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paul.the.aviator(at)gmail
Guest

Posted: Sun Jun 26, 2011 6:07 am Post subject: Woodcomp after Sales Service

Hi All,



I was very impressed with the results that David Joyce got with his SR 3000W propeller from Woodcomp.  I would like to some feedback from the forum about there after sales experience from Woodcomp.  Please give me the 'good, the bad and the ugly'

 

Thanks,  Paul

 

  [quote][b]

nigel henry

Joined: 24 Feb 2011
Posts: 16
Location: oxford uk

Posted: Sun Jun 26, 2011 6:55 am Post subject: Woodcomp after Sales Service

I have spoken to Woodcomp several times  and they are very professional  and they even have a Europa !     and I will be ordering a new prop this year for my Europa  Nigel Henry 



Date: Sun, 26 Jun 2011 09:02:46 -0500

Subject: Woodcomp after Sales Service

From: paul.the.aviator(at)gmail.com

To: europa-list(at)matronics.com



Hi All,



I was very impressed with the results that David Joyce got with his SR 3000W propeller from Woodcomp.  I would like to some feedback from the forum about there after sales experience from Woodcomp.  Please give me the 'good, the bad and the ugly'

 

Thanks,  Paul

 

  [quote]



 target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List

http://forums.matronics.com

="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution



[b]

paul.the.aviator(at)gmail
Guest

Posted: Sun Jun 26, 2011 7:28 am Post subject: Woodcomp after Sales Service

Hi Nigel



Thanks for sharing your experience.  I was wondering if you have ever sent your propeller in for service and if so how responsive are they.  



What I am particularly interested in learning about is there after sales service.

 

On Sun, Jun 26, 2011 at 9:52 AM, nigel henry <gbupa(at)hotmail.com (gbupa(at)hotmail.com)> wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		        I have spoken to Woodcomp several times  and they are very professional  and they even have a Europa !     and I will be ordering a new prop this year for my Europa  Nigel Henry 



	




do not archive

  

  [quote][b]

frans(at)privatepilots.nl
Guest

Posted: Sun Jun 26, 2011 8:19 am Post subject: Woodcomp after Sales Service

On 06/26/2011 04:02 PM, Paul McAllister wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   I was very impressed with the results that David Joyce got with his SR

 3000W propeller from Woodcomp.  I would like to some feedback from the

 forum about there after sales experience from Woodcomp.  Please give me

 the 'good, the bad and the ugly'


	


I got excellent support and advice when I was ordering the propeller

from Woodcomp directly and delivery was prompt. After that I had no

reason to contact them again as the prop works flawlessly and performs

better than expected. Had to service it at 50 hours and did that at a

local Woodcomp dealer. Found that one spinner screw was missing and got

a complete new spinner fastening set free of charge. Ordered spare

brushes, but at the 100 hour check I discovered that the brushes were

almost like new and it looks like it is going to take a long while

before I have to replace them.



Have now 100+ hours but have had no issues with the prop.

A few notes though:

1) I'm using the controller from Smart Avionics which is very

configurable and able to match the prop exactly to the engine/airframe

characteristics.

2) I have a prop with feather capability (to anticipate a potential

future use of the glider wings). The props with feather capability have

a stronger and faster motor. Maybe this is the reason why the Woodcomp

prop behaves like a hydraulic prop and reacts so fast that it never

allows the RPM to surge off its target.



Hope this helps,



Frans

josok-e

Joined: 29 Jan 2010
Posts: 16
Location: Ivalo Finland

Posted: Sun Jun 26, 2011 11:13 am Post subject: Woodcomp after Sales Service

Sorry to remember you all that my Woodcomp prop nearly took my life.

I hate to repeat my words, but memories seem to be short.

The propeller i had was equipped with microswitches, which were and 

,after a change,  still are not designed for outside use.

Nethertheless these switches are mounted on the backplate, open for 

weather.

These switches are designed for AC 240 V, not for DC 12 V, and the Amp 

rating is way below the current going through them.

The cross-over diodes are specified for less then half the current drawn.

Even when activated only occasionally, it's a design flaw.

Know to me are 3 incidents with short circuiting micro-switches, both 

other pilots could land their plane without damage to their plane or 

themselves.  An incident with a loose gear, causing one of the blades at 

a totally diffent angle then the others was reported to me, and never 

made it to this forum. This seems to be the happy family show, which i 

am now spoiling. 

It may well be that there are others, or people never fly in rain. or 

are just very lucky.

In my case, to the best of my knowledge, a microswitch short circuited, 

taking the prop to a feather situation, shortly after take-off. I had 

been flying in heavy rain for hours the other day.

Unless thing have changed is Jyrki the only one who understands English, 

if he's not available you are on your own.

After my incident Woodcomp banned the Smart Avionic controller. What 

that means is unclear to me. As far as i know, they never got there own 

controller working decently.

As for the figures, i've had trouble to keep  up with a 912 with a fixed 

prop and i was flying with a 914 and a Woodcomp 3000. The only good 

figure seems to be the price.

So in short: Save a few, risk your plane and life.

The choice is yours....

Regards,

Jos Okhuijsen

(enjoying his second life 

. 26.6.2011 19:16, Frans Veldman kirjoitti:

 	  Quote: 	

 On 06/26/2011 04:02 PM, Paul McAllister wrote:

> I was very impressed with the results that David Joyce got with his SR

> 3000W propeller from Woodcomp.  I would like to some feedback from the

> forum about there after sales experience from Woodcomp.  Please give me

> the 'good, the bad and the ugly'

 I got excellent support and advice when I was ordering the propeller

 from Woodcomp directly and delivery was prompt. After that I had no

 reason to contact them again as the prop works flawlessly and performs

 better than expected. Had to service it at 50 hours and did that at a

 local Woodcomp dealer. Found that one spinner screw was missing and got

 a complete new spinner fastening set free of charge. Ordered spare

 brushes, but at the 100 hour check I discovered that the brushes were

 almost like new and it looks like it is going to take a long while

 before I have to replace them.

 Have now 100+ hours but have had no issues with the prop.

 A few notes though:

 1) I'm using the controller from Smart Avionics which is very

 configurable and able to match the prop exactly to the engine/airframe

 characteristics.

 2) I have a prop with feather capability (to anticipate a potential

 future use of the glider wings). The props with feather capability have

 a stronger and faster motor. Maybe this is the reason why the Woodcomp

 prop behaves like a hydraulic prop and reacts so fast that it never

 allows the RPM to surge off its target.

 Hope this helps,

 Frans

kheindl(at)msn.com
Guest

Posted: Sun Jun 26, 2011 11:18 am Post subject: Woodcomp after Sales Service

Paul,



No problem with BEFORE sales service. And it is a good product.

I had ordered their original (2 instruments) controller and could not get it to work correctly, even after receiving a second set. I lost a whole season's flying due to extremely poor response from the factory. Only one person speaks English, and he is not always there. Emails were not answered. Telephone calls resulted in : oh, he is in a meeting. Promises like: I will ship it tomorrow would mean nothing was shipped for two weeks.

At one point I was so frustrated that I contacted the Czech Embassy here in Canada and asked them to call the factory. After that, things improved considerably. 

Their latest controller looks much better but I have no idea how it performs. One positive point about their controllers is that they come completely pre-wired , as opposed to the Smartavionics one, which I switched to ,

which is a tedious DIY project. Woodcomp did refund the money for the controller.

 I found the Woodcomp agents in Canada and the US most unhelpful. The Canadian agent especially is a real dickhead and did not seem to have a clue about the product. 

I had two motor failures, and now always carry a spare. One was in flight in a very remote area in the US.

Woodcomp responded immediately, but sent me the wrong motor.

I  have a 2-blade feathering SR3000/2W, the first on a Europa. I also had the first 10 inch spinner.

More recently like last year I mentioned a small amount of play in my blade set, and they sent me a kit f.o.c.

for the hub. It was an upgrade consisting of different gears and spring washers, which I installed myself and everything seems fine now.

So there you have it.

If you buy one and with the Smartavionics, you are unlikely to need any after sales service. You should also order a spare motor and set of brushes to save on future shipping.

