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Roger Lee

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1464
Location: Tucson, Az.

Posted: Sun Aug 21, 2011 7:06 am Post subject: Oil

Question Posted from another site:



When I turn my engine over by hand (usually after flight to check the oil level) I sometimes get a squeak that seems to come from the gearbox near the propeller hub. It seems to be more pronounced when the engine is warm. Any ideas if this is a problem, or what causes it?



+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++



First response:



I can tell you exactly what this is and you may be skeptical, but we can fix it. It may be a combo of two things, but possibly just one.

First out of curiosity what oil are you using? This is one of the issues. It will be the low ZDDP (a zinc phosphorous compound) additive. This is why motorcycle oil and the better oils are important.



The second issue that adds to this is usually, but not always, a low slipper clutch friction torque.



What causes the squeak is actually a metal to metal rub from lack of ZDDP metal protection and sometimes coupled with low slipper clutch torque from the gearbox.



Let me know on the oil type and we can get you fixed. If you have your slipper clutch torque I would like to know that too.

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Second response:



There is both problems. Get rid of the Pennzoil before you cause any damage. It is a long term issue not one you will see today. The gearbox is  trying to tell you something. You should not be using a straight mineral based oil. It does not have the protection between metal parts in a highly mechanical close tolerance environment that you need. You are also loosing your shear protection which basically means your are loosing some viscosity. Most of the big touring motorcycles and most of the real hard riders won't use straight mineral based Pennzoil. Use a good semi or full synthetic and with the proper levels of ZDDP the squeak will go away, but first you need to get that gearbox re-shimmed. The normal torque I usually see is anywhere from 440-490 in/lbs with the average at 465 in/lbs. Too low a slipper torque will cause damage too.



You do those two things and you will have one happy gearbox and you will be too.

I'll see if we can't get something in a blog on oil soon for everyone so they know what's in an oil and why we can't use car oils and why we need a good motorcycle additive package. There are not so good motorcycle additive packaged oil.



+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++



Final answer:

You need to make up your own mind on oils, but here are a few of my favorites from solid research and field experience.



Oil topics can be a very hot topic to say the least. I might have to sleep with one eye open tonight.   

Full Synthetic: (not in any order) Use with auto fuel only.



Mobile One Racing 4T 10-40W, Mobile 1 V-Twin 20-50W, Amsoil 10-40W or 20-50W

All these full synthetics are good oils and have a good additive package and base stock oil.



Use with 100LL or auto fuel.

Semi Synthetic: Aero Shell Sport Plus 4 10-40W, Golden Spectro 4 10-40W or 20-50W



As of this writing I would personally use Golden Spectro 4 semi synthetic 10-40W or 20-50W because I believe it is a better choice over the Aero Shell Sport Plus 4. Aero Shell Sport Plus 4 was developed in England and it is Mfg. there. I haven't found anyone in the US that knows diddly about its properties. Aero Shell's base stock and low 800 ppm ZDDP additive amongst a few other items cause this not to be as good a choice. 

ZDDP (Zinc Dialkyl-Dithio-Phosphate)  is a sacrificial coating on metal parts to keep parts from going metal to metal. If it is of a too low a ppm then that protection is very poor at best.

I have been told they are going to reformulate next year with a new base stock and up the ZDDP level to around 1500ppm.



From all the research I have done, these oils contain good, high quality base stock oils and sufficient additives to support the engine.

I hope this helps and doesn't throw more mud into your decision.

_________________
Roger Lee
Tucson, Az.
Rotax Instructor & Rotax IRC
Light Sport Repairman
Home 520-574-1080 TRY HOME FIRST
Cell 520-349-7056

Thom Riddle

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1597
Location: Buffalo, NY, USA (9G0)

Posted: Sun Aug 21, 2011 8:27 am Post subject: Re: Oil

Roger,



Why are you recommending against Pennzoil Motorcyle Oil when the latest SI from Rotax, dated 2004 still includes this oil in the recommended group for those using 100LL fuel? There are two other oils in this SI which are listed as NOT recommended, so it is not as if this was an oversight by Rotax.



