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thumbs

Joined: 02 Aug 2011
Posts: 18

Posted: Thu Aug 18, 2011 7:45 am Post subject: Oil and fuel

I posted this on the Rotax forum but didn't get a response.  Pretty sure I will here though. LOL



I have a 97(I think) 503 dual carb Rotax oil injected with about 50 hr on it. As I remember Pennsoil two stroke was the oil to use when I last flew. What are you guys using now? Is it still the best and is it still available?



Also what fuel are your guys using? Are you guys using premium pump gas? Can you get gas without ethanol in it or is that ok anyway?

I read somewhere that one of the causes of engine outs is ethanol in the fuel. Is this right?



thanks for the help

_________________
Gary
Souderton, Pa.
Firestar II

Arksey(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Thu Aug 18, 2011 8:06 am Post subject: Oil and fuel

Garry, 

 I also have a Rotax 503....i use pennsoil air cooled 2cycle oil and 87  octane auto gas....have had no problems and I burn a lot of it...so I dont let  the gas get old...best thing is to fly often....jim swan

  

 Jim Swan Kolb  Firestar ll, 503 Rotax , 6147 Wilcox Rd., Eaton Rapids, Mi 48827 ph 517-663-8488  GPS GPS FOR MY RUNWAY N 42 deg 28.581 W084deg 44.825   

  In a message dated 8/18/2011 11:48:01 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time,  gbthacker(at)hotmail.com writes:

  	  Quote: 	
		  -->    Kolb-List message posted by: "thumbs" <gbthacker(at)hotmail.com>



I    posted this on the Rotax forum but didn't get a response.  Pretty sure I    will here though. LOL



I have a 97(I think) 503 dual carb Rotax oil    injected with about 50 hr on it. As I remember Pennsoil two stroke was the oil    to use when I last flew. What are you guys using now? Is it still the best and    is it still available



--------

Gary

Souderton, Pa.

Firestar    II





Read this topic online    here:



http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=349856#349856

	




 [quote][b]

donaho1(at)verizon.net
Guest

Posted: Thu Aug 18, 2011 8:35 am Post subject: Oil and fuel

Gary, I won`t address what the best oil and fuel combination is, 

because I don`t know that answer. I will tell you what I use. Yes, 

you can still buy Pennzoil air cooled oil, which is what I use. It is 

only sold in 8 oz bottles now, where as it was available in 16 oz 

bottles in the past. I use 92 octane fuel from a local gas station. 

It does contain 10% ethanol. So far so good. I did put a gascolator 

in my fuel system so I could check for water in my fuel tanks. So far 

I have never found any water due to separation in my fuel. I also add 

marine fuel stabilizer to all my fuel. Some people think it is only 

snake oil, but it seems to work for me. For the price, I figure why not.

	On another note, at the end of each flying season I drain all the 

fuel out of my tanks and use it in my weed whips and chain saws. 

(50:1 as I had to remove my oil injector to install my electric 

starter) I just finished that left over fuel yesterday. It was about 

eight months old and still smelled fresh and my small two strokes ran 

fine. Is that due to the stabilizer I add? I like to think so.

	One more note. Last night there was an experimental airplane crash 

near Scranton Pa. about 60 miles from where I live. The private pilot 

was on his first flight in what looked like a Drifter. Witnesses said 

they heard the engine running rough then quit, then restart. The 

plane went down in a wooded area, the pilot was taken to the hospital 

where he passed away. Everyone fly safely out there, including 

myself. http://pahomepage.com/fulltext?nxd_id=196107  Lanny N598LF 

FSII Numidia Pa.

captainron1(at)cox.net
Guest

Posted: Thu Aug 18, 2011 9:27 am Post subject: Oil and fuel

I flew a Cuyana 430 not long ago I used premium unleaded which had 10% ethanol, and also used syntec 2 cycle oil from Walmart. Motor was smooth and nice. 



I have also used it in my 2 cycle Yamaha motorcycle, the synthetic stuff was always much better than the regular mineral oil types. I think the most important thing is the mix ratio, make sure you are never too lean in oil ratio. I in fact I always run it a bit rich in terms oil. I think it was asking for 50/1 I was using 40/1 ratio. Have no idea what the EGT's looked like as I had no instruments. As for the ethanol my unscientific observation is that it did nothing bad, and probably made the motor run a bit cooler as it has less oomph per volume and a higher octane. 

