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rv10flyer(at)verizon.net
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 Posted: Fri Jul 22, 2011 11:39 am Post subject: Greg is in Sport Aviation again |
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Looks like Vans gives his feedback on Greg’s plane in the next issue of Sport Aviation (pg 96)
[quote][b]
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robin(at)PaintTheWeb.com
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| Posted: Fri Jul 22, 2011 1:52 pm Post subject: Greg is in Sport Aviation again |
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I wish Greg had the opportunity to post his reply along side the article.
I have not yet read the SA posting but I also hope the inaccuracy in Vans comments about increased gross weight were removed as it paints an inaccurate picture of Greg's choices.
Robin
Do Not Archive
Sent from my iPad2.
On Jul 22, 2011, at 3:44 PM, Pascal <rv10flyer(at)verizon.net (rv10flyer(at)verizon.net)> wrote:
[quote] Looks like Vans gives his feedback on Greg’s plane in the next issue of Sport Aviation (pg 96)
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msausen
Joined: 25 Oct 2007
Posts: 559
Location: Appleton, WI USA
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| Posted: Fri Jul 22, 2011 3:51 pm Post subject: Greg is in Sport Aviation again |
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Yep, it's the exact same response that Vans had posted. Too bad SA didn't bother to double check the facts with Greg.
Michael
Sent from my iPad2
On Jul 22, 2011, at 5:00 PM, "Robin Marks" <robin(at)PaintTheWeb.com (robin(at)PaintTheWeb.com)> wrote:
[quote] I wish Greg had the opportunity to post his reply along side the article.
I have not yet read the SA posting but I also hope the inaccuracy in Vans comments about increased gross weight were removed as it paints an inaccurate picture of Greg's choices.
Robin
Do Not Archive
Sent from my iPad2.
On Jul 22, 2011, at 3:44 PM, Pascal < (rv10flyer(at)verizon.net)rv10flyer(at)verizon.net (rv10flyer(at)verizon.net)> wrote:
| Quote: | Looks like Vans gives his feedback on Greg’s plane in the next issue of Sport Aviation (pg 96)
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greghale
Joined: 10 Jan 2007
Posts: 91
Location: Tulsa, Oklahoma
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| Posted: Fri Jul 22, 2011 8:12 pm Post subject: Re: Greg is in Sport Aviation again |
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Sport Aviation gave me a heads up on Vans request to place his Facebook article in the August issue. I asked if they could include my comments, but they said his article would take up all the allowable space available for this section of the magazine. They did say they would include a link to my web site.
I sent Vans a personal email asking why he decided to single me out when there have been many before me with RV modifications – corvette engine, 3 seat RV6, floats and a complete redesign of the RV10 cabin top for a few. I didn’t expect an answer nor did I get one. Except for the seat adjustment lever I sold, I was not making parts or plans on what I did. All I did was share my ideas and methods on what I did.
Sport Aviation sent an email to me shortly after my first flight inquiring about my airplane. They had been following my changes and wanted to do an article on it. At the time I thought this was great, but now knowing the repercussions, I would have turned them down. When my aircraft was judged at Sun n Fun, I wasn’t even at the aircraft. I had only bought the “Do Not Touch” sign to place on my propeller with my information on it. Not wanting to stay for the airshow, I left about 2 hours after I arrived.
Guys, I have to be honest. This whole thing has really taken the wind out of my sails and given me nothing but grief. My only intention was to complement the RV10 aircraft which I still think is a great aircraft.
Greg...
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msausen
Joined: 25 Oct 2007
Posts: 559
Location: Appleton, WI USA
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| Posted: Sat Jul 23, 2011 4:02 am Post subject: Greg is in Sport Aviation again |
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Greg,
I wouldn't give it another thought. You did a great job and frankly much less modification than many others. Van is in his standard CYA mode so no one should be surprised at his response, it's standard fare. I can guarantee he wouldn't even hesitate to sell you another kit, it's all about risk mitigation and the business and I can't fault him one bit for that.
The thing I find a bit disturbing is that our association, that has built itself up on the premise of experimental aviation and homebuilding, allowed the response it did without making it more factual. To me this is at least partially from having a manufacturing centric editor that doesn't really seem to understand the associations constituents. I'm all for shaking things up but not at the cost of abandoning it's roots.
I may be over reacting but I'm really disappointed in SA publishing a one sided response that is clearly not bearing all the facts. Having grown up and still residing in the shadow of OSH and knowing everything that EAA has done for the local economy and the role it's played in my aviation interests I can only hope this isn't the start of an even more big GA centric view.