Karl



Date: Sun, 26 Jun 2011 09:02:46 -0500

Subject: Woodcomp after Sales Service

From: paul.the.aviator(at)gmail.com

To: europa-list(at)matronics.com



Hi All,



I was very impressed with the results that David Joyce got with his SR 3000W propeller from Woodcomp.  I would like to some feedback from the forum about there after sales experience from Woodcomp.  Please give me the 'good, the bad and the ugly'

 

Thanks,  Paul

 

  [quote]



 target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List

http://forums.matronics.com

="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution



[b]

houlihan(at)blueyonder.co
Guest

Posted: Sun Jun 26, 2011 1:29 pm Post subject: Woodcomp after Sales Service

Hi 

 

Further to Jos's comments about his very serious accident I seem to recall that the Austrian authorities planned to issue a report regarding the possible cause.  I may have missed it so can anyone let me know what it contained, preferably in English.

  

Not being an expert in these things I find I have problems linking the limit switch failure Jos talks about to the fact that for the propeller to go to fully fine or even beyond fully fine to a beta state requires the motor to be powered to drive it there. I am sure there may be a mechanism that will make that happen but I cannot see how it can do that just because a limit switch fails.

  

Also my understanding is that Woodcomp do not support the Smartavioncs controller not surprising really as it is not their product and it is in competition with them but " banning" it is beyond their remit.

  

Tim H

 

 



 

On 26 June 2011 20:10, Jos Okhuijsen <josok-e(at)ukolo.fi (josok-e(at)ukolo.fi)> wrote:

 [quote]--> Europa-List message posted by: Jos Okhuijsen <josok-e(at)ukolo.fi>Hi ([email]josok-e(at)ukolo.fi>Hi[/email])

  

 Sorry to remember you all that my Woodcomp prop nearly took my life.

 

 I hate to repeat my words, but memories seem to be short.

 The propeller i had was equipped with microswitches, which were and ,after a change,  still are not designed for outside use.

 Nethertheless these switches are mounted on the backplate, open for weather.

 These switches are designed for AC 240 V, not for DC 12 V, and the Amp rating is way below the current going through them.

 The cross-over diodes are specified for less then half the current drawn.

 Even when activated only occasionally, it's a design flaw.

 

 Know to me are 3 incidents with short circuiting micro-switches, both other pilots could land their plane without damage to their plane or themselves.  An incident with a loose gear, causing one of the blades at a totally diffent angle then the others was reported to me, and never made it to this forum. This seems to be the happy family show, which i am now spoiling. 

  It may well be that there are others, or people never fly in rain. or are just very lucky.

 

 In my case, to the best of my knowledge, a microswitch short circuited, taking the prop to a feather situation, shortly after take-off. I had been flying in heavy rain for hours the other day.

 

 Unless thing have changed is Jyrki the only one who understands English, if he's not available you are on your own.

 

 After my incident Woodcomp banned the Smart Avionic controller. What that means is unclear to me. As far as i know, they never got there own controller working decently.

 

 As for the figures, i've had trouble to keep  up with a 912 with a fixed prop and i was flying with a 914 and a Woodcomp 3000. The only good figure seems to be the price.

 

 So in short: Save a few, risk your plane and life.

 The choice is yours....

 

 Regards,

 

 Jos Okhuijsen

 (enjoying his second life 

 

 . 26.6.2011 19:16, Frans Veldman kirjoitti:

  	  Quote: 	
		   -->  Europa-List message posted by: Frans Veldman<frans(at)privatepilots.nl (frans(at)privatepilots.nl)>

 

 On 06/26/2011 04:02 PM, Paul McAllister wrote:

  	  Quote: 	
		   I was very impressed with the results that David Joyce got with his SR

 3000W propeller from Woodcomp.  I would like to some feedback from the

 forum about there after sales experience from Woodcomp.  Please give me

 the 'good, the bad and the ugly'

 	
 I got excellent support and advice when I was ordering the propeller

 from Woodcomp directly and delivery was prompt. After that I had no

 reason to contact them again as the prop works flawlessly and performs

 better than expected. Had to service it at 50 hours and did that at a

 local Woodcomp dealer. Found that one spinner screw was missing and got

 a complete new spinner fastening set free of charge. Ordered spare

 brushes, but at the 100 hour check I discovered that the brushes were

 almost like new and it looks like it is going to take a long while

 before I have to replace them.

 

 Have now 100+ hours but have had no issues with the prop.

 A few notes though:

 1) I'm using the controller from Smart Avionics which is very

 configurable and able to match the prop exactly to the engine/airframe

 characteristics.

 2) I have a prop with feather capability (to anticipate a potential

 future use of the glider wings). The props with feather capability have

 a stronger and faster motor. Maybe this is the reason why the Woodcomp

 prop behaves like a hydraulic prop and reacts so fast that it never

 allows the RPM to surge off its target.

 

 Hope this helps,

 

 Frans

 

 

 

 

 	
 

 

 ====================================

  target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List

 ====================================

 http://forums.matronics.com

 ====================================

 le, List Admin.

 ="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution

 ====================================

 

 

 

 [b]

josok-e

Joined: 29 Jan 2010
Posts: 16
Location: Ivalo Finland

Posted: Sun Jun 26, 2011 2:49 pm Post subject: Woodcomp after Sales Service

Tim,



I've sent the report to somebody who is German en fluently in English, 

on his offer to translate. This translation takes an incredible amount 

of time obviously.

But, as a matter of fact, the investigator thanks me for diverting from 

my line of descent into an occupied office building to trees. The 

wreckage was badly burnt. He also reports that he had Woodcomp check the 

remains of the propellor, and that they stated that the blades "must 

have been at a flyable angle" Also there was no obvious fault with the 

engine. It has not been possible to determine what the cause of the 

accident was. You may doubt of course that i have summarized properly as 

well.

Significant might be also that after the accident Rotax was the first to 

talk to me, smartavionics next, the factory was very interested also. 

But no question, no word from Woodcomp.



I find it strange that you start an argument by telling us that you are 

not an expert. And reach a conclusion, which is false. I am an expert, 

electricity, electronics have been my profession and hobby. I know 

microswitches and diodes, and if i tell you they are grossly underrated 

and not up wet conditions, you can take my word for it.



My only interest is to save your lives. If you don't want it, please let 

me know.



So, let me explain how the prop ended in a non-flyable position, so 

simple that a non-expert can understand. I commanded via the controller 

to go finer. That makes the motor run the blades to fine. The motor runs 

then as long as the controller command it to go finer or the fine limit 

switch cuts the current. In this case, because the desired rpm was high, 

and i was climbing, the fine limit switch should cut in. But it didn't 

because it was burnt, and short circuited to earth. The controller 

reversed it voltage to increase pitch and we had a short circuit on the 

plus now. The circuitbreaker popped. The revs went to 6200, with no 

pull. Attempting to reset it booted the controller. Which proved it was 

still working, And after the boot it popped again, The accident 

conditions were there, low on altitude, low on speed.



I find it amazing that people defend such a product. Everybody i spoke 

to privatly admids there have been problems with communication, with 

quality of parts, with forgotten or loose parts, splitting blades, 

whatever. Oh, of course, they will cut the blades in a banana form, or 

apple, or anything else you fancy as fast. Very flexible indeed.



There is a good working product available, has been for years, factory 

choice,  with only plusses but the price.

Everybody makes a mistake, and i can admit it was my mistake to go on 

the cheap and settle for a Woodcomp.



Regards,



Jos



  27.6.2011 0:25, houlihan kirjoitti:

 	  Quote: 	
		   Hi

 Further to Jos's comments about his very serious accident I seem to 

 recall that the Austrian authorities planned to issue a report 

 regarding the possible cause.  I may have missed it so can anyone let 

 me know what it contained, preferably in English.

 Not being an expert in these things I find I have problems linking the 

 limit switch failure Jos talks about to the fact that for the 

 propeller to go to fully fine or even beyond fully fine to a beta 

 state requires the motor to be powered to drive it there. I am sure 

 there may be a mechanism that will make that happen but I cannot see 

 how it can do that just because a limit switch fails.

 Also my understanding is that Woodcomp do not support the Smartavioncs 

 controller not surprising really as it is not their product and it is 

 in competition with them but " banning" it is beyond their remit.

 Tim H



 On 26 June 2011 20:10, Jos Okhuijsen <josok-e(at)ukolo.fi 

 <mailto:josok-e(at)ukolo.fi>> wrote:



     

     <josok-e(at)ukolo.fi>Hi <mailto:josok-e(at)ukolo.fi%3EHi>



     Sorry to remember you all that my Woodcomp prop nearly took my life.



     I hate to repeat my words, but memories seem to be short.

     The propeller i had was equipped with microswitches, which were

     and ,after a change,  still are not designed for outside use.

     Nethertheless these switches are mounted on the backplate, open

     for weather.

     These switches are designed for AC 240 V, not for DC 12 V, and the

     Amp rating is way below the current going through them.