 Ron (at) KFHU



============

---- thumbs <gbthacker(at)hotmail.com> wrote: 



=============




I posted this on the Rotax forum but didn't get a response.  Pretty sure I will here though. LOL



I have a 97(I think) 503 dual carb Rotax oil injected with about 50 hr on it. As I remember Pennsoil two stroke was the oil to use when I last flew. What are you guys using now? Is it still the best and is it still available?



Also what fuel are your guys using? Are you guys using premium pump gas? Can you get gas without ethanol in it or is that ok anyway?

I read somewhere that one of the causes of engine outs is ethanol in the fuel. Is this right?



thanks for the help



--------

Gary

Souderton, Pa.

Firestar II





Read this topic online here:



http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=349856#349856



--

kugelair.com

Dennis Thate

Joined: 18 Nov 2010
Posts: 362

Posted: Thu Aug 18, 2011 10:20 am Post subject: Re: Oil and fuel

My Rotax 503 has always been on ;



California Power Systems    CPS  AV-2  Blend



http://www.rotaxparts.net/scripts/prodView.asp?idproduct=968



The 6 Key Reasons for Rotax 503 Sudden Engine Stoppage: 

1.	Fuel Filter Clogged 

2.	Alcohol in Gasoline 

3.	Old Fuel 

4.	Inadvertent Mixture Leaning at Idle 

5.	Engine Warm Up and Shock Cooling 

6.	Air Filter Clogged

Plugs



NGK BR8ES 

    Kolb Spark Plugs



  Solid Top

       Gap. .016  +/- .002

          Torquing 204 in. lb.

_________________
Both optimists and pessimists contribute to our society. The optimist invents the airplane and the pessimist the parachute. ~Gil Stern

Last edited by Dennis Thate on Fri Aug 19, 2011 3:41 am; edited 3 times in total

HShack(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Thu Aug 18, 2011 10:22 am Post subject: Oil and fuel

Pennsoil is good- I used it for two years, but IMO the very best is  Citgo  Sea & Snow for 2 stroke air cooled.  Hard to get here in SC  but worth the trouble.

  

 On a 503, you are wasting your money if you use premium gas [unless you  have to buy premium to get ethanol-free].  87 octane is fine;  been  using it for over 500 hrs.  Yes,  a 503 will run fine with ethanol in  the gas, but it's effects are insidious.  Over time,  problems  develope.  If you must use it,  I suggest you take measures as  suggested on this forum.

  

 Howard  Shackleford

FS II

SC   

  In a message dated 8/18/2011 11:48:01 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time,  gbthacker(at)hotmail.com writes:

  	  Quote: 	
		  As I    remember Pennsoil two stroke was the oil to use when I last flew. What are you    guys using now? Is it still the best and is it still available?



Also    what fuel are your guys using? Are you guys using premium pump gas? Can you    get gas without ethanol in it or is that ok anyway?

I read somewhere that    one of the causes of engine outs is ethanol in the fuel. Is this    right?



	




 [quote][b]

Dana

Joined: 13 Dec 2007
Posts: 1047
Location: Connecticut, USA

Posted: Thu Aug 18, 2011 12:04 pm Post subject: Oil and fuel

Adding more oil than the manufacturer specifies is actually bad (Cuyuna specified 40:1 BTW so you were fine).  More oil = less fuel/air ratio so the engine is actually running lean... which as we all know is bad.  Kart racers actually use this to tune their engines when there's no time for a jet change.

 

 Of course more oil also means more chance of plug fouling.

 

 I still use the Pennzoil "2 stroke outdoor" (that's what they call it now), but they recently came out with a new "2 stroke aircraft" oil (which may be the same thing in a bigger bottle and with a bigger price).

 

 Whatever you use, it should be marked "API TC" (as Rotax specifies) and not "TC-W3" which is a marine spec, for oils optimized for the cooler running temperatures of a marine engine.

 

