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fvalarm(at)rapidnet.net
Guest

Posted: Wed Jun 01, 2011 9:50 pm Post subject: Brass bus bar

Bob,



Can you tell me how much current the 1/2" wide (.025 thick) brass bus bar

stock that B&C sells can comfortably handle?  It would be a short piece,

about 3 inches long if that makes a difference?



Bevan

RV7A

nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelect
Guest

Posted: Thu Jun 02, 2011 10:30 am Post subject: Brass bus bar

At 01:47 AM 6/2/2011, you wrote:

  	  Quote: 	
		  --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "B Tomm" <fvalarm(at)rapidnet.net>



  



 Bob,



 Can you tell me how much current the 1/2" wide (.025 thick) brass bus bar

 stock that B&C sells can comfortably handle?  It would be a short piece,

 about 3 inches long if that makes a difference? 	


   It will carry a LOT of current but it does

   have a significant temperature rise if subjected

   to starter currents.



   .025 is a bit skinny. I think all the brass

   (and copper) straps I've seen on airplanes is

   at least .050 if not thicker. See:



  http://aeroelectric.com/Pictures/Wiring_Technique/Contactor_Interconnect/ 



    Brass has a small fraction the electrical conductivity

    of copper. Look for a display like this:



 [img]cid:.0[/img]



   In your hardware store or hobby shop. I think it includes

   copper sheets in .025 which would be much better and

   probably adequate. 



   Also consider soldering up a short piece of welding

   cable with terminals of appropriate spacing.



  http://www.aeroelectric.com/articles/big_term.pdf



   Brass isn't out of the question . . . but it's

   not the best choice.



 

   Bob . . .

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dougshep

Joined: 22 Jul 2010
Posts: 7
Location: Santa Barbara, CA

Posted: Sat Jun 04, 2011 3:30 pm Post subject: Brass bus bar

If soldering is not necessary, Could a strip of Aluminum be used for the bus bar?

_________________
Doug Shepard, RV-9A

fvalarm(at)rapidnet.net
Guest

Posted: Sat Jun 04, 2011 6:06 pm Post subject: Brass bus bar

Thanks Bob,



I found a strip of stainless.  .028 thick X 3/4 wide.  I believe the

terminals of the BlueSea ANL holders are stainless.  I applied some terminal

conductive paste for corrosion control on the aluminum ring terminals.  The

Stainless strip connects the two ANL holders.  We'll see how this combo

holds up.  All parts are easily accessible and replaceable if necessary

after flying.  Thanks for the responses.



Bevan



--

nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelect
Guest

Posted: Sun Jun 05, 2011 8:02 am Post subject: Brass bus bar

At 10:02 PM 6/4/2011, you wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  



Thanks Bob,



I found a strip of stainless.  .028 thick X 3/4 wide.  I believe the

terminals of the BlueSea ANL holders are stainless.


	


    Hmmmm . . .



    Keep in mind that the threaded fasteners used to

    hold things together are just that . . . designed

    to hold things together. In this case we're hoping

    to put sufficient 'mash' on OTHER materials that

    are the current carrying conductors such that large

    areas of 'gas tightness' are achieved. Those are typically

    tin-plated copper terminals.

 	  Quote: 	
		     I applied some terminal

conductive paste for corrosion control on the aluminum ring terminals.  The

Stainless strip connects the two ANL holders.  We'll see how this combo

holds up.  All parts are easily accessible and replaceable if necessary

after flying.  Thanks for the responses.


	


     Folks who float boats have an environmental

     stress not common to airplanes. Corrosion.

     There's a strong reason to look for more

     materials more robust in the salt-air.



     But that's a trade off. Stainless is, I

     believe, less conductive than brass. So

     heating of the material may well contribute

     to joint failure. Stainless is harder too,

     the area of "gas-tightness" is lower for

     the same-mate up forces. Aluminum gets you

     some pretty good contact area but it is the

     most reactive of the metals we've discussed.



