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Lynn Matteson
Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 2778
Location: Grass Lake, Michigan
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 Posted: Mon Jul 18, 2011 9:11 am Post subject: Voltmeter advice needed |
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I guess the best...or worst...case is the round gauges that show
digital readouts, then have a ring of leds around the outer face that
light up according to where on that round face an analog pointer
might be pointing. I think this is an electrical engineer trying to
impress the buying public.
I recall that some race car drivers would use analog gauges, but
orient the gauge so that under normal conditions, the needle would be
straight up. This way a glance at the panel should reveal any needle
that was NOT straight up, and the driver could then concentrate on
that reading only.
When I was learning to fly in my Kitfox, I felt the need to nail the
2000 rpm mag check....1990 needed a bit more...oops, that's
2010....finally my instructor said "are we gonna fly or are you gonna
spend all day getting that rpm just right?"
In my case, I can see at a glance if all four of my (digital) EGT
readings are in the ballpark, but if I had analog, I'd be making a
larger scan of the four gauges. So for me, right now during my engine-
testing phase (when am I NOT testing something?), the digital
readings are more precise, and that's what I want. Later on, I might
be content to look at one analog gauge, and mark it with a green
band, just like certified planes.
And yes, all planes flying in this area had better be watching out
for me, 'cause my eyes are inside a lot!....NOT a good thing, when it
was as hazy as it was flying earlier. I'd hate to think about some
other dumbbell out there doing the same thing as me....and we've
already had 2, if not 3, experimentals crash this last 10 days or so.
As for the voltmeter, I just ordered a panel meter that measures less
than an 1" by 2", and mounts with a 7/32" hole through the panel. It
has 0.5" LCD display height. This is perfect for the job at hand, and
I can mount it where I can see it and the MAP pressure in one glance.
Lynn Matteson
Kitfox IV Speedster, taildragger
Jabiru 2200, #2062
Prince prop 64 x 30, P-tip
Electroair direct-fire ignition system
Rotec TBI-40 injection (sleeved to 36mm)
Status: flying with "Ramcharger" intake manifold...1141 hrs (since
3-27-2006)
On Jul 18, 2011, at 9:28 AM, FLYaDIVE wrote:
| Quote: | You are RIGHT Lynn:
We put a man on the moon with analog gauges and NOW we fixate on
digital... For my $2.00 ... Have you ever flown with someone that
has a DIGITAL TACH?
Watch their EYES - How Long it takes them to set a RPM.
How fixated they are on getting the RPM right ON!
How Long there eyes are INSIDE the cockpit rather than LQQKing
OUTSIDE.
Oil Temps are the SAME ISSUE... On climb-out ask them what is
their oil Temp? And again watch their eyes... and Lissen to what
they report.
186.7 F instead of IN THE GREEN or between 180 & 190 F
WAIT till they have an emergency situation and they once again
become fixated on THE NUMBERS!
It is like driving a car and talking on the cell phone. BOTH
operations require the same side of the brain and they compete with
each other.
Same is true of DIGITAL Vs ANALOG. The DIGITAL requires you to
THINK and REMEMBER numbers as apposed to GO/NO-GO... GREEN, YELLOW
& RED.
Ever since birth we are ANALOG and today they are saying babies
like Black & White and Round and Square.
Back to the K.I.S.S. M.E. Principal.
Barry
|
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_________________
Lynn
Kitfox IV-Jabiru 2200
N369LM |
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aerobiz1(at)gmail.com
Guest
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| Posted: Mon Jul 18, 2011 12:25 pm Post subject: Voltmeter advice needed |
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I think we need to differentiate between digital technology and digital display. To me, a digital display is showing numbers. Next to useless on a tacho. However, a display of say, CHT's in a bar graph format makes a lot of sense. You can tell by the height of each bar what the temp might be, and readily compare them.
Horses for courses
Martin
On Tue, Jul 19, 2011 at 2:48 AM, Lynn Matteson <lynnmatt(at)jps.net (lynnmatt(at)jps.net)> wrote:
[quote]--> JabiruEngine-List message posted by: Lynn Matteson <lynnmatt(at)jps.net (lynnmatt(at)jps.net)>
I guess the best...or worst...case is the round gauges that show digital readouts, then have a ring of leds around the outer face that light up according to where on that round face an analog pointer might be pointing. I think this is an electrical engineer trying to impress the buying public.
I recall that some race car drivers would use analog gauges, but orient the gauge so that under normal conditions, the needle would be straight up. This way a glance at the panel should reveal any needle that was NOT straight up, and the driver could then concentrate on that reading only.
When I was learning to fly in my Kitfox, I felt the need to nail the 2000 rpm mag check....1990 needed a bit more...oops, that's 2010....finally my instructor said "are we gonna fly or are you gonna spend all day getting that rpm just right?"
In my case, I can see at a glance if all four of my (digital) EGT readings are in the ballpark, but if I had analog, I'd be making a larger scan of the four gauges. So for me, right now during my engine-testing phase (when am I NOT testing something?), the digital readings are more precise, and that's what I want. Later on, I might be content to look at one analog gauge, and mark it with a green band, just like certified planes.
And yes, all planes flying in this area had better be watching out for me, 'cause my eyes are inside a lot!....NOT a good thing, when it was as hazy as it was flying earlier. I'd hate to think about some other dumbbell out there doing the same thing as me....and we've already had 2, if not 3, experimentals crash this last 10 days or so.
As for the voltmeter, I just ordered a panel meter that measures less than an 1" by 2", and mounts with a 7/32" hole through the panel. It has 0.5" LCD display height. This is perfect for the job at hand, and I can mount it where I can see it and the MAP pressure in one glance.
