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robin(at)PaintTheWeb.com
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 Posted: Fri Jun 03, 2011 10:40 am Post subject: High Oil Temp Issues - RV-8A |
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After 20+ hours of flying in which time we were resolving a Fuel Injector issue and a few avionics/electrical issues we are in good shape everywhere but Oil Temperatures which are also driving up our Cylinder Head Temps.
We are running:
· IO-360 200 Hp standard compression
· James Cowl
· Metal Plenum (home built)
· New RV-10 size oil cooler (designed for 260 Hp)
· Custom oil cooler plenum
Photo below.
The issue is we are seeing oil temps up to 225 when OAT’s are in the low 80’s running about 23/2300, 3,000’. The CHT’s are being driven up by the high OAT’s to mid 390’s.
The oil cooler plenum is a BIG 4” inlet with a smooth ramp down to the oversized (260 Hp) oil cooler.
While we have not been trying to resolve this for very long on the 8A but we have a great deal of experience with oil temp issues (and the James Cowl) on our RV-10. The long & short of the -10 issue is the inlet rings are too small to properly cool the CHT/Oil. The only reason I went with the James cowl AGAIN on the 8A was the MUCH larger fleet of flying 6/7/8/9’s with James cowls & few reports of cowl design issues for these models.
We have toyed with the idea of swapping out this oversized oil cooler for a Niagara unit but I don’t see how we are going to find 25 degrees with that swap as this is already an oversized cooler to begin with.
It would be pretty tight but doable to relocate the oil cooler closer to the rear baffle area but again I don’t see getting 25 degrees from that.
The temp issues are the only remaining issues to resolve. Any thoughts would be appreciated.
Robin Marks
RV-4 Sold Standard Vans Cowl - No Temp Issues
RV-6A Sold Standard Vans Cowl - No Temp Issues
RV-10 225 Hours James Cowl & Plenum – Significant Temp Issues
RV-4 25 Hours James Cowl & Metal Plenum – Significant Temp Issues
[img]cid:image001.jpg(at)01CC21E0.7BC041D0[/img]
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Neal.George(at)hurlburt.a
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| Posted: Fri Jun 03, 2011 11:24 am Post subject: High Oil Temp Issues - RV-8A |
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Robin -
I hate to point to the obvious, but:
All baffle joints, seams, edges, holes, penetrations sealed?
Vernatherm working properly?
No blockage in oil cooler or lines?
No air trapped in the oil cooler high corners?
neal
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vshimsl(at)live.com
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| Posted: Fri Jun 03, 2011 11:40 am Post subject: High Oil Temp Issues - RV-8A |
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A couple of simple checks:
<![if !supportLists]>1. <![endif]>Your engine may be equipped with an oil cooler bypass valve (forgot exact terminology) that may be faulty. If it is, the flow of oil to the cooler would be greatly reduced. It should open at I believe 185F. My AeroSport 180 has one.
<![if !supportLists]>2. <![endif]>If these readings are erratic at all you may have forgot to run a ground strap from the engine to the airframe.
Vince H.
WA/ID USA
N8432 80hrs
From: owner-rv8-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv8-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Robin Marks
Sent: Friday, June 03, 2011 11:38 AM
To: rv8-list(at)matronics.com; rv-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: High Oil Temp Issues - RV-8A
After 20+ hours of flying in which time we were resolving a Fuel Injector issue and a few avionics/electrical issues we are in good shape everywhere but Oil Temperatures which are also driving up our Cylinder Head Temps.
We are running:
<![if !supportLists]>· <![endif]>IO-360 200 Hp standard compression
<![if !supportLists]>· <![endif]>James Cowl
<![if !supportLists]>· <![endif]>Metal Plenum (home built)
<![if !supportLists]>· <![endif]>New RV-10 size oil cooler (designed for 260 Hp)
<![if !supportLists]>· <![endif]>Custom oil cooler plenum
Photo below.
The issue is we are seeing oil temps up to 225 when OAT’s are in the low 80’s running about 23/2300, 3,000’. The CHT’s are being driven up by the high OAT’s to mid 390’s.
