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Flap cross tube

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gregoryf.flyboy(at)comcas
Guest

Posted: Tue Jun 07, 2011 3:59 am Post subject: Flap cross tube

Kelv,



Thanks for the info! It sure does help.



My Port measurement from the closeout web to the inboard face of the FLAP

pin mounting plates is 75.125 (75 1/

   STDB measurement is 74.875 (74 7/



Well, that makes a half an inch difference from your measurement, anyway. I

am stumped. If I assume 1/2 inch short for flap and maybe 1/4 inch for drive

tube, it still doesn't cover 1.75 to 2 inches, which is what it appears I

need to span the distance.



Thanks, that is the only reference for the flaps I have to compare to.



Greg 






Greg



My flap cross tube on kit 497 is 44.6 inches as supplied by Europa

(untrimmed and without bearings).



My flap dimensions are shown below, measured from the closeout web between

the flap and aileron and the inboard face of the wing pin mounting plates.



Port  1908 mm or 75.2 inches



Stbd  1912 mm or 75.3 inches



Hope this helps.



--------

Regards



Kelv Weston

Kit 497

kelv(at)kdweston.biz

Richard Wheelwright

Joined: 15 Sep 2008
Posts: 111
Location: Halifax, West Yorkshire, UK

Posted: Tue Jun 07, 2011 5:27 am Post subject: Flap cross tube

It may be a silly Question, But have you rigged the wings with the flaps in place?  I ask, because the flap drive pin slides into the flap cross tube as the flaps are retracted. If you are measuring with the flaps extended it would appear to be short. 

  

 I hope this helps. Sorry if you are ready know this

 

  

 ====================



 Richard Wheelwright

====================

 



   

From: Greg Fuchs <gregoryf.flyboy(at)comcast.net>

To: europa-list(at)matronics.com

Sent: Tuesday, 7 June 2011, 12:55

Subject: RE: Re: Flap cross tube



--> Europa-List message posted by: "Greg Fuchs " <gregoryf.flyboy(at)comcast.net (gregoryf.flyboy(at)comcast.net)>

Kelv,



Thanks for the info! It sure does  help.



My Port measurement from the closeout web to the inboard face of the FLAP

pin mounting plates is 75.125 (75 1/

  STDB measurement is 74.875 (74 7/



Well, that makes a half an inch difference from your measurement, anyway. I

am stumped. If I assume 1/2 inch short for flap and maybe 1/4 inch for drive

tube, it still doesn't cover 1.75 to 2 inches, which is what it appears I

need to span the distance.



Thanks, that is the only reference for the flaps I have to compare to.



Greg 



--> Europa-List message posted by: "Kelvin Weston" <kelv(at)kdweston.biz (kelv(at)kdweston.biz)>



Greg



My flap cross tube on kit 497 is 44.6 inches as supplied by Europa

(untrimmed and without bearings).



My flap dimensions are shown below, measured from the closeout web between

the flap  and aileron and the inboard face of the wing pin mounting plates.



Port  1908 mm or 75.2 inches



Stbd  1912 mm or 75.3 inches



Hope this helps.



--------

Regards



Kelv Weston

Kit 497

kelv(at)kdweston.biz (kelv(at)kdweston.biz)



 href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List" target=_blank>htp;               -Matt 



 [quote][b]

_________________
Richard Wheelwright
G-IRPW
First Flight 24th July 2013

gregoryf.flyboy(at)comcas
Guest

Posted: Tue Jun 07, 2011 10:37 am Post subject: Flap cross tube

Hi Richard!

