you see stuff so don't use white.  A 'tell' coat of black can be used for this too - I didn't.  Sand it down, blow it off, and see what's left to do.  I had a few pinholes left which I hit again with Wonderfil just before spraying more fill or starting the ....  



Step 4: Prime:  Here you want to have chosen a product compatible with your topcoat and plan on  spraying everything with it - aluminum & plastic.  If this is a DIY paint job proceed.  If this is going to be farmed out, stop and think about how much of steps 1,2, and 3 the paint shop should do.  Maybe they should be doing all of it.  What do others think?  If DIY, follow the data sheets have good ventilation AND a fresh system for epoxies, polyurethanes and probably anything else.



Step 5: Topcoat - I took a idiosyncratic path - worked well but not sure how I'd do it next time.  Just stay compatiable and follow the spec sheets. Coatings are sophisticated chemistry these days and not to be played with or guessed at for good results.



Previously, someone pointed out here  that Wonderfil seems to be a re-packaging of another product that is available under other labels.



The spray on Filler selection for the fiberglass would seem to be key.  There are lots of 'high fill' primers out there with various filling/sanding properties.  I was happy with mine for the most part but had some challenges.  When it was humid, the filler would 'cheese' when sanded and immediatly clog the sandpaper.  Though I had a fully ventilated spray booth and fresh air breathing eqipment, I found that I wanted full protection when sanding a week after spraying.  Fumes came off the filler for a couple of weeks and they weren't pleasant.  In any case, filling and sanding the big parts is a lot of work.... or not.

On 5/31/2011 12:02 AM, John Gonzalez wrote:  [quote]  .ExternalClass .ecxhmmessage P {padding:0px;} .ExternalClass body.ecxhmmessage {font-size:10pt;font-family:Tahoma;}   A correction to this email, Wonderfil is not compatible with all products. It would be best to stick with Loehle products if you are to use Wonderfil.  



 As for the cowling, those are not pinholes, those are craters. These are better filled with a filler not simply primer IMO, even if the Loehle literature shows Wonderfil as a method of filling these craters.



  Date: Mon, 30 May 2011 16:20:00 -0400

From: Mauledriver(at)nc.rr.com (Mauledriver(at)nc.rr.com)

To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com (rv10-list(at)matronics.com)

Subject: Re: cabin top filling sealing



I used Lohle's Wonderfil product and liked it a lot.



What I did on my fiberglass (cowling, top, etc) is start with Wonderfil.  It goes on easy like a paste wax.  You rub it in and wipe it off.  It would seem to be compatible with anything you might put over it.  And in fact, is the easiest way to fill any pinholes you may have missed.  Just rub a little on to fill the hold and spray whatever you are spraying  on top.  The paint soaks into the Wonderfill and you can move on.  After the Wonderfil, I used a 'high fill' primer  product.  



But when you get to the primer stage, it's a good time to make a decision about paint.  DIY or farm it out?  What brand?  I chose to use a Dupont high fill primer (1480S) that was specifically compatible with most Dupont finishing products including the Imron Elite line I ended up using.  Lohle has a high fill primer product but I decided not to use it because I wasn't planning to stay with the Lohle line of products.  



If you are farming out your painting, you could leave the pinholes and priming to your painter I would assume.  They might even prefer it that way... but I don't really know.



Bill "found some hangar space at  a hard surface airport for final assembly and flight" Watson



  	  Quote: 	
		   I know this has been discussed before but what is the current thinking on a material for filling and sealing the cabin top before application of primer.Please share your experiences with ease of use and finishing -thanks Jim







arget="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List

http://forums.matronics.com

="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution





	




arget=_blank>http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List

ttp://forums.matronics.com

=_blank>http://www.matronics.com/contribution



[b]

AV8ORJWC

Joined: 13 Jul 2006
Posts: 1149
Location: Aurora, Oregon "Home of VANS"

Posted: Tue May 31, 2011 12:54 pm Post subject: cabin top filling sealing

Different John responding.  Paint compatibility is one of two issues not resolved by builders early enough in their process.  Which topcoat is the final finish should dictate which filler, which primer and what surface prep lends itself to long term adhesion.  Primer wars start builders on one side of a Mason-Dixon Paint line only to find out that improper surface prep, wrong selection of primer, an incompatible filler do not work chemically in partnership with the topcoat selected Late in that process.  Chemistry/Cleanliness/Planning & Prep assist the application of topcoat that will last and bring pride to the purchaser.