Lynn Matteson
Kitfox IV Speedster, taildragger
Jabiru 2200, #2062
Prince prop 64 x 30, P-tip
Electroair direct-fire ignition system
Rotec TBI-40 injection (sleeved to 36mm)
Status: flying with "Ramcharger" intake manifold...1141 hrs (since 3-27-2006)
On Jul 18, 2011, at 9:28 AM, FLYaDIVE wrote:
| Quote: | You are RIGHT Lynn:
We put a man on the moon with analog gauges and NOW we fixate on digital... For my $2.00 ... Have you ever flown with someone that has a DIGITAL TACH?
Watch their EYES - How Long it takes them to set a RPM.
How fixated they are on getting the RPM right ON!
How Long there eyes are INSIDE the cockpit rather than LQQKing OUTSIDE.
Oil Temps are the SAME ISSUE... On climb-out ask them what is their oil Temp? And again watch their eyes... and Lissen to what they report.
186.7 F instead of IN THE GREEN or between 180 & 190 F
WAIT till they have an emergency situation and they once again become fixated on THE NUMBERS!
It is like driving a car and talking on the cell phone. BOTH operations require the same side of the brain and they compete with each other.
Same is true of DIGITAL Vs ANALOG. The DIGITAL requires you to THINK and REMEMBER numbers as apposed to GO/NO-GO... GREEN, YELLOW & RED.
Ever since birth we are ANALOG and today they are saying babies like Black & White and Round and Square.
Back to the K.I.S.S. M.E. Principal.
Barry
|
====================================
-
ine-List" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?JabiruEngine-List
====================================
MS -
k">http://forums.matronics.com
====================================
e -
-Matt Dralle, List Admin.
t="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
====================================
[b]
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pete(at)usjabiru.com
Guest
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| Posted: Mon Jul 18, 2011 1:21 pm Post subject: Voltmeter advice needed |
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I disagree strongly. Digital display tachometers are easy to read at a glance and return very accurate information. At a glance I can see (for example) that I’m getting 2830 rpm climbing out at 80 knots in our J230. If it were an analog display I’d see at a glance that I have a little over 2800 rpm – maybe 2850. Why not be precise at a glance? It takes more time to stare at a analog display to determine which small line the needle rests on that to take a quick glance at a digital display and see a precise number.
Same thing with engine instruments. I get calls all the time about EGT’s and the customer tells me he’s “in the green”. When I ask what temp his EGT’s really are he can’t be precise. Some callers don’t even know where the green starts and stops. To get a carb tuned correctly you need precise information to straddle that fine line between good economy and engine damage. “In the green” just doesn’t cut it.
Most of the better engine digital displays can show a trend line. At a glance I can tell if my CHT’s are rising or if they are falling. Nice to know at a glance that when you level off for cruise that temps begin falling after the climb but CRITICAL to know if they continue to rise. With an analog display you might discern the trend if you can remember the temp from when you looked last and can remember when that last look occurred. You might even get distracted from flying the plane while intently staring at the analog temp display to see if the needle moves.
In experimental aircraft where often cowl development may not be the highest priority and where R&D budgets do not exist a good monitor is essential to report what is going on in the engine compartment. The cost is less than comparable analog instruments and the capabilities are significantly above.
On Jul 18, 2011, at 9:28 AM, FLYaDIVE wrote:
You are RIGHT Lynn:
We put a man on the moon with analog gauges and NOW we fixate on digital... For my $2.00 ... Have you ever flown with someone that has a DIGITAL TACH?
Watch their EYES - How Long it takes them to set a RPM.
How fixated they are on getting the RPM right ON!
How Long there eyes are INSIDE the cockpit rather than LQQKing OUTSIDE.
Oil Temps are the SAME ISSUE... On climb-out ask them what is their oil Temp? And again watch their eyes... and Lissen to what they report.
186.7 F instead of IN THE GREEN or between 180 & 190 F
WAIT till they have an emergency situation and they once again become fixated on THE NUMBERS!
It is like driving a car and talking on the cell phone. BOTH operations require the same side of the brain and they compete with each other.
Same is true of DIGITAL Vs ANALOG. The DIGITAL requires you to THINK and REMEMBER numbers as apposed to GO/NO-GO... GREEN, YELLOW & RED.
Ever since birth we are ANALOG and today they are saying babies like Black & White and Round and Square.
Back to the K.I.S.S. M.E. Principal.
Barry
====================================
-
ine-List" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?JabiruEngine-List
====================================
MS -
k">http://forums.matronics.com
===========
e -
-Matt Dralle, List Admin.
t="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
====================================
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aerobiz1(at)gmail.com
Guest
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| Posted: Mon Jul 18, 2011 1:50 pm Post subject: Voltmeter advice needed |
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Peter,
I guess that it also depends on what you are most comfortable with. Digital
anything is supposed to be more reliable and accurate. For things that don't
move a lot, a digital display is easy to read. For me, digital tachs are a
PITA - I like to see at a glance if the needles are pointing the right
direction during critical phases of flight, without concentrating on what
the gauges are saying precisely. A number of digital instruments using bar
graphs or a ring of lights replicating where a needle would be pointing are
a good compromise. These days, we certainly are spoilt for choice and
information.
Also, I just wonder if your last line applies to Jabiru..... 
