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No N number

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David d.

Joined: 04 Jul 2011
Posts: 60
Location: Fitzgerald Ga.

Posted: Sun Jul 24, 2011 12:04 pm Post subject: No N number

There is a kolb on barnstormers for sale.  It was converted from a tandem seating to a side by side.

The ad also says the N number will have to be removed. It also said the inspection was not completed.

I have read recently that if some inspection was not completed on time that the FAA would not reissue, even to a new owner.

Can anyone comment on this N number issue, or am i confusing it with something else. 

Thanks,

David d.

gtaylor35918(at)roadrunne
Guest

Posted: Sun Jul 24, 2011 1:08 pm Post subject: No N number

Dave,

       Not too long ago I sold a FS 1 back to the person I bought it off of

because I found out from the FAA that if it was not certified by Jan. 2010

and had a airworthy certificate that I could not register it, and If I could

not get it below the 254 lb. ultralite weight that I would not legally be

able to fly it. I gave 3000 for the plane and I have about 8 or 9 grand in

my Private/IFR ticket so I decided it wasn't worth the risk of my license to

fly the FS even though it was fun to fly. For what it's worth I plan to find

one that is legal to fly. If you can't keep the N-number then it/s just a

lawn ornament.



--

elleryweld(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Sun Jul 24, 2011 4:14 pm Post subject: No N number

I talked with a FAA Rep in my area and they are willing to bend a bit to help some people out 

 

     Ellery Batchelder Jr.

 

 

 

   --

gliderx5

Joined: 30 Jun 2008
Posts: 203

Posted: Sun Jul 24, 2011 4:34 pm Post subject: No N number

David



The N number is usually not a problem, but that is just the registration that shows that you own it.  The difficult part is the airworthiness certificate.  The January 2010 deadline that for light sport.  You can still register it as an experimental amateur built any time, as long as you can document that it was built by amateurs.  This will require a builders log, including photos of the building process.  If the seller has that information then it should not be a huge deal to get the airworthiness certificate.  If he does not have it, then you probably will not be able to make it legal to fly.



Malcolm Morrison

http://home.comcast.net/~mmorrison123/index.htm



From: "SS568" <david(at)PaulowniaTrees.com>

To: kolb-list(at)matronics.com

Sent: Sunday, July 24, 2011 4:04:37 PM

Subject: Kolb-List: No N number



--> Kolb-List message posted by: "SS568" <david(at)PaulowniaTrees.com>



There is a kolb on barnstormers for sale.  It was converted from a tandem seating to a side by side.

The ad also says the N number will have to be removed. It also said the inspection was not completed.

I have read recently that if some inspection was not completed on time that the FAA would not reissue, even to a new owner.

Can anyone comment on this N number issue, or am i confusing it with something else. 

Thanks,

David d.





Read this topic online here:



http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=347588#347588<             - List Contribution Web Site -

David d.

Joined: 04 Jul 2011
Posts: 60
Location: Fitzgerald Ga.

Posted: Sun Jul 24, 2011 5:22 pm Post subject: Re: No N number

Do I have this right?

If I go to see about a used LSA, then it is not necessary for it to have an N number, but desirable.

It should have a current air worthiness cert. but if not?

Or if the air worthiness is out of date?



David d

rickofudall

Joined: 19 Sep 2009
Posts: 1392
Location: Udall, KS, USA

Posted: Sun Jul 24, 2011 5:40 pm Post subject: No N number

No, David, you have it wrong. The problem is that it was registered as an LSA but the airworthiness certificate was never issued (I looked up the N number). It is not legal to fly as it is and because it was previously registered as an LSA it can't be legally re-registered as an Amateur built now. So, unless you need spare parts, or you want a really nifty lawn ornament, leave it be.

Rick Girard



On Sun, Jul 24, 2011 at 8:22 PM, SS568 <david(at)paulowniatrees.com (david(at)paulowniatrees.com)> wrote:

  	  Quote: 	
		  --> Kolb-List message posted by: "SS568" <david(at)PaulowniaTrees.com>

 

 Do I have this right?

 If I go to see about a used LSA, then it is not necessary for it to have an N number, but desirable.

 It should have a current air worthiness cert. but if not?

 Or if the air worthiness is out of date?

 

 David d

 

 

 

 

 Read this topic online here:

 

 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=347614#347614

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 ===========

 arget="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-List

 ===========

 http://forums.matronics.com

 ===========

 le, List Admin.

 ="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution

 ===========

 

 

 

 	


-- 

Zulu Delta

Mk IIIC

Thanks, Homer GBYM

It isn't necessary to have relatives in Kansas City in order to be unhappy.