     Thick brass or thinner copper are the

     materials of choice for jumpers between

     fat-terminals. ESPECIALLY if those jumpers

     carry starter currents. Stainless and

     particularly aluminum are not recommended.

     Stainless HARDWARE to hold things together

     is fine . . . where conductors come together

     with other conductors is our focus for

     performance.

   Bob . . .

Bob McC

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 258
Location: Toronto, ON

Posted: Sun Jun 05, 2011 10:08 am Post subject: Brass bus bar

Without going into detail of units etc, the relative resistivity of common

conductors is as follows. The best common conductor is silver, with copper a

close second. Stainless is waaay down the list. A smaller number represents

a better conductor from a purely conductive viewpoint. (The smaller the

number the less losses) Best to stick to copper conductors wherever feasible

with the possible exception of Eric's copper clad aluminium for very long

heavy runs. ( http://www.periheliondesign.com/fatwires.htm )



Silver			15.9

Copper		17.1

Aluminium		26.5

Brass			64.0

Mild steel		180

Stainless steel	720

Nichrome		1500		(used for heating elements)



Bob McC



[quote] --

_________________
Bob McC
Falco #908
(just starting)

henador_titzoff(at)yahoo.
Guest

Posted: Sun Jun 05, 2011 12:55 pm Post subject: Brass bus bar

Bob,

I'm not sure where you got those "relative resistivity" numbers below, as I've always seen metals and other substances' resistance described as Ohms/meter.  However, I checked the resistance of silver over copper and compared them to your numbers below (15.9/17.1), and the ratios are the same.

I just want to point out that gold should be in there between copper and aluminum.  Gold is widely used in the electronics industry to plate connector pins and sockets, on integrated circuits to connect die to pins and pads, and on circuit board pads.  No doubt there are countless other uses for gold in electrical circuits.

Eric's fat wires are a great trade  off between resistivity, weight and volume.  It's one of the best simple ideas to come out of the aerospace industry.  My hat off to Eric for being one of our vendors!

Henador Titzoff



From: Bob McCallum <robert.mccallum2(at)sympatico.ca>

To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com

Sent: Sunday, June 5, 2011 2:04 PM

Subject: RE: Brass bus bar



 --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Bob McCallum <robert.mccallum2(at)sympatico.ca (robert.mccallum2(at)sympatico.ca)>



Without going into detail of units etc, the relative resistivity of common

conductors is as follows. The best common conductor is silver, with copper a

close second. Stainless is waaay down the list. A smaller number represents

a better conductor from a purely conductive viewpoint. (The smaller the

number the less losses) Best to stick to copper conductors wherever feasible

with the possible exception of Eric's copper clad aluminium for very long

heavy runs. ( http://www.periheliondesign.com/fatwires.htm )



Silver            15.9

Copper        17.1

Aluminium        26.5

Brass             64.0

Mild steel        180

Stainless steel    720

Nichrome        1500        (used for heating elements)



Bob McC



[quote] --

nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelect
Guest

Posted: Sun Jun 05, 2011 4:41 pm Post subject: Brass bus bar

At 04:52 PM 6/5/2011, you wrote:

  	  Quote: 	
		  Bob,



 I'm not sure where you got those "relative resistivity" numbers below, as I've always seen metals and other substances' resistance described as Ohms/meter.  However, I checked the resistance of silver over copper and compared them to your numbers below (15.9/17.1), and the ratios are the same. 	


   There's a fist full of ways to describe the relative

   resistance of materials. Obviously, it's a volume thing.

   A bar of copper 1" square and 10' long will show a much

   lower resistance than a .1" square that is also 10' long.



   Any chart that speaks to relative resistivity of materials

   will be incomplete without building definitions around

   the samples for which the numbers are cited. For example.

   Here's a chart I found on the 'net . . .



  http://tinyurl.com/3w4m4kp 



 [img]cid:.0[/img]



 

   Some resistivity charts have been published using copper

   as a baseline and assigning it the value 1.0 with all other

   metals compared to copper. Similar charts have been made

   with silver having the base-line assignment of 1.0. MOST

   such charts are used to calculate the ratio of RELATIVE

   resistance between two different materials.