     The cross-over diodes are specified for less then half the current

     drawn.

     Even when activated only occasionally, it's a design flaw.



     Know to me are 3 incidents with short circuiting micro-switches,

     both other pilots could land their plane without damage to their

     plane or themselves.  An incident with a loose gear, causing one

     of the blades at a totally diffent angle then the others was

     reported to me, and never made it to this forum. This seems to be

     the happy family show, which i am now spoiling. 

     It may well be that there are others, or people never fly in rain.

     or are just very lucky.



     In my case, to the best of my knowledge, a microswitch short

     circuited, taking the prop to a feather situation, shortly after

     take-off. I had been flying in heavy rain for hours the other day.



     Unless thing have changed is Jyrki the only one who understands

     English, if he's not available you are on your own.



     After my incident Woodcomp banned the Smart Avionic controller.

     What that means is unclear to me. As far as i know, they never got

     there own controller working decently.



     As for the figures, i've had trouble to keep  up with a 912 with a

     fixed prop and i was flying with a 914 and a Woodcomp 3000. The

     only good figure seems to be the price.



     So in short: Save a few, risk your plane and life.

     The choice is yours....



     Regards,



     Jos Okhuijsen

     (enjoying his second life 



     . 26.6.2011 19:16, Frans Veldman kirjoitti:



         

         Veldman<frans(at)privatepilots.nl <mailto:frans(at)privatepilots.nl>>



         On 06/26/2011 04:02 PM, Paul McAllister wrote:



             I was very impressed with the results that David Joyce got

             with his SR

             3000W propeller from Woodcomp.  I would like to some

             feedback from the

             forum about there after sales experience from Woodcomp.

              Please give me

             the 'good, the bad and the ugly'



         I got excellent support and advice when I was ordering the

         propeller

         from Woodcomp directly and delivery was prompt. After that I

         had no

         reason to contact them again as the prop works flawlessly and

         performs

         better than expected. Had to service it at 50 hours and did

         that at a

         local Woodcomp dealer. Found that one spinner screw was

         missing and got

         a complete new spinner fastening set free of charge. Ordered spare

         brushes, but at the 100 hour check I discovered that the

         brushes were

         almost like new and it looks like it is going to take a long while

         before I have to replace them.



         Have now 100+ hours but have had no issues with the prop.

         A few notes though:

         1) I'm using the controller from Smart Avionics which is very

         configurable and able to match the prop exactly to the

         engine/airframe

         characteristics.

         2) I have a prop with feather capability (to anticipate a

         potential

         future use of the glider wings). The props with feather

         capability have

         a stronger and faster motor. Maybe this is the reason why the

         Woodcomp

         prop behaves like a hydraulic prop and reacts so fast that it

         never

         allows the RPM to surge off its target.



         Hope this helps,



         Frans

     ====================================

     target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List

     ====================================

     http://forums.matronics.com

     ====================================

     le, List Admin.

     ="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution

     ====================================





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carl(at)flyers.freeserve.
Guest

Posted: Sun Jun 26, 2011 2:52 pm Post subject: Woodcomp after Sales Service

Hi Paul,

 

We had to return our prop (second hand) to Woodcomp several times (nothing to do with reliability – it’s a long story).

 

The gentleman I was dealing with Jiri Holubek (at least I think that’s the correct spelling) was extremely helpful.

 

On each occasion they replaced almost everything that showed any signs of wear. Brushes, gears, micro switches, wiring etc and the blades when returned could be mistaken for new. The prop was also rebalanced on each occasion

 

I have only dealt by email but Jiri responds usually the same or next working day – his English is very good. On each occasion, the prop was serviced and returned within a week. 

 

Returning the prop to Czechoslovakia is a pricey exercise due to carriage costs but IMHO well worth it.

 

If you need any more info email me directly – carl(at)flyers.freeserve.co.uk (carl(at)flyers.freeserve.co.uk)

 

Regards,

Carl Pattinson G-LABS

 

From: owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Paul McAllister

Sent: 26 June 2011 15:03

To: europa-list(at)matronics.com

Subject: Woodcomp after Sales Service

 

Hi All,



I was very impressed with the results that David Joyce got with his SR 3000W propeller from Woodcomp.  I would like to some feedback from the forum about there after sales experience from Woodcomp.  Please give me the 'good, the bad and the ugly'



Thanks,  Paul 	  Quote: 	
		    http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List 	
0 	  Quote: 	
		   	
1 	  Quote: 	
		   	
2 	  Quote: 	
		   	
3 	  Quote: 	
		   	
4 	  Quote: 	
		   	
5 	  Quote: 	
		   	
6 	  Quote: 	
		   	
7

 



    [quote][b]

carl(at)flyers.freeserve.
Guest

Posted: Sun Jun 26, 2011 3:08 pm Post subject: Woodcomp after Sales Service

As far as I am aware Woodcomp do not ban the use of the Smart Avionics controller – Jiri was aware this was the controller of choice for me and didnt have a problem with it.

 

Regarding the allegedly faulty micro-switches It has to be accepted that micro-switches occasionally fail and this is a potential risk. On the Woodcomp installation there are 2 microswitches that should prevent  the prop going into superfine. If the first one fails, the second one cuts out 1 degree later.

 

In addition to this, most of the Woodcomp props have a physical stop that prevents the blades from going into super fine. Its only when the reverse pitch option is used that this ultimate safety feature is lost.

 

Moral of the story is don’t have a prop that can go into reverse pitch. In the UK the LAA won’t allow a CS prop without physical limit stops for that very reason.

 

Carl Pattinson

 

From: owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of houlihan

Sent: 26 June 2011 22:25

To: europa-list(at)matronics.com

Subject: Re: Woodcomp after Sales Service

 

Hi 



 



Further to Jos's comments about his very serious accident I seem to recall that the Austrian authorities planned to issue a report regarding the possible cause.  I may have missed it so can anyone let me know what it contained, preferably in English.



 



Not being an expert in these things I find I have problems linking the limit switch failure Jos talks about to the fact that for the propeller to go to fully fine or even beyond fully fine to a beta state requires the motor to be powered to drive it there. I am sure there may be a mechanism that will make that happen but I cannot see how it can do that just because a limit switch fails.



 



Also my understanding is that Woodcomp do not support the Smartavioncs controller not surprising really as it is not their product and it is in competition with them but " banning" it is beyond their remit.



 



Tim H



 



 

 



On 26 June 2011 20:10, Jos Okhuijsen <josok-e(at)ukolo.fi (josok-e(at)ukolo.fi)> wrote:

--> Europa-List message posted by: Jos Okhuijsen <josok-e(at)ukolo.fi>Hi ([email]josok-e(at)ukolo.fi%3eHi[/email])



Sorry to remember you all that my Woodcomp prop nearly took my life.



I hate to repeat my words, but memories seem to be short.

The propeller i had was equipped with microswitches, which were and ,after a change,  still are not designed for outside use.

Nethertheless these switches are mounted on the backplate, open for weather.

These switches are designed for AC 240 V, not for DC 12 V, and the Amp rating is way below the current going through them.

The cross-over diodes are specified for less then half the current drawn.

Even when activated only occasionally, it's a design flaw.



Know to me are 3 incidents with short circuiting micro-switches, both other pilots could land their plane without damage to their plane or themselves.  An incident with a loose gear, causing one of the blades at a totally diffent angle then the others was reported to me, and never made it to this forum. This seems to be the happy family show, which i am now spoiling. 

It may well be that there are others, or people never fly in rain. or are just very lucky.



In my case, to the best of my knowledge, a microswitch short circuited, taking the prop to a feather situation, shortly after take-off. I had been flying in heavy rain for hours the other day.



Unless thing have changed is Jyrki the only one who understands English, if he's not available you are on your own.



After my incident Woodcomp banned the Smart Avionic controller. What that means is unclear to me. As far as i know, they never got there own controller working decently.



As for the figures, i've had trouble to keep  up with a 912 with a fixed prop and i was flying with a 914 and a Woodcomp 3000. The only good figure seems to be the price.



So in short: Save a few, risk your plane and life.

The choice is yours....