 

Many builders chose finished surfaces based on a lower price or ease of work.

 

Choose wisely.

 

John Cox, #40600 & former auto paint restoration specialist with air carrier paint experience beyond my current desire.

 

 

 

PS - the other issue #2 -is the selection of specific antenna and their respective location(s) too late in the build to get the maximum signal transmission and reception after the late avionics decision.  Choice of equipment often predicates antenna selection.  The best installation requires planning during the initial build - not as a retro at the tail end.

 

 

From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bill Watson

Sent: Tuesday, May 31, 2011 12:12 PM

To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com

Subject: Re: cabin top filling sealing

 

What was your incompatibility experience John?  Sounds wrenching.  



On 5/31/2011 12:02 AM, John Gonzalez wrote: 

A correction to this email, Wonderfil is not compatible with all products. It would be best to stick with Loehle products if you are to use Wonderfil. 

 



As for the cowling, those are not pinholes, those are craters. These are better filled with a filler not simply primer IMO, even if the Loehle literature shows Wonderfil as a method of filling these craters.



Date: Mon, 30 May 2011 16:20:00 -0400

From: Mauledriver(at)nc.rr.com (Mauledriver(at)nc.rr.com)

To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com (rv10-list(at)matronics.com)

Subject: Re: cabin top filling sealing



I used Lohle's Wonderfil product and liked it a lot.



What I did on my fiberglass (cowling, top, etc) is start with Wonderfil.  It goes on easy like a paste wax.  You rub it in and wipe it off.  It would seem to be compatible with anything you might put over it.  And in fact, is the easiest way to fill any pinholes you may have missed.  Just rub a little on to fill the hold and spray whatever you are spraying  on top.  The paint soaks into the Wonderfill and you can move on.  After the Wonderfil, I used a 'high fill' primer  product.  



But when you get to the primer stage, it's a good time to make a decision about paint.  DIY or farm it out?  What brand?  I chose to use a Dupont high fill primer (1480S) that was specifically compatible with most Dupont finishing products including the Imron Elite line I ended up using.  Lohle has a high fill primer product but I decided not to use it because I wasn't planning to stay with the Lohle line of products.  



If you are farming out your painting, you could leave the pinholes and priming to your painter I would assume.  They might even prefer it that way... but I don't really know.



Bill "found some hangar space at  a hard surface airport for final assembly and flight" Watson



I know this has been discussed before but what is the current thinking on a material for filling and sealing the cabin top before application of primer.Please share your experiences with ease of use and finishing -thanks Jim



 

  	  Quote: 	
		    arget="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-Listhttp://forums.matronics.com="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution    	


  	  Quote: 	
		   [/b] 	
http://forums.matronics.com[/url]         - List Contribution Web generous nbsp;                        --> http://www.matronics.com/c=[/b] [/quote]0

 [quote][b]

indigoonlatigo(at)msn.com
Guest

Posted: Tue May 31, 2011 7:33 pm Post subject: cabin top filling sealing

Below is my lost email reply to Bill's Watson. After clicking twenty times or more on my sent tab and bringing up the email John Cox's sent today, my email finally showed up. My sent box also showed JOhn Cox's email as being sent yesterday, in addition to today.

  

 Kind of like working upside down under the instrument panel with your shoulders contourted into the most uncomfortable position to the point of pain, just to tighten that screw...persistence pays off.