The Diamond Katana I maintain, which uses 100LL 100% of the time has about 1800 hours on the engine has not had any problems whatsoever. We had the gearbox clutch cleaned and serviced by Lockwood in May. This engine has been running nothing but Pennzoil Motorcylcle oil (APISH) for at least the last four years since I have been doing service on it.

_________________
Thom Riddle
Buffalo, NY (9G0)

Don't worry about old age... it doesn't last very long.
- Anonymous

ollie6a(at)embarqmail.com
Guest

Posted: Sun Aug 21, 2011 8:57 am Post subject: Oil

Thanks Roger, I appreciate your comments.

On Sun, Aug 21, 2011 at 11:06 AM, Roger Lee <ssadiver1(at)yahoo.com> wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   



 Posted from another site:



 When I turn my engine over by hand (usually after flight to check the oil level) I sometimes get a squeak that seems to come from the gearbox near the propeller hub. It seems to be more pronounced when the engine is warm. Any ideas if this is a problem, or what causes it?



 +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++



 First response:



 I can tell you exactly what this is and you may be skeptical, but we can fix it. It may be a combo of two things, but possibly just one.

 First out of curiosity what oil are you using? This is one of the issues. It will be the low ZDDP (a zinc phosphorous compound) additive. This is why motorcycle oil and the better oils are important.



 The second issue that adds to this is usually, but not always, a low slipper clutch friction torque.



 What causes the squeak is actually a metal to metal rub from lack of ZDDP metal protection and sometimes coupled with low slipper clutch torque from the gearbox.



 Let me know on the oil type and we can get you fixed. If you have your slipper clutch torque I would like to know that too.

 +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

 Second response:



 There is both problems. Get rid of the Pennzoil before you cause any damage. It is a long term issue not one you will see today. The gearbox is  trying to tell you something. You should not be using a straight mineral based oil. It does not have the protection between metal parts in a highly mechanical close tolerance environment that you need. You are also loosing your shear protection which basically means your are loosing some viscosity. Most of the big touring motorcycles and most of the real hard riders won't use straight mineral based Pennzoil. Use a good semi or full synthetic and with the proper levels of ZDDP the squeak will go away, but first you need to get that gearbox re-shimmed. The normal torque I usually see is anywhere from 440-490 in/lbs with the average at 465 in/lbs. Too low a slipper torque will cause damage too.



 You do those two things and you will have one happy gearbox and you will be too.

 I'll see if we can't get something in a blog on oil soon for everyone so they know what's in an oil and why we can't use car oils and why we need a good motorcycle additive package. There are not so good motorcycle additive packaged oil.



 +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++



 Final answer:

 You need to make up your own mind on oils, but here are a few of my favorites from solid research and field experience.



 Oil topics can be a very hot topic to say the least. I might have to sleep with one eye open tonight.

 Full Synthetic: (not in any order) Use with auto fuel only.



 Mobile One Racing 4T 10-40W, Mobile 1 V-Twin 20-50W, Amsoil 10-40W or 20-50W

 All these full synthetics are good oils and have a good additive package and base stock oil.



 Use with 100LL or auto fuel.

 Semi Synthetic: Aero Shell Sport Plus 4 10-40W, Golden Spectro 4 10-40W or 20-50W



 As of this writing I would personally use Golden Spectro 4 semi synthetic 10-40W or 20-50W because I believe it is a better choice over the Aero Shell Sport Plus 4. Aero Shell Sport Plus 4 was developed in England and it is Mfg. there. I haven't found anyone in the US that knows diddly about its properties. Aero Shell's base stock and low 800 ppm ZDDP additive amongst a few other items cause this not to be as good a choice.

 ZDDP (Zinc Dialkyl-Dithio-Phosphate)  is a sacrificial coating on metal parts to keep parts from going metal to metal. If it is of a too low a ppm then that protection is very poor at best.

 I have been told they are going to reformulate next year with a new base stock and up the ZDDP level to around 1500ppm.



 >From all the research I have done, these oils contain good, high quality base stock oils and sufficient additives to support the engine.

 I hope this helps and doesn't throw more mud into your decision.



 --------

 Roger Lee

 Tucson, Az.