Regards,



Jos Okhuijsen

(enjoying his second life 



. 26.6.2011 19:16, Frans Veldman kirjoitti:

-->  Europa-List message posted by: Frans Veldman<frans(at)privatepilots.nl (frans(at)privatepilots.nl)>



On 06/26/2011 04:02 PM, Paul McAllister wrote:

I was very impressed with the results that David Joyce got with his SR

3000W propeller from Woodcomp.  I would like to some feedback from the

forum about there after sales experience from Woodcomp.  Please give me

the 'good, the bad and the ugly'

I got excellent support and advice when I was ordering the propeller

from Woodcomp directly and delivery was prompt. After that I had no

reason to contact them again as the prop works flawlessly and performs

better than expected. Had to service it at 50 hours and did that at a

local Woodcomp dealer. Found that one spinner screw was missing and got

a complete new spinner fastening set free of charge. Ordered spare

brushes, but at the 100 hour check I discovered that the brushes were

almost like new and it looks like it is going to take a long while

before I have to replace them.



Have now 100+ hours but have had no issues with the prop.

A few notes though:

1) I'm using the controller from Smart Avionics which is very

configurable and able to match the prop exactly to the engine/airframe

characteristics.

2) I have a prop with feather capability (to anticipate a potential

future use of the glider wings). The props with feather capability have

a stronger and faster motor. Maybe this is the reason why the Woodcomp

prop behaves like a hydraulic prop and reacts so fast that it never

allows the RPM to surge off its target.



Hope this helps,



Frans

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7

 



    [quote][b]

josok-e

Joined: 29 Jan 2010
Posts: 16
Location: Ivalo Finland

Posted: Sun Jun 26, 2011 9:03 pm Post subject: Woodcomp after Sales Service

Carl,



Microswitches do not regularely fail. Their MTBF is typical one ot 10 

million.

However, thanks for confirming this, in this (Woodcomp) application they 

fail for 2 reasons.

Wrong environment, not intended for outdoor use.

Underrated for heavy DC current.

Maybe an example helps. Take a look at the brake-light switch of your 

car. It would be a typical place for a microswitch, but instead a 4 

times bigger lump sits there. Why? Because it has to switch DC, although 

far less then for a heavy motor. Becaue the inside of a car is not 

classiefied as dry, although it will seldom rain there.



Failsafing with a second switch does not help.

It just doubles the fail factor.

In case of water ingress this might be clear, there are now 2 paths to 

short.

As help for underrated switches, it is even for layman fairly easy to 

understand that due to unavoidable mechanical tolerances, the switches 

will never switch at te same time. As a result all load will be carried 

by one switch.

Until it has melted, which will never be discovered until the second one 

goes. Unless it melts to ground.



Another monkey story indeed is the mechanical stop. If all fails, that 

should stop the blades from running in idle.

In flying you have to be sure that your minimal pitch is flyable. How 

sure are you that your mechanical stop A does keep you in the air and B 

does not burn your motor or break the gears? How many of you Woodcomp 

jockeys do test their electrical endstops on a regular bases? Who has 

ever tested the mechanical endstops?



Maybe its is easyer to forget and just enjoy flying. But recommending 

your favourite deathtrap goes really one step too far. Wether you have a 

regular, reversing or feathering woodcomp prop. The prop on OH-XJO took 

182 hours before it tried to kill me.



Regards,



Jos OKhuijsen

27.6.2011 2:05, Carl Pattinson kirjoitti:

 	  Quote: 	
		  

 As far as I am aware Woodcomp do not ban the use of the Smart Avionics 

 controller – Jiri was aware this was the controller of choice for me 

 and didnt have a problem with it.



 Regarding the allegedly faulty micro-switches It has to be accepted 

 that micro-switches occasionally fail and this is a potential risk. On 

 the Woodcomp installation there are 2 microswitches that should 

 prevent the prop going into superfine. If the first one fails, the 

 second one cuts out 1 degree later.



 In addition to this, most of the Woodcomp props have a physical stop 

 that prevents the blades from going into super fine. Its only when the 

 reverse pitch option is used that this ultimate safety feature is lost.



 Moral of the story is don’t have a prop that can go into reverse 

 pitch. In the UK the LAA won’t allow a CS prop without physical limit 

 stops for that very reason.



 Carl Pattinson



 *From:*owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com 

 [mailto:owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com] *On Behalf Of *houlihan

 *Sent:* 26 June 2011 22:25

 *To:* europa-list(at)matronics.com

 *Subject:* Re: Woodcomp after Sales Service



 Hi



 Further to Jos's comments about his very serious accident I seem to 

 recall that the Austrian authorities planned to issue a report 

 regarding the possible cause. I may have missed it so can anyone let 

 me know what it contained, preferably in English.



 Not being an expert in these things I find I have problems linking the 

 limit switch failure Jos talks about to the fact that for the 

 propeller to go to fully fine or even beyond fully fine to a beta 

 state requires the motor to be powered to drive it there. I am sure 

 there may be a mechanism that will make that happen but I cannot see 

 how it can do that just because a limit switch fails.



 Also my understanding is that Woodcomp do not support the Smartavioncs 

 controller not surprising really as it is not their product and it is 

 in competition with them but " banning" it is beyond their remit.



 Tim H

 On 26 June 2011 20:10, Jos Okhuijsen <josok-e(at)ukolo.fi 

 <mailto:josok-e(at)ukolo.fi>> wrote:



 

 <mailto:josok-e(at)ukolo.fi%3eHi>



 Sorry to remember you all that my Woodcomp prop nearly took my life.



 I hate to repeat my words, but memories seem to be short.

 The propeller i had was equipped with microswitches, which were and 

 ,after a change, still are not designed for outside use.

 Nethertheless these switches are mounted on the backplate, open for 

 weather.

 These switches are designed for AC 240 V, not for DC 12 V, and the Amp 

 rating is way below the current going through them.

 The cross-over diodes are specified for less then half the current drawn.

 Even when activated only occasionally, it's a design flaw.



 Know to me are 3 incidents with short circuiting micro-switches, both 

 other pilots could land their plane without damage to their plane or 

 themselves. An incident with a loose gear, causing one of the blades 

 at a totally diffent angle then the others was reported to me, and 

 never made it to this forum. This seems to be the happy family show, 

 which i am now spoiling. 

 It may well be that there are others, or people never fly in rain. or 

 are just very lucky.



 In my case, to the best of my knowledge, a microswitch short 

 circuited, taking the prop to a feather situation, shortly after 

 take-off. I had been flying in heavy rain for hours the other day.



 Unless thing have changed is Jyrki the only one who understands 

 English, if he's not available you are on your own.



 After my incident Woodcomp banned the Smart Avionic controller. What 

 that means is unclear to me. As far as i know, they never got there 

 own controller working decently.



 As for the figures, i've had trouble to keep up with a 912 with a 

 fixed prop and i was flying with a 914 and a Woodcomp 3000. The only 

 good figure seems to be the price.



 So in short: Save a few, risk your plane and life.

 The choice is yours....



 Regards,



 Jos Okhuijsen

 (enjoying his second life 



 . 26.6.2011 19:16, Frans Veldman kirjoitti:



 

 Veldman<frans(at)privatepilots.nl <mailto:frans(at)privatepilots.nl>>



 On 06/26/2011 04:02 PM, Paul McAllister wrote:



 I was very impressed with the results that David Joyce got with his SR

 3000W propeller from Woodcomp. I would like to some feedback from the

 forum about there after sales experience from Woodcomp. Please give me

 the 'good, the bad and the ugly'



 I got excellent support and advice when I was ordering the propeller

 from Woodcomp directly and delivery was prompt. After that I had no

 reason to contact them again as the prop works flawlessly and performs

 better than expected. Had to service it at 50 hours and did that at a

 local Woodcomp dealer. Found that one spinner screw was missing and got

 a complete new spinner fastening set free of charge. Ordered spare

 brushes, but at the 100 hour check I discovered that the brushes were

 almost like new and it looks like it is going to take a long while

 before I have to replace them.



 Have now 100+ hours but have had no issues with the prop.

 A few notes though:

 1) I'm using the controller from Smart Avionics which is very

 configurable and able to match the prop exactly to the engine/airframe

 characteristics.

 2) I have a prop with feather capability (to anticipate a potential

 future use of the glider wings). The props with feather capability have

 a stronger and faster motor. Maybe this is the reason why the Woodcomp

 prop behaves like a hydraulic prop and reacts so fast that it never

 allows the RPM to surge off its target.



 Hope this helps,



 Frans



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houlihan(at)blueyonder.co
Guest

Posted: Mon Jun 27, 2011 12:28 am Post subject: Woodcomp after Sales Service

Hi Jos.

 

Thanks for your prompt reply.

