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cjpilot710(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Mon Jul 11, 2011 12:13 pm Post subject: Duxford Mid-Air

Suzy Bass up at Deland or Kay Larken is the one I go to.

  

 I think Hoots right, dash 2 went to tight and looked like he pulled a lot  harder than Lead.  He obviously didn't have him in sight.  I  personally stay away from nonstandard pitch outs.  Boring I know, but  unless you practice with the guys its really foolish to try with  strangers.  All those guys are high timers, but airplanes fly differently  and the performance includes turning diameters as well as speed.  A 2  G pull in one airplane will not be the same as a 2 G pull in  another. 

  

 Does anyone want to debate the parachute rules?

  

 Pappy

  

  In a message dated 7/11/2011 3:13:56 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,  dblahnick(at)gmail.com writes:

  	  Quote: 	
		  Excellent video lesson for    folks to see (RPA should post this for their membership), also a good example    of having a parachute you can trust!    



   Thanks Hank.     My CJ is heading to New S. Beach for a new compressor install...anyone    know where I can get a chute repacked up there in Daytona area?

   



   Drew



   On Mon, Jul 11, 2011 at 2:44 PM, Hank Gibson <hkgibby(at)yahoo.com (hkgibby(at)yahoo.com)> wrote:

    	  Quote: 	
		                 Red Stars-

     



     Tough loss of a P-51 in Duxford at the annual Flying Legends      airshow.  Looks to me like dash 2 (the Skyraider) lost sight of his      lead.  Contributing factors;  minimal break interval, no pause      before the roll and the lead not pulling hard enough; maybe looking for      interval, but definitely fault of the Skyraider from what I see.  As we      always say, the key is to brief it up!!  Lucky nobody hurt!  Check      it out: 

     



http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-cambridgeshire-14101641       



     Hoot

      

     Hank Gibson

[url=tel:904-738-3240]904-738-3240[/url] Mobile

[url=tel:904-213-1760]904-213-1760[/url]      Home

hkgibby(at)yahoo.com (hkgibby(at)yahoo.com)

hkgibson(at)fnf.com (hkgibson(at)fnf.com)

      

	


-- 

Strive for one knee down in life, but never two!    (ancient racing proverb I probably    just made up)

   



   



	


  [quote][b]

Harv

Joined: 01 Jul 2010
Posts: 172

Posted: Mon Jul 11, 2011 1:23 pm Post subject: Re: Duxford Mid-Air

Hi

Unfortunately we got to see this 1st hand yesterday



The Skyraider broke too soon and collected the P51 on the climb/roll. The problem seemed to be timing and I would imagine the Sky raider has alot more forward inertia and caught up with the 51 during the turn.



The Mustang pilot bailed out at about 900ft AGL and the chute was fully deployed almost instantly (which was a surprise) and he was on the ground in under 10 secs. Makes you wonder about getting out at lower height if its needed....



I'd sure like to know what make the parachute was... 

Rgs 

Harv

byronmfox(at)gmail.com
Guest

Posted: Mon Jul 11, 2011 1:49 pm Post subject: Duxford Mid-Air

While we routinely break from an echelon formation, it appears that these folks were breaking from a vic with lead breaking over #2 followed by #3. Am I correct? Is this common practice in the UK?



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T_A4xdGFXoE

 



On Mon, Jul 11, 2011 at 2:23 PM, Harv <martin.harvey(at)kbr.com (martin.harvey(at)kbr.com)> wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   --> Yak-List message posted by: "Harv" <martin.harvey(at)kbr.com (martin.harvey(at)kbr.com)>

 

 Hi

 Unfortunately we got to see this 1st hand yesterday

 

 The Skyraider broke too soon and collected the P51 on the climb/roll. The problem seemed to be timing and I would imagine the Sky raider has alot more forward inertia and caught up with the 51 during the turn.

 

 The Mustang pilot bailed out at about 900ft AGL and the chute was fully deployed almost instantly (which was a surprise) and he was on the ground in under 10 secs. Makes you wonder about getting out at lower height if its needed....