   The chart above does us the service of adding a cross-section

   that's well known, like 10AWG wire. Note the similarity

   of this value to the resistance for copper wire published in

   the 'Connection. VERY close to 1 millohm/foot.



   RESISTANCE is always a point-to-point measurement like

   from one end of a resistor to the other, two different

   points in a circuit, one end of a wire to another. The

   value observed may be the sum effects of many resistances.



   RESISTIVITY always speaks to the volumetric resistance

   of a homogenous but otherwise single material . . . like

   a bar of brass, copper or stainless steel. 



  	  Quote: 	
		  I just want to point out that gold should be in there between copper and aluminum.  Gold is widely used in the electronics industry to plate connector pins and sockets, on integrated circuits to connect die to pins and pads, and on circuit board pads.  No doubt there are countless other uses for gold in electrical circuits. 	


   Yes! Thanks for mentioning it. The primary use for gold

   is corrosion protection. It's not a terribly good 

   conductor but it is very resistant to corrosion. This

   explains the popularity for putting the very smallest

   layers of gold on a connector's mating surfaces. Typically

   50 micro-inches or less.



 

   Bob . . .

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rparigoris

Joined: 24 Nov 2009
Posts: 792

Posted: Sun Jun 05, 2011 5:40 pm Post subject: Re: Brass bus bar

Hi Bob



A while back I put together a list of links for galvonic and conductivity info:



http://www.europaowners.org/forums/gallery2.php?g2_itemId=87240



It's in word format, you need to click on "download document".



Ron Parigoris

mrspudandcompany(at)veriz
Guest

Posted: Mon Jun 06, 2011 4:17 am Post subject: Brass bus bar

So, me thinks that the best conclusion from this thread is:Â  If you want the best bus, use a gold plated silver bar.Â  This will give you the lowest resistance and the highest rejection of corrosion.Â  Mine will be on order as soon as my house refinancing goes through â˜ºâ˜ºâ˜º  

   

Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â  Roger  

       [quote][b]

bbradburry(at)bellsouth.n
Guest

Posted: Mon Jun 06, 2011 4:17 am Post subject: Brass bus bar

Henador would know about gold.  He used solid gold in all his fat wires.  When the engine fails to catch, he just flies on the starter!   :>)  

   

B2  

         

  

From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Henador Titzoff

 Sent: Sunday, June 05, 2011 4:53 PM

 To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com

 Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Brass bus bar  

  

       

Bob,  

    

   

    

I'm not sure where you got those "relative resistivity" numbers below, as I've always seen metals and other substances' resistance described as Ohms/meter.  However, I checked the resistance of silver over copper and compared them to your numbers below (15.9/17.1), and the ratios are the same.  

    

   

    

I just want to point out that gold should be in there between copper and aluminum.  Gold is widely used in the electronics industry to plate connector pins and sockets, on integrated circuits to connect die to pins and pads, and on circuit board pads.  No doubt there are countless other uses for gold in electrical circuits.  

    

   

    

Eric's fat wires are a great trade off between resistivity, weight and volume.  It's one of the best simple ideas to come out of the aerospace industry.  My hat off to Eric for being one of our vendors!  

    

   

    

Henador Titzoff  

    

   

          

  

From: Bob McCallum <robert.mccallum2(at)sympatico.ca>

 To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com

 Sent: Sunday, June 5, 2011 2:04 PM

 Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Brass bus bar

 

 --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Bob McCallum <robert.mccallum2(at)sympatico.ca (robert.mccallum2(at)sympatico.ca)>

 

 Without going into detail of units etc, the relative resistivity of common

 conductors is as follows. The best common conductor is silver, with copper a

 close second. Stainless is waaay down the list. A smaller number represents

 a better conductor from a purely conductive viewpoint. (The smaller the

 number the less losses) Best to stick to copper conductors wherever feasible

 with the possible exception of Eric's copper clad aluminium for very long

 heavy runs. ( http://www.periheliondesign.com/fatwires.htm )

 

 Silver            15.9

 Copper        17.1

 Aluminium        26.5

 Brass            64.0

 Mild steel        180

 Stainless steel    720

 Nichrome        1500        (used for heating elements)

 

 Bob McC

 

 > --

henador_titzoff(at)yahoo.
Guest

Posted: Mon Jun 06, 2011 6:29 am Post subject: Brass bus bar

Save your house and go with copper plated aluminum or just copper.  I'll even finance it for you. 