I think you have cleared up my problem I could not see how a limit switch failure could cause the blade angle to change if the blade was within its normal operating range. Yes a limit switch failure could allow the blade to travel beyond its normal limit but the pitch change motor would still have to be driven ( commanded or uncommanded ) to move the blades beyond their normal range. This was the part I did not understand. As the Smart controller in its normal ie not in manual control, acts as a closed loop servo system with a given engine RPM as its target it  should have increased the pitch as the RPM approached the target, I may be wrong but I would NOT have expected the blades to reach their fine pitch limit at that phase in the flight .

  

As to my expertise I do not claim to be an expert in anything at all. But I do have experience, I was trained by the Royal Air Force as an airborne radar technician and spent ten years ( admittedly forty years ago !) working in what was then Signals Command on a electronic counter measures squadron. On leaving the Air Force I was for seven years a Flight Trials Engineer with British Aerospace military aircraft division commissioning developing and maintaining what was then the worlds first digital airborne data acquisition system. In later years I worked on large format printing systems using both analogue and digital servo systems.

  

We have to accept that homebuilt aircraft are not as reliable and safe as a fully certified one and we therefore take on extra risk with our types of aircraft. In the UK we try minimise the risk by having our association double check that our alterations from the standard design appear to be safe and the changes are justified. 

  

You mention the RPM reached 6,200 just a little story I was told by a friend who is no longer with us. He operated out of a small strip and set his propeller to reach max RPM of 5,800 and flew it like that for some years he then had reason to have his RPM gauge calibrated and found that what he thought was 5,800 was actually 6,200. his gauge had never been calibrated and was under reading

  

Enjoy your second life Jos

 

best regards

 

Tim H

On 26 June 2011 23:46, josok-e <josok-e(at)ukolo.fi (josok-e(at)ukolo.fi)> wrote

 [quote]Tim,

 

 I've sent the report to somebody who is German en fluently in English, on his offer to translate. This translation takes an incredible amount of time obviously.

 But, as a matter of fact, the investigator thanks me for diverting from my line of descent into an occupied office building to trees. The wreckage was badly burnt. He also reports that he had Woodcomp check the remains of the propellor, and that they stated that the blades "must have been at a flyable angle" Also there was no obvious fault with the engine. It has not been possible to determine what the cause of the accident was. You may doubt of course that i have summarized properly as well.

  Significant might be also that after the accident Rotax was the first to talk to me, smartavionics next, the factory was very interested also. But no question, no word from Woodcomp.

 

 I find it strange that you start an argument by telling us that you are not an expert. And reach a conclusion, which is false. I am an expert, electricity, electronics have been my profession and hobby. I know microswitches and diodes, and if i tell you they are grossly underrated and not up wet conditions, you can take my word for it.

  

 My only interest is to save your lives. If you don't want it, please let me know.

 

 So, let me explain how the prop ended in a non-flyable position, so simple that a non-expert can understand. I commanded via the controller to go finer. That makes the motor run the blades to fine. The motor runs then as long as the controller command it to go finer or the fine limit switch cuts the current. In this case, because the desired rpm was high, and i was climbing, the fine limit switch should cut in. But it didn't because it was burnt, and short circuited to earth. The controller reversed it voltage to increase pitch and we had a short circuit on the plus now. The circuitbreaker popped. The revs went to 6200, with no pull. Attempting to reset it booted the controller. Which proved it was still working, And after the boot it popped again, The accident conditions were there, low on altitude, low on speed.

  

 I find it amazing that people defend such a product. Everybody i spoke to privatly admids there have been problems with communication, with quality of parts, with forgotten or loose parts, splitting blades, whatever. Oh, of course, they will cut the blades in a banana form, or apple, or anything else you fancy as fast. Very flexible indeed.

  

 There is a good working product available, has been for years, factory choice,  with only plusses but the price.

 Everybody makes a mistake, and i can admit it was my mistake to go on the cheap and settle for a Woodcomp.

 

 Regards,

 

 Jos

 

 

 

  27.6.2011 0:25, houlihan kirjoitti:

  	  Quote: 	
		   Hi

 Further to Jos's comments about his very serious accident I seem to recall that the Austrian authorities planned to issue a report regarding the possible cause.  I may have missed it so can anyone let me know what it contained, preferably in English.

  Not being an expert in these things I find I have problems linking the limit switch failure Jos talks about to the fact that for the propeller to go to fully fine or even beyond fully fine to a beta state requires the motor to be powered to drive it there. I am sure there may be a mechanism that will make that happen but I cannot see how it can do that just because a limit switch fails.

  Also my understanding is that Woodcomp do not support the Smartavioncs controller not surprising really as it is not their product and it is in competition with them but " banning" it is beyond their remit.

  Tim H

 



 On 26 June 2011 20:10, Jos Okhuijsen <josok-e(at)ukolo.fi (josok-e(at)ukolo.fi) <mailto:josok-e(at)ukolo.fi (josok-e(at)ukolo.fi)>> wrote:

 

     --> Europa-List message posted by: Jos Okhuijsen



     <josok-e(at)ukolo.fi (josok-e(at)ukolo.fi)>Hi <mailto:josok-e(at)ukolo.fi (josok-e(at)ukolo.fi)%3EHi>



 

     Sorry to remember you all that my Woodcomp prop nearly took my life.

 

     I hate to repeat my words, but memories seem to be short.

     The propeller i had was equipped with microswitches, which were

     and ,after a change,  still are not designed for outside use.

     Nethertheless these switches are mounted on the backplate, open

     for weather.

     These switches are designed for AC 240 V, not for DC 12 V, and the

     Amp rating is way below the current going through them.

     The cross-over diodes are specified for less then half the current

     drawn.

     Even when activated only occasionally, it's a design flaw.

 

     Know to me are 3 incidents with short circuiting micro-switches,

     both other pilots could land their plane without damage to their

     plane or themselves.  An incident with a loose gear, causing one

     of the blades at a totally diffent angle then the others was

     reported to me, and never made it to this forum. This seems to be

     the happy family show, which i am now spoiling. 

     It may well be that there are others, or people never fly in rain.

     or are just very lucky.

 

     In my case, to the best of my knowledge, a microswitch short

     circuited, taking the prop to a feather situation, shortly after

     take-off. I had been flying in heavy rain for hours the other day.

 

     Unless thing have changed is Jyrki the only one who understands

     English, if he's not available you are on your own.

 

     After my incident Woodcomp banned the Smart Avionic controller.

     What that means is unclear to me. As far as i know, they never got

     there own controller working decently.

 

     As for the figures, i've had trouble to keep  up with a 912 with a

     fixed prop and i was flying with a 914 and a Woodcomp 3000. The

     only good figure seems to be the price.

 

     So in short: Save a few, risk your plane and life.

     The choice is yours....

 

     Regards,

 

     Jos Okhuijsen

     (enjoying his second life 

 

     . 26.6.2011 19:16, Frans Veldman kirjoitti:

 

         -->  Europa-List message posted by: Frans

         Veldman<frans(at)privatepilots.nl (frans(at)privatepilots.nl) <mailto:frans(at)privatepilots.nl (frans(at)privatepilots.nl)>> 



 

         On 06/26/2011 04:02 PM, Paul McAllister wrote:

 

             I was very impressed with the results that David Joyce got

             with his SR

             3000W propeller from Woodcomp.  I would like to some

             feedback from the

             forum about there after sales experience from Woodcomp.

              Please give me

             the 'good, the bad and the ugly'

 

         I got excellent support and advice when I was ordering the

         propeller

         from Woodcomp directly and delivery was prompt. After that I

         had no

         reason to contact them again as the prop works flawlessly and

         performs

         better than expected. Had to service it at 50 hours and did

         that at a

         local Woodcomp dealer. Found that one spinner screw was

         missing and got

         a complete new spinner fastening set free of charge. Ordered spare

         brushes, but at the 100 hour check I discovered that the

         brushes were

         almost like new and it looks like it is going to take a long while

         before I have to replace them.

 

         Have now 100+ hours but have had no issues with the prop.

         A few notes though:

         1) I'm using the controller from Smart Avionics which is very

         configurable and able to match the prop exactly to the

         engine/airframe

         characteristics.

         2) I have a prop with feather capability (to anticipate a

         potential

         future use of the glider wings). The props with feather

         capability have

         a stronger and faster motor. Maybe this is the reason why the

         Woodcomp

         prop behaves like a hydraulic prop and reacts so fast that it

         never

         allows the RPM to surge off its target.

 

         Hope this helps,

 

         Frans

 

 

 

 

 

 

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     ====================================

     http://forums.matronics.com

     ====================================

     le, List Admin.

