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M14P and Avgas 100LL vs Mogas 98UL + lead

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hammerhead

Joined: 02 Oct 2010
Posts: 5

Posted: Wed Jun 01, 2011 3:10 am Post subject: M14P and Avgas 100LL vs Mogas 98UL + lead

Hey guys



100LL vs 98UL + lead additive. There are so many views on this. What is your knowledge? 



Engines requiring leaded gasoline usually take damage to the valve seats if they are run on unleaded fuel. When it comes to mogas the issue of ethanol being added to mogas often arises as it can cause vapor lock on altitude.



According to the gasoline company I have spoken to they do not add any ethanol at all to their 98 octane mogas. It is, however, unleaded. Well, lead additive can be purchased and added. So running an M14P on 98UL + lead additive should not be a problem, right?



Regards, Henrik

jan.mevis(at)informavia.b
Guest

Posted: Wed Jun 01, 2011 5:21 am Post subject: M14P and Avgas 100LL vs Mogas 98UL + lead

If you can find and buy the tetra-ethyl lead. And add it correctly.



Jan



[quote] --

ssssskippy

Joined: 02 May 2010
Posts: 58

Posted: Wed Jun 01, 2011 6:12 am Post subject: M14P and Avgas 100LL vs Mogas 98UL + lead

Hi 



The best way:



- Fill with 100LL one time per five full tank. So you drop some lead on the

valves.



- Use only unleaded 98, in fact no ethanol in it, you can verify it by using

a glass tube with water.



- Don't use winter mogas98 in summer, and no summer mogas98 in winter to

avoid vapour lock.



- Don't let a 100LL and mogas98 mix in the tanks for a long time (more than

1 month) to avoid crystals precipitation.

My two cents



Olivier



-----Message d'origine-----

De : owner-yak-list-server(at)matronics.com

[mailto:owner-yak-list-server(at)matronics.com] De la part de Jan Mevis

Envoyé : mercredi 1 juin 2011 15:18

À : yak-list(at)matronics.com

Objet : RE: M14P and Avgas 100LL vs Mogas 98UL + lead






If you can find and buy the tetra-ethyl lead. And add it correctly.



Jan



[quote] --

jan.mevis(at)informavia.b
Guest

Posted: Wed Jun 01, 2011 11:29 am Post subject: M14P and Avgas 100LL vs Mogas 98UL + lead

One thing is certain: Avgas 100LL is the same EVERYWHERE, always a warranted

quality and composition. I don't know if that is also true for mogas.

In practice, cargas is also often used in Europe, but there can be a

significant difference between different brands. Also you do not really know

what additives have been added. 



So if you don't use avgas, it'll always be a kind of a gamble.



Is there a real money saving by burning cargas/mogas? I doubt it since

you'll spend the money saved on an earlier overhaul. I've seen Yaks

returning to base with an engine that did not run smooth. After checking it

all, finally the fuel (cargas) was drained, and avgas refilled. And the next

flight was without problems.



Only my 2 cents,



Jan



[quote] --

radiopicture

Joined: 23 Jun 2008
Posts: 263

Posted: Wed Jun 01, 2011 12:27 pm Post subject: M14P and Avgas 100LL vs Mogas 98UL + lead

I think what everyone's worrying about is the eventual discontinuance of 100LL, not saving a few cents.





On Jun 1, 2011, at 3:25 PM, Jan Mevis wrote:



[quote] 

 

 One thing is certain: Avgas 100LL is the same EVERYWHERE, always a warranted

 quality and composition. I don't know if that is also true for mogas.

 In practice, cargas is also often used in Europe, but there can be a

 significant difference between different brands. Also you do not really know

 what additives have been added. 

 

 So if you don't use avgas, it'll always be a kind of a gamble.

 

 Is there a real money saving by burning cargas/mogas? I doubt it since

 you'll spend the money saved on an earlier overhaul. I've seen Yaks

 returning to base with an engine that did not run smooth. After checking it

 all, finally the fuel (cargas) was drained, and avgas refilled. And the next

 flight was without problems.