 Yes, with the flaps up. The wings are pinned with the main  spar pins, but the lift pins are not in place. Could that be it? .Rocking  the wings fore and aft, there does not seem to be much movement. There  is no hole in the fuselage to accept the cross tube yet. I am looking ahead to  try an see how things are going to fit in the future, and measurements have an  eyeball factor, since things are not in line, and may be suffering some  parallax. Currently trying to figure out some way to provide a slot in the  quick-connect area for the wing spars to slide in, to make it easier  to rig/derig (I don't think there is extra Tufnol in the kit for this, maybe  HDPE will work..).   ..Final say may well be after the wing  is set in its permanent position with lift pins and cross tube installed through  the fuselage..  I might use some plumb bobs (hanging from flap pin surface)  for a better esitmate, later on today.

 Thanks for your input,

 Greg

  

  

   

 From:  owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com  [mailto:owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Richard  Wheelwright

Subject: Re: Re: Flap cross  tube

 

  It may be a silly Question,  But have you rigged the wings with the flaps in place?  I ask, because the  flap drive pin slides into the flap cross tube as the flaps are retracted. If  you are measuring with the flaps extended it would  appear to be short. 

  

 I hope this helps. Sorry if  you are ready know this

 

  

 ====================



 Richard Wheelwright

====================



   [quote][b]

Kelvin Weston

Joined: 14 Apr 2010
Posts: 90
Location: Hampshire, UK

Posted: Tue Jun 07, 2011 11:37 am Post subject: Re: Flap cross tube

Greg



I take it you have the flaps hinged to the wing.



If your flaps were too short, you would have had problems aligning the flap hinge arms with the wing hinge plates.



As the tip or outer flap arm FL3 mounts in the centre of the outboard flap hinge plates W21, any discrepancy in the length of the flap is visible at the flap root. The flap arm FL1 will be slightly out of line with the wing root hinge plate W18.



I know some are slightly out, I have looked at many Europas during my build and have seen the inboard flap hinge arm W19 bolted to both sides of the inboard wing plate W18.  I have also seen some W19 arms with a double bend to achieve alignment.



If yours were reasonably lined up at the root hinge then the flaps are likely to be ok in length.

_________________
Regards

Kelv Weston
Kit 497
kelv@kdweston.co.uk

craigb(at)onthenet.com.au
Guest

Posted: Tue Jun 07, 2011 11:48 am Post subject: Flap cross tube

I used some heavy nylon blocks cut into an L shape to guide the spar as it slides in, fixed into each spar hole.  

As for the flap tube, like you I had doubts the tube was long enough, it ended it being too long. Rig your wings  

Then go ahead and cut the slots for the hinge mounts in the underside of the fuse so you can get the four holes lined up.  

I used a heavy cord for the alignment that was a neat fit in the bolt holes and basically pulled it tight with tension provided by a 5kg weight  

This way you don’t have to “eyeball” the centre of the holes for correct alignment and even if you move something a little by accident the tension  

On the cord is enough to keep the alignment correct on the two inner hinges as the outer two are already fixed in place  

   

craig  

       

From: owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Greg Fuchs 

 Sent: Wednesday, June 08, 2011 4:33 AM

 To: europa-list(at)matronics.com

 Subject: RE: Re: Flap cross tube  

  

  

   

Hi Richard!  

Yes, with the flaps up. The wings are pinned with the main spar pins, but the lift pins are not in place. Could that be it? ..Rocking the wings fore and aft, there does not seem to be much movement. There is no hole in the fuselage to accept the cross tube yet. I am looking ahead to try an see how things are going to fit in the future, and measurements have an eyeball factor, since things are not in line, and may be suffering some parallax. Currently trying to figure out some way to provide a slot in the quick-connect area for the wing spars to slide in, to make it easier to rig/derig (I don't think there is extra Tufnol in the kit for this, maybe HDPE will work..).   ..Final say may well be after the wing is set in its permanent position with lift pins and cross tube installed through the fuselage..  I might use some plumb bobs (hanging from flap pin surface) for a better esitmate, later on today.  

Thanks for your input,  

Greg  

   

       

  

From: owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Richard Wheelwright

 Subject: Re: Re: Flap cross tube      

It may be a silly Question, But have you rigged the wings with the flaps in place?  I ask, because the flap drive pin slides into the flap cross tube as the flaps are retracted. If you are measuring with the flaps extended it would appear to be short.   