  

 I'd sure like to know what make the parachute was...

 

 

 Rgs

 Harv

 

 

 

 

 Read this topic online here:

 

 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=345956#345956

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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 rget="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Yak-List

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 http://forums.matronics.com

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 le, List Admin.

 ="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution

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... Blitz

Byron M. Fox

80 Milland Drive

Mill Valley, CA 94941

415-307-2405



  

  [quote][b]

brian(at)lloyd.com
Guest

Posted: Mon Jul 11, 2011 2:40 pm Post subject: Duxford Mid-Air

On Mon, Jul 11, 2011 at 2:04 PM, Drew Blahnick <dblahnick(at)gmail.com (dblahnick(at)gmail.com)> wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		    	  Quote: 	
		  

A 2  G pull in one airplane will not be the same as a 2 G pull in  another. 



	


	




A 2G pull is the *SAME* for two airplanes going the same speed and will result in the same-size turn. The only difference is if one bleeds energy significantly faster in the pull than the other one does, but then your airspeeds are not the same anymore.

 

-- 

Brian Lloyd, WB6RQN/J79BPL

3191 Western Dr.

Cameron Park, CA 95682

brian(at)lloyd.com (brian(at)lloyd.com)

+1.767.617.1365 (Dominica)

+1.916.877.5067 (USA)

 

  [quote][b]

cjpilot710(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Mon Jul 11, 2011 4:10 pm Post subject: Duxford Mid-Air

My point exactly.  It is only same for seconds at most.  The Co of lift and drag, is different on each (51vsAD) airplane.  They may have the same speed and G load at the brake, but that changes almost instantly when those parameters kick in.  Both airplanes may be pulling 2gs but one of them is going to have a different radius of turn as soon as the angle of attack changes, and the drag effect the speed.  What didnâ€™t help was the over bank angle of the AD.  That put him inside the turn instantly.  That he landed the airplane minus what looks like a third of the right wing missing, says a lot for the design.  AAMOF, I know of an AD that lost HALF of its right wing in VN.  The pilot bailed because the engine quit! (Randy Webb in CT will verify that one).  And did you notice that right snap roll the AD did?  That he recovered is just plain beautiful!  I donâ€™t know what was damaged on the 51.  It looked like he got its elevators and rudder.  Well all airplanes need those - right?  I donâ€™t think a 51 could have lost as much wing as the AD and still recovered as well.  Anyway guys there are plenty of lessons to learn here.

    

   Jim "Pappy" Goolsby

   P.S.  I bet someone was happy, he was wearing a chute.

   

 

   

 

 --

f4ffm2(at)roadrunner.com
Guest

Posted: Mon Jul 11, 2011 5:52 pm Post subject: Duxford Mid-Air

Hello Yak Listers,

     Below is an email I sent to some other friends earlier today with the facts that I know about the accident....beyond what one can see on the videos and photos.

     It's good that Davies survived with only minor injuries.  It's too bad that this 51 was lost.  However, the loss of the airframe is not that big of a deal.  Brand new Mustangs can be (are being) made these days from scratch......except for the real tragedy of the day...which is the destruction of the Merlin engine.  There is only a very limited supply of them....and there aren't likely to be any more manufactured.  The art of making large, exact, complicated castings has essentially disappeared.  It was an art, not a science or technology developed for industrial production.  It came out of the mostly jewish metal working artisans of the middle ages who developed techniques for large castings initially for casting large religious statues.  The descendents of those early artisans developed the techniques that led to industrial uses....but they are all likely dead.  Any survivors from the Merlin era (either R-R or Packard) casting lines would be at least 85 years old and mostly older....or have shuffled off this mortal coil.

     Besides, who would front 10 or 20 or 50 million dollars to recreate the technology???  The resultant engines themselves would be multi-million dollar contraptions.

     Sorry, I've done it again....gotten all wordy rambling about things that damn few are interested in.  Oops.  I hope the photos come through.  I've never been very sure how photos work on the list. 