     ="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution

     ====================================

 

 

 

 

 *

 

 

 *

 	
 

 [b]

davidjoyce(at)doctors.org
Guest

Posted: Mon Jun 27, 2011 1:15 am Post subject: Woodcomp after Sales Service

Jos, I count you as a good friend but have to dispute many of your 

statements. I also will state that I am no expert, but nevertheless am a 

very interested amateur prepared to go to great lengths to get to the bottom 

of something that affects my safety, ( and having said that Tim did spend  a 

lot of years as a radar/ electronics technician in the RAF). I have on the 

other hand been a sort of unofficial (but unpaid I hasten to add) Woodcomp 

agent in the UK having brought (and bought) the first Woodcomp prop into the 

UK and then pursued the very lengthy process of getting it fully accepted by 

the PFA.

           As you know I was there at the accident, with the same plane and 

the same controller and the same SR3000 (albeit without the reverse option). 

I flew back to try to help you and  subsequently examined the wreckage and 

spent some time helping the Austrian AAIB man. As the accident happened 

flying out of the Rotax Factory Flyin it's not surprising that they were 

quickly able to help. Secondly since Mark Burton, owner of Smart 

Avionics,was flying with us he was quick to talk to the investigator. I may 

say that I gave the investigator my copies of the Smart Avionics controller 

and SR3000 handbooks and allowed him to  look at the complete workings of my 

set up which was the official factory set up of an SR3000 without the 

reverse option that you had and without the non Woodcomp/personal 

simplifications to the wiring system that you had incorporated into the 

circuitry. There wasn't too much left of the plane after the fire but the 

prop hub was there and it was apparent that the blades were close to zero 

pitch, so that regardless of how they got there it would be safe to say that 

a similar accident could not happen with an SR3000 that does not have the 

reverse option (which is not accepted by the LAA following your accident), 

as the standard props have not only electronic stops at the fine limits but 

also mechanical ones.

          My understanding of the investigation was that no prime cause 

could be positively identified, and if I do not misquote him I believe this 

is also Mark Burton's view (who is also of course an electronics 

professional.)

          The microswitches have changed over the years largely to improve 

their mechanical security but whether they are waterproof or not seems a bit 

irrelevant. I have flown through prolonged rain and found no problems, and 

you would expect that any water finding its way into a structure rotating at 

2000+ rpm would very rapidly find its way out again. If you had parked the 

plane under a waterfall and the spinner was full of water before start up 

you might expect to notice problems when you switched on and went though the 

recommended pitch change check.

          You refer to the problem experienced by someone having some teeth 

break on the gearing that determines the pitch angle of each blade and this 

was promptly dealt with by Woodcomp  replacing it  both on new models and 

retrospectively with a slightly heavier version of the gears. Woodcomp 

certainly have no problem about the Smartavionics controller which is the 

choice of the majority o f the substantial number of UK Woodcomp owners.

           Apart from your problem I have not come across problems that were 

not of the failsafe variety, and feel that describing the prop as a 

deathtrap is entirely unwarranted

      Regards and best wishes David, G-XSDJ

   You mention



 ---

josok-e

Joined: 29 Jan 2010
Posts: 16
Location: Ivalo Finland

Posted: Mon Jun 27, 2011 3:37 am Post subject: Woodcomp after Sales Service

David, good friend,



Thanks for your honest explanation of your bias towards Woodcomp. Your 

position, as their unpaid salesman must be awkward, and it must be very 

difficult to change your position.

  I on my turn have to admit that it has taken a long time to recover 

mentally and be able to reason clearly and stronly about the accident.

Your next quote takes us to the cultprit of our difference of 

interpretation of the facts.



"and it was apparent that the blades were close to zero pitch, so that 

regardless of how they got there it would be safe to say that a similar 

accident could not happen with an SR3000 that does not have the reverse 

option (which is not accepted by the LAA following your accident), as 

the standard props have not only electronic stops at the fine limits but 

also mechanical ones. "



According to woodcomp, invited by the inspector, the blades were at a 

flyable pitch. Remembering the lack of thrust, and the overrevving, they 

must have been at a positive angle, NOT REVERSE, but with a pitch not 

enough to stay airborne.

Why stopped the motor at that blade position and not later or sooner?

Because, at the same moment the microswitch should cut in, it burned 

with a short circuit to ground, defying it's purpose and allowing the 

motor to run further. Next,  adding throttle, the controller jumped in, 

reversing the polarity of the motor. The voltage now came direct, not 

anymore over the motor, on the microswitch and the breaker popped.



Blaming the accident on the reversbility of the prop, thus assuming that 

a mechanical endstop makes it impossible for the prop to turn too fine 

to fly is mute as long nobody ever has checked that mechanical endstop.



Sofar i have not heard of anybody who has checked this mechanical 

endstop on the non-reversable prop. Unless somebody, preferrably you, 

shorts or otherwise disables the end switches, and runs the motor till 

it jams, relying on the mechanical stop is not very wise to say the 

least. It would be also interesting to know if the gears would survive 

such a try.



Has the LAA approved the feathering version? There is no mechanical 

endstop on the course side. Even more people will be relying on non 

reliable microswitches.



I think it was Mark of Smartavionics who told be about Woodcomp banning 

its product. Mark, correct me if i am wrong.



Next one:

"The microswitches have changed over the years largely to improve their 

mechanical security but whether they are waterproof or not seems a bit 

irrelevant. I have flown through prolonged rain and found no problems, 

and you would expect that any water finding its way into a structure 

rotating at 2000+ rpm would very rapidly find its way out again. If you 

had parked the plane under a waterfall and the spinner was full of water 

before start up you might expect to notice problems when you switched on 

and went though the recommended pitch change check. "



I read that as "there have been problems with the microswitches over the 

years". I challenge you to find any application were microswitches are 

used in open air. None are to be found in cars for example. As for 

flying in rain, and the behavior of water and air on a spinning service, 

have a look at any centrifugal pump. The backplate of the spinner, where 

the switches are and the big end opening in the cowl form such a pump. 

The rotating plate sheds water and air from it's side and sucks more 

in.....  As for the pitch range check: The only thing you do is check 

that at that moment things are ok. It does not improve the quality of 

these switches.



Apart from that everybody will hopefully understand the importance of 

using weatherproof components in weather. There are classes for humidity 

for electrical components and appliances. Those microswitches are 

manufactured for dry room use. And, let's not forget, they are heavily 

underrated in current as well.  Proper switches for the application 

would physically never fit on that backplate.



I hope the LAA will review its approval. I don't quite understand how 

this item passed in the first place.



Regards,



Jos

27.6.2011 12:12, David Joyce kirjoitti:

[quote] 

 <davidjoyce(at)doctors.org.uk>



 Jos, I count you as a good friend but have to dispute many of your 

 statements. I also will state that I am no expert, but nevertheless am 

 a very interested amateur prepared to go to great lengths to get to 

 the bottom of something that affects my safety, ( and having said that 

 Tim did spend  a lot of years as a radar/ electronics technician in 

 the RAF). I have on the other hand been a sort of unofficial (but 

 unpaid I hasten to add) Woodcomp agent in the UK having brought (and 

 bought) the first Woodcomp prop into the UK and then pursued the very 

 lengthy process of getting it fully accepted by the PFA.

           As you know I was there at the accident, with the same plane 

 and the same controller and the same SR3000 (albeit without the 

 reverse option). I flew back to try to help you and  subsequently 

 examined the wreckage and spent some time helping the Austrian AAIB 

 man. As the accident happened flying out of the Rotax Factory Flyin 

 it's not surprising that they were quickly able to help. Secondly 

 since Mark Burton, owner of Smart Avionics,was flying with us he was 

 quick to talk to the investigator. I may say that I gave the 

 investigator my copies of the Smart Avionics controller and SR3000 

 handbooks and allowed him to  look at the complete workings of my set 

 up which was the official factory set up of an SR3000 without the 

 reverse option that you had and without the non Woodcomp/personal 

 simplifications to the wiring system that you had incorporated into 

 the circuitry. There wasn't too much left of the plane after the fire 

 but the prop hub was there and it was apparent that the blades were 

 close to zero pitch, so that regardless of how they got there it would 

 be safe to say that a similar accident could not happen with an SR3000 

 that does not have the reverse option (which is not accepted by the 

 LAA following your accident), as the standard props have not only 

 electronic stops at the fine limits but also mechanical ones.

          My understanding of the investigation was that no prime cause 

 could be positively identified, and if I do not misquote him I believe 

 this is also Mark Burton's view (who is also of course an electronics 

 professional.)