    

   

    

I hope this helps. Sorry if you are ready know this  

    

   

    

====================  

    

Richard Wheelwright

 ====================  

  

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No virus found in this message.

 Checked by AVG - www.avg.com

 06/07/11  

       [quote][b]

gregoryf.flyboy(at)comcas
Guest

Posted: Tue Jun 07, 2011 2:10 pm Post subject: Flap cross tube

Kelv,

 	  Quote: 	
		  I take it you have the flaps hinged to the wing.

Yes
	




I did indeed use FL3 as the reference in positioning the flap laterally.

Only about 1/4" of flange needed to be cut off the outboard side of the flap

to center FL3 between the dual flap hinge plates. I had no problem lining up

any of the hinge arms. Most lined up with zero flexing. The inboard most

hinge arms may have had a very very slight flex. It was almost perfect. I

cannot remember which side of the w18's the hinge arms bolted up to, but

both wings were symetric at the root. While setting them up, I remembered

that some builders used S-curves. I was happy to see everything line up. I

would probably re-make the flap end, before s-curving the hinge arm (just my

opinion).

As you say, it intuitively appears at least, that they are not considerably

short for sure. Little shorter than your measurement though.  Thanks for

those! Still hoping for a few more measurements to compare to..



Regards,



Greg



--

gregoryf.flyboy(at)comcas
Guest

Posted: Tue Jun 07, 2011 2:43 pm Post subject: Flap cross tube

Hi Craig,

  

 Maybe the flap tube clearance is too close a call to make  at the moment. Might have to shelve that thought for now, as one of those things  that can't be looked into until later when other things are  finalized.

  

 Sounds like a good technique with the cord for setting up the  hinge mounts on the fuselage. When potting in the center flap hinge  arm a few years ago (on the same axis as the outer hinge arms), I used the  lightest stuff I could get my hands on, to eliminate droop.  That  turned out to be monofilament fishing line. A small toothpick-like stick,  which was tied to the line, had plenty of friction to hold itself in place  under tension, on the back side of the hinge, with the line  going through the exact center of the holes on the outer edges of  the flap. Used eyeball and painted the fishing line in the area it  went through the holes, to achieve good visibility.  Not sure how that  technique will work with the fuse hinge arms though, due to accessibility and  parallax error. I might have to visit your technique, it sounds pretty  good.

  

  

 I am heading down to pick up some HDPE right  now  and am hoping it will work at least as well as nylon. I think  someone else here had good results.  Afraid glue won't stick to either like  it does with TUFNOL, though. Might put them on the top side of the spar  hole too.  Hopefully, it will help one-person attempts  to align the wing pins so many times.  How did you anchor in the nylon  blocks, a number of screws and some glue around the edges of the block? New  thread could be started here...almost (prob too short).

  

 Greg F



   From: owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com  [mailto:owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of  craig

Sent: Tuesday, June 07, 2011 12:46 PM

To:  europa-list(at)matronics.com

Subject: RE: Re: Flap cross  tube

 

  

I  used some heavy nylon blocks cut into an L shape to guide the spar as it slides  in, fixed into each spar hole. 

As  for the flap tube, like you I had doubts the tube was long enough, it ended it  being too long. Rig your wings 

Then  go ahead and cut the slots for the hinge mounts in the underside of the fuse so  you can get the four holes lined up. 

I  used a heavy cord for the alignment that was a neat fit in the bolt holes and  basically pulled it tight with tension provided by a 5kg  weight 

This  way you don’t have to “eyeball” the centre of the holes for correct alignment  and even if you move something a little by accident the  tension 

On  the cord is enough to keep the alignment correct on the two inner hinges as the  outer two are already fixed in place 

  

craig 

    

From:  owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com  [mailto:owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Greg Fuchs  

Sent: Wednesday, June 08, 2011 4:33 AM

To:  europa-list(at)matronics.com

Subject: RE: Re: Flap cross  tube



 

  

Hi  Richard! 