Michael
Sent from my iPad2
On Jul 22, 2011, at 11:25 PM, "greghale" <ghale5224(at)aol.com> wrote:
| Quote: |
Sport Aviation gave me a heads up on Vans request to place his Facebook article in the August issue. I asked if they could include my comments, but they said his article would take up all the allowable space available for this section of the magazine. They did say they would include a link to my web site.
I sent Vans a personal email asking why he decided to single me out when there have been many before me with RV modifications ‚?" corvette engine, 3 seat RV6, floats and a complete redesign of the RV10 cabin top for a few. I didn‚?Tt expect an answer nor did I get one. Except for the seat adjustment lever I sold, I was not making parts or plans on what I did. All I did was share my ideas and methods on what I did.
Sport Aviation sent an email to me shortly after my first flight inquiring about my airplane. They had been following my changes and wanted to do an article on it. At the time I thought this was great, but now knowing the repercussions, I would have turned them down. When my aircraft was judged at Sun n Fun, I wasn‚?Tt even at the aircraft. I had only bought the ‚?oDo Not Touch‚?ů sign to place on my propeller with my information on it. Not wanting to stay for the airshow, I left about 2 hours after I arrived.
Guys, I have to be honest. This whole thing has really taken the wind out of my sails and given me nothing but grief. My only intention was to complement the RV10 aircraft which I still think is a great aircraft.
Greg...
--------
Greg Hale rv10 -- N210KH
www.nwacaptain.com
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=347458#347458
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weeav8ter
Joined: 01 Mar 2010
Posts: 16
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| Posted: Sat Jul 23, 2011 4:22 am Post subject: Greg is in Sport Aviation again |
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Greg,
I think you did an outstanding job on your plane and don't believe that you should feel anything but pride. You've got one beautiful bird! I built mine the way I wanted it, as you did, and if someone else doesn't agree with me that's ok because that's their opinion, but it's still my plane the way I wanted it built. It's experimental, so that's the whole idea, build it the way you want it, hopefully always keeping safety in mind of coarse.
So I think you need to put some wind back in your sail because you've built one beautiful flying machine and you should be very proud of it.
Wayne Edgerton N602WT
40336
Sent from my Iphone Wayne
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Jim Combs
Joined: 24 Jan 2010
Posts: 140
Location: Lexington, Ky
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| Posted: Sat Jul 23, 2011 7:01 am Post subject: Greg is in Sport Aviation again |
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Guys lets take a look at all this without any emotion.
Greg won an award not for engineering but for craftsmanship and quality of construction. Nothing in that award is for engineering changes to a design. Craftsmanship and attention to details during construction have nothing to do with engineering changes and testing to validate changes. Great craftsmanship does not equal good engineering. There is a perception that any time someone makes a change that they have done testing to validate those changes. That takes money and time. Very few people will do that.
Greg deserves his award based on quality and craftsmanship. That is obvious.
Vans position on the other hand is all about engineering and safety. Vans Aircraft have done the engineering and testing (Take a look at the wing loading tests they did to validate the 2700lb using 3.8G and a 1.5 safety factor).
The article says NOTHING about Gregs quality of construction. It is all about changes to the aircraft design with NO DATA to back up those engineering changes. The article is not bashing Gregs attention to detail and finish. It is about the engineering behind the changes.
What I see is a change to loading and gross weight of a kit that Vans designed and stands behind. Any testing to validate the new design point is missing. The same points can be made for the front seat belt attach points. One should build several fuselages with the different seat belt attach points and crash test them with proper instrumentation before just making claims that design "A" is better then design "B". Adding fuel out away from the center of gravity and not doing any engineering testing is a third point brought up in the article.
Yes, Greg is being singled out for making changes. He won a very significant award for his workmanship. It was rightfully won and he deserves it. That award put him in the big spotlight. That is the unfortunate part of all this.
Vans is rightfully pointing out that THEIR design has been changed and if anything happens down the road THEY will be ones dragged into court for faulty engineering even though changes were made without proper testing. Vans is not always great with their engineering. The doors of the -10 are an area that deserves more thought and possibly changes.
Just looking at both sides of this.
Jim Combs
N312F - Flying 250 hours.
On Sat, Jul 23, 2011 at 7:56 AM, RV Builder (Michael Sausen) <rvbuilder(at)sausen.net (rvbuilder(at)sausen.net)> wrote:
[quote]--> RV10-List message posted by: "RV Builder (Michael Sausen)" <rvbuilder(at)sausen.net (rvbuilder(at)sausen.net)>
Greg,
I wouldn't give it another thought. You did a great job and frankly much less modification than many others. Van is in his standard CYA mode so no one should be surprised at his response, it's standard fare. I can guarantee he wouldn't even hesitate to sell you another kit, it's all about risk mitigation and the business and I can't fault him one bit for that.