 Light Sport Repairman - Maintenance Rated

 Rotax Repair Center - Heavy Maint. Rated

 Home 520-574-1080  TRY HOME FIRST

 Cell 520-349-7056





 Read this topic online here:



 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=350108#350108




	


-- 

 	  Quote: 	
		  From Central Florida,

 Ollie

Roger Lee

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1464
Location: Tucson, Az.

Posted: Sun Aug 21, 2011 9:12 am Post subject: Re: Oil

Howdy Thom,



Manuals and testing don't always keep up with current day information. Even the Rotax SI of 2009 is now 2+ years old and they can't test them all. Read about the Pennzoil in the study attached compared to other oils. Pennzoil is towards the bottom in most test and failed some others. I will say it is the cheapest per oz. to buy.

I just found out about Aero Shell Sport Plus 4 2 weeks ago and it will take them months to reformulate.



Most current is:

SI-912-016	 Selection of Suitable Operating Fluids For 912 and 914 (Series) Engines - Rev 2	 4/2009

The 2004 SI Operating fluids is a few behind.



Rotax pretty much wants semi or full synthetic oil use unless it isn't available at all. There are just much better oils to pick from than Pennzoil.



Read the attachment. I was written for Amsoil by an independent tester, but what I want you to see is what all the proper additives do for us, why we need motorcycle oil vs car oil and what the lack of an additive or poor base stock oil can do to us.

Oil Comparison.pdf

Description:

Motorcycle oil comparison

Download

Filename:

Oil Comparison.pdf

Filesize:

2.01 MB

Downloaded:

608 Time(s)

_________________
Roger Lee
Tucson, Az.
Rotax Instructor & Rotax IRC
Light Sport Repairman
Home 520-574-1080 TRY HOME FIRST
Cell 520-349-7056

Thom Riddle

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1597
Location: Buffalo, NY, USA (9G0)

Posted: Sun Aug 21, 2011 10:34 am Post subject: Re: Oil

Thanks for the file, Roger. I'll read it soon.

_________________
Thom Riddle
Buffalo, NY (9G0)

Don't worry about old age... it doesn't last very long.
- Anonymous

Thom Riddle

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1597
Location: Buffalo, NY, USA (9G0)

Posted: Sun Aug 21, 2011 10:47 am Post subject: Re: Oil

Once I opened the file, I realized I had seen and read it before. This study commissioned by AMSOIL rated AMSOIL at the top overall, unsurprisingly. My question for you Roger, is why do you not recommend AMSOIL motorcycle oil if you trust this study? I'm not trying to be argumentative, just trying to understand the rationale for your recommendations based on this study?

_________________
Thom Riddle
Buffalo, NY (9G0)

Don't worry about old age... it doesn't last very long.
- Anonymous

Roger Lee

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1464
Location: Tucson, Az.

Posted: Sun Aug 21, 2011 11:26 am Post subject: Re: Oil

Hi Thom,



I'm not using this to recommend any specific brand of oil only as an educational tool on oils and additives that are suited to our purpose. The decision is up to you once you are armed with the information.

_________________
Roger Lee
Tucson, Az.
Rotax Instructor & Rotax IRC
Light Sport Repairman
Home 520-574-1080 TRY HOME FIRST
Cell 520-349-7056

dashwood

Joined: 24 Jan 2009
Posts: 73
Location: sw ontario canada

Posted: Sun Aug 21, 2011 5:39 pm Post subject: Re: Oil

i read this file a couple years ago and swithched from the mobile one at 250hr  to the amsoil 1040. at the 400+ hr i had to replace the gearbox..( see posts by me) after rebuild i was still using amsoil til i read the revised list from rotax and shell +4 had been added to the top of the list.. i swithed ... the gal/hr fuel rate improved. the static oil temp went down, the egt went down across the board. the steam guage style oil pressure guage started to read a little lower at full rpm ( 70psi down from 75) and was down to the mid 30psi at idle..= became more responsive to rpm. i now do consume about. 1 oz of oil / hr whereas before with the full senthetic i had no consumption between oil changes. this is expensive oil. but mho is the engine is running much better on it. i am turning more than 100hrs / year  in temps from 90deg f summer  to -20 deg f on skis. i burn only prem no lead auto fuel.