The oil cooler plenum is a BIG 4” inlet with a smooth ramp down to the oversized (260 Hp) oil cooler.
While we have not been trying to resolve this for very long on the 8A but we have a great deal of experience with oil temp issues (and the James Cowl) on our RV-10. The long & short of the -10 issue is the inlet rings are too small to properly cool the CHT/Oil. The only reason I went with the James cowl AGAIN on the 8A was the MUCH larger fleet of flying 6/7/8/9’s with James cowls & few reports of cowl design issues for these models.
We have toyed with the idea of swapping out this oversized oil cooler for a Niagara unit but I don’t see how we are going to find 25 degrees with that swap as this is already an oversized cooler to begin with.
It would be pretty tight but doable to relocate the oil cooler closer to the rear baffle area but again I don’t see getting 25 degrees from that.
The temp issues are the only remaining issues to resolve. Any thoughts would be appreciated.
Robin Marks
RV-4 Sold Standard Vans Cowl - No Temp Issues
RV-6A Sold Standard Vans Cowl - No Temp Issues
RV-10 225 Hours James Cowl & Plenum – Significant Temp Issues
RV-4 25 Hours James Cowl & Metal Plenum – Significant Temp Issues
[img]cid:image001.jpg(at)01CC21EA.55AB8630[/img]
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n223rv(at)wolflakeairport
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| Posted: Fri Jun 03, 2011 11:51 am Post subject: High Oil Temp Issues - RV-8A |
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Not sure this will solve the issue, but it might help..
http://www.rvtraining.com/html/atp/html/engine__parts.html
In our first RV-10, we had high oil temps. We went with this cooler and added extra louvers (increased the exit area) and dropped about 20 degrees....
Let us know what you find!
-Mike Kraus
Sent from my iPhone
On Jun 3, 2011, at 2:37 PM, Robin Marks <robin(at)PaintTheWeb.com (robin(at)PaintTheWeb.com)> wrote:
[quote]
After 20+ hours of flying in which time we were resolving a Fuel Injector issue and a few avionics/electrical issues we are in good shape everywhere but Oil Temperatures which are also driving up our Cylinder Head Temps.
We are running:
· IO-360 200 Hp standard compression
· James Cowl
· Metal Plenum (home built)
· New RV-10 size oil cooler (designed for 260 Hp)
· Custom oil cooler plenum
Photo below.
The issue is we are seeing oil temps up to 225 when OAT’s are in the low 80’s running about 23/2300, 3,000’. The CHT’s are being driven up by the high OAT’s to mid 390’s.
The oil cooler plenum is a BIG 4” inlet with a smooth ramp down to the oversized (260 Hp) oil cooler.
While we have not been trying to resolve this for very long on the 8A but we have a great deal of experience with oil temp issues (and the James Cowl) on our RV-10. The long & short of the -10 issue is the inlet rings are too small to properly cool the CHT/Oil. The only reason I went with the James cowl AGAIN on the 8A was the MUCH larger fleet of flying 6/7/8/9’s with James cowls & few reports of cowl design issues for these models.
We have toyed with the idea of swapping out this oversized oil cooler for a Niagara unit but I don’t see how we are going to find 25 degrees with that swap as this is already an oversized cooler to begin with.
It would be pretty tight but doable to relocate the oil cooler closer to the rear baffle area but again I don’t see getting 25 degrees from that.
The temp issues are the only remaining issues to resolve. Any thoughts would be appreciated.
Robin Marks
RV-4 Sold Standard Vans Cowl - No Temp Issues
RV-6A Sold Standard Vans Cowl - No Temp Issues
RV-10 225 Hours James Cowl & Plenum – Significant Temp Issues
RV-4 25 Hours James Cowl & Metal Plenum – Significant Temp Issues
<image001.jpg>
[b]
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http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV8-List |
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carl.froehlich(at)verizon
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| Posted: Fri Jun 03, 2011 12:06 pm Post subject: High Oil Temp Issues - RV-8A |
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A couple of thoughts:
<![if !supportLists]>1. <![endif]>I assume you have a 200+HP engine with perhaps high compression pistons. You are starting out with a oil cooling challenge as (my understanding) oil has higher cooling load on angle head engines as compared with heat removed via air passing around the cylinders.