 

 Only my 2 cents,

 

 Jan

 

> --

tigeryak18t

Joined: 26 Sep 2009
Posts: 233
Location: PARIS FRANCE

Posted: Wed Jun 01, 2011 1:16 pm Post subject: M14P and Avgas 100LL vs Mogas 98UL + lead

Already a big topic on the list..

The companies says that they do not add ethanol and it is partially thrue. In fact there are between 0 and ten percent of Ethanol because they wash the pipes between two productions.

  But we are running on 98 without additive since one year without any problems. Just atke care of filtering your fuel.

But if you want an additive, the best one would be to add about 10% of 100LL. Low Lead is very high lead today !!!!

  

In the eastern countries some use 95 with Ethanol. Their principle is that the time between overhaul is so small that the seals will be changed before wearing.



I run on 98 since more than one year in my 18T. But this is my own reponsability.

  

Best regards



Didier

2011/6/1 hammerhead <henrik.andoff(at)had.se (henrik.andoff(at)had.se)>

 	  Quote: 	
		    --> Yak-List message posted by: "hammerhead" <henrik.andoff(at)had.se (henrik.andoff(at)had.se)>

 

 Hey guys

 

 100LL vs 98UL + lead additive. There are so many views on this. What is your knowledge?

 

 Engines requiring leaded gasoline usually take damage to the valve seats if they are run on unleaded fuel. When it comes to mogas the issue of ethanol being added to mogas often arises as it can cause vapor lock on altitude.

   

 According to the gasoline company I have spoken to they do not add any ethanol at all to their 98 octane mogas. It is, however, unleaded. Well, lead additive can be purchased and added. So running an M14P on 98UL + lead additive should not be a problem, right?

   

 Regards, Henrik

 

 

 

 

 Read this topic online here:

 

 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=341704#341704

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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 rget="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Yak-List

 ===========

 http://forums.matronics.com

 ===========

 le, List Admin.

 ="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution

 ===========

 

 

 

 	


-- 

Didier BLOUZARD

didier.blouzard(at)gmail.com (didier.blouzard(at)gmail.com)

0624243672

  [quote][b]

_________________
Didier Tiger YAK18T
Member of Commemorative Air Force
French Wing

jan.mevis(at)informavia.b
Guest

Posted: Wed Jun 01, 2011 11:39 pm Post subject: M14P and Avgas 100LL vs Mogas 98UL + lead

Indeed that IS the problem and by consequence, some nice oldtimer planes

won't fly anymore. 



Our authorities decided that AVGAS 100LL will be ruled out (in Europe by

2017). It's not certain yet how they'll do it in practice. Probably by

starting taxation to "virtually unpayable". 



Then there's not enough demand anymore, so the few remaining oil refineries

that still produce AVGAS 100LL will switch their production lines to other

fuels. And the only factory in the world that still produces TEL, will also

start making something else. 



Also: most military and commercial planes do not need avgas, so what is the

consumption of AVGAS 100LL? Less than 2 % and declining every year. I am

afraid that there 'll be not enough "economical momentum" to continue

producing avgas 100LL.



 

Jan



[quote] --

ssssskippy

Joined: 02 May 2010
Posts: 58

Posted: Thu Jun 02, 2011 12:57 am Post subject: M14P and Avgas 100LL vs Mogas 98UL + lead

The good news is that a new General aviation fuel Will be dispatch on the GA field in the two or free next years.



It's right that avgas is a low needed fuel but a great value for the petroleum firmes!!!!



The bad news is that this fuel will stay very expensive:-(



If you are using mogas98 without alcohol.... You have to enjoy for the last moments because this mogas will disapear In the five next years too....



Olivier 

Le 2 juin 2011 Ã  09:36, "Jan Mevis" <jan.mevis(at)informavia.be> a Ã©crit :



[quote] 

 

 Indeed that IS the problem and by consequence, some nice oldtimer planes

 won't fly anymore. 

 

 Our authorities decided that AVGAS 100LL will be ruled out (in Europe by

 2017). It's not certain yet how they'll do it in practice. Probably by

 starting taxation to "virtually unpayable". 

 

 Then there's not enough demand anymore, so the few remaining oil refineries

 that still produce AVGAS 100LL will switch their production lines to other

 fuels. And the only factory in the world that still produces TEL, will also

 start making something else. 