_________________
Ross Alexander: CH701 driver 912ul 788tt
It only takes two things to fly, airspeed and money

Roger Lee

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1464
Location: Tucson, Az.

Posted: Sun Aug 21, 2011 6:29 pm Post subject: Re: Oil

None of the top oils will make a gearbox go bad in 400 hrs. Unless you leave oil in too long and do poor maint. and even that would take time. No gearbox should ever go bad at 400 hrs. unless there was a mechanical issue to start with. The top Oils wouldn't cause that. Were you doing 100 hr. slipper clutch torque test? Back then no one knew about the Aero Shell Sport Plus 4 either. Now we do.



Hi Dashwood,



I read some of your old post. It said Amsoil, but Amsoil makes car oil and motorcycle oil. If it was car oil the box would have suffered excessive wear because of the lack of ZDDP amongst other motorcycle additives. You said you had wear on the gears which leads me to suspect the wrong oil or poor slipper clutch torque. You also said you would get kick back which is caused by two things mainly. One is low slipper clutch torque. The other is what Rotax just fixed. The soft Start ignition module and new fly wheel. Your engine fires up at 4 degrees TDC and the new set up fires after TDC. No more kick back as far as the ignition is concerned. If you buy the soft start modules they do help, but to get the full benefit you need the fly wheel, too as this is what actually helps adjust the ignition fire point.



As far as Amsoil motorcycle oil I have been using it in my Honda gold Wings for longer than I can remember and in my Rotax engines for 10 years. At least half my Rotax clients use it and some with 1000 hrs and some with more than 2000 hrs and never an engine, gearbox problem and no oil use between changes. If anyone has any oil use between changes it isn't the oil it is mechanical.

_________________
Roger Lee
Tucson, Az.
Rotax Instructor & Rotax IRC
Light Sport Repairman
Home 520-574-1080 TRY HOME FIRST
Cell 520-349-7056

Roger Lee

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1464
Location: Tucson, Az.

Posted: Sun Aug 21, 2011 6:50 pm Post subject: Re: Oil

For the guys that come to me I will not recommend Aero Shell any longer until it is reformulated. For the guys that need a semi synthetic I will recommend Golden Spectro 4 motorcycle oil (10-40W or 20-50W) It has been around for a long time, rated high and has been tested in high rpm, high performance motorcycles for many years.

_________________
Roger Lee
Tucson, Az.
Rotax Instructor & Rotax IRC
Light Sport Repairman
Home 520-574-1080 TRY HOME FIRST
Cell 520-349-7056

hgmckay

Joined: 23 May 2006
Posts: 397

Posted: Mon Aug 22, 2011 4:29 am Post subject: Oil

Ross,



Am I reading your email correctly? If you are now consuming 1.0 oz of oil

per hour in your 912UL (490 hours TT); if my calculations are correct that

would be just

about 1.42 liters of oil consumption in 50 hours!!!! (normal oil change time

for a 912). That to me is excessive oil consumption.

I have a 912 UL on my Allegro 2000 with just about the same amount of hours

(480 hrs). I use Mobile1 4T Racing oil (from the beginning) and have never

had to add any oil between oil changes (50) hours. Either my math is wrong,

or your number is wrong. A 912 should not consume oil at that rate at 490 

hours.

Hugh G. McKay III, P.E.

Senior Consultant

Worldwide Engineering Inc.

4090 North NC Hwy. 16

Denver, NC 28037



Ph. 704-661-8271

Fax 704-483-5466

email hgmckay(at)bellsouth.net

http://www.wwegeo.com

--

Roger Lee

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1464
Location: Tucson, Az.

Posted: Mon Aug 22, 2011 5:36 am Post subject: Re: Oil

Hi Hugh,



Dashwood said in an earlier post that the engine sat crated for a few years. Then he has unexpected maint and early gearbox repair  and gear wear at 400 hrs.. His engine is using oil. Rotax says if an engine sits more than 2 years to replace all "O" rings through out the engine and who knows how it was started and taken care of the first couple years of its life. I think Dashwood has some mechanical issues that started right up front and if he is still using oil they are continuing issues.

Sorry Dashwood, but there is a root cause and problem here.