<![if !supportLists]>2. <![endif]>I notice you don’t have ceramic coating on your exhaust pipes. This helps move heat out of the cowl.
<![if !supportLists]>3. <![endif]>While the size of the air hose feed to the cooler is a factor, the differential pressure across the oil cooler still tends to drive the actual air flow. Assuming you make no changes to increase the plenum pressure or reduce the aft lower cowl pressure, then you may consider moving the cooler to the lowest area possible and angling the air outflow more toward the exit ramp (which is smaller on the 8a than the  . On my 8A I have the cooler mounted on the firewall a little lower than what you have, airflow path is vertical (has a straight shot to the exit ramp).
<![if !supportLists]>4. <![endif]>The cooler itself has a lot to do with the how much differential pressure is needed to get a certain amount of air flow. Larger air passages allow more airflow but less oil cooling surface area, and vice versa. One model may work better than another in a particular plane. If you have opportunity to swap in a different oil cooler as a test, you may get some useful data.
Carl Froehlich
RV-8A, 650 hrs, standard cowl and the old, small Positech cooler with fair results (temps always below 220).
RV-10, fuselage prep for paint, James cowl with big inlet rings, larger cowl exhaust cross section area, changed oil cooler and oil cooler mount, and shielding to stop the heat muff from dumping hot air onto the fuel pump.
From: owner-rv8-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv8-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Robin Marks
Sent: Friday, June 03, 2011 2:38 PM
To: rv8-list(at)matronics.com; rv-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: High Oil Temp Issues - RV-8A
After 20+ hours of flying in which time we were resolving a Fuel Injector issue and a few avionics/electrical issues we are in good shape everywhere but Oil Temperatures which are also driving up our Cylinder Head Temps.
We are running:
<![if !supportLists]>· <![endif]>IO-360 200 Hp standard compression
<![if !supportLists]>· <![endif]>James Cowl
<![if !supportLists]>· <![endif]>Metal Plenum (home built)
<![if !supportLists]>· <![endif]>New RV-10 size oil cooler (designed for 260 Hp)
<![if !supportLists]>· <![endif]>Custom oil cooler plenum
Photo below.
The issue is we are seeing oil temps up to 225 when OAT’s are in the low 80’s running about 23/2300, 3,000’. The CHT’s are being driven up by the high OAT’s to mid 390’s.
The oil cooler plenum is a BIG 4” inlet with a smooth ramp down to the oversized (260 Hp) oil cooler.
While we have not been trying to resolve this for very long on the 8A but we have a great deal of experience with oil temp issues (and the James Cowl) on our RV-10. The long & short of the -10 issue is the inlet rings are too small to properly cool the CHT/Oil. The only reason I went with the James cowl AGAIN on the 8A was the MUCH larger fleet of flying 6/7/8/9’s with James cowls & few reports of cowl design issues for these models.
We have toyed with the idea of swapping out this oversized oil cooler for a Niagara unit but I don’t see how we are going to find 25 degrees with that swap as this is already an oversized cooler to begin with.
It would be pretty tight but doable to relocate the oil cooler closer to the rear baffle area but again I don’t see getting 25 degrees from that.
The temp issues are the only remaining issues to resolve. Any thoughts would be appreciated.
Robin Marks
RV-4 Sold Standard Vans Cowl - No Temp Issues
RV-6A Sold Standard Vans Cowl - No Temp Issues
RV-10 225 Hours James Cowl & Plenum – Significant Temp Issues
RV-4 25 Hours James Cowl & Metal Plenum – Significant Temp Issues
[img]cid:image001.jpg(at)01CC2201.4EAC5410[/img]
| | - The Matronics RV8-List Email Forum - | | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV8-List |
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alan(at)airweigh.com.au
Guest
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| Posted: Fri Jun 03, 2011 2:00 pm Post subject: High Oil Temp Issues - RV-8A |
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Robin,
I had the same trouble with my 8, went to extremes to check it out. The temp sensor was ok as far as I could check, changed oil coolers from baffle mounted to firewall with larger cooler to no avail. (etc. etc).