Cheers
Marty
On Tue, Jul 19, 2011 at 7:17 AM, Pete Krotje <pete(at)usjabiru.com> wrote:
[quote] I disagree strongly. Digital display tachometers are easy to read at a
glance and return very accurate information. At a glance I can see (for
example) that I’m getting 2830 rpm climbing out at 80 knots in our J230. If
it were an analog display I’d see at a glance that I have a little over 2800
rpm – maybe 2850. Why not be precise at a glance? It takes more time to
stare at a analog display to determine which small line the needle rests on
that to take a quick glance at a digital display and see a precise number
| | - The Matronics JabiruEngine-List Email Forum - | | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?JabiruEngine-List |
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pete(at)usjabiru.com
Guest
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| Posted: Mon Jul 18, 2011 2:43 pm Post subject: Voltmeter advice needed |
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Actually my last line applies to many kit and airframe makers other than Jabiru. Jabiru’s cowl design allows for excellent cooling in most all conditions. Example – we completed a new J230 last week and first flights happened on a day when OAT was 100 F at our airport. On the first climb to 3500 MSL from our 800 ft MSL runway top CHT temp was on cylinder 5 at 368 F. Well within the 392 F limit. Further flights produced only lower temps. Our new demo J230 with 12 hours on it produced a top temp of 323 F on the same day. In cruise at 3500 ft temps are all below 300 F when OAT at 3500 ft is 85 F.
We pay attention to our carb tuning and cylinder to cylinder CHT tuning by adjusting deflectors we put in the cooling ducts. We pay attention and make adjustments to cylinder to cylinder EGT’s We’ve got it down now mostly so that we don’t need to do much adjusting any more. Oil temps in cruise run 185 F on a hot day. Maybe that’s why on the 250 aircraft we’ve built in the last few years we don’t seem to have all these head problems, through bolt breakage and other issues that we hear about from many other places. Our digital instruments guide our customers in their engine operation so as to keep operation within parameters.
We have several flight school aircraft whos’ engines are coming up on the 1000 hour top overhaul before year’s end. We only hear from those owners when they need distributor caps and rotors or some other minor consumable parts. Compare that to a fight school in Australia that have had to replace engines four times in their fleet over the same accumulation of hours. Is it design or is it operation?
We do have engine problems with some kit and LSA aircraft where cowl design could use improvement. Probably 75% of all our engine problems come from two makes of aircraft. Cowl design needs improvement and the operating instructions could use more development as well.
Having sold nearly a third of all Jabiru engines over the last 12 years I think we’ve had some solid exposure to how they operate and gained solid knowledge on how to keep them healthy. Digital display instruments are critical to that endeavor.
Pete
From: owner-jabiruengine-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-jabiruengine-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Martin Hone
Sent: Monday, July 18, 2011 4:47 PM
To: jabiruengine-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: Re: Voltmeter advice needed
Peter,
I guess that it also depends on what you are most comfortable with. Digital anything is supposed to be more reliable and accurate. For things that don't move a lot, a digital display is easy to read. For me, digital tachs are a PITA - I like to see at a glance if the needles are pointing the right direction during critical phases of flight, without concentrating on what the gauges are saying precisely. A number of digital instruments using bar graphs or a ring of lights replicating where a needle would be pointing are a good compromise. These days, we certainly are spoilt for choice and information.
Also, I just wonder if your last line applies to Jabiru.....
Cheers
Marty
On Tue, Jul 19, 2011 at 7:17 AM, Pete Krotje <pete(at)usjabiru.com (pete(at)usjabiru.com)> wrote:
I disagree strongly. Digital display tachometers are easy to read at a glance and return very accurate information. At a glance I can see (for example) that I’m getting 2830 rpm climbing out at 80 knots in our J230. If it were an analog display I’d see at a glance that I have a little over 2800 rpm – maybe 2850. Why not be precise at a glance? It takes more time to stare at a analog display to determine which small line the needle rests on that to take a quick glance at a digital display and see a precise number.
Same thing with engine instruments. I get calls all the time about EGT’s and the customer tells me he’s “in the green”. When I ask what temp his EGT’s really are he can’t be precise. Some callers don’t even know where the green starts and stops. To get a carb tuned correctly you need precise information to straddle that fine line between good economy and engine damage. “In the green” just doesn’t cut it.
Most of the better engine digital displays can show a trend line. At a glance I can tell if my CHT’s are rising or if they are falling. Nice to know at a glance that when you level off for cruise that temps begin falling after the climb but CRITICAL to know if they continue to rise. With an analog display you might discern the trend if you can remember the temp from when you looked last and can remember when that last look occurred. You might even get distracted from flying the plane while intently staring at the analog temp display to see if the needle moves.
In experimental aircraft where often cowl development may not be the highest priority and where R&D budgets do not exist a good monitor is essential to report what is going on in the engine compartment. The cost is less than comparable analog instruments and the capabilities are significantly above.
On Jul 18, 2011, at 9:28 AM, FLYaDIVE wrote:
You are RIGHT Lynn:
We put a man on the moon with analog gauges and NOW we fixate on digital... For my $2.00 ... Have you ever flown with someone that has a DIGITAL TACH?
Watch their EYES - How Long it takes them to set a RPM.
How fixated they are on getting the RPM right ON!
How Long there eyes are INSIDE the cockpit rather than LQQKing OUTSIDE.
Oil Temps are the SAME ISSUE... On climb-out ask them what is their oil Temp? And again watch their eyes... and Lissen to what they report.
186.7 F instead of IN THE GREEN or between 180 & 190 F
WAIT till they have an emergency situation and they once again become fixated on THE NUMBERS!
It is like driving a car and talking on the cell phone. BOTH operations require the same side of the brain and they compete with each other.
Same is true of DIGITAL Vs ANALOG. The DIGITAL requires you to THINK and REMEMBER numbers as apposed to GO/NO-GO... GREEN, YELLOW & RED.
Ever since birth we are ANALOG and today they are saying babies like Black & White and Round and Square.
Back to the K.I.S.S. M.E. Principal.