   - Groucho Marx



 

  [quote][b]

_________________
The smallest miracle right in front of you is enough to make you happy....

byoungplumbing(at)gmail.c
Guest

Posted: Sun Jul 24, 2011 7:38 pm Post subject: No N number

guess I have not seen the tail number,,,,  if  it was registered as a lsa,,,  why cant it remain a lsa?   I am  having trouble understanding why it cant remain in the lsa  category,,      if the owner wanted to keep the n  number,,,   why cant a new n number for lsa be issued?

  

 what would have made the previously registered  lsa  airworthiness  invalid?

  

 I have not done any research,,,  but if the  tail number was reserved,,,  and never granted because the inspection was  never done,,,,  could it be a experimental armature built by reserving a  new tail number and having the inspection finalized?   as long as the  documentation is complete to comply with the experimental classification.   or reserve a new n number and have it inspected lsa or  experimental...

  

 if the plane was an old fat  ultralitght,,,    and never registered before the  deadline,,,  I could understand,,,  but once registered lsa it  still should be good.

  

 I dont know what I am missing here.

  

 before I jumped to any conclusions,,,  I would  call get a hold of the builder and find out the details,,   and not  guess at what is going on then call the fisdo and get an answer before I spent  my money.

  

 does an air worthiness ever go out of  date,,,,   or just need an annual  inspection,       or was an faa re registration  letter sent out and ignored...  I believe there was a grace period to  renew,,,    or another time frame to reapply.

  

 confused,,,  which is not as hard as it use to  be.

  

 boyd young

 mkiii utah

  

 quote

  

 Do I have this right?

If I go to see about a used LSA, then it is not  necessary for it to have an N number, but desirable.

It should have a current  air worthiness cert. but if not?

Or if the air worthiness is out of  date?



David





 It is not legal to fly as it is and because it was previously registered as  an LSA it can't be legally re-registered as an Amateur built now.

  

 Richard

  

  

   [quote][b]

rickofudall

Joined: 19 Sep 2009
Posts: 1392
Location: Udall, KS, USA

Posted: Sun Jul 24, 2011 8:01 pm Post subject: No N number

Here's the data from the FAA data base. Aircraft Description   Serial Number D R B 2Type Registration Individual  Manufacturer NameKOLB Certificate Issue Date09/04/2007 ModelFIRESTAR Expiration Date09/30/2012 Type Aircraft Fixed Wing Single-EngineStatus ValidPending Number Change NoneType Engine 2 CycleDate Change Authorized NoneDealer NoMFR Year NoneMode S Code 51066413Fractional Owner NO Registered Owner   Name BOWMAN DANNY R  Street 717 N MORGAN ST   CityMEADVILLE StatePENNSYLVANIA County CRAWFORDZip Code 16335-2122 CountryUNITED STATES  Airworthiness   Engine ManufacturerUnknown ClassificationUnknown   Engine Model UnknownCategory None   A/W DateNone

 



The A/W certificate was never issued. The last date to do that was January 31st 2010. You can't get it now. 

 21.191   Experimental certificates.

Experimental certificates are issued for the following purposes:

 

(i) Operating light-sport aircraft. Operating a light-sport aircraft that—

(1) Has not been issued a U.S. or foreign airworthiness certificate and does not meet the provisions of §103.1 of this chapter. An experimental certificate will not be issued under this paragraph for these aircraft after January 31, 2008; (this was extended to 2010 PROVIDED the aircraft was registered by the 2008 date) 

I've asked both the local FSDO and the Light Sport Branch in Oklahoma City if there is ANY way they will issue an E-AB certificate for one of these aircraft and the answer is always NO.

Rick Girard

 



On Sun, Jul 24, 2011 at 10:35 PM, b young <byoungplumbing(at)gmail.com (byoungplumbing(at)gmail.com)> wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		          guess I have not seen the tail number,,,,  if  it was registered as a lsa,,,  why cant it remain a lsa?   I am  having trouble understanding why it cant remain in the lsa  category,,      if the owner wanted to keep the n  number,,,   why cant a new n number for lsa be issued?

  

 what would have made the previously registered  lsa  airworthiness  invalid?

  

 I have not done any research,,,  but if the  tail number was reserved,,,  and never granted because the inspection was  never done,,,,  could it be a experimental armature built by reserving a  new tail number and having the inspection finalized?   as long as the  documentation is complete to comply with the experimental classification.   or reserve a new n number and have it inspected lsa or  experimental...

  

 if the plane was an old fat  ultralitght,,,    and never registered before the  deadline,,,  I could understand,,,  but once registered lsa it  still should be good.