Roger____________________________________________________________________________________________ 





Hi Andrew and all,



The AD was a French registered airplane F-AZDP.  The Mustang was German registered D-FBBD which I think had only recently come off the British registry (off the US registry around 2005 or 6).  It was being flown by a guy named Ron Davies.  The #3 airplane in that formation was another Mustang being flown by Dan Freidkin (Tommy Freidkin's son) and Ed Shipley was in another three ship right behind the ill fated vic. 



Here's an interesting picture that shows that D-FBBD's  lower longerons appear to be broken, possibly along with the elevator controls, etc. Really quick thinking (and action) on the part of Davies (just shows the validity of having made up ones mind in advance about leaving an airplane in distress...this is all happening about 800' agl...the canopy left the airplane 7 seconds after the collision: 



[img]cid:62F8E160-9C4C-4672-BAA2-FBC1FBE0EC0E(at)san.rr.com[/img]



Here's another picture that is of 2 of the 3 airplanes in the vic just before the break:



[img]cid:8D57501F-BDF7-4293-84B1-FDAF27550619(at)san.rr.com[/img]



Back in the late 1960's, I was involved with this 51 when it was registered as N6565U.  It has lead a hard life since then; wrecked a couple of times and rebuilt using large parts of other airplanes.  In fact, I think that at the time of the collision, it was composed mostly of major components of CAC built Mustang A68-192 (for some reason that serial number comes to mind as the source airplane) but still on a NAA data plate.  Below is a photo from the MustangsMustangs.com web site from the days that I knew the airplane.



[img]cid:DD936902-9A74-43A6-A5C0-17DBB7AE77A8(at)san.rr.com[/img]



And here's one showing just how close it was for Ron Davies.  Parachutes are very good things.



[img]cid:DF24D3FB-3B18-4E63-8FA9-C24D05D691F8(at)san.rr.com[/img]

Best regards,



Roger Baker_________________________________________________________



On Jul 11, 2011, at 5:06 PM, cjpilot710(at)aol.com (cjpilot710(at)aol.com) wrote:

[quote]  My point exactly.  It is only same for seconds at most.  The Co of lift and drag, is different on each (51vsAD) airplane.  They may have the same speed and G load at the brake, but that changes almost instantly when those parameters kick in.  Both airplanes may be pulling 2gs but one of them is going to have a different radius of turn as soon as the angle of attack changes, and the drag effect the speed.  What didn’t help was the over bank angle of the AD.  That put him inside the turn instantly.  That he landed the airplane minus what looks like a third of the right wing missing, says a lot for the design.  AAMOF, I know of an AD that lost HALF of its right wing in VN.  The pilot bailed because the engine quit! (Randy Webb in CT will verify that one).  And did you notice that right snap roll the AD did?  That he recovered is just plain beautiful!  I don’t know what was damaged on the 51.  It looked like he got its elevators and rudder.  Well all airplanes need those - right?  I don’t think a 51 could have lost as much wing as the AD and still recovered as well.  Anyway guys there are plenty of lessons to learn here.

    

   Jim "Pappy" Goolsby

   P.S.  I bet someone was happy, he was wearing a chute.

   

 

   

 

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William Halverson

Joined: 27 Feb 2010
Posts: 88

Posted: Mon Jul 11, 2011 6:22 pm Post subject: Duxford Mid-Air

Huh ... the pics show all the parts are still on the Mustang ...



--

brian(at)lloyd.com
Guest

Posted: Mon Jul 11, 2011 6:40 pm Post subject: Duxford Mid-Air

On Mon, Jul 11, 2011 at 5:06 PM, <cjpilot710(at)aol.com> wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   My point exactly.  It is only same for seconds at most.  The Co of lift

 and drag, is different on each (51vsAD) airplane.




	


That is absolutely true and it has absolutely no effect on the radius of

turn.

 	  Quote: 	
		   They may have the same speed and G load at the brake, but that changes

 almost instantly when those parameters kick in.  Both airplanes may be

 pulling 2gs but one of them is going to have a different radius of turn as

 soon as the angle of attack changes, and the drag effect the speed.