You do not say what your instrumentation is. Mine is the Dynon D10 and if you have a Dynon and have had it for a while, it may need the latest software update. The earlier software had an incorrect algorithm for a particulate sensor. I do not have time today to getup the books for details but you can find it all on Dynon's blog.
Cheers ..... Alan Searle ... RV8 1 80 hours.
On 04/06/2011, at 4:37 AM, Robin Marks wrote:
[quote]After 20+ hours of flying in which time we were resolving a Fuel Injector issue and a few avionics/electrical issues we are in good shape everywhere but Oil Temperatures which are also driving up our Cylinder Head Temps.
We are running:
· IO-360 200 Hp standard compression
· James Cowl
· Metal Plenum (home built)
· New RV-10 size oil cooler (designed for 260 Hp)
· Custom oil cooler plenum
Photo below.
The issue is we are seeing oil temps up to 225 when OAT’s are in the low 80’s running about 23/2300, 3,000’. The CHT’s are being driven up by the high OAT’s to mid 390’s.
The oil cooler plenum is a BIG 4” inlet with a smooth ramp down to the oversized (260 Hp) oil cooler.
While we have not been trying to resolve this for very long on the 8A but we have a great deal of experience with oil temp issues (and the James Cowl) on our RV-10. The long & short of the -10 issue is the inlet rings are too small to properly cool the CHT/Oil. The only reason I went with the James cowl AGAIN on the 8A was the MUCH larger fleet of flying 6/7/8/9’s with James cowls & few reports of cowl design issues for these models.
We have toyed with the idea of swapping out this oversized oil cooler for a Niagara unit but I don’t see how we are going to find 25 degrees with that swap as this is already an oversized cooler to begin with.
It would be pretty tight but doable to relocate the oil cooler closer to the rear baffle area but again I don’t see getting 25 degrees from that.
The temp issues are the only remaining issues to resolve. Any thoughts would be appreciated.
Robin Marks
RV-4 Sold Standard Vans Cowl - No Temp Issues
RV-6A Sold Standard Vans Cowl - No Temp Issues
RV-10 225 Hours James Cowl & Plenum – Significant Temp Issues
RV-4 25 Hours James Cowl & Metal Plenum – Significant Temp Issues
<image001.jpg>
[b]
| | - The Matronics RV8-List Email Forum - | | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
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robin(at)PaintTheWeb.com
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| Posted: Fri Jun 03, 2011 3:02 pm Post subject: High Oil Temp Issues - RV-8A |
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Thanks for all the replies so far.
To recap:
· Seams, joints, edges are sealed well.
· Vernatherm has been tested & working properly
· Double checked the oil lines for blockage etc... No issues.
· We drained the oil and filled again at oil change. Because the oil cooler is not inverted it is easy to load up with oil. We doubt there is air trapped in the cooler.
· No EMS issues and no grounding issues as all readings are stable and believable.
· System is Dual Garmin G3X EFIS/EMS
· Mag timing is dead nuts on. Other side is P-Mag (that runs amazing on P-Mag only)
· RE: the 2006 Oil Cooler I can attest to the quality of these coolers as I have the 2008 on my -10. It’s just a brute force way of solving this problem. I really doubt I can get 25 degrees out of the 2006.
· Re: ceramic coating on the exhaust. Never again… I have the beautiful Forsling Exhaust with ceramic coating on my -10 but the one LARGE drawback is I can’t get any Cabin Heat out of the exhaust which is amazing if you ask most -10 owners. Half heat can cook a small turkey.
Dave/Mike’s suggestion of increasing the outlet area and/or louvers may be a good way to go. That provided the most profound decrease in oil temps for our -10.