  

 I dont know what I am missing here.

  

 before I jumped to any conclusions,,,  I would  call get a hold of the builder and find out the details,,   and not  guess at what is going on then call the fisdo and get an answer before I spent  my money.

  

 does an air worthiness ever go out of  date,,,,   or just need an annual  inspection,       or was an faa re registration  letter sent out and ignored...  I believe there was a grace period to  renew,,,    or another time frame to reapply.

  

 confused,,,  which is not as hard as it use to  be.

  

 boyd young

 mkiii utah

  

 quote

  

 Do I have this right?

If I go to see about a used LSA, then it is not  necessary for it to have an N number, but desirable.

It should have a current  air worthiness cert. but if not?

Or if the air worthiness is out of  date?



David





 It is not legal to fly as it is and because it was previously registered as  an LSA it can't be legally re-registered as an Amateur built now.

  

 Richard

  

  

    	  Quote: 	
		  



get="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-List

tp://forums.matronics.com

_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution



	


	


-- 

Zulu Delta

Mk IIIC

Thanks, Homer GBYM

It isn't necessary to have relatives in Kansas City in order to be unhappy.

   - Groucho Marx



 

  [quote][b]

_________________
The smallest miracle right in front of you is enough to make you happy....

rmurrill(at)cox.net
Guest

Posted: Sun Jul 24, 2011 8:14 pm Post subject: No N number

I would not call the local Fisdo...Congress just laid most of them off and  any that are there are probably pretty pissed ...  I have talked  to a  guy at EAA headquarters several times...lost his name, but he is their guru of  odd ball experimental licensing    I think he has seen just about  every non standard scenerio....If it can be fixed he will know how and will make  recommendations as to how to approach local FAA offices.

  

 bob

  

  

    From: b young (byoungplumbing(at)gmail.com) 

 Sent: Sunday, July 24, 2011 8:35 PM

 To: kolb-list(at)matronics.com (kolb-list(at)matronics.com) 

 Subject: Re: Re: No N number



   guess I have not seen the tail number,,,,  if  it was registered as a lsa,,,  why cant it remain a lsa?   I am  having trouble understanding why it cant remain in the lsa  category,,      if the owner wanted to keep the n  number,,,   why cant a new n number for lsa be issued?

  

 what would have made the previously registered  lsa  airworthiness  invalid?

  

 I have not done any research,,,  but if the  tail number was reserved,,,  and never granted because the inspection was  never done,,,,  could it be a experimental armature built by reserving a  new tail number and having the inspection finalized?   as long as the  documentation is complete to comply with the experimental classification.   or reserve a new n number and have it inspected lsa or  experimental...

  

 if the plane was an old fat  ultralitght,,,    and never registered before the  deadline,,,  I could understand,,,  but once registered lsa it still  should be good.

  

 I dont know what I am missing here.

  

 before I jumped to any conclusions,,,  I would  call get a hold of the builder and find out the details,,   and not  guess at what is going on then call the fisdo and get an answer before I spent  my money.

  

 does an air worthiness ever go out of  date,,,,   or just need an annual  inspection,       or was an faa re registration  letter sent out and ignored...  I believe there was a grace period to  renew,,,    or another time frame to reapply.

  

 confused,,,  which is not as hard as it use to  be.

  

 boyd young

 mkiii utah

  

 quote

  

 Do I have this right?

If I go to see about a used LSA, then it is not  necessary for it to have an N number, but desirable.

It should have a current  air worthiness cert. but if not?

Or if the air worthiness is out of  date?



David





 It is not legal to fly as it is and because it was previously registered as  an LSA it can't be legally re-registered as an Amateur built now.

  

 Richard

  

  

[quote]



href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-List

href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com

href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c

[b]

rickofudall

Joined: 19 Sep 2009
Posts: 1392
Location: Udall, KS, USA

Posted: Sun Jul 24, 2011 8:18 pm Post subject: No N number

Boyd, I didn't answer the last part of your question. IF you do not re-register an E-LSA that was issued an airworthiness certificate under the "fat ultralight" provision, i.e. FAR 21.191 i (1) in the time allotted and allow the registration to expire its airworthiness certificate is null and void AND IT CANNOT BE RE-ISSUED (caps for emphasis, not yelling). Why? Because the provision has expired, as have all the forms that serviced that provision. There is no path to reissue an airworthiness certificate, now. It's an unintended consequence of the re-registration scheme. I know Edsel is probably tired of repeating this, but you can check it with him at the Light Sport Branch. I haven't asked in a year, who knows, maybe there's been a miracle and FAA's Legal Dept. has found a way. But that's the answer that I got and it was confirmed by Roger Lee on the Rotax engines forum and several others.  Please don't shoot the messenger. I didn't make the mess, I don't work for the FAA. 