	


Just so that people don't get confused, radius of turn is dependent on just

two things: G-load and TAS. AoA and mass/inertia have nothing to do with it

f4ffm2(at)roadrunner.com
Guest

Posted: Mon Jul 11, 2011 6:44 pm Post subject: Duxford Mid-Air

I guess I don't understand your comment.  Sorry.



Roger_________________________________________

On Jul 11, 2011, at 7:19 PM, William Halverson wrote:



[quote] 

 

 

 Huh ... the pics show all the parts are still on the Mustang ...

 

 

 

 --

cd001633(at)mindspring.co
Guest

Posted: Mon Jul 11, 2011 7:40 pm Post subject: Duxford Mid-Air

William,

If you look closely at the pics Roger attached earlier, particularly the one

showing the pilot "floating" away - you should be able to see the damage to

the bottom aft of the P-51 fuselage - the damage looks like a small "bite"

out of the bottom just forward of the horizontal stab.  This "Bite" most

likely damaged the elevator control...  



I am sure all available video that has and will surface will be(should be)

used for training purposed for a long time to come.



I am with Pappy Goolsby! - Love Your Chute!!!  You might need it to love you

back one day... 



Sam Sax

Miami



--

Harv

Joined: 01 Jul 2010
Posts: 172

Posted: Mon Jul 11, 2011 11:08 pm Post subject: Re: Duxford Mid-Air

Chaps



This is about the clearest video to come up thus far.



http://www.flyingfilm.co.uk/



Glad they all got out, thats the main thing.

Rgs



Harv

f4ffm2(at)roadrunner.com
Guest

Posted: Tue Jul 12, 2011 6:53 am Post subject: Duxford Mid-Air

"Egads!  It appears that I have erred"....as they say at the Ivy League schools.  "Damn, I've really screwed up" as we used to say at Eastern New Mexico U.



In the email I sent yesterday about the mid-air collision between the 51 and the AD at Duxford....most of what I said was more or less accurate.  BUT, my history on the subject 51 was pretty much totally torqued up.  

What got my coffee addled brain heading down the wrong path was, I think, the fact that both airplanes were well known and both were nicely painted in WWII colors as "Big Beautiful Doll".

Somehow, in my mind I ended up combining parts of the history of two Mustangs...to yield a whole that was messed up.  The airplane that I mentioned as one I'd been involved with back in the 60's (N6165U) is part of a very convoluted history....but the airplane it became (now known as N351BD s/n 44-63634) is still in the USA and still painted as "Big Beautiful Doll".  It has had a tough life and there is some doubt as to its true s/n....plus, it has been repaired after some serious damage using components from donor airplanes (including, as I remember, some stuff from a CAC built airplane).  It is now a very nice airplane which I've enjoyed seeing here and there for several years.

The 51 that was involved in Saturdays collision was indeed a CAC airplane CA-18 MK 22, A68-192, with a relatively "clean" history.  It was involved in an accident in the Phillipines back in the 1970s and repaired using components from a NAA built airplane.  But, otherwise, pretty much a verifiable history.  It lived in Hong Kong for a couple of years in the 80's and went to the UK in 1985, where it remained until this year and its move to German ownership. 

Sorry to have passed along my scrambled history.  I wrote the email yesterday just as I remembered it...without checking my facts.  Now that I've done that.....well, this is pretty much the accurate story.

Roger__________________________________________________

On Jul 11, 2011, at 6:49 PM, Roger Baker wrote:

[quote]Hello Yak Listers,

     Below is an email I sent to some other friends earlier today with the facts that I know about the accident....beyond what one can see on the videos and photos.

     It's good that Davies survived with only minor injuries.  It's too bad that this 51 was lost.  However, the loss of the airframe is not that big of a deal.  Brand new Mustangs can be (are being) made these days from scratch......except for the real tragedy of the day...which is the destruction of the Merlin engine.  There is only a very limited supply of them....and there aren't likely to be any more manufactured.  The art of making large, exact, complicated castings has essentially disappeared.  It was an art, not a science or technology developed for industrial production.  It came out of the mostly jewish metal working artisans of the middle ages who developed techniques for large castings initially for casting large religious statues.  The descendents of those early artisans developed the techniques that led to industrial uses....but they are all likely dead.  Any survivors from the Merlin era (either R-R or Packard) casting lines would be at least 85 years old and mostly older....or have shuffled off this mortal coil.