 -Dana



"Ron  (at)  KFHU" <captainron1(at)cox.net> wrote:[quote] [quote]--> Kolb-List message posted by: "Ron  (at)  KFHU" <captainron1(at)cox.net>I flew a Cuyana 430 not long ago I used premium unleaded which had 10% ethanol, and also used syntec 2 cycle oil from Walmart. Motor was smooth and nice. I have also used it in my 2 cycle Yamaha motorcycle, the synthetic stuff was always much better than the regular mineral oil types. I think the most important thing is the mix ratio, make sure you are never too lean in oil ratio. I in fact I always run it a bit rich in terms oil. I think it was asking for 50/1 I was using 40/1 ratio. Have no idea what the EGT's looked like as I had no instruments. As for the ethanol my unscientific observation is that it did nothing bad, and probably made the motor run a bit cooler as it has less oomph per volume and a higher octane.  Ron (at) KFHU============---- thumbs <gbthacker(at)hotmail.com> wrote: =============--> Kolb-List message posted by: "thumbs" <gbthacker(at)hotmail.com>I posted this on the Rotax forum but didn't get a response.  Pretty sure I will here though. LOLI have a 97(I think) 503 dual carb Rotax oil injected with about 50 hr on it. As I remember Pennsoil two stroke was the oil to use when I last flew. What are you guys using now? Is it still the best and is it still available?Also what fuel are your guys using? Are you guys using premium pump gas? Can you get gas without ethanol in it or is that ok anyway?I read somewhere that one of the causes of engine outs is ethanol in the fuel. Is this right?thanks for the help--------GarySouderton, Pa.Firestar IIRead this topic online here:

rickofudall

Joined: 19 Sep 2009
Posts: 1392
Location: Udall, KS, USA

Posted: Thu Aug 18, 2011 2:44 pm Post subject: Oil and fuel

As I published a while back after talking to a Shell tech rep, Pennzoil air cooled (Shell owns the Pennzoil brand) is not being produced anymore. The supply that is out there in the supply chain is all there is. The new Shell Two Stroke has Rotax written all over it. Not much doubt about whether its an approved oil. The big thing about API-TC and TC-W3 is that they are not compatible in injection systems. Put together they congeal.

Rick Girard



On Thu, Aug 18, 2011 at 3:01 PM, Dana Hague <d-m-hague(at)comcast.net (d-m-hague(at)comcast.net)> wrote:

  	  Quote: 	
		  Adding more oil than the manufacturer specifies is actually bad (Cuyuna specified 40:1 BTW so you were fine).  More oil = less fuel/air ratio so the engine is actually running lean... which as we all know is bad.  Kart racers actually use this to tune their engines when there's no time for a jet change.

  

 Of course more oil also means more chance of plug fouling.

 

 I still use the Pennzoil "2 stroke outdoor" (that's what they call it now), but they recently came out with a new "2 stroke aircraft" oil (which may be the same thing in a bigger bottle and with a bigger price).

  

 Whatever you use, it should be marked "API TC" (as Rotax specifies) and not "TC-W3" which is a marine spec, for oils optimized for the cooler running temperatures of a marine engine.

 

 -Dana



"Ron  (at)  KFHU" <captainron1(at)cox.net (captainron1(at)cox.net)> wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		     	  Quote: 	
		  --> Kolb-List message posted by: "Ron  (at)  KFHU" <captainron1(at)cox.net (captainron1(at)cox.net)>

I flew a Cuyana 430 not long ago I used premium unleaded which had 10% ethanol, and also used syntec 2 cycle oil from Walmart. Motor was smooth and nice. I have also used it in my 2 cycle Yamaha motorcycle, the synthetic stuff was always much better than the regular mineral oil types. I think the most important thing is the mix ratio, make sure you are never too lean in oil ratio. I in fact I always run it a bit rich in terms oil. I think it was asking for 50/1 I was using 40/1 ratio. Have no idea what the EGT's looked like as I had no instruments. As for the ethanol my unscientific observation is that it did nothing bad, and probably made the motor run a bit cooler as it has less oomph per volume and a higher octane. 

 Ron (at) KFHU============---- thumbs

<gbthacker(at)hotmail.com (gbthacker(at)hotmail.com)> wrote: =============--> Kolb-List message posted by: "thumbs" <gbthacker(at)hotmail.com (gbthacker(at)hotmail.com)>

I posted this on the Rotax forum but didn't get a response.  Pretty sure I will here though. LOLI have a 97(I think) 503 dual carb Rotax oil injected with about 50 hr on it. As I remember Pennsoil two stroke was the oil to use when I last flew. What are you guys using now? Is it still the best and is it still available?

Also what fuel are your guys using? Are you guys using premium pump gas? Can you get gas without ethanol in it or is that ok anyway?I read somewhere that one of the causes of engine outs is ethanol in the fuel. Is this right?

thanks for the help--------GarySouderton, Pa.Firestar IIRead this topic online here:



"courier new,courier">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-List



tp://forums.matronics.com

_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution



	
	




	




-- 

Zulu Delta

Mk IIIC

Thanks, Homer GBYM

It isn't necessary to have relatives in Kansas City in order to be unhappy.