          The microswitches have changed over the years largely to 

 improve their mechanical security but whether they are waterproof or 

 not seems a bit irrelevant. I have flown through prolonged rain and 

 found no problems, and you would expect that any water finding its way 

 into a structure rotating at 2000+ rpm would very rapidly find its way 

 out again. If you had parked the plane under a waterfall and the 

 spinner was full of water before start up you might expect to notice 

 problems when you switched on and went though the recommended pitch 

 change check.

          You refer to the problem experienced by someone having some 

 teeth break on the gearing that determines the pitch angle of each 

 blade and this was promptly dealt with by Woodcomp  replacing it  both 

 on new models and retrospectively with a slightly heavier version of 

 the gears. Woodcomp certainly have no problem about the Smartavionics 

 controller which is the choice of the majority o f the substantial 

 number of UK Woodcomp owners.

           Apart from your problem I have not come across problems that 

 were not of the failsafe variety, and feel that describing the prop as 

 a deathtrap is entirely unwarranted

      Regards and best wishes David, G-XSDJ

   You mention



 ---

davidlewendon(at)me.com
Guest

Posted: Mon Jun 27, 2011 3:58 am Post subject: Woodcomp after Sales Service

Ooh now come on ladies put those handbags away! It's getting more and  

more like Prime Ministers questions.

On 27 juin 11, at 13:34, Jos Okhuijsen wrote:



[quote] 



 David, good friend,



 Thanks for your honest explanation of your bias towards Woodcomp.  

 Your position, as their unpaid salesman must be awkward, and it must  

 be very difficult to change your position.

 I on my turn have to admit that it has taken a long time to recover  

 mentally and be able to reason clearly and stronly about the accident.

 Your next quote takes us to the cultprit of our difference of  

 interpretation of the facts.



 "and it was apparent that the blades were close to zero pitch, so  

 that regardless of how they got there it would be safe to say that a  

 similar accident could not happen with an SR3000 that does not have  

 the reverse option (which is not accepted by the LAA following your  

 accident), as the standard props have not only electronic stops at  

 the fine limits but also mechanical ones. "



 According to woodcomp, invited by the inspector, the blades were at  

 a flyable pitch. Remembering the lack of thrust, and the  

 overrevving, they must have been at a positive angle, NOT REVERSE,  

 but with a pitch not enough to stay airborne.

 Why stopped the motor at that blade position and not later or sooner?

 Because, at the same moment the microswitch should cut in, it burned  

 with a short circuit to ground, defying it's purpose and allowing  

 the motor to run further. Next,  adding throttle, the controller  

 jumped in, reversing the polarity of the motor. The voltage now came  

 direct, not anymore over the motor, on the microswitch and the  

 breaker popped.



 Blaming the accident on the reversbility of the prop, thus assuming  

 that a mechanical endstop makes it impossible for the prop to turn  

 too fine to fly is mute as long nobody ever has checked that  

 mechanical endstop.



 Sofar i have not heard of anybody who has checked this mechanical  

 endstop on the non-reversable prop. Unless somebody, preferrably  

 you, shorts or otherwise disables the end switches, and runs the  

 motor till it jams, relying on the mechanical stop is not very wise  

 to say the least. It would be also interesting to know if the gears  

 would survive such a try.



 Has the LAA approved the feathering version? There is no mechanical  

 endstop on the course side. Even more people will be relying on non  

 reliable microswitches.



 I think it was Mark of Smartavionics who told be about Woodcomp  

 banning its product. Mark, correct me if i am wrong.



 Next one:

 "The microswitches have changed over the years largely to improve  

 their mechanical security but whether they are waterproof or not  

 seems a bit irrelevant. I have flown through prolonged rain and  

 found no problems, and you would expect that any water finding its  

 way into a structure rotating at 2000+ rpm would very rapidly find  

 its way out again. If you had parked the plane under a waterfall and  

 the spinner was full of water before start up you might expect to  

 notice problems when you switched on and went though the recommended  

 pitch change check. "



 I read that as "there have been problems with the microswitches over  

 the years". I challenge you to find any application were  

 microswitches are used in open air. None are to be found in cars for  

 example. As for flying in rain, and the behavior of water and air on  

 a spinning service, have a look at any centrifugal pump. The  

 backplate of the spinner, where the switches are and the big end  

 opening in the cowl form such a pump. The rotating plate sheds water  

 and air from it's side and sucks more in.....  As for the pitch  

 range check: The only thing you do is check that at that moment  

 things are ok. It does not improve the quality of these switches.



 Apart from that everybody will hopefully understand the importance  

 of using weatherproof components in weather. There are classes for  

 humidity for electrical components and appliances. Those  

 microswitches are manufactured for dry room use. And, let's not  

 forget, they are heavily underrated in current as well.  Proper  

 switches for the application would physically never fit on that  

 backplate.



 I hope the LAA will review its approval. I don't quite understand  

 how this item passed in the first place.



 Regards,



 Jos

 27.6.2011 12:12, David Joyce kirjoitti:

> 

> >

>

> Jos, I count you as a good friend but have to dispute many of your  

> statements. I also will state that I am no expert, but nevertheless  

> am a very interested amateur prepared to go to great lengths to get  

> to the bottom of something that affects my safety, ( and having  

> said that Tim did spend  a lot of years as a radar/ electronics  

> technician in the RAF). I have on the other hand been a sort of  

> unofficial (but unpaid I hasten to add) Woodcomp agent in the UK  

> having brought (and bought) the first Woodcomp prop into the UK and  

> then pursued the very lengthy process of getting it fully accepted  

> by the PFA.

>          As you know I was there at the accident, with the same  

> plane and the same controller and the same SR3000 (albeit without  

> the reverse option). I flew back to try to help you and   

> subsequently examined the wreckage and spent some time helping the  

> Austrian AAIB man. As the accident happened flying out of the Rotax  

> Factory Flyin it's not surprising that they were quickly able to  

> help. Secondly since Mark Burton, owner of Smart Avionics,was  

> flying with us he was quick to talk to the investigator. I may say  

> that I gave the investigator my copies of the Smart Avionics  

> controller and SR3000 handbooks and allowed him to  look at the  

> complete workings of my set up which was the official factory set  

> up of an SR3000 without the reverse option that you had and without  

> the non Woodcomp/personal simplifications to the wiring system that  

> you had incorporated into the circuitry. There wasn't too much left  

> of the plane after the fire but the prop hub was there and it was  

> apparent that the blades were close to zero pitch, so that  

> regardless of how they got there it would be safe to say that a  

> similar accident could not happen with an SR3000 that does not have  

> the reverse option (which is not accepted by the LAA following your  

> accident), as the standard props have not only electronic stops at  

> the fine limits but also mechanical ones.

>         My understanding of the investigation was that no prime  

> cause could be positively identified, and if I do not misquote him  

> I believe this is also Mark Burton's view (who is also of course an  

> electronics professional.)

>         The microswitches have changed over the years largely to  

> improve their mechanical security but whether they are waterproof  

> or not seems a bit irrelevant. I have flown through prolonged rain  

> and found no problems, and you would expect that any water finding  

> its way into a structure rotating at 2000+ rpm would very rapidly  

> find its way out again. If you had parked the plane under a  

> waterfall and the spinner was full of water before start up you  

> might expect to notice problems when you switched on and went  

> though the recommended pitch change check.

>         You refer to the problem experienced by someone having some  

> teeth break on the gearing that determines the pitch angle of each  

> blade and this was promptly dealt with by Woodcomp  replacing it   

> both on new models and retrospectively with a slightly heavier  

> version of the gears. Woodcomp certainly have no problem about the  

> Smartavionics controller which is the choice of the majority o f  

> the substantial number of UK Woodcomp owners.

>          Apart from your problem I have not come across problems  

> that were not of the failsafe variety, and feel that describing the  

> prop as a deathtrap is entirely unwarranted

>     Regards and best wishes David, G-XSDJ

>  You mention

>

> ---

Remi Guerner

Joined: 14 Dec 2010
Posts: 284

Posted: Mon Jun 27, 2011 4:13 am Post subject: Woodcomp after Sales Service

Carl,



I will not comment on Woodcomp as I am using an Airmaster. Note that  

the Airmaster Is accepted by the LAA in spite of having no coarse  

pitch physical (I mean mechanical) stop due to the feathering feature.  

Moreover the fine pitch mechanical stop (not adjustable) is at 2  

degree blade tip angle which is useless as it is way too low to allow  

horizontal flight with the Europa.