     Besides, who would front 10 or 20 or 50 million dollars to recreate the technology???  The resultant engines themselves would be multi-million dollar contraptions.

     Sorry, I've done it again....gotten all wordy rambling about things that damn few are interested in.  Oops.  I hope the photos come through.  I've never been very sure how photos work on the list. 

Roger____________________________________________________________________________________________ 





Hi Andrew and all,



The AD was a French registered airplane F-AZDP.  The Mustang was German registered D-FBBD which I think had only recently come off the British registry (off the US registry around 2005 or 6).  It was being flown by a guy named Ron Davies.  The #3 airplane in that formation was another Mustang being flown by Dan Freidkin (Tommy Freidkin's son) and Ed Shipley was in another three ship right behind the ill fated vic. 



Here's an interesting picture that shows that D-FBBD's  lower longerons appear to be broken, possibly along with the elevator controls, etc. Really quick thinking (and action) on the part of Davies (just shows the validity of having made up ones mind in advance about leaving an airplane in distress...this is all happening about 800' agl...the canopy left the airplane 7 seconds after the collision: 



<post-8022-1310368013.jpg>



Here's another picture that is of 2 of the 3 airplanes in the vic just before the break:



<ba9fb01f3f3d5557a1dde6bb0cd30641.jpg>



Back in the late 1960's, I was involved with this 51 when it was registered as N6565U.  It has lead a hard life since then; wrecked a couple of times and rebuilt using large parts of other airplanes.  In fact, I think that at the time of the collision, it was composed mostly of major components of CAC built Mustang A68-192 (for some reason that serial number comes to mind as the source airplane) but still on a NAA data plate.  Below is a photo from the MustangsMustangs.com web site from the days that I knew the airplane.



<44-63634_00810_rb2.jpg>



And here's one showing just how close it was for Ron Davies.  Parachutes are very good things.



<2duxfordcrash.jpg>

Best regards,



Roger Baker_________________________________________________________

[b]

yakplt(at)yahoo.com
Guest

Posted: Tue Jul 12, 2011 7:06 am Post subject: Duxford Mid-Air

Sorry Drew,  Have to weigh in on this one.  

  

 What the official interpretation is:  "If one person is wearing a parachute, in an aircraft, then everyone must wear a parachute in that aircraft."  Hence why I am required to wear a chute when dropping sky-divers.  If you are not carrying passengers, you are not required to wear a chute.   

  

 "c) Unless each occupant of the aircraft is wearing an approved parachute, no pilot of a civil aircraft carrying any person (other than a crewmember) may execute any intentional maneuver   etc., etc. "

  

 Please note the statement "OTHER THAN A CREWMEMBER".  

  

 I am not going to debate what defines a "crewmember", but if you are flying as the lone occupant of an aircraft, you are not required to wear a chute while performing aerobatics.  

  

 No, I am not going to debate the wisdom (or lack there-of) of not wearing a chute, I am saying that if you are the Pilot and no one else is in the aircraft, a chute is not required to perform aerbatics, much like a Flight Suit is not required to fly formation.  

  

 This topic has been debated in the past on the YAK List for weeks on end (see the archives).  Some folks just seem determined to bring it up over and over again to try to make a point about what they think is right versus what is legal and what is not.  Nothing wrong with personal opinions until someone trys to infer that their personal opinion is the law and everyone must comply with it.  See Achives on Tailslides.  

  

 My suggestion is that if you really want to know what is legal and what is not the reader should contact their local authorities and not base decisions on what is read on the YAK LIST.  In the U.S. contact, the EAA, the AOPA, your Aviation Lawyer, and the FAA.  