 

Henador Titzoff



From: ROGER &  JEAN CURTIS <mrspudandcompany(at)verizon.net>

To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com

Sent: Monday, June 6, 2011 8:13 AM

Subject: AeroElectric-List: Brass bus bar



                      So, me thinks that the best conclusion from this thread is:  If you want the best bus, use a gold plated silver bar.  This will give you the lowest resistance and the highest rejection of corrosion.  Mine will be on order as soon as my house refinancing goes through â˜ºâ˜ºâ˜º

   

              Roger

  

       [quote][b]

henador_titzoff(at)yahoo.
Guest

Posted: Mon Jun 06, 2011 7:17 am Post subject: Brass bus bar

Thank you very much, Ron.  I checked out your website and found one link to a "relative resistivity" chart that I really like.  It's really a relative conductivity chart, which is of course the reciprocal.  It shows copper to be 100%, and it compares everything to it.  Silver, for example, has a conductivity of 105%.

I really like this chart and info below it.  It says that although brass has a large percentage of copper, its conductivity is degraded much more by the additive metals than the percentages of them in brass.  I never use brass for electrical conduction, although it can be used for RFI shielding.

 

Henador Titzoff



From: rparigoris <rparigor(at)suffolk.lib.ny.us>

To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com

Sent: Sunday, June 5, 2011 9:40 PM

Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: Brass bus bar



 --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "rparigoris" <rparigor(at)suffolk.lib.ny.us (rparigor(at)suffolk.lib.ny.us)>



Hi Bob



A while back I put together a list of links for galvonic and conductivity info:



http://www.europaowners.org/forums/gallery2.php?g2_itemId=87240



It's in word format, you need to click on "download document".



Ron Parigoris





Read this topic online here:



http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=34215========================

mrspudandcompany(at)veriz
Guest

Posted: Mon Jun 06, 2011 7:18 am Post subject: Brass bus bar

Save your house and go with copper plated aluminum or just

copper.  I'll even finance it for you. 

		 

		Seriously, what I used, and find that it works great and is

inexpensive is, 3/8" soft copper tubing.  Take the tubing and flatten it in

your vice and it becomes a nice bar that you can solder on tabs, and it will

carry the current load.



		Roger

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rparigoris

Joined: 24 Nov 2009
Posts: 792

Posted: Mon Jun 06, 2011 10:14 am Post subject: Re: Brass bus bar

Hi Henador



"Thank you very much, Ron. I checked out your website and found one link to a "relative resistivity" chart that I really like. It's really a relative conductivity chart, which is of course the reciprocal. It shows copper to be 100%, and it compares everything to it. Silver, for example, has a conductivity of 105%."



I too like that chart.



I have been using copper bus bars (and thin wires):

 http://www.europaowners.org/forums/gallery2.php?g2_itemId=30710

and silver plating using cool amp:

http://www.cool-amp.com/



When copper oxidizess it doesn't conduct very well, silver when it tarnishes it still conducts somewhat. I find it easy to use, it is non toxic and if I let plain copper sit around it needs cleaning before use which sometimes is a pain, but the plated parts are still beautiful.



I did a test leaving some plain copper bus and some plated copper bus sit in my yard for some time (probably more than a year). The copper is dark brown and will not solder at all unless cleaned. the silver plated bus is a little tarnished but still solders OK believe it or not. 



I should take a pic of what this thin wide wire/bus looks like now:

http://www.europaowners.org/forums/gallery2.php?g2_itemId=30937

I plated the end in the foreground with six screws, I also plated just a hole punch sized spot. Now the copper is plenty brown just sitting around in the hangar. the silver plate still looks great. Now the other end is plated, but if you had to clean oxidized copper there for final assembly like I did a few months ago, what a pain. 