Barry
===========
-
ine-List" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?JabiruEngine-List
===========
MS -
k">http://forums.matronics.com
===========
e -
-Matt Dralle, List Admin.
t="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
===========
01
234567890123456789
[quote][b]
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aerobiz1(at)gmail.com
Guest
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| Posted: Mon Jul 18, 2011 2:59 pm Post subject: Voltmeter advice needed |
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Thanks for those informed comments Peter. It is good to know that a proper
installation will have every chance of success, though in my experience even
a factory Jab installation will not guarantee it.. Maybe the factory should
add your procedures and operating instructions to the information file given
to new owners/builders.
Cheers
Martin
On Tue, Jul 19, 2011 at 8:40 AM, Pete Krotje <pete(at)usjabiru.com> wrote:
[quote] Actually my last line applies to many kit and airframe makers other than
Jabiru. Jabiru’s cowl design allows for excellent cooling in most all
conditions. Example – we completed a new J230 last week and first flights
happened on a day when OAT was 100 F at our airport. On the first climb to
3500 MSL from our 800 ft MSL runway top CHT temp was on cylinder 5 at 368
F. Well within the 392 F limit. Further flights produced only lower
temps. Our new demo J230 with 12 hours on it produced a top temp of 323 F
on the same day. In cruise at 3500 ft temps are all below 300 F when OAT at
3500 ft is 85 F.****
** **
We pay attention to our carb tuning and cylinder to cylinder CHT tuning by
adjusting deflectors we put in the cooling ducts. We pay attention and make
adjustments to cylinder to cylinder EGT’s We’ve got it down now mostly so
that we don’t need to do much adjusting any more. Oil temps in cruise run
185 F on a hot day. Maybe that’s why on the 250 aircraft we’ve built in the
last few years we don’t seem to have all these head problems, through bolt
breakage and other issues that we hear about from many other places. Our
digital instruments guide our customers in their engine operation so as to
keep operation within parameters.****
** **
We have several flight school aircraft whos’ engines are coming up on the
1000 hour top overhaul before year’s end. We only hear from those owners
when they need distributor caps and rotors or some other minor consumable
parts. Compare that to a fight school in Australia that have had to replace
engines four times in their fleet over the same accumulation of hours. Is
it design or is it operation?****
** **
We do have engine problems with some kit and LSA aircraft where cowl
design could use improvement. Probably 75% of all our engine problems come
from two makes of aircraft. Cowl design needs improvement and the operating
instructions could use more development as well. ****
** **
Having sold nearly a third of all Jabiru engines over the last 12 years I
think we’ve had some solid exposure to how they operate and gained solid
knowledge on how to keep them healthy. Digital display instruments are
critical to that endeavor.****
** **
Pete ****
** **
*From:* owner-jabiruengine-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:
owner-jabiruengine-list-server(at)matronics.com] *On Behalf Of *Martin Hone
*Sent:* Monday, July 18, 2011 4:47 PM
*To:* jabiruengine-list(at)matronics.com
*Subject:* Re: Voltmeter advice needed****
** **
Peter,****
** **
I guess that it also depends on what you are most comfortable with.
Digital anything is supposed to be more reliable and accurate. For things
that don't move a lot, a digital display is easy to read. For me, digital
tachs are a PITA - I like to see at a glance if the needles are pointing the
right direction during critical phases of flight, without concentrating on
what the gauges are saying precisely. A number of digital instruments using
bar graphs or a ring of lights replicating where a needle would be pointing
are a good compromise. These days, we certainly are spoilt for choice and
information.****
** **
Also, I just wonder if your last line applies to Jabiru..... ****
** **
Cheers****
** **
Marty****
On Tue, Jul 19, 2011 at 7:17 AM, Pete Krotje <pete(at)usjabiru.com> wrote:***
*
I disagree strongly. Digital display tachometers are easy to read at a
glance and return very accurate information. At a glance I can see (for
example) that I’m getting 2830 rpm climbing out at 80 knots in our J230. If
it were an analog display I’d see at a glance that I have a little over 2800
rpm – maybe 2850. Why not be precise at a glance? It takes more time to
stare at a analog display to determine which small line the needle rests on
that to take a quick glance at a digital display and see a precise number
| | - The Matronics JabiruEngine-List Email Forum - | | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?JabiruEngine-List |
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BobsV35B(at)aol.com
Guest
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| Posted: Mon Jul 18, 2011 3:56 pm Post subject: Voltmeter advice needed |
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Good Afternoon Pete,
I had a bit over sixty years of watching aircraft engines using only analog gauges and have only about five years using the new fangled digital ones.
I will take the digital over the analog any time! <G>
Happy Skies,
Old Bob
AKA
Bob Siegfried
Stearman N3977A
In a message dated 7/18/2011 5:43:34 P.M. Central Daylight Time, pete(at)usjabiru.com writes:
| Quote: |
Actually my last line applies to many kit and airframe makers other than Jabiru. Jabiru’s cowl design allows for excellent cooling in most all conditions. Example – we completed a new J230 last week and first flights happened on a day when OAT was 100 F at our airport. On the first climb to 3500 MSL from our 800 ft MSL runway top CHT temp was on cylinder 5 at 368 F. Well within the 392 F limit. Further flights produced only lower temps. Our new demo J230 with 12 hours on it produced a top temp of 323 F on the same day. In cruise at 3500 ft temps are all below 300 F when OAT at 3500 ft is 85 F.
We pay attention to our carb tuning and cylinder to cylinder CHT tuning by adjusting deflectors we put in the cooling ducts. We pay attention and make adjustments to cylinder to cylinder EGT’s We’ve got it down now mostly so that we don’t need to do much adjusting any more. Oil temps in cruise run 185 F on a hot day. Maybe that’s why on the 250 aircraft we’ve built in the last few years we don’t seem to have all these head problems, through bolt breakage and other issues that we hear about from many other places. Our digital instruments guide our customers in their engine operation so as to keep operation within parameters.