Rick Girard

 

On Sun, Jul 24, 2011 at 10:59 PM, Richard Girard <aslsa.rng(at)gmail.com (aslsa.rng(at)gmail.com)> wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		    Here's the data from the FAA data base. Aircraft Description   Serial Number D R B 2Type Registration Individual  Manufacturer NameKOLB Certificate Issue Date09/04/2007 ModelFIRESTAR Expiration Date09/30/2012 Type Aircraft Fixed Wing Single-EngineStatus ValidPending Number Change NoneType Engine 2 CycleDate Change Authorized NoneDealer NoMFR Year NoneMode S Code 51066413Fractional Owner NO Registered Owner   Name BOWMAN DANNY R  Street 717 N MORGAN ST   CityMEADVILLE StatePENNSYLVANIA County CRAWFORDZip Code 16335-2122 CountryUNITED STATES  Airworthiness   Engine ManufacturerUnknown ClassificationUnknown   Engine Model UnknownCategory None   A/W DateNone

 



The A/W certificate was never issued. The last date to do that was January 31st 2010. You can't get it now. 

   21.191   Experimental certificates.

Experimental certificates are issued for the following purposes:

   

(i) Operating light-sport aircraft. Operating a light-sport aircraft that—

(1) Has not been issued a U.S. or foreign airworthiness certificate and does not meet the provisions of §103.1 of this chapter. An experimental certificate will not be issued under this paragraph for these aircraft after January 31, 2008; (this was extended to 2010 PROVIDED the aircraft was registered by the 2008 date)   

I've asked both the local FSDO and the Light Sport Branch in Oklahoma City if there is ANY way they will issue an E-AB certificate for one of these aircraft and the answer is always NO.

Rick Girard

   

On Sun, Jul 24, 2011 at 10:35 PM, b young <byoungplumbing(at)gmail.com (byoungplumbing(at)gmail.com)> wrote:

   	  Quote: 	
		          guess I have not seen the tail number,,,,  if  it was registered as a lsa,,,  why cant it remain a lsa?   I am  having trouble understanding why it cant remain in the lsa  category,,      if the owner wanted to keep the n  number,,,   why cant a new n number for lsa be issued?

  

 what would have made the previously registered  lsa  airworthiness  invalid?

  

 I have not done any research,,,  but if the  tail number was reserved,,,  and never granted because the inspection was  never done,,,,  could it be a experimental armature built by reserving a  new tail number and having the inspection finalized?   as long as the  documentation is complete to comply with the experimental classification.   or reserve a new n number and have it inspected lsa or  experimental...

  

 if the plane was an old fat  ultralitght,,,    and never registered before the  deadline,,,  I could understand,,,  but once registered lsa it  still should be good.

  

 I dont know what I am missing here.

  

 before I jumped to any conclusions,,,  I would  call get a hold of the builder and find out the details,,   and not  guess at what is going on then call the fisdo and get an answer before I spent  my money.

  

 does an air worthiness ever go out of  date,,,,   or just need an annual  inspection,       or was an faa re registration  letter sent out and ignored...  I believe there was a grace period to  renew,,,    or another time frame to reapply.

  

 confused,,,  which is not as hard as it use to  be.

  

 boyd young

 mkiii utah

  

 quote

  

 Do I have this right?

If I go to see about a used LSA, then it is not  necessary for it to have an N number, but desirable.

It should have a current  air worthiness cert. but if not?

Or if the air worthiness is out of  date?



David





 It is not legal to fly as it is and because it was previously registered as  an LSA it can't be legally re-registered as an Amateur built now.

  

 Richard

  

  

    	  Quote: 	
		  



get="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-List

tp://forums.matronics.com

_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution



	


	






-- 

Zulu Delta

Mk IIIC

Thanks, Homer GBYM

It isn't necessary to have relatives in Kansas City in order to be unhappy.

     - Groucho Marx



 



 	


-- 

Zulu Delta

Mk IIIC

Thanks, Homer GBYM

It isn't necessary to have relatives in Kansas City in order to be unhappy.

    - Groucho Marx



 



  [quote][b]

_________________
The smallest miracle right in front of you is enough to make you happy....

byoungplumbing(at)gmail.c
Guest

Posted: Sun Jul 24, 2011 10:11 pm Post subject: No N number

Please don't shoot the messenger. I didn't make the mess, I don't work for  the FAA.   