The thing I find a bit disturbing is that our association, that has built itself up on the premise of experimental aviation and homebuilding, allowed the response it did without making it more factual. To me this is at least partially from having a manufacturing centric editor that doesn't really seem to understand the associations constituents. I'm all for shaking things up but not at the cost of abandoning it's roots.
I may be over reacting but I'm really disappointed in SA publishing a one sided response that is clearly not bearing all the facts. Having grown up and still residing in the shadow of OSH and knowing everything that EAA has done for the local economy and the role it's played in my aviation interests I can only hope this isn't the start of an even more big GA centric view.
Michael
Sent from my iPad2
On Jul 22, 2011, at 11:25 PM, "greghale" <ghale5224(at)aol.com (ghale5224(at)aol.com)> wrote:
> --> RV10-List message posted by: "greghale" <ghale5224(at)aol.com (ghale5224(at)aol.com)>
>
> Sport Aviation gave me a heads up on Vans request to place his Facebook article in the August issue. I asked if they could include my comments, but they said his article would take up all the allowable space available for this section of the magazine. They did say they would include a link to my web site.
>
> I sent Vans a personal email asking why he decided to single me out when there have been many before me with RV modifications ‚?" corvette engine, 3 seat RV6, floats and a complete redesign of the RV10 cabin top for a few. I didn‚?Tt expect an answer nor did I get one. Except for the seat adjustment lever I sold, I was not making parts or plans on what I did. All I did was share my ideas and methods on what I did.
>
> Sport Aviation sent an email to me shortly after my first flight inquiring about my airplane. They had been following my changes and wanted to do an article on it. At the time I thought this was great, but now knowing the repercussions, I would have turned them down. When my aircraft was judged at Sun n Fun, I wasn‚?Tt even at the aircraft. I had only bought the ‚?oDo Not Touch‚?ů sign to place on my propeller with my information on it. Not wanting to stay for the airshow, I left about 2 hours after I arrived.
>
> Guys, I have to be honest. This whole thing has really taken the wind out of my sails and given me nothing but grief. My only intention was to complement the RV10 aircraft which I still think is a great aircraft.
>
> Greg...
>
> --------
> Greg Hale rv10 -- N210KH
> www.nwacaptain.com
>
>
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=347458#347458
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
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AV8ORJWC
Joined: 13 Jul 2006
Posts: 1149
Location: Aurora, Oregon "Home of VANS"
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| Posted: Sat Jul 23, 2011 8:17 am Post subject: Greg is in Sport Aviation again |
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Greg, I am hopeful the wind is back in your sails soon. I concur with Michael. Having felt the scorn of Dick and his Vans Aircraft team in the past, I too see both sides. He is calling in his markers with EAA to protect his flank from exactly what devastated the Lancair community a few years back. Insurance became "UNobtainable" and the sale of kits vaporized. Joe Bartel had to sell out and much seems to be going offshore. Even Cirrus is Chinese these days.
I had pointed out early on with the prototype fuselage that a 12" wide tunnel would not serve more robust builder torsos like mine or Deems. The door would not close and we needed more shoulder room and less tunnel width. That triggered a torturous delay in the delivery of early fuselage kits to builders who had finished the Empennage. "Let me say here - I AM SORRY". Then I had the audacity to state that I thought the rudder hinge points provided a "Point of potential Failure". Two weeks later the RV-10 got its first SB. No I am not an Aeronautical Engineer. I just like to talk about Gonad Vents and points of improvement for conversation cause to me it is clear. I too want a safe flying aircraft and a parts supplier who listens and will stay in business - long term.
As a mentor on Teen Flight, read "Band of Builders (Brothers) pages 110-114 in this same SA, our quiet group of Instructors/Mentors are not named which is okay. The last four weeks I have been hastily rebuilding a crashed RV-12 so it can fly to the "Big Show". I don't dare mention the specific parts I again find in need of redesign with the RV-12 model. Cause I hanger at KUAO and am a member in the same fraternal aviation club that VAN now belongs too, I am learning about speaking out it... doesn't pay and it carries a consequence. Another pet peeve is the EAA using Dick's picture to promote "Lifetime Membership". I was awed into becoming one only to find out that neither EAA nor Dick felt compelled for him to be one.