We have several flight school aircraft whos’ engines are coming up on the 1000 hour top overhaul before year’s end. We only hear from those owners when they need distributor caps and rotors or some other minor consumable parts. Compare that to a fight school in Australia that have had to replace engines four times in their fleet over the same accumulation of hours. Is it design or is it operation?
We do have engine problems with some kit and LSA aircraft where cowl design could use improvement. Probably 75% of all our engine problems come from two makes of aircraft. Cowl design needs improvement and the operating instructions could use more development as well.
Having sold nearly a third of all Jabiru engines over the last 12 years I think we’ve had some solid exposure to how they operate and gained solid knowledge on how to keep them healthy. Digital display instruments are critical to that endeavor.
Pete
From: owner-jabiruengine-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-jabiruengine-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Martin Hone
Sent: Monday, July 18, 2011 4:47 PM
To: jabiruengine-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: Re: JabiruEngine-List: Voltmeter advice needed
Peter,
I guess that it also depends on what you are most comfortable with. Digital anything is supposed to be more reliable and accurate. For things that don't move a lot, a digital display is easy to read. For me, digital tachs are a PITA - I like to see at a glance if the needles are pointing the right direction during critical phases of flight, without concentrating on what the gauges are saying precisely. A number of digital instruments using bar graphs or a ring of lights replicating where a needle would be pointing are a good compromise. These days, we certainly are spoilt for choice and information.
Also, I just wonder if your last line applies to Jabiru.....
Cheers
Marty
On Tue, Jul 19, 2011 at 7:17 AM, Pete Krotje <pete(at)usjabiru.com (pete(at)usjabiru.com)> wrote:
I disagree strongly. Digital display tachometers are easy to read at a glance and return very accurate information. At a glance I can see (for example) that I’m getting 2830 rpm climbing out at 80 knots in our J230. If it were an analog display I’d see at a glance that I have a little over 2800 rpm – maybe 2850. Why not be precise at a glance? It takes more time to stare at a analog display to determine which small line the needle rests on that to take a quick glance at a digital display and see a precise number.
Same thing with engine instruments. I get calls all the time about EGT’s and the customer tells me he’s “in the green”. When I ask what temp his EGT’s really are he can’t be precise. Some callers don’t even know where the green starts and stops. To get a carb tuned correctly you need precise information to straddle that fine line between good economy and engine damage. “In the green” just doesn’t cut it.
Most of the better engine digital displays can show a trend line. At a glance I can tell if my CHT’s are rising or if they are falling. Nice to know at a glance that when you level off for cruise that temps begin falling after the climb but CRITICAL to know if they continue to rise. With an analog display you might discern the trend if you can remember the temp from when you looked last and can remember when that last look occurred. You might even get distracted from flying the plane while intently staring at the analog temp display to see if the needle moves.
In experimental aircraft where often cowl development may not be the highest priority and where R&D budgets do not exist a good monitor is essential to report what is going on in the engine compartment. The cost is less than comparable analog instruments and the capabilities are significantly above.
On Jul 18, 2011, at 9:28 AM, FLYaDIVE wrote:
You are RIGHT Lynn:
We put a man on the moon with analog gauges and NOW we fixate on digital... For my $2.00 ... Have you ever flown with someone that has a DIGITAL TACH?
Watch their EYES - How Long it takes them to set a RPM.
How fixated they are on getting the RPM right ON!
How Long there eyes are INSIDE the cockpit rather than LQQKing OUTSIDE.
Oil Temps are the SAME ISSUE... On climb-out ask them what is their oil Temp? And again watch their eyes... and Lissen to what they report.
186.7 F instead of IN THE GREEN or between 180 & 190 F
WAIT till they have an emergency situation and they once again become fixated on THE NUMBERS!
It is like driving a car and talking on the cell phone. BOTH operations require the same side of the brain and they compete with each other.
Same is true of DIGITAL Vs ANALOG. The DIGITAL requires you to THINK and REMEMBER numbers as apposed to GO/NO-GO... GREEN, YELLOW & RED.
Ever since birth we are ANALOG and today they are saying babies like Black & White and Round and Square.
Back to the K.I.S.S. M.E. Principal.
Barry
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BARRY CHECK 6
Joined: 15 Mar 2011
Posts: 738
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| Posted: Wed Jul 20, 2011 3:47 pm Post subject: Voltmeter advice needed |
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Peter:
What do you disagree strongly with? The gauges or human nature?
Gauges - Yes that digital readout is a more accurate number. No
disagreement there.
But you prove the point. Who cares if the RPM is 2830 or 2800. If YOU are
reading 2830 you are spending too much time LQQKing at the gauge. That is
human nature. You do NOT stare at an Analog gauge and attempt to figure out
if it is 2800 or 2830. Just as you indicated what your action would be.
That is why many instruments are color coded. To take away human error.
As Lynn stated and his instructor pick up on .... Close is good enough.
NOW... To support you and Digital Gauges... YES if you want to track and
collect some data because you have a question or a problem DIGITAL GAUGES
are GREAT! And since 95% of my flying is with a passenger / co-pilot... I
use them to watch or record the exact numbers. I glance at the gauges to
make sure they are IN THE GREEN. I do not concern myself with 'what shade
of green'. There was even a post about digital gauges with a LED ring
around the outside of the digital readout. Why? To reduce the human
factor. To reduce the normal human action of spending too much time LQQKing
at flickering numbers.