  

  

  

  

 

--- On Tue, 7/12/11, Drew Blahnick <dblahnick(at)gmail.com> wrote:



  	  Quote: 	
		  

From: Drew Blahnick <dblahnick(at)gmail.com>

Subject: Re: Duxford Mid-Air

To: "Michael Foster" <michaelfoster(at)bellsouth.net>

Date: Tuesday, July 12, 2011, 12:18 AM



  You nailed it Pod, and under the rules, the occupant/passenger falls under the FAAs historical mandate to protect the public from...what else, pilots  

 



  

(c) Unless each occupant of the aircraft is wearing an approved parachute, no pilot of a civil aircraft carrying any person (other than a crewmember) may execute any intentional maneuver that exceeds-

 

(1) A bank of 60 degrees relative to the horizon; or

 

(2) A nose-up or nose-down attitude of 30 degrees relative to the horizon.

 

 

Drew

 

______________________________________

 Strive for one knee down in life, but never two.

 (1000 Year Old Road Racing Proverb That I Just Made Up)



 

On Jul 11, 2011, at 8:23 PM, Michael Foster <michaelfoster(at)bellsouth.net (michaelfoster(at)bellsouth.net)> wrote:

 

  	  Quote: 	
		     Drew, 

 As far as parachutes and FAR - look at 91.307. It says you need an approved parachute- repacked within 180 days- by a certified rigger (is one at HEG $40/ chute that I use) Need chute for intentional maneuvers exceeding 60 deg AOB, nose up/ down 30deg from horizon. This is more specific than general aerobatic flt definition. 

  

 91.303 talks about aerobatic flight- in certian airspace- not within 4 miles of an airway- above 1500ft- need 3 mi vis. Also defines it as "an intentional maneuver involving an abrupt change in an aircraft's attitude, an abnormal attitude or abnormal acceleration not necessary for normal flight. No mention of  specific pitch and bank limits.

  

 Pod

  

  

 

   From: Drew Blahnick <dblahnick(at)gmail.com (dblahnick(at)gmail.com)>

To: "cjpilot710(at)aol.com (cjpilot710(at)aol.com)" <cjpilot710(at)aol.com (cjpilot710(at)aol.com)>

Cc: "hkgibby(at)yahoo.com (hkgibby(at)yahoo.com)" <hkgibby(at)yahoo.com (hkgibby(at)yahoo.com)>; "yak-list(at)matronics.com (yak-list(at)matronics.com)" <yak-list(at)matronics.com (yak-list(at)matronics.com)>; "aragheb(at)aol.com (aragheb(at)aol.com)" <aragheb(at)aol.com (aragheb(at)aol.com)>; "billandkim(at)wedeliverwellness.com (billandkim(at)wedeliverwellness.com)" <billandkim(at)wedeliverwellness.com (billandkim(at)wedeliverwellness.com)>; "michaelfoster(at)bellsouth.net (michaelfoster(at)bellsouth.net)" <michaelfoster(at)bellsouth.net (michaelfoster(at)bellsouth.net)>; "johnford915(at)ymail.com (johnford915(at)ymail.com)" <johnford915(at)ymail.com (johnford915(at)ymail.com)>; "boswell.bruce(at)gmail.com (boswell.bruce(at)gmail.com)" <boswell.bruce(at)gmail.com (boswell.bruce(at)gmail.com)>; "rlanger2(at)comcast.net (rlanger2(at)comcast.net)" <rlanger2(at)comcast.net (rlanger2(at)comcast.net)>; "rhino11(at)me.com (rhino11(at)me.com)" <rhino11(at)me.com (rhino11(at)me.com)>; "capav8r(at)gmail.com (capav8r(at)gmail.com)" <capav8r(at)gmail.com (capav8r(at)gmail.com)>; "yakski(at)earthlink.net (yakski(at)earthlink.net)" <yakski(at)earthlink.net (yakski(at)earthlink.net)>

Sent: Mon, July 11, 2011 5:04:01 PM

Subject: Re: Duxford Mid-Air



 Whats the rules Pappy (faa)?  Is it still reg just to provide passengers with an inspected chute if were doing aerobatics? as long as im legal with the suits from the fsdo...