Yes,  with the flaps up. The wings are pinned with the main spar pins, but the  lift pins are not in place. Could that be it? ...Rocking the wings fore and aft,  there does not seem to be much movement. There is no hole in the  fuselage to accept the cross tube yet. I am looking ahead to try an see how  things are going to fit in the future, and measurements have an eyeball factor,  since things are not in line, and may be suffering some parallax. Currently  trying to figure out some way to provide a slot in the quick-connect  area for the wing spars to slide in, to make it easier to rig/derig (I  don't think there is extra Tufnol in the kit for this, maybe HDPE will  work..).   ..Final say may well be after the wing is set in  its permanent position with lift pins and cross tube installed through the  fuselage..  I might use some plumb bobs (hanging from flap pin surface) for  a better esitmate, later on today. 

Thanks  for your input, 

Greg 

  

    

 

From:  owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com  [mailto:owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Richard  Wheelwright

Subject: Re: Re: Flap cross  tube   

It may  be a silly Question, But have you rigged the wings with the flaps in  place?  I ask, because the flap drive pin slides into the flap cross tube  as the flaps are retracted. If you are measuring with the flaps extended it  would appear to be short. 

  

 

  

I hope  this helps. Sorry if you are ready know this

  

 

  

====================

  

Richard  Wheelwright

====================



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No virus found in this message.

Checked by AVG - www.avg.com

06/07/11

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0   [quote][b]

craigb(at)onthenet.com.au
Guest

Posted: Wed Jun 08, 2011 4:03 am Post subject: Flap cross tube

I used two counter sunk screws through the block with nyloc nuts and washers underneath  

   

   

I am heading down to pick up some HDPE right now  and am hoping it will work at least as well as nylon. I think someone else here had good results.  Afraid glue won't stick to either like it does with TUFNOL, though. Might put them on the top side of the spar hole too.  Hopefully, it will help one-person attempts to align the wing pins so many times.  How did you anchor in the nylon blocks, a number of screws and some glue around the edges of the block? New thread could be started here...almost (prob too short).  

   

Greg F  

       [quote][b]

gregoryf.flyboy(at)comcas
Guest

Posted: Wed Jun 08, 2011 11:04 am Post subject: Flap cross tube

Ok, thanks for the help



   From: owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com  [mailto:owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of  craig

 

  

I  used two counter sunk screws through the block with nyloc nuts and washers  underneath 

  

  

I am  heading down to pick up some HDPE right now  and am hoping it will  work at least as well as nylon. I think someone else here had good results.   Afraid glue won't stick to either like it does with TUFNOL, though. Might  put them on the top side of the spar hole too.  Hopefully, it  will help one-person attempts to align the wing pins so many  times.  How did you anchor in the nylon blocks, a number of screws and some  glue around the edges of the block? New thread could be started here...almost  (prob too short). 

  

Greg  F

   [quote][b]

rparigoris

Joined: 24 Nov 2009
Posts: 791

Posted: Wed Jun 08, 2011 11:47 am Post subject: Re: Flap cross tube

Hi Greg



On page two I have details of spar ramp install:

 http://www.europaowners.org/forums/gallery2.php?g2_itemId=31838&g2_page=1

Boy some portions were thin on my spar ramps, I liked using Tufnal and Reduxing it in place. I used a router to get close and then a belt sander to complete the fitting.

I found that making ramps for wing spar bushings and cowbell entrances really helped out a lot and will keep the aluminium bushings in good shape in addition to putting much less loading on the cowbells since the aluminium bushings will no longer hang up on them.