Barry
On Mon, Jul 18, 2011 at 5:17 PM, Pete Krotje <pete(at)usjabiru.com> wrote:
[quote] I disagree strongly. Digital display tachometers are easy to read at a
glance and return very accurate information. At a glance I can see (for
example) that Im getting 2830 rpm climbing out at 80 knots in our J230. If
it were an analog display Id see at a glance that I have a little over 2800
rpm maybe 2850. Why not be precise at a glance? It takes more time to
stare at a analog display to determine which small line the needle rests on
that to take a quick glance at a digital display and see a precise number
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japhillipsga(at)aol.com
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| Posted: Wed Jul 20, 2011 5:19 pm Post subject: Voltmeter advice needed |
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Analog gauges, in the green ?? What do we need them for? Why the early flyers only had a ribbon tied of a nail to judge speed and rpm was determined whether they could count the rotation of the bicycle chain sprocket as the props turned. Why do we need that analog stuff? Real Pilots just hears and feels the plane and the air. In the Green? what does that prove? Who set that standard? Why should we ever try to have something more sophisticated? What a waste of time and effort! Same argument, different direction. Truth is I have a big glass screen from MGL in my new RV-8a and I will need a long while to pickup on all the data it provides and apply it to my flying efforts and goals. Seems we forgot that flying a modern plane safely and correctly requires a bunch of skills and a load of situational awareness of the plane in relation to the good earth and the operating condition of the machine. I say if your always flying outside the cockpit, sooner or later your going to run out of fuel. Happens every day to somebody. Got to have the right blend to be safe. Right? Best of luck, Bill & Blue Bird, N288WP, RV-8a, 9 hrs into Phase l
--
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BARRY CHECK 6
Joined: 15 Mar 2011
Posts: 738
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| Posted: Wed Jul 20, 2011 6:16 pm Post subject: Voltmeter advice needed |
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LOL...Very Good Bill.
We don't need no stinking digital!
I don't watch no stinking meter to tell me my fuel level... It is right outside the windscreen bobbing up & down on a cork & wire.
When do I switch fuel tanks? When one wing drops and I'm too lazy to applyoppositeaerlon & rudder.
Can I log glider time when I run out of fuel?
Barry
On Wed, Jul 20, 2011 at 9:16 PM, <japhillipsga(at)aol.com (japhillipsga(at)aol.com)> wrote:
[quote]Analog gauges, in the green ?? What do we need them for? Why the early flyers only had a ribbon tied of a nail to judge speed and rpm was determined whether they could count the rotation of the bicycle chain sprocket as the props turned. Why do we need that analog stuff? Real Pilots just hears and feels the plane and the air. In the Green? what does that prove? Who set that standard? Why should we ever try to have something more sophisticated? What a waste of time and effort! Same argument, different direction. Truth is I have a big glass screen from MGL in my new RV-8a and I will need a long while to pickup on all the data it provides and apply it to my flying efforts and goals. Seems we forgot that flying a modern plane safely and correctly requires a bunch of skills and a load of situational awareness of the plane in relation to the good earth and the operating condition of the machine. I say if your always flying outside the cockpit, sooner or later your going to run out of fuel. Happens every day to somebody. Got to have the right blend to be safe. Right? Best of luck, Bill & Blue Bird, N288WP, RV-8a, 9 hrs into Phase l
--
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pete(at)usjabiru.com
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| Posted: Thu Jul 21, 2011 7:25 am Post subject: Voltmeter advice needed |
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Barry,
If you really want to know what is going on with an engine you need precise info. Believe me – you will stare at an analog tach to get the actual position of the needle against the little hash mark lines for a longer time than it takes to glance at a digital and get the aactual precise number instantly. If you don’t take the time to interpret just where the needle really is on an analog tach or temp you really can’t be precise. When we must flight test LSA aircraft to make sure we don’t exceed Vh we must know the rpm exactly. If we’re close the rpm may be just a bit high ans we can exceed Vh and then would have to call the aircraft non compliant.
I just don’t see any reason to say close is good enough when you can do better!
Pete
From: owner-jabiruengine-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-jabiruengine-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of FLYaDIVE
Sent: Wednesday, July 20, 2011 6:45 PM
To: jabiruengine-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: Re: Voltmeter advice needed
Peter:
What do you disagree strongly with? The gauges or human nature?
Gauges - Yes that digital readout is a more accurate number. No disagreement there.
But you prove the point. Who cares if the RPM is 2830 or 2800. If YOU are reading 2830 you are spending too much time LQQKing at the gauge. That is human nature. You do NOT stare at an Analog gauge and attempt to figure out if it is 2800 or 2830. Just as you indicated what your action would be. That is why many instruments are color coded. To take away human error.
As Lynn stated and his instructor pick up on .... Close is good enough.
NOW... To support you and Digital Gauges... YES if you want to track and collect some data because you have a question or a problem DIGITAL GAUGES are GREAT! And since 95% of my flying is with a passenger / co-pilot... I use them to watch or record the exact numbers. I glance at the gauges to make sure they are IN THE GREEN. I do not concern myself with 'what shade of green'. There was even a post about digital gauges with a LED ring around the outside of the digital readout. Why? To reduce the human factor. To reduce the normal human action of spending too much time LQQKing at flickering numbers.
Barry
On Mon, Jul 18, 2011 at 5:17 PM, Pete Krotje <pete(at)usjabiru.com (pete(at)usjabiru.com)> wrote:
I disagree strongly. Digital display tachometers are easy to read at a glance and return very accurate information. At a glance I can see (for example) that I’m getting 2830 rpm climbing out at 80 knots in our J230. If it were an analog display I’d see at a glance that I have a little over 2800 rpm – maybe 2850. Why not be precise at a glance? It takes more time to stare at a analog display to determine which small line the needle rests on that to take a quick glance at a digital display and see a precise number.