Ron Parigoris

henador_titzoff(at)yahoo.
Guest

Posted: Mon Jun 06, 2011 11:20 am Post subject: Brass bus bar

Groan, Ron! The prices of the Cool-Amp is $231.87 for a 16 oz bottle and Conducto-Lube is $496.72 for a 8 oz bottle!  At those prices, I'd have to sell my house and outsource my wife!  I like much better burnishing the corrosion off the copper, which is easy to do and cheap.  This business of using silver bus bar or Cool-Amp/Conducto-Lube is okay for the US government, which we all know has an endless bucket of money. 

I could see using these two materials in our experimental airplanes if there was a reliability problem that we're trying to solve; however, I haven't heard of one, and a one foot of 1/8"x1/2" C110 H04 copper bus bar costs only $3.16 at OnlineMetals.com, plus shipping.  I think this is  reasonable.

 

Henador Titzoff



From: rparigoris <rparigor(at)suffolk.lib.ny.us>

To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com

Sent: Monday, June 6, 2011 2:14 PM

Subject: Re: Brass bus bar



 --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "rparigoris" <rparigor(at)suffolk.lib.ny.us (rparigor(at)suffolk.lib.ny.us)>



Hi Henador



"Thank you very much, Ron. I checked out your website and found one link to a "relative resistivity" chart that I really like. It's really a relative conductivity chart, which is of course the reciprocal. It shows copper to be 100%, and it compares everything to it. Silver, for example, has a conductivity of 105%."



I too like that chart.



I have been using copper bus bars (and thin wires):

 http://www.europaowners.org/forums/gallery2.php?g2_itemId=30710

and silver plating using cool amp:

http://www.cool-amp.com/



When copper oxidizess it doesn't conduct very well, silver when it tarnishes it still conducts somewhat. I find it easy to use, it is non toxic and if I let plain copper sit around it needs cleaning before use  which sometimes is a pain, but the plated parts are still beautiful.



I did a test leaving some plain copper bus and some plated copper bus sit in my yard for some time (probably more than a year). The copper is dark brown and will not solder at all unless cleaned. the silver plated bus is a little tarnished but still solders OK believe it or not. 



I should take a pic of what this thin wide wire/bus looks like now:

http://www.europaowners.org/forums/gallery2.php?g2_itemId=30937

I plated the end in the foreground with six screws, I also plated just a hole punch sized spot. Now the copper is plenty brown just sitting around in the hangar. the silver plate still looks great. Now the other end is plated, but if you had to clean oxidized copper there for final assembly like I did a few months ago, what a pain. 



Ron Parigoris





Read this topic online  here:



http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=342214#342214

nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelect
Guest

Posted: Mon Jun 06, 2011 2:13 pm Post subject: Brass bus bar

At 03:15 PM 6/6/2011, you wrote:

  	  Quote: 	
		  Groan, Ron! The prices of the Cool-Amp is $231.87 for a 16 oz bottle and Conducto-Lube is $496.72 for a 8 oz bottle!  At those prices, I'd have to sell my house and outsource my wife! 	




  Such potions are mostly intended for connectors that

  can be mated/de-mated with some frequency and do not

  enjoy gas-tight make-up of the contacts.



  The only time you might get some benefit for permanent

  joints is if they've been made up too loose to begin

  with. Those products are popular with the maintenance

  folks in factories, etc. but I've never seen them

  called out on an airplane drawing anywhere.



 

 

   Bob . . .    [quote][b]

rparigoris

Joined: 24 Nov 2009
Posts: 792

Posted: Mon Jun 06, 2011 2:13 pm Post subject: Re: Brass bus bar

Hi Henador



If you take a look on cool Amps site they sell a 2 oz. jar for $43.95



If you go in with some of your buddies (probably up to 10) you all will have a lifetime supply.



A sixteen oz. jar would be good for probably a lifetime supply for 80 builders.