   - Groucho Marx



 

  [quote][b]

_________________
The smallest miracle right in front of you is enough to make you happy....

Richard Pike

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 1671
Location: Blountville, Tennessee

Posted: Thu Aug 18, 2011 4:23 pm Post subject: Re: Oil and fuel

I tried Pennzoil for one season, worked great, but made a bigger mess on the airplane than Phillips Injex, so I went back to that. Been using Injex since 1983, both as pre-mix and as injected with no problems. If you cannot get Pennzoil, I would suggest Phillips Injex. Google it and see what the jet ski and snowmobile guys have to say about it as it is still readily available and the price is not out the roof.



I try to avoid ethanol gas as it dissolves my epoxy gas tanks. If the feds and their subsidies (call your congressman and complain!) eventually end up putting ethanol in all our gas and I cannot get ethanol free gas any longer, then I will have to redo my gas tanks.



I have personally seen premix with ethanol do weird things and cause problems. It is apparently ok to use up to 10% ethanol when you are running injected oil, but I would never use ethanol gas and premix.



Richard Pike

MKIII N420P (420ldPoops)

_________________
Richard Pike
Kolb MKIII N420P (420ldPoops)
Kingsport, TN 3TN0

Forgiving is tough, being forgiven is wonderful, and God's grace really is amazing.

thumbs

Joined: 02 Aug 2011
Posts: 18

Posted: Thu Aug 18, 2011 5:10 pm Post subject: Re: Oil and fuel

Thanks for all the help guys.  I have been out of the loop for a few years.  I am trying to get back into the air and have a lot of questions.



First of all where can I get ethanol free gas?   Is there a brand or a grade that is ethanol free? 



The next question is, as I understand it from the posts, I can use Pennsoil new 2 stroke oil in my oil injected engine using pump gas with ethanol.  The possible problem comes if you premix right?



Since the plane has been sitting for a while one of the things I want to do is replace the fuel lines, filter and prime bulb.  I measured the od of the fuel line and it's 3/8".  Can I use any fuel line?  I was thinking the blue plastic stuff.  I am guessing that would be fine.  If not what should I use?  



I would also like to replace the "equalizer" tube on the carbs.  Maybe not the right term but it is the tube that has the small hole in the bottom and runs from one side of the carb to the other.  Is that a special tube or can I use any 1/8"od  fuel line and put a small hole in the bottom?



I plan to drain the oil res. and put in new oil.  Since the engine not run for a while would it be smart to premix a gallon or so of fuel even with the oil injection system in operation just to make sure the first few minutes of running has plenty of oil at the beginning?  I know to much oil is a no no but I only wanted to use the premix and oil injection for the first 5 or 10 minutes of running on the ground what do you guys think?

thanks again for the help

_________________
Gary
Souderton, Pa.
Firestar II

Dana

Joined: 13 Dec 2007
Posts: 1047
Location: Connecticut, USA

Posted: Thu Aug 18, 2011 5:44 pm Post subject: Oil and fuel

At 08:23 PM 8/18/2011, Richard Pike wrote:



  	  Quote: 	
		  I have personally seen premix with ethanol do weird things and cause problems. It is apparently ok to use up to 10% ethanol when you are running injected oil, but I would never use ethanol gas and premix. 	


 Not that ethanol is a good thing (in gasoline, the Scots do wonderful things with it:)), but I've been forced to run ethanol containing gas, premixed, for 10 years now... 5 years in my Kolb (Cuyuna engine) and 10 years in my PPGs.  I've never had an internal engine failure of any kind (carb troubles and ignition problems, yes) in that time... and I've run premix stored (in sealed containers!) for 3 months and  more.



 The biggest problem with ethanol (don't get me started on the corrupt politics involved!) is the effect on non metallic parts.  Fiberglass fuel tanks made with polyester resin are a big problem.  Rubber parts, (carburetor and fuel pump parts, fuel lines, and engine seals) can also be a problem... though most fuel system parts are alcohol resistant (to an extent) nowadays.  The blue fuel line (to answer thumbs' question) holds up reasonably well, but replace it every two years at the most.



 -Dana

 --

 Whiplash injuries:  Research has shown that the rate of return to work was five times greater amongst those who did not see a lawyer compared with those who did.

    [quote][b]

thumbs

Joined: 02 Aug 2011
Posts: 18

Posted: Fri Aug 19, 2011 11:59 am Post subject: Re: Oil and fuel

rickofudall



Ok then what Pennsoil do I use?  I was over to a shop this afternoon and they had Pennsoil 2 stroke oil in the pints.  I looked for the API and it said TC.  I am guessing that is not compatible with oil injection.