Greg, you have embodied what is best about Experimental/ Amateur build. It was what caused Lance Niebauer to bring scores of spectators for two decades to OSH each year and see what is new and exciting from the Left Coast. It is what leads to "Grand Champion" and the improvements many of us love. I have not forgotten how Van (or was that Ken Krueger) did not want to embrace EFIS and put that damn center rib in the RV-10 glareshield to force steam gages installations. Tim O. had the shocking audacity to modify that rib (Early ON). Your workmanship, your desire to improve our craft and hopefully to return is a tribute to all who follow. Geoff should also get an award as well for his composite mods. When VANS acknowledges "Areas of Improvement" I will know that they listen to builders. The overworked "Just Build it" from Ken Scott, when scores of ribs have cracks from improper metal treatment leaves me with my phrase "Choose wisely" - you are the first line of liability, the QC and the decision maker long before VANS Aircraft is brought into litigation. Vans builds great parts - not perfect parts. They have been most effective into shoring up there flank with the most recent published cautions to deviating from those plans. EAA has done us all a dis-service by printing Vans facebook retort (without a balanced rebuttal from you) IMHO. Seems like Rupert & company across the pond. Good journalism is a dying industry.
My hat is off to you and your balanced clarification from where you were coming from and what drove you to do what you did so well. I will be carrying around a Cold Beer or two these next few days to help blow hot air into those deflated sails.
To other builders, we are blessed to have such a fine kit to improve on. If your boat is floated by not one single modification but "Just Build It", then that's great too. Van will be just fine. So will his company - they are great, hardworking dedicated members. He has just hunkered down for the next group of builders who don't walk away from their own operations of landing safely where they intended.... regardless of mods.
Fly Safe. Enjoy OSH '11
John Cox #40600
From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com on behalf of RV Builder (Michael Sausen)
Sent: Sat 7/23/2011 4:56 AM
To: <rv10-list(at)matronics.com>
Subject: Re: Re: Greg is in Sport Aviation again
--> RV10-List message posted by: "RV Builder (Michael Sausen)" <rvbuilder(at)sausen.net>
Greg,
I wouldn't give it another thought. You did a great job and frankly much less modification than many others. Van is in his standard CYA mode so no one should be surprised at his response, it's standard fare. I can guarantee he wouldn't even hesitate to sell you another kit, it's all about risk mitigation and the business and I can't fault him one bit for that.
The thing I find a bit disturbing is that our association, that has built itself up on the premise of experimental aviation and homebuilding, allowed the response it did without making it more factual. To me this is at least partially from having a manufacturing centric editor that doesn't really seem to understand the associations constituents. I'm all for shaking things up but not at the cost of abandoning it's roots.
I may be over reacting but I'm really disappointed in SA publishing a one sided response that is clearly not bearing all the facts. Having grown up and still residing in the shadow of OSH and knowing everything that EAA has done for the local economy and the role it's played in my aviation interests I can only hope this isn't the start of an even more big GA centric view.
Michael
Sent from my iPad2
On Jul 22, 2011, at 11:25 PM, "greghale" <ghale5224(at)aol.com> wrote:
| Quote: | --> RV10-List message posted by: "greghale" <ghale5224(at)aol.com>
Sport Aviation gave me a heads up on Vans request to place his Facebook article in the August issue. I asked if they could include my comments, but they said his article would take up all the allowable space available for this section of the magazine. They did say they would include a link to my web site.
Guys, I have to be honest. This whole thing has really taken the wind out of my sails and given me nothing but grief. My only intention was to complement the RV10 aircraft which I still think is a great aircraft.
Greg...
--------
Greg Hale rv10 -- N210KH
www.nwacaptain.com
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=347458#347458
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Albert Gardner
Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 455
Location: Yuma, AZ
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| Posted: Sat Jul 23, 2011 8:40 am Post subject: Greg is in Sport Aviation again |
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Greg: I hope you shrug this off. Your plane shows what can be done and is very nice. If Vans response had been delayed a few months and was directed to all builders who were deviating from his plans and was by way of caution and advice it might have been better received. I know it makes me think about changes I have made and might make in the future. Several RV-10's have AC, there is a underslung motorcycle carrier available, and more than one has tip tanks or enlarged main tanks.
Albert Gardner, Oshkosh bound.
In Grand Forks, ND, waiting for good weather.
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rv10flyer(at)verizon.net
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| Posted: Sat Jul 23, 2011 7:38 pm Post subject: Greg is in Sport Aviation again |
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Greg;
For what this is worth, I have used your W&B spreadsheet, I have looked at
your numerous upgrades and always marveled at the perfection of your
workmanship. I suggest you write a column to the editor with your response.
Your intention has not gone unnoticed by us builders, nor the community. I
can see the wind out of the sails but don’t lose faith at this point, your
plane truly is awesome and Sport Aviation knew that when they wrote the
article. Vans has been sued by others way too many times to not throw his
thoughts out. Sport Aviation should have given the other side of the story,
if that meant removing some of the Vans article to do so, than the editor
should have done so, I am rather disappointed personally that they did not.
I know how you feel, really I do but do write that article to Sport
Aviation, if nothing else to vent your thoughts and get it out.
Pascal
--
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