_________________
Roger Lee
Tucson, Az.
Rotax Instructor & Rotax IRC
Light Sport Repairman
Home 520-574-1080 TRY HOME FIRST
Cell 520-349-7056

lucien

Joined: 03 Jun 2007
Posts: 721
Location: santa fe, NM

Posted: Wed Aug 24, 2011 6:20 am Post subject: Re: Oil

 	  Roger Lee wrote: 	
		  For the guys that come to me I will not recommend Aero Shell any longer until it is reformulated. For the guys that need a semi synthetic I will recommend Golden Spectro 4 motorcycle oil (10-40W or 20-50W) It has been around for a long time, rated high and has been tested in high rpm, high performance motorcycles for many years. 	




Wait, run that by me again - are you talking about the Aeroshell Sport 4 oil? What's wrong with it and why shouldn't we be using it? 



Thanks sir,



LS

_________________
LS
Titan II SS

Roger Lee

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1464
Location: Tucson, Az.

Posted: Wed Aug 24, 2011 1:21 pm Post subject: Re: Oil

Howdy Lucien,



Read the first post in this thread. No one is saying don't use Aero Shell Sport Plus 4, it is your choice, but there is some info you may want to consider. It is a too light on ZDDP. Read above and it will explain. Dick and John may have a better mouse trap if you do decide to use it.

_________________
Roger Lee
Tucson, Az.
Rotax Instructor & Rotax IRC
Light Sport Repairman
Home 520-574-1080 TRY HOME FIRST
Cell 520-349-7056

dashwood

Joined: 24 Jan 2009
Posts: 73
Location: sw ontario canada

Posted: Wed Aug 24, 2011 6:07 pm Post subject: Re: Oil

amen and grab the popcorn oil topic  threads are the best.

"quoted from roger"Hi Dashwood, 



I read some of your old post. It said Amsoil, but Amsoil makes car oil and motorcycle oil.

  only usedmotorcyclee oil and changedfaithfullyy at 50hrs. 

If it was car oil the box would have suffered excessive wear because of the lack of ZDDP amongst other motorcycle additives. 

You said you had wear on the gears which leads me to suspect the wrong oil or poor slipper clutch torque.

    not sure if i have a slipper clutch.. only saw 2 beveled washers which were badly worn. and the shim was bad too. bearings were not noticeably bad and the gear wear was not detectable by naked eye.. had a large magnify glass to show me the spot. there was excessive end play  caused by beveled washers anshimsms being loose which took out the main shaft seals. an oil leak was the maintenance complaint.  

 You also said you would get kick back which is caused by two things mainly. 

    the kick back thread was in response to someone else posting about hard starts and exesive kickback... my comment actually was the only time i had kickback was on hot shutdown using low grade auto fuel.. premium fuel had no knock or kickback and i was recommending. exclusive use of premium..

 No more kick back as far as the ignition is concerned. If you buy the soft start modules they do help, but to get the full benefit you need the fly wheel, too as this is what actually helps adjust the ignition fire point. 

     knock on aluminumm ... i don't have any problems with starting in any weather conditions. my engine monitoring system has a cold joint somewhere  so if plane left on a windy field for an hour or so. i can't start anything cus the monitor will be black... leave switched on for about 5 to 10 min to warm itself up and it comes to life.. without aux heat in the cabin. a puzzler for a while till i learned about this time thing.



as for the oil consumption my figures are not hard but more of an estimate of a needing to add some now and again. which i didn't have to do before( on amsoil)

i have also concluded that if i try to keep oil level above the half way mark on dip that i will have to add every trip out.. but have very constant levels if i leav it alone between 1/2 and 1/3 . the early history  on this engine is sketchy. but yes it was crated for some time. .. the water pump went out in the first few hours of opps and the inside of the housing and attachment bolts were badly oxidized. not sure about the rubber seals being replaced so i will have to ask the builder/ installer of the engine. the seals seem to be ok cuz the casings are very clean even at 500+hrs now.

am now setting aside time for oil change, carb balance, plug change , and reattachment of cabin heater ... winter is commin.

_________________
Ross Alexander: CH701 driver 912ul 788tt
It only takes two things to fly, airspeed and money

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