My 503 is oil injected.  What do I use??



thanks

_________________
Gary
Souderton, Pa.
Firestar II

Dana

Joined: 13 Dec 2007
Posts: 1047
Location: Connecticut, USA

Posted: Fri Aug 19, 2011 12:54 pm Post subject: Oil and fuel

API TC (which the Pennzoil is) is what you want, what Rotax specifies, and is compatible with oil injection.  Despite what some manufacturers may put on the label, there is no special oil to use with oil injection.



 -Dana



 At 03:59 PM 8/19/2011, thumbs wrote:

  	  Quote: 	
		  --> Kolb-List message posted by: "thumbs" <gbthacker(at)hotmail.com>



 rickofudall



 Ok then what Pennsoil do I use?  I was over to a shop this afternoon and they had Pennsoil 2 stroke oil in the pints.  I looked for the API and it said TC.  I am guessing that is not compatible with oil injection.

 My 503 is oil injected.  What do I use?? 	


 --

 The dinosours died because they didn't have a space program!  

    [quote][b]

rickofudall

Joined: 19 Sep 2009
Posts: 1392
Location: Udall, KS, USA

Posted: Sat Aug 20, 2011 6:07 am Post subject: Oil and fuel

Gary, You have to know what's in it. If you don't, there are two safe ways to go. Give up the pump and premix, or flush out the reservoir, pump and lines and then replace with the oil of your choice.If it helps any, I've had four quarts of Pennzoil Air Cooled that I've been nursing along in my 582's rotary valve reservoir since Sun n Fun 2007. I'm down to my last quart and a half so I'll have to flush and clean soon.

 



Rick

On Fri, Aug 19, 2011 at 2:59 PM, thumbs <gbthacker(at)hotmail.com (gbthacker(at)hotmail.com)> wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   --> Kolb-List message posted by: "thumbs" <gbthacker(at)hotmail.com (gbthacker(at)hotmail.com)>

 

 rickofudall

 

 Ok then what Pennsoil do I use?  I was over to a shop this afternoon and they had Pennsoil 2 stroke oil in the pints.  I looked for the API and it said TC.  I am guessing that is not compatible with oil injection.

 My 503 is oil injected.  What do I use??

 

 thanks

 

 --------

 Gary

 Souderton, Pa.

 Firestar II

 

 

 

 

 Read this topic online here:

 

 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=350005#350005

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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 arget="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-List

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 ===========

 le, List Admin.

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-- 

Zulu Delta

Mk IIIC

Thanks, Homer GBYM

It isn't necessary to have relatives in Kansas City in order to be unhappy.

   - Groucho Marx



 

  [quote][b]

_________________
The smallest miracle right in front of you is enough to make you happy....

thumbs

Joined: 02 Aug 2011
Posts: 18

Posted: Sat Aug 20, 2011 10:41 am Post subject: Oil and fuel

Rick



Thanks, I am 99.9% sure I have Pennsoil 2 cycle oil in it now.  The reservoir is almost full but it has been in there for about five years.  Is this oil still good?  The reservoir has been closed all the time.  I can get the oil out of the reservoir and the oil line but how do you get it out of the pump?  



 

Gary

Souderton, Pa.



 

 		 	   		  

  [quote][b]

_________________
Gary
Souderton, Pa.
Firestar II

Richard Pike

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 1671
Location: Blountville, Tennessee

Posted: Sat Aug 20, 2011 11:29 am Post subject: Re: Oil and fuel

If I was going to change from one sort of oil to another sort and didn't want them to cross contaminate each other, here's what I would do:



Dump in some premix to safely run the engine, pull the oil pump cable to max and start er up, run at about 3,000 rpm. It will pump out the old oil pretty quick. Watch the oil line from the pump and you will see when it quits pumping  (or just wait for the smoke to subside to normal levels...) and then dump in the new oil, leave the oil pump cable at max. Run the engine again at around 3,000 until it starts to smoke heavily. Shut it down, check for bubbles in the oil line from the pump, if no bubbles, put everything back to normal, and you ought to be good to go with the new oil. 



Richard Pike

MKIII N420P (420ldPoops)

_________________
Richard Pike
Kolb MKIII N420P (420ldPoops)
Kingsport, TN 3TN0

Forgiving is tough, being forgiven is wonderful, and God's grace really is amazing.

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