 Rick Girard



 	  Quote: 	
		  >>>>>>>>>>>

  
	


 i am not going to shoot anyone,,,,  i just  didn't understand,,,,   it just seemed to me that if it was regisered  lsa,,,,  it could be re registered  lsa..     

  

 it is not my plane,,,   not my  problem..   just trying to understand

  

 thanks/

  

 boyd

  

 do not archive



   [quote][b]

slyck(at)frontiernet.net
Guest

Posted: Mon Jul 25, 2011 4:44 am Post subject: No N number

For sure, that is not a "buy it and fly it" airplane.  -which is the smartest way to get an experimental, just write a checkfor a purty one.  I don't know much about those old and arcane LSA regs, and don't care to, and I imagine more than a few

novices have been burnt buying an experimental that is "registered" but has no AW certificate.

then again, if you are an ambitious lad, you might buy that pile for a song (say $500) strip it down, clean and prime it,

take pictures of all the parts sitting on tables in your garage,  Put them back together, cover and paint and then

register and apply for an AW cert. on YOUR new experimental airplane.

BB



On 25, Jul 2011, at 2:08 AM, b young wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  Please don't shoot the messenger. I didn't make the mess, I don't work for the FAA. 



Rick Girard



 	  Quote: 	
		  >>>>>>>>>>>

 
	


i am not going to shoot anyone,,,,  i just didn't understand,,,,   it just seemed to me that if it was regisered lsa,,,,  it could be re registered  lsa..   

 

it is not my plane,,,   not my problem..   just trying to understand

 

thanks/

 

boyd

 

do not archive



 	  Quote: 	
		  



href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-List

href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com

href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/contribution



	


	


 [quote][b]

Dana

Joined: 13 Dec 2007
Posts: 1047
Location: Connecticut, USA

Posted: Mon Jul 25, 2011 4:48 am Post subject: No N number

The provision to register a plane as	E-LSA was a one time thing, intended to legalize all the "ultralight trainers" and other fat ultralights... but the entire process, including the inspection, had to be.completed by the deadline.

 

 It _may_ be possible to register it as E-AB if you can provide build documentation.  Probably it depends on the local FSDO.  I have a friend who registered a Quicksilver GT-500 as E-AB after flying it as a UL for 20 years... but he really was the original builder.

 

 -Dana



b young <byoungplumbing(at)gmail.com> wrote:[quote]  Please don't shoot the messenger. I didn't make the mess, I don't work for  the FAA.   



 Rick Girard



 	  Quote: 	
		  >>>>>>>>>>>

  
	


 i am not going to shoot anyone,,,,  i just  didn't understand,,,,   it just seemed to me that if it was regisered  lsa,,,,  it could be re registered  lsa..     

  

 it is not my plane,,,   not my  problem..   just trying to understand

  

 thanks/

  

 boyd

  

 do not archive



    	  Quote: 	
		  

	
[b]

David d.

Joined: 04 Jul 2011
Posts: 60
Location: Fitzgerald Ga.

Posted: Mon Jul 25, 2011 7:31 am Post subject: Re: No N number

Greetings again to all



This has been a great exchange of info. I have belonged to many forums(non aviation) and this one has them all beat as to content and attacks on other posters.

Attack the message and not the messenger is an excellent guideline.



Now to be sure that I have this straight:



 1.  If I go to look at a LSA (used). Then before kicking any  tires etc. ask for a N number.  And it associated paperwork.



2.  Then ask for the  AW certificate, and see that it is  in date.



I presume it is not legal to fly without these two.



Is there anything else , other than a bill of sale?



Thanks,

David d.

Thom Riddle

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1597
Location: Buffalo, NY, USA (9G0)

Posted: Mon Jul 25, 2011 7:45 am Post subject: Re: No N number

David,



For a registered aircraft to be legal for flight, the AROW documents must be in the aircraft:

A - Airworthiness certificate

R- Registration certificate

O - Operating Limitations

W- Weight and Balance information (current)



It must also have a current (within last 12 calendar months) condition inspection recorded in the aircraft logbook.

_________________
Thom Riddle
Buffalo, NY (9G0)

Don't worry about old age... it doesn't last very long.
- Anonymous

David d.

Joined: 04 Jul 2011
Posts: 60
Location: Fitzgerald Ga.

Posted: Mon Jul 25, 2011 5:04 pm Post subject: Re: No N number

Thanks to all I have a better understanding of what to look for when looking at a used craft.

This info may have saved me a lot of misery.  And most likely helped others also.

I will keep my AROW close by.

Thanks

David d.

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