 

 Also: most military and commercial planes do not need avgas, so what is the

 consumption of AVGAS 100LL? Less than 2 % and declining every year. I am

 afraid that there 'll be not enough "economical momentum" to continue

 producing avgas 100LL.

 

 

 Jan

 

> --

jcolquit(at)law.ua.edu
Guest

Posted: Thu Jun 02, 2011 8:04 am Post subject: M14P and Avgas 100LL vs Mogas 98UL + lead

Depending on system components, aren’t there other issues?   

   

I once swapped to auto fuel in my RV-3A experimental. The engine ran fine and I was saving cash until I started getting leaks. My metal tanks had been sloshed to prevent leaks; hoses, o-rings and seals were fabricated out of materials not so impervious to additives in the auto fuel. I resealed the tanks and replaced some other components, swapped back to avgas, and had no further problems.   

   

Perhaps YAK and CJ systems are impervious to auto fuel additives -- I haven’t looked or asked -- but if one has added after-market items such as bladder tanks, float valves, hoses, o-rings, and seals, it would pay to be sure they are impervious auto fuel use.  

   

At least, I know I’ll think of more than just engine performance and costs. Avgas might prove cheaper, at least for as long as it’s available.  

   

FWIW  

   

Joe  

   

CJ6-A N420RB / GlaStar  

      [quote][b]

jan.mevis(at)informavia.b
Guest

Posted: Thu Jun 02, 2011 11:12 pm Post subject: M14P and Avgas 100LL vs Mogas 98UL + lead

That is absolutely correct. 

 

Jan

 

From: owner-yak-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-yak-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Joseph Colquitt

Sent: donderdag 2 juni 2011 6:05

To: yak-list(at)matronics.com

Subject: Re: M14P and Avgas 100LL vs Mogas 98UL + lead

 

Depending on system components, aren’t there other issues? 

 

I once swapped to auto fuel in my RV-3A experimental. The engine ran fine and I was saving cash until I started getting leaks. My metal tanks had been sloshed to prevent leaks; hoses, o-rings and seals were fabricated out of materials not so impervious to additives in the auto fuel. I resealed the tanks and replaced some other components, swapped back to avgas, and had no further problems. 

 

Perhaps YAK and CJ systems are impervious to auto fuel additives -- I haven’t looked or asked -- but if one has added after-market items such as bladder tanks, float valves, hoses, o-rings, and seals, it would pay to be sure they are impervious auto fuel use.

 

At least, I know I’ll think of more than just engine performance and costs. Avgas might prove cheaper, at least for as long as it’s available.

 

FWIW

 

Joe

 

CJ6-A N420RB / GlaStar 	  Quote: 	
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bwade154(at)yahoo.com
Guest

Posted: Fri Jun 03, 2011 4:42 am Post subject: M14P and Avgas 100LL vs Mogas 98UL + lead

There was an old mechanic at the airport that shared with me a little experiment with two styrofoam cup's he put 100LL in one and car gas in the other, the car gas ate through that cup in less than a minute 100LL will stay there till it evaporates. Try it there is a difference it is an eye opener

 Bill Wade



 

   From: Joseph Colquitt <jcolquit(at)law.ua.edu>

To: yak-list(at)matronics.com

Sent: Thu, June 2, 2011 12:05:07 PM

Subject: Re: M14P and Avgas 100LL vs Mogas 98UL + lead



      

Depending on system components, arenâ€™t there other issues?  

  

I once swapped to auto fuel in my RV-3A experimental. The engine ran fine and I was saving cash until I started getting leaks. My metal tanks had been sloshed to prevent leaks; hoses, o-rings and seals were fabricated out of materials not so impervious to additives in the auto fuel. I resealed the tanks and replaced some other components, swapped back to avgas, and had no further problems.  

  

Perhaps YAK and CJ systems are impervious to auto fuel additives -- I havenâ€™t looked or asked -- but if one has added after-market items such as bladder tanks, float valves, hoses, o-rings, and seals, it would pay to be sure they are impervious auto fuel use. 