 



 



Sent from my iPhone

 

On Jul 11, 2011, at 4:10 PM, cjpilot710(at)aol.com (cjpilot710(at)aol.com) wrote:

 

  	  Quote: 	
		    Suzy Bass up at Deland or Kay Larken is the one I go to.

  

 I think Hoots right, dash 2 went to tight and looked like he pulled a lot harder than Lead.  He obviously didn't have him in sight.  I personally stay away from nonstandard pitch outs.  Boring I know, but unless you practice with the guys its really foolish to try with strangers.  All those guys are high timers, but airplanes fly differently and the performance includes turning diameters as well as speed.  A 2 G pull in one airplane will not be the same as a 2 G pull in another. 

  

 Does anyone want to debate the parachute rules?

  

 Pappy

  

  In a message dated 7/11/2011 3:13:56 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, dblahnick(at)gmail.com (dblahnick(at)gmail.com) writes:

  	  Quote: 	
		  Excellent video lesson for folks to see (RPA should post this for their membership), also a good example of having a parachute you can trust!  



 Thanks Hank.  My CJ is heading to New S. Beach for a new compressor install...anyone know where I can get a chute repacked up there in Daytona area?

 



 Drew



 On Mon, Jul 11, 2011 at 2:44 PM, Hank Gibson < (hkgibby(at)yahoo.com)hkgibby(at)yahoo.com (hkgibby(at)yahoo.com)> wrote:

  	  Quote: 	
		     Red Stars-

 



 Tough loss of a P-51 in Duxford at the annual Flying Legends airshow.  Looks to me like dash 2 (the Skyraider) lost sight of his lead.  Contributing factors;  minimal break interval, no pause before the roll and the lead not pulling hard enough; maybe looking for interval, but definitely fault of the Skyraider from what I see.  As we always say, the key is to brief it up!!  Lucky nobody hurt!  Check it out: 

 



http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-cambridgeshire-14101641  



 Hoot

  

 Hank Gibson

904-738-3240 Mobile

904-213-1760 Home

hkgibby(at)yahoo.com (hkgibby(at)yahoo.com)

hkgibson(at)fnf.com (hkgibson(at)fnf.com)

  

	


-- 

Strive for one knee down in life, but never two!  (ancient racing proverb I probably just made up)

 



 



	




	








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 [quote][b]

Etienne Verhellen

Joined: 13 Apr 2007
Posts: 141
Location: Belgium

Posted: Tue Jul 12, 2011 7:12 am Post subject: Re: Duxford Mid-Air

A very very important reminder of the single MOST IMPORTANT rule of formation flying :



NEVER LOSE SIGHT OF THE LEAD AIRCRAFT.



http://www.flyingfilm.co.uk/

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2013219/Pilot-Rob-Davies-escapes-WW2-fighter-mid-air-collision-airshow.html

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markdavis(at)wbsnet.org
Guest

Posted: Tue Jul 12, 2011 8:04 am Post subject: Duxford Mid-Air

This accident illustrates the reason all U.S. military formations (with the 

exception of demonstration teams) routinely break out of an echelon.  In 

this case, it appears the Mustang pulled straight up for an extended period 

and disappeared at the AD's 6:00 high (unless he can twist his head 360 

degrees like Linda Blair in the Exorcist).  I know it's the wingman's 

responsibility to maintain sight of the lead, but if they lead maneuvers to 

a position that the wingman can't see him and then has to reaquire a visual, 

it's putting an unneccessary burden on the wingman to pick out his lead with 

another Mustang downwind out of the previous formation.  Maybe it's a 

standard recovery technique in the UK, but not across the pond.  This 

accident was probably wouldn't have happened if they had broken out of an 

echelon.  It's great that no one was hurt, but they were both LUCKY.



Mark Davis

N44YK



---

brian(at)lloyd.com
Guest

Posted: Tue Jul 12, 2011 8:19 am Post subject: Duxford Mid-Air

On Tue, Jul 12, 2011 at 12:08 AM, Harv <martin.harvey(at)kbr.com (martin.harvey(at)kbr.com)> wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   --> Yak-List message posted by: "Harv" <martin.harvey(at)kbr.com (martin.harvey(at)kbr.com)>

 

 Chaps

 

 This is about the clearest video to come up thus far.