Remi Guerner

<<<<<< In the UK the LAA won't allow a CS prop without physical limit  

stops for that

very reason.>>>>>>>>

Fergus Kyle

Joined: 03 Jun 2007
Posts: 291
Location: Burlington ON Canada

Posted: Mon Jun 27, 2011 5:12 am Post subject: Woodcomp after sales service

Jos,  

        I am sorry for your accident and was careful to Google Earth your flight path – amazed at your survival in view of the circumstances. Naturally like most of us I can see why you would be angry at the outcome.  

        Nevertheless, because I ahve a Woodcomp (as yet untested) I am interested in any and all discussions regarding it. I researched the company and am aware of its foundation in a healthy (if socialist) industry – at which they were fairly productive. Content with their family tree, I consulted a number of buyers, all of whom appeared content with the firm. I then visited Woodcomp north of Prague and was satisfied with the plant and its resources – modern, clean and efficient – four hours.  

        In the process of installation, I managed to snap off one of the sintered brushes which transfer the energy to the rotating prop – and sent off a request for a replacement. It was not a design fault – I just had little room to manoeuvre in my spare bedroom and whacked it in passing. Jiri Holoubek didn’t reply, so I sent a chaser. Apparently he was away and when he returned, I got an email requesting clarification. On receipt of my reply, along came two brushes in the mail – no charge.  

        I am a licensed amateur builder but no electronic expert as you are apparently, but I assembled the prop and its controls without difficulty and ran the tests with no trouble.  

        The faults you ascribe to the design were there when you assembled it, yet we got no complaint then in spite of what appears to an expert to be obvious failings. So my question is: Did you modify the system at all prior to the accident?  

Regards, Ferg  

            [quote][b]

josok-e

Joined: 29 Jan 2010
Posts: 16
Location: Ivalo Finland

Posted: Mon Jun 27, 2011 5:54 am Post subject: Woodcomp after sales service

Hi Ferg,

     

     No, the prop was as received -assembled-  by woodcomp. No     modifications. 

     But you seem to miss the point Ferg, i am not complaining about     their history, or their family tree. I have serious complaints about     their inplantation of components not designed and not suitable for     the job being asked from them. 

     The result of that poor design caused my accident. 

     

     If then folks, who are protecting their investment over their     safety, are trying to convince others that business is as usual, i     get really upset. Lack of knowledge is forgiveable. Not accepting     facts or reducing their importance is not, especially if others are     possibly getting involved. 

     

     Regards,

     

     Jos

     

     

     

     27.6.2011 16:09, Fergus Kyle kirjoitti:     [quote]                     Woodcomp after sales service              

Jos,       

        I am             sorry for your accident and was careful to Google Earth your flight             path – amazed at your survival in             view of the circumstances. Naturally like most of us I can see why you would be             angry at the outcome.       

        Nevertheless,             because I ahve a Woodcomp (as yet untested) I am interested in any and             all discussions regarding it. I researched the company and             am aware of its foundation in a healthy (if socialist) industry – at which they were fairly             productive.             Content with their family tree, I consulted a number of             buyers, all of whom appeared content with the firm. I then visited Woodcomp north             of Prague             and was satisfied with the plant and its resources – modern, clean and efficient – four hours.       

        In the             process of installation, I managed to snap off one of the             sintered brushes which transfer the energy to the rotating prop – and sent off a request for a             replacement. It             was not a design fault – I just had little room to             manoeuvre in my spare bedroom and whacked it in passing. Jiri Holoubek didn’t reply, so I sent a chaser.             Apparently he was away and when he returned, I got an email requesting             clarification. On receipt of my reply, along came two             brushes in the mail – no charge.       

        I am a licensed amateur builder             but no             electronic expert as you are apparently, but I assembled the prop and             its controls without difficulty and ran the tests with no trouble.       

        The             faults you ascribe to the design were there when you             assembled it, yet we got no complaint then in spite of what appears             to an expert to be obvious failings. So my question is: Did you             modify the system at all prior to the accident?       

Regards, Ferg       

                	  Quote: 	
		  

	
     [b]

Ivor Phillips

Joined: 16 Jan 2006
Posts: 253
Location: London UK

Posted: Mon Jun 27, 2011 6:22 am Post subject: Woodcomp after Sales Service

Hi Guys  

Woodcomp SR3000 with reverse only  

  

Last year flying from Prestwick to Lydd in rain and very gusty conditions 

I had my SR3000 motor burn out which took my pitch to fully fine and on to the stops, 

It was very sudden and certainly got my attention, but unlike Jos I had been in the cruise 

120 kts and had time and speed to realise that I could keep the aircraft flying, 

  

Yes the Tachometer went into the red at first but as my airspeed dropped to 70 kts 

I could maintain height at 5500 rpm, I made a precautionary landing at headcorn, 

  

The complete Propeller was sent the my local Woodcomp agent, asking them to carefully 

Check the limit switches,  it turned out the switches and diodes were fine but the motor  

Had burnt out, this was subsequently changed, I had done 300 hours before this incident 

And assumed  because I always used auto when flying this had over worked the pitch motor, especially in gusty wind conditions, since my propeller return to service I make a point of flying it manually  if the conditions are poor,   

  

I have another 100 hours on the new motor and so far it is performing very well 

I also have the knowledge that a repeat of the problem would not mean an off airfield landing,  

  

Mark at Smart avionics couldn’t have been more helpful, while waiting for the new motor he heat soaked and bench tested my controller with not faults found,   

With a offer of a complete replacement unit if I wasn’t happy,  

  

My original controller is still working flawlessly and I have  a 100% confidence  

In its construction and software, 

  

Ivor 

G-IVER



 On 26 June 2011 15:02, Paul McAllister <paul.the.aviator(at)gmail.com (paul.the.aviator(at)gmail.com)> wrote:

 [quote]Hi All,



I was very impressed with the results that David Joyce got with his SR 3000W propeller from Woodcomp.  I would like to some feedback from the forum about there after sales experience from Woodcomp.  Please give me the 'good, the bad and the ugly'

 

Thanks,  Paul

  

 	  Quote: 	
		  



arget="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List

ttp://forums.matronics.com

_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution



	
[b]

Ivor Phillips

Joined: 16 Jan 2006
Posts: 253
Location: London UK

Posted: Mon Jun 27, 2011 6:33 am Post subject: Woodcomp after Sales Service

Amend the the first sentence to read

     

 Woodcomp SR3000  with feather only,

 fast finger freddie to blame [img]cid:ntlworld_com.330(at)goomoji.gmail[/img]

  

 regards

 Ivor

 G-IVER

 

 On 27 June 2011 15:19, PHILLIPS I <ivor.phillips(at)ntlworld.com (ivor.phillips(at)ntlworld.com)> wrote:

  	  Quote: 	
		   

Hi Guys  

Woodcomp SR3000 with reverse only 

  

Last year flying from Prestwick to Lydd in rain and very gusty conditions 

I had my SR3000 motor burn out which took my pitch to fully fine and on to the stops, 

It was very sudden and certainly got my attention, but unlike Jos I had been in the cruise 

120 kts and had time and speed to realise that I could keep the aircraft flying, 

  

Yes the Tachometer went into the red at first but as my airspeed dropped to 70 kts 

I could maintain height at 5500 rpm, I made a precautionary landing at headcorn, 

  

The complete Propeller was sent the my local Woodcomp agent, asking them to carefully 

Check the limit switches,  it turned out the switches and diodes were fine but the motor  

Had burnt out, this was subsequently changed, I had done 300 hours before this incident 

And assumed  because I always used auto when flying this had over worked the pitch motor, especially in gusty wind conditions, since my propeller return to service I make a point of flying it manually  if the conditions are poor,   

  

I have another 100 hours on the new motor and so far it is performing very well 

I also have the knowledge that a repeat of the problem would not mean an off airfield landing,  

  

Mark at Smart avionics couldn’t have been more helpful, while waiting for the new motor he heat soaked and bench tested my controller with not faults found,   

With a offer of a complete replacement unit if I wasn’t happy,  

  

My original controller is still working flawlessly and I have  a 100% confidence 

In its construction and software, 

  

Ivor 

G-IVER  

 



 On 26 June 2011 15:02, Paul McAllister <paul.the.aviator(at)gmail.com (paul.the.aviator(at)gmail.com)> wrote:

  	  Quote: 	
		  Hi All,



I was very impressed with the results that David Joyce got with his SR 3000W propeller from Woodcomp.  I would like to some feedback from the forum about there after sales experience from Woodcomp.  Please give me the 'good, the bad and the ugly'

 

Thanks,  Paul

  

 	  Quote: 	
		  



arget="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List

ttp://forums.matronics.com

_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution

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