There are problems with copper. There are places where if it oxidizes it is hard to clean. For instance my port and starboard connecting copper thin wide wire. They plate copper lugs for that same reason, would be hard to clean internal portion.



Cool amp also works on brass. My Flaming River race car cut off contactor got the threads and mounting hardware plated as well. Again it was installed a while ago and hard to remove to clean contact areas. the silver plating a few months ago were in very nice condition where other brass stuff would in fact need burnishing. 



Ron Parigoris

henador_titzoff(at)yahoo.
Guest

Posted: Mon Jun 06, 2011 3:47 pm Post subject: Brass bus bar

Ron,

Usually going in with the guys doesn't work, as one of them will use Cool-Amps to do his whole house and poof, it's gone!  Either that or nobody knows where it is anymore.  I've found that as you involve 2 or more people in any effort, it gets complicated.

Great product, but the real reason that Cool-Amps is not cost effective for what we're doing is because it is a solution (no pun intended) looking for a problem.  AE bus bar designs are so easy to get to on our airplanes that even Kim Kardashian could burnish one for you. As Bob pointed out, gas tight fittings have been solving the corrosion problem for decades.

 

Henador Titzoff



From: rparigoris <rparigor(at)suffolk.lib.ny.us>

To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com

Sent: Monday, June 6, 2011 6:13 PM

Subject: Re: Brass bus bar



 --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "rparigoris" <rparigor(at)suffolk.lib.ny.us (rparigor(at)suffolk.lib.ny.us)>



Hi Henador



If you take a look on cool Amps site they sell a 2 oz. jar for $43.95



If you go in with some of your buddies (probably up to 10) you all will have a lifetime supply.



A sixteen oz. jar would be good for probably a lifetime supply for 80 builders.



There are problems with copper. There are places where if it oxidizes it is hard to clean. For instance my port and starboard connecting copper thin wide wire. They plate copper lugs for that same reason, would be hard to clean internal portion.



Cool amp also works on brass. My Flaming River race car cut off contactor got the threads and mounting hardware plated as well. Again it was installed a while ago and hard to remove to clean contact areas. the silver plating a few months  ago were in very nice condition where other brass stuff would in fact need burnishing. 



Ron Parigoris





Read this topic online here:



http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=342250#342250< -->                     &nbsp========================

 [quote][b]

Eric M. Jones

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 565
Location: Massachusetts

Posted: Tue Jun 07, 2011 7:12 am Post subject: Re: Brass bus bar

By the way. My local airport, Southbridge, MA had 33 aircraft of which 30 were totalled by a tornado last week. Jeeeeezz..........



On the subject of wires and materials, as has been mentioned. Silver is the best conductor ---and this is the important part--per unit volume. Aluminum is 2X as good as anything else in the universe per unit mass. This is important to people where weight (and MONEY) is concerned. 



I sell a lot of Copper-Clad Aluminum to race car drivers, helicopter builders and anyone who wants to lose a pound or two. I sell many thousands of feet to military drone builders. I even sell to top-fuel dragsters. (Hey, I can shave a pound off your 320 mph in 1/4 mile dragster!).



But for really short runs, or bus bars, it doesn't save much. There is a copper clad aluminum bus bar material (which I am considering carrying), but I really recommend configuring wiring so as to not need a bus bar.



Factoid: Gold is good for low corrosion and its resulting low resistance. But it only makes sense for very low voltages/currents. You might think gold might would be a great conductor, but it isn't.



Factoid: Stainless Steel and Aluminum are problematic when oxidized. Copper and a few other metals work even if oxidized, but curiously CuO etc. was used for diodes. This can cause bizarre electrical problems--for example at high frequencies, strange DC biases appear. This is a problem in electro-surgery where the connection may have been electroplated but now the plating has scratches, chips and corrosion. I surmise that transmitters are not totally immune to this, so keep those connections clean and tight.

_________________
Eric M. Jones
www.PerihelionDesign.com
113 Brentwood Drive
Southbridge, MA 01550
(508) 764-2072
emjones(at)charter.net

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