Thanks,
Robin
--
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Bubblehead
Joined: 26 Oct 2007
Posts: 48
Location: N. Richland Hills, TX
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| Posted: Sat Jun 04, 2011 4:09 am Post subject: Re: High Oil Temp Issues - RV-8A |
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With that huge cooler and big air duct you should be cooling like mad! You mention fuel injection issues. Are you sure you are not running lean?
I have an -8 and live in TX so similar or worse OATs. Standard baffles and slightly larger cooler on the baffle per plans. I sometimes see 210 oil and 405 CHT on a long climb but at 23/23 once in cruise I would expect 190 and 340 for temps.
Something is not right because there are hundreds or thousands of 8As out there with a lower capacity cooling system than yours flying in the heat without a problem.
| | - The Matronics RV8-List Email Forum - | | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
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_________________
John
Keller, TX
RV-8 N247TD |
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carl.froehlich(at)verizon
Guest
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| Posted: Sat Jun 04, 2011 6:10 am Post subject: High Oil Temp Issues - RV-8A |
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On the ceramic coating – I have this on my 8A as well as the 10 and recommend it.
To solve the “not enough cabin heat” problem you have on your 10, put a stainless steel pot scrubber in the heat muffs. The pad(s) adds a huge amount of heat transfer area and slows down the air speed and volume. This has two effects. You end up with cabin heat much hotter but at a lower volume – overall more heat. The second effect is you significantly reduce the amount of cooling air are you bleeding off the plenum and in summertime dumping right into the lower cowl area – thus reducing pressure in the plenum and adding pressure to the area you want at the lowest possible pressure to get the most cooling air through the engine and oil cooler.
Don’t worry, you still have plenty of air going through the cabin heat scat hoses to not overheat anything.
You may want to look at this on the 8A as a way to reduce air bleed from the plenum.
Carl
From: owner-rv8-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv8-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Robin Marks
Sent: Friday, June 03, 2011 6:58 PM
To: rv8-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: RE: High Oil Temp Issues - RV-8A
Thanks for all the replies so far.
To recap:
<![if !supportLists]>· <![endif]>Seams, joints, edges are sealed well.
<![if !supportLists]>· <![endif]>Vernatherm has been tested & working properly
<![if !supportLists]>· <![endif]>Double checked the oil lines for blockage etc... No issues.
<![if !supportLists]>· <![endif]>We drained the oil and filled again at oil change. Because the oil cooler is not inverted it is easy to load up with oil. We doubt there is air trapped in the cooler.
<![if !supportLists]>· <![endif]>No EMS issues and no grounding issues as all readings are stable and believable.
<![if !supportLists]>· <![endif]>System is Dual Garmin G3X EFIS/EMS
<![if !supportLists]>· <![endif]>Mag timing is dead nuts on. Other side is P-Mag (that runs amazing on P-Mag only)
<![if !supportLists]>· <![endif]>RE: the 2006 Oil Cooler I can attest to the quality of these coolers as I have the 2008 on my -10. It’s just a brute force way of solving this problem. I really doubt I can get 25 degrees out of the 2006.
<![if !supportLists]>· <![endif]>Re: ceramic coating on the exhaust. Never again… I have the beautiful Forsling Exhaust with ceramic coating on my -10 but the one LARGE drawback is I can’t get any Cabin Heat out of the exhaust which is amazing if you ask most -10 owners. Half heat can cook a small turkey.
Dave/Mike’s suggestion of increasing the outlet area and/or louvers may be a good way to go. That provided the most profound decrease in oil temps for our -10.
Thanks,
Robin
--
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robin(at)PaintTheWeb.com
Guest
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| Posted: Sat Jun 04, 2011 8:14 am Post subject: High Oil Temp Issues - RV-8A |
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Update
We removed some cylinder dams we had placed in & around some of the
cylinders and cleaned up a few things. High CHT's are no longer the issue
other than preferring a little better temp balance between the cylinders.
Oil Temps are our problem. I expect a significant portion of this will be
resolved once we open up the underside of the cowl. Just not enough outlet
area from what we can tell.
Thanks everyone!
Robin
--
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