 

 http://www.flyingfilm.co.uk/

 

 Glad they all got out, thats the main thing.

	




Huh. I'm sure we could analyze this to death but it reinforces the value of standard procedures and consistency. 



 -- 

Brian Lloyd, WB6RQN/J79BPL

3191 Western Dr.

Cameron Park, CA 95682

brian(at)lloyd.com (brian(at)lloyd.com)

+1.767.617.1365 (Dominica)

+1.916.877.5067 (USA)



  [quote][b]

brian(at)lloyd.com
Guest

Posted: Tue Jul 12, 2011 8:31 am Post subject: Duxford Mid-Air

On Tue, Jul 12, 2011 at 8:12 AM, Etienne Verhellen <janie(at)yak52.fr (janie(at)yak52.fr)> wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   --> Yak-List message posted by: "Etienne Verhellen" <janie(at)yak52.fr (janie(at)yak52.fr)>

 

 A very very important reminder of the single MOST IMPORTANT rule of formation flying :

 

 NEVER LOSE SIGHT OF THE LEAD AIRCRAFT.

	




Well, not completely true. During a break it is normal for lead to fly out-of-sight. Lead has reversed course prior to the other aircraft in the flight. Each subsequent aircraft at the front of the echelon is supposed to concentrate on maintaining heading, altitude, and airspeed until time to roll and pull, not looking at lead. Therefore it is normal and accepted that the aircraft in the flight will, for some short period of time, lose sight of each other. We expect that. What saves us in that case is the geometry of the maneuver. If everyone executes the maneuver the same way, at the same speed, with the same G-load, then it is impossible for the aircraft to have impinging vectors.

 



So, I would like to introduce a new platitude that supersedes most, if not all, of the platitudes that we bat around here:

"DO IT RIGHT."

For those of us who prefer more colorful platitudes I submit the following variation:

 



"DON'T FUCK UP."



-- 

Brian Lloyd, WB6RQN/J79BPL

3191 Western Dr.

Cameron Park, CA 95682

brian(at)lloyd.com (brian(at)lloyd.com)

 +1.767.617.1365 (Dominica)

+1.916.877.5067 (USA)



  [quote][b]

N767RG

Joined: 21 Dec 2010
Posts: 6

Posted: Tue Jul 12, 2011 1:42 pm Post subject: Duxford Mid-Air

---

viperdoc(at)mindspring.co
Guest

Posted: Tue Jul 12, 2011 7:00 pm Post subject: Duxford Mid-Air

Shack.

Doc

--

czech6(at)mesanetworks.ne
Guest

Posted: Tue Jul 12, 2011 8:12 pm Post subject: Duxford Mid-Air

Mark, 

Do u realize how much investigative work we all just saved the British Authorities?

Back to my arm chair for the next game.

The way I see this, God had them both under control. Maybe they just briefed it that way and it didn't work in the air like it did on the chalk board. 

Everybody is alive and bruised egos.

Moving on.



Bill



On Jul 12, 2011, at 11:02 AM, "Mark Davis" <markdavis(at)wbsnet.org> wrote:



[quote] 

 

 This accident illustrates the reason all U.S. military formations (with the exception of demonstration teams) routinely break out of an echelon.  In this case, it appears the Mustang pulled straight up for an extended period and disappeared at the AD's 6:00 high (unless he can twist his head 360 degrees like Linda Blair in the Exorcist).  I know it's the wingman's responsibility to maintain sight of the lead, but if they lead maneuvers to a position that the wingman can't see him and then has to reaquire a visual, it's putting an unneccessary burden on the wingman to pick out his lead with another Mustang downwind out of the previous formation.  Maybe it's a standard recovery technique in the UK, but not across the pond.  This accident was probably wouldn't have happened if they had broken out of an echelon.  It's great that no one was hurt, but they were both LUCKY.

 

 Mark Davis

 N44YK

 

 ---

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