I had an accelerated cockpit module. After a few trial attempts to rig the wings the starboard cowbell broke looke. It was only Reduxed in place with less than stellar scuff sanding. I reinstalled doing a much better scuff sanding job and installed first ply of fiberglass wet out with Redux, then peel plied. Then subsequent plies of glass were wet out with Aeropoxy. The aluminium aileron bracket I used same technique, first ply Redux wet glass and peel ply, subsequent plies glass wet with Aeropoxy. Heating the Redux with a heat gun once it is on the glass helps to more easily wet out. Redux wet glass sticks much more better to steel or aluminium than Aeropoxy wet glass.



Ron Parigoris

gregoryf.flyboy(at)comcas
Guest

Posted: Thu Jun 09, 2011 1:59 pm Post subject: Flap cross tube

There a lot of pics and great wing pin/flap documentation there, Ron! It

will take me awhile to go through it with my micro-tooth comb 



 	  Quote: 	
		  Boy some portions were thin on my spar ramps, I liked using Tufnal and

Reduxing it in place.
	


Noted. Just in case I cannot get HDPE or nylon spacers to work...where did

you get your extra Tufnol?   ..Apologies if this has been discussed already

on the server.



 	  Quote: 	
		  I found that making ramps for wing spar bushings and cowbell entrances

really helped out a lot
	


I will look into this.



Regards,

Greg



--

rparigoris

Joined: 24 Nov 2009
Posts: 791

Posted: Thu Jun 09, 2011 3:57 pm Post subject: Re: Flap cross tube

Hi Greg



I purchased Tufnal from my favorite company www.mcmaster.com



Search:

pheonelic

page 3585 to 3589



I probably selected the more easily to machine LE linen grade on page 3585 part#6842K22.



BTW I used G-11 for the ceiling panel (removable) it is very slightly more dimensional stable than G-10. I forget it was either 1/16" or possible 1/13". You can probably find details on my gallery. It was half the thickness of the factory supplied panel but way more dimensional stable. The one sold to me by the factory was polyester and after I fitted it, it warped way out of shape. that said i think they now supply epoxy resin glass panels?



I use G-1o for many tasks in europa build. It is fiberglass instead of paper or linen. kinda like mil spec circuit board material. it bonds well with redux or Aeropoxy. I used it for mass balance guides and many other instances. It is sold in tubes and solid rods and machines OK.



Ron Parigoris

gregoryf.flyboy(at)comcas
Guest

Posted: Fri Jun 10, 2011 2:58 am Post subject: Flap cross tube

Ron,



Ha-Ha, Always surmised Tufnol and Phenolic were the same, just wasn't

positive. Thanks!



I never got a ceiling panel from the company, but am planning removable,

resizable, remake-able and reposition-able panels, all held on (the sides)

with the plastic knobby type super strong Velcro-like strips. That will give

infinite upgrade potential. Was planning on using 3mm plywood, but will have

to look at this Garolite G10/G11. Sounds kind of handy. If they are as light

as the 3mm plywood with fiberglass over it, I'm on board.



Greg Fuchs, A050

--

rparigoris

Joined: 24 Nov 2009
Posts: 791

Posted: Fri Jun 10, 2011 9:26 am Post subject: Re: Flap cross tube

Hi Greg



"I never got a ceiling panel from the company, but am planning removable, 

resizable, remake-able and reposition-able panels, all held on (the sides) 

with the plastic knobby type super strong Velcro-like strips. That will give 

infinite upgrade potential. Was planning on using 3mm plywood, but will have 

to look at this Garolite G10/G11. Sounds kind of handy. If they are as light 

as the 3mm plywood with fiberglass over it, I'm on board."



I have conduits run to ceiling:

http://www.europaowners.org/forums/gallery2.php?g2_itemId=27687



Lots of stuff on the ceiling panel:

http://www.europaowners.org/forums/gallery2.php?g2_itemId=31607



The G-11 weighs less than the one supplied from Factory. The problem I see with using wood covered with glass is it is much thicker than the G-11 and you need to push door seal over the edge. For certain you can work around that, but the G-11 is so thin it is a non issue.



Ron Parigoris

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