Same thing with engine instruments. I get calls all the time about EGT’s and the customer tells me he’s “in the green”. When I ask what temp his EGT’s really are he can’t be precise. Some callers don’t even know where the green starts and stops. To get a carb tuned correctly you need precise information to straddle that fine line between good economy and engine damage. “In the green” just doesn’t cut it.
Most of the better engine digital displays can show a trend line. At a glance I can tell if my CHT’s are rising or if they are falling. Nice to know at a glance that when you level off for cruise that temps begin falling after the climb but CRITICAL to know if they continue to rise. With an analog display you might discern the trend if you can remember the temp from when you looked last and can remember when that last look occurred. You might even get distracted from flying the plane while intently staring at the analog temp display to see if the needle moves.
In experimental aircraft where often cowl development may not be the highest priority and where R&D budgets do not exist a good monitor is essential to report what is going on in the engine compartment. The cost is less than comparable analog instruments and the capabilities are significantly above.
On Jul 18, 2011, at 9:28 AM, FLYaDIVE wrote:
You are RIGHT Lynn:
We put a man on the moon with analog gauges and NOW we fixate on digital... For my $2.00 ... Have you ever flown with someone that has a DIGITAL TACH?
Watch their EYES - How Long it takes them to set a RPM.
How fixated they are on getting the RPM right ON!
How Long there eyes are INSIDE the cockpit rather than LQQKing OUTSIDE.
Oil Temps are the SAME ISSUE... On climb-out ask them what is their oil Temp? And again watch their eyes... and Lissen to what they report.
186.7 F instead of IN THE GREEN or between 180 & 190 F
WAIT till they have an emergency situation and they once again become fixated on THE NUMBERS!
It is like driving a car and talking on the cell phone. BOTH operations require the same side of the brain and they compete with each other.
Same is true of DIGITAL Vs ANALOG. The DIGITAL requires you to THINK and REMEMBER numbers as apposed to GO/NO-GO... GREEN, YELLOW & RED.
Ever since birth we are ANALOG and today they are saying babies like Black & White and Round and Square.
Back to the K.I.S.S. M.E. Principal.
Barry
===========
-
ine-List" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?JabiruEngine-List
===========
MS -
k">http://forums.matronics.com
===========
e -
-Matt Dralle, List Admin.
t="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
===========
| Quote: | | ist" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?JabiruEngine-Listtp://forums.matronics.com |
01
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gpabruce(at)gmail.com
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| Posted: Thu Jul 21, 2011 7:10 pm Post subject: Voltmeter advice needed |
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As I recall,there is an old Chinese proverb about flying . . . "Pilot who fly's upside down will have crack up" . . . . I found that always to be true!  Also, old airmail pilots used to hang a gold necklace from the compass to tell if they are right side up in the fog . . . kinda simple instrumentation when all else fails . . . problem is I have no gold left.
In my field of work, everything's gone digital and programmable. Problem is the old timers who were masters at calibration and certification have gone and the new bucks don't realize that all instrumentation must be calibrated and verified to a NIST standard to be useful. Without that, a person might as well be using the old necklace as a guide. When the necklace is pointing towards the headliner . . . then "pilot is flying with his crack up". Soon he will hear that loud sound of silence and his heart beat just before the ground rises up to smite his butt.
No matter what the precision and resolution, if it ain't calibrated it's just extra weight. It becomes just pretty GIGO . . garbage in, garbage out.
Bruce
On Wed, Jul 20, 2011 at 6:16 PM, <japhillipsga(at)aol.com (japhillipsga(at)aol.com)> wrote:
[quote] Analog gauges, in the green ?? What do we need them for? Why the early flyers only had a ribbon tied of a nail to judge speed and rpm was determined whether they could count the rotation of the bicycle chain sprocket as the props turned. Why do we need that analog stuff? Real Pilots just hears and feels the plane and the air. In the Green? what does that prove? Who set that standard? Why should we ever try to have something more sophisticated? What a waste of time and effort! Same argument, different direction. Truth is I have a big glass screen from MGL in my new RV-8a and I will need a long while to pickup on all the data it provides and apply it to my flying efforts and goals. Seems we forgot that flying a modern plane safely and correctly requires a bunch of skills and a load of situational awareness of the plane in relation to the good earth and the operating condition of the machine. I say if your always flying outside the cockpit, sooner or later your going to run out of fuel. Happens every day to somebody. Got to have the right blend to be safe. Right? Best of luck, Bill & Blue Bird, N288WP, RV-8a, 9 hrs into Phase l
--
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plus2s
Joined: 30 Nov 2006
Posts: 65
Location: NEW ZEALAND
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| Posted: Thu Jul 21, 2011 7:51 pm Post subject: Voltmeter advice needed |
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The only instrument that is handy is the oil pressure gauge !! and that is only for a comparison - the reading doesn't matter . no need for calibration.
Everything else is covered by the nomal senses.
Unless you are blind deaf and can't smell - then you shouldn't be flying !!!
I always remember an old pilot telling me you don't need an altimeter or ASI
If the ground is below you , you have altitude
If the ground is moving you have airspeed.
No need for a rev counter
If the engine is making a noise, its going
Gives you more time to look outside the plane ??
Happy Flying
Keith
--- On Fri, 22/7/11, b d <gpabruce(at)gmail.com> wrote:
| Quote: |
From: b d <gpabruce(at)gmail.com>
Subject: Re: Voltmeter advice needed
To: jabiruengine-list(at)matronics.com
Date: Friday, 22, July, 2011, 3:06 PM
As I recall, there is an old Chinese proverb about flying . . . "Pilot who fly's upside down will have crack up" . . . . I found that always to be true! Also, old airmail pilots used to hang a gold necklace from the compass to tell if they are right side up in the fog . . . kinda simple instrumentation when all else fails . . . problem is I have no gold left.