  

 John G.

   From: indigoonlatigo(at)msn.com

To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com

Subject: RE: cabin top filling sealing

Date: Tue, 31 May 2011 13:48:39 -0700



   .ExternalClass .ecxhmmessage P {padding:0px;} .ExternalClass body.ecxhmmessage {font-size:10pt;font-family:Tahoma;}   Hi Bill,

 

My experience was not asking Mr. Loehle himself about how the wonderfil works. I told his wife what I was doing and she didn't think it would be a problem.

 

I used UV Smooth and Prime. UV S&P is a water based product and does not work in the same chemistry of the poly ester and maybe epoxy primers. I am not saying that one can't spray these primers on top of UV S&P, you just can't do it until the S&P is cured. 

 

As I understand it, Wonderfil is a thickened/ concentrated version of the paint carrier molecule. In the application of it in this manner it is simply a wetting agent. 

 

The problem IMO with using it on the cowl as Loehle shows in his manual is that those defects in the cowl outer surface are not small pin holes, they are craters. Even though the manual states to whip it on liberaly and then whip off the excess, these voids on the surface are filled with a large amount of the wonderfil. I seriously doubt that sraying a layer of primer over the top of it would allow the primer to thoroughly mix with that mass of wonderfil beneath. I like to think of it as pouring epoxy resin into a cup and then adding the hardner into the cup and maybe making one or two stir strokes with a tongue depressor. The result is that only the two chemicals that immediately touch will react, leaving everything below that not cured. 

 

So I Wonderfilled the the cowl surface and then whipped off the excess and then rolled the UV S&P. It was like painting over a pitted waxed surface, bonded in some spots(where there was no Wonderfil), enough to cause serious grief in later removal and totally not bonded in others.

 

I am not saying that Wonderfil does not work on pin holes, I am saying I would not use it on the rough surface of the cowl and not with other products that do not use this chemical for the carrier molecule. 

 

The cowl has a problem in the production of it. The outer glass making up the skin pulls away from the mold once the Nomex honeycomb is added making only the glass which is on contact with this honeycomb actually stay pushed against the mold. The result is the huge craters I refer to. 

 

To correct this, one needs to add a lot of effort making up for the lack there of on the producers side.

 

No matter what system used to correct for this, speaking from the experience of an anal retentive dentist, how one effectively roughens and gets a true bond to the bottoms of these craters is a complete mistery???????????????

 

Corn blaster or sandblaster would work great, but would destroy the part and or add the weight of the beach to the front end of your airplane.

 

I removed all the UV S&P and then made a slurry of chopped glass and epoxy, squeggying it over the cowl and then after cure, sanding it out again. From there I leveled it out with Epoxy and Micro ballons

 

  Date: Tue, 31 May 2011 15:11:58 -0400

From: Mauledriver(at)nc.rr.com

To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com

Subject: Re: cabin top filling sealing



What was your incompatibility experience John?  Sounds wrenching.  



I stand corrected in that no product is compatible with all other products.  While I felt comfortable using the Wonderfil - I would not have used the Lohle "UV blocker filler" unless I was sticking to the Lohle line for priming and finishing.



The way I understand the process at this point pieces like the top and the cowling and the pants is this

Step 1,2,3: Filling.  First get the pinholes before any other filling (do it before any filling because if you fill over a pinhole surface, then sand thru the fill, you may re-expose the pinholes).  There were plenty of them on both my green top and pink cowling.  I used Wonderfil and recommend it, especially for this initial pass.  Then fill in any major depressions with an epoxy based filler.  Could be a micro mix.  Superfil is faster and easier with an easily sandable result.  Just 1 or 2 passes here.  Then do the rest of the minor filling with a polyester filler like Metal Glaze.  Easy to use because it sets immediately and sands very easily.  You might do a dozen passes on a piece but they go fast.  Some people will advise not to mix polyester fillers and epoxy.  The pros do it and for very good reason;  it's efficient.  Then spray on a 'high fill' primer with some tint.  Here, brand selection probably starts to be important.  Tt probably makes sense to use a filler that is compatible with the primer/topcoat you plan to use.   In any case,  Lohle does theirs in black, my Dupont product is gray.  Color helps you see stuff so don't use white.  A 'tell' coat of black can be used for this too - I didn't.  Sand it down, blow it off, and see what's left to do.  I had a few pinholes left which I hit again with Wonderfil just before spraying more fill or starting the ....  