  

At least, I know Iâ€™ll think of more than just engine performance and costs. Avgas might prove cheaper, at least for as long as itâ€™s available. 

  

FWIW 

  

Joe 

  

CJ6-A N420RB / GlaStar

[quote][b][b]

cjpilot710(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Fri Jun 03, 2011 5:01 am Post subject: M14P and Avgas 100LL vs Mogas 98UL + lead

Lets face it, the EPA and their elk (tree huggers, etc) will continue to  put humanity at peril.

 Jim "Pappy" Goolsby

  

  In a message dated 6/3/2011 8:42:55 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time,  bwade154(at)yahoo.com writes:

  	  Quote: 	
		        There was an old mechanic at the airport that shared with me a little    experiment with two styrofoam cup's he put 100LL in one and car gas in the    other, the car gas ate through that cup in less than a minute 100LL will stay    there till it evaporates. Try it there is a difference it is an eye    opener

   Bill Wade



   

         From: Joseph Colquitt    <jcolquit(at)law.ua.edu>

To: yak-list(at)matronics.com

Sent: Thu, June 2, 2011 12:05:07    PM

Subject: Re: Yak-List:    M14P and Avgas 100LL vs Mogas 98UL + lead



            

Depending on system components, arenâ€™t there other issues?       

    

I once swapped to auto fuel in my RV-3A experimental. The    engine ran fine and I was saving cash until I started getting leaks. My metal    tanks had been sloshed to prevent leaks; hoses, o-rings and seals were    fabricated out of materials not so impervious to additives in the auto fuel. I    resealed the tanks and replaced some other components, swapped back to avgas,    and had no further problems.    

    

Perhaps YAK and CJ systems are impervious to auto fuel    additives -- I havenâ€™t looked or asked -- but if one has added after-market    items such as bladder tanks, float valves, hoses, o-rings, and seals, it would    pay to be sure they are impervious auto fuel use.   

    

At least, I know Iâ€™ll think of more than just engine    performance and costs. Avgas might prove cheaper, at least for as long as itâ€™s    available.   

    

FWIW   

    

Joe   

    

CJ6-A N420RB / GlaStar

 	  Quote: 	
		  [b]



====================================

="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Yak-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Yak-List

====================================

ms.matronics.com/">http://forums.matronics.com

====================================

tp://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/contribution

====================================



	
[/b] 	


  [quote][b]

radiopicture

Joined: 23 Jun 2008
Posts: 263

Posted: Fri Jun 03, 2011 11:14 am Post subject: M14P and Avgas 100LL vs Mogas 98UL + lead

That does it! I'm removing all of the styrofoam components from my plane!



J/K Bill. 



On Jun 3, 2011, at 8:37 AM, bill wade wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  There was an old mechanic at the airport that shared with me a little experiment with two styrofoam cup's he put 100LL in one and car gas in the other, the car gas ate through that cup in less than a minute 100LL will stay there till it evaporates. Try it there is a difference it is an eye opener

Bill Wade

From: Joseph Colquitt <jcolquit(at)law.ua.edu (jcolquit(at)law.ua.edu)>

To: yak-list(at)matronics.com (yak-list(at)matronics.com)

Sent: Thu, June 2, 2011 12:05:07 PM

Subject: Re: M14P and Avgas 100LL vs Mogas 98UL + lead



Depending on system components, aren’t there other issues?



 I once swapped to auto fuel in my RV-3A experimental. The engine ran fine and I was saving cash until I started getting leaks. My metal tanks had been sloshed to prevent leaks; hoses, o-rings and seals were fabricated out of materials not so impervious to additives in the auto fuel. I resealed the tanks and replaced some other components, swapped back to avgas, and had no further problems.



 Perhaps YAK and CJ systems are impervious to auto fuel additives -- I haven’t looked or asked -- but if one has added after-market items such as bladder tanks, float valves, hoses, o-rings, and seals, it would pay to be sure they are impervious auto fuel use.



 At least, I know I’ll think of more than just engine performance and costs. Avgas might prove cheaper, at least for as long as it’s available.



 FWIW



 Joe



 CJ6-A N420RB / GlaStar



 	  Quote: 	
		  



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