In my field of work, everything's gone digital and programmable. Problem is the old timers who were masters at calibration and certification have gone and the new bucks don't realize that all instrumentation must be calibrated and verified to a NIST standard to be useful. Without that, a person might as well be using the old necklace as a guide. When the necklace is pointing towards the headliner . . . then "pilot is flying with his crack up". Soon he will hear that loud sound of silence and his heart beat just before the ground rises up to smite his butt.
No matter what the precision and resolution, if it ain't calibrated it's just extra weight. It becomes just pretty GIGO . . garbage in, garbage out.
Bruce
|
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gpabruce(at)gmail.com
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| Posted: Thu Jul 21, 2011 8:42 pm Post subject: Voltmeter advice needed |
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I love big global statements . . .wouldn't fuel quantity be somewhat important? Have you ever got caught in the soup before? I like a few little clues when that happens. Really an oil gauge doesn't help a lot since you can't do anything if you don't like the reading anyway unless a passenger farts at which time I'd rather not smell it . . . The old pilot has never been caught in the soup . . . maybe a hangar pilot? You know the ground is below you? You haven't been in the soup . . .better carry a gold necklace, it will point to the ground for you.
Gads you really haven't been caught in the soup yet. . . you've been luckyyyyyyyyy Try wearing a hood for a bit and then write that list. Better yet take an IFR course and drive into the soup.
Not only soup but out West here we have places with no lights and with some overcast blocking out the stars and moon, you have no reference but you're still VFR . . . unless you have really super good smell . . . I'd say you will be crying and begging for relief real soon. Gads could I tell you real life stories . . . Go ahead and fly with just an oil pressure gauge and let me know how that works for ya. (I'm not talking about touch and go's in the pattern type flying . . .I mean real flying.
Bruce
On Thu, Jul 21, 2011 at 8:48 PM, Keith Pickford <kpickford(at)xtra.co.nz (kpickford(at)xtra.co.nz)> wrote:
[quote]The only instrument that is handy is the oil pressure gauge !! and that is only for a comparison - the reading doesn't matter . no need for calibration.
Everything else is covered by the nomal senses.
Unless you are blind deaf and can't smell - then you shouldn't be flying !!!
I always remember an old pilot telling me you don't need an altimeter or ASI
If the ground is below you , you have altitude
If the ground is moving you have airspeed.
No need for a rev counter
If the engine is making a noise, its going
Gives you more time to look outside the plane ??
Happy Flying
Keith
--- On Fri, 22/7/11, b d <gpabruce(at)gmail.com (gpabruce(at)gmail.com)> wrote:
| Quote: |
From: b d <gpabruce(at)gmail.com (gpabruce(at)gmail.com)>
Subject: Re: Voltmeter advice needed
To: jabiruengine-list(at)matronics.com (jabiruengine-list(at)matronics.com)
Date: Friday, 22, July, 2011, 3:06 PM
As I recall,there is an old Chinese proverb about flying . . . "Pilot who fly's upside down will have crack up" . . . . I found that always to be true! Also, old airmail pilots used to hang a gold necklace from the compass to tell if they are right side up in the fog . . . kinda simple instrumentation when all else fails . . . problem is I have no gold left.
In my field of work, everything's gone digital and programmable. Problem is the old timers who were masters at calibration and certification have gone and the new bucks don't realize that all instrumentation must be calibrated and verified to a NIST standard to be useful. Without that, a person might as well be using the old necklace as a guide. When the necklace is pointing towards the headliner . . . then "pilot is flying with his crack up". Soon he will hear that loud sound of silence and his heart beat just before the ground rises up to smite his butt.
No matter what the precision and resolution, if it ain't calibrated it's just extra weight. It becomes just pretty GIGO . . garbage in, garbage out.
Bruce
|
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ist" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?JabiruEngine-List
tp://forums.matronics.com
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japhillipsga(at)aol.com
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| Posted: Fri Jul 22, 2011 5:43 pm Post subject: Voltmeter advice needed |
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Bruce, I don't think Keith really meant it literally with just an oil gauge. I'm sure Keith knows better and he's just messing with us. I was just kidding the other fellow about analog. We have to try to lighten up a bit on these lists. Flying and airplanes we all have in common. Pretty big things! Bess all you folks and I remain, Bill of Georgia N288WP, RV-8a, 9 hrs into Phase l; CH601 XL-B, N505WP, 160 hrs (for sale).
--
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plus2s
Joined: 30 Nov 2006
Posts: 65
Location: NEW ZEALAND
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| Posted: Fri Jul 22, 2011 10:07 pm Post subject: Voltmeter advice needed |
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Yep - we eat soup out of a plate with a spoon - We don't fly in pea soupers. We are in the middle of winter and have nice clear days with snow on the hills - Great days to go flying
Cheers
Keith - In New Zealand
--- On Sat, 23/7/11, japhillipsga(at)aol.com <japhillipsga(at)aol.com> wrote:
[quote]
From: japhillipsga(at)aol.com <japhillipsga(at)aol.com>
Subject: Re: Voltmeter advice needed
To: jabiruengine-list(at)matronics.com
Date: Saturday, 23, July, 2011, 1:41 PM
Bruce, I don't think Keith really meant it literally with just an oil gauge. I'm sure Keith knows better and he's just messing with us. I was just kidding the other fellow about analog. We have to try to lighten up a bit on these lists. Flying and airplanes we all have in common. Pretty big things! Bess all you folks and I remain, Bill of Georgia N288WP, RV-8a, 9 hrs into Phase l; CH601 XL-B, N505WP, 160 hrs (for sale).
--
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