Step 4: Prime:  Here you want to have chosen a product compatible with your topcoat and plan on  spraying everything with it - aluminum & plastic.  If this is a DIY paint job proceed.  If this is going to be farmed out, stop and think about how much of steps 1,2, and 3 the paint shop should do.  Maybe they should be doing all of it.  What do others think?  If DIY, follow the data sheets have good ventilation AND a fresh system for epoxies, polyurethanes and probably anything else.



Step 5: Topcoat - I took a idiosyncratic path - worked well but not sure how I'd do it next time.  Just stay compatiable and follow the spec sheets. Coatings are sophisticated chemistry these days and not to be played with or guessed at for good results.



Previously, someone pointed out here  that Wonderfil seems to be a re-packaging of another product that is available under other labels.



The spray on Filler selection for the fiberglass would seem to be key.  There are lots of 'high fill' primers out there with various filling/sanding properties.  I was happy with mine for the most part but had some challenges.  When it was humid, the filler would 'cheese' when sanded and immediatly clog the sandpaper.  Though I had a fully ventilated spray booth and fresh air breathing eqipment, I found that I wanted full protection when sanding a week after spraying.  Fumes came off the filler for a couple of weeks and they weren't pleasant.  In any case, filling and sanding the big parts is a lot of work.... or not.

On 5/31/2011 12:02 AM, John Gonzalez wrote:  [quote]  .ExternalClass .ecxhmmessage P {padding:0px;} .ExternalClass body.ecxhmmessage {font-size:10pt;font-family:Tahoma;}  A correction to this email, Wonderfil is not compatible with all products. It would be best to stick with Loehle products if you are to use Wonderfil.  



 As for the cowling, those are not pinholes, those are craters. These are better filled with a filler not simply primer IMO, even if the Loehle literature shows Wonderfil as a method of filling these craters.



  Date: Mon, 30 May 2011 16:20:00 -0400

From: Mauledriver(at)nc.rr.com (Mauledriver(at)nc.rr.com)

To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com (rv10-list(at)matronics.com)

Subject: Re: cabin top filling sealing



I used Lohle's Wonderfil product and liked it a lot.



What I did on my fiberglass (cowling, top, etc) is start with Wonderfil.  It goes on easy like a paste wax.  You rub it in and wipe it off.  It would seem to be compatible with anything you might put over it.  And in fact, is the easiest way to fill any pinholes you may have missed.  Just rub a little on to fill the hold and spray whatever you are spraying  on top.  The paint soaks into the Wonderfill and you can move on.  After the Wonderfil, I used a 'high fill' primer  product.  



But when you get to the primer stage, it's a good time to make a decision about paint.  DIY or farm it out?  What brand?  I chose to use a Dupont high fill primer (1480S) that was specifically compatible with most Dupont finishing products including the Imron Elite line I ended up using.  Lohle has a high fill primer product but I decided not to use it because I wasn't planning to stay with the Lohle line of products.  



If you are farming out your painting, you could leave the pinholes and priming to your painter I would assume.  They might even prefer it that way... but I don't really know.



Bill "found some hangar space at  a hard surface airport for final assembly and flight" Watson



  	  Quote: 	
		   I know this has been discussed before but what is the current thinking on a material for filling and sealing the cabin top before application of primer.Please share your experiences with ease of use and finishing -thanks Jim







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