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CJ flaps on final

 
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pnicholson



Joined: 04 Jun 2011
Posts: 46
PostPosted: Sun Sep 04, 2011 3:34 pm    Post subject: CJ flaps on final Reply with quote
(apologies in advance for the newbie question)
Having recently picked up my CJ6A from Victoria, BC, I flew back with
an experienced non-nanchang pilot.
He suggested that you should (and did) land not extending the flaps in
times of crosswinds etc. Needless to say, final speeds were high and
the nosewheel banged away.
Even with my modest C-172 time, flaps seem like a damned good idea. I
am getting conflicting information...The RPA checklists are quite
clear in the requirement for flaps; could someone please educate me
(on or off list) on when to flap or not to flap Smile
Thanks,
Philip Nicholson
C-FEPN
(Ontario)

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mbeach(at)hartwigs.com.au
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 04, 2011 3:59 pm    Post subject: CJ flaps on final Reply with quote
Use Flaps on landing, it give you a better approach speed and angle.

REGARDS

MICHAEL BEACH
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brian(at)lloyd.com
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 04, 2011 4:00 pm    Post subject: CJ flaps on final Reply with quote
On Sun, Sep 4, 2011 at 4:32 PM, Philip Nicholson <pednicholson(at)gmail.com (pednicholson(at)gmail.com)> wrote:
Quote:
--> Yak-List message posted by: Philip Nicholson <pednicholson(at)gmail.com (pednicholson(at)gmail.com)>

(apologies in advance for the newbie question)
Having recently picked up my CJ6A from Victoria, BC, I flew back with
an experienced non-nanchang pilot.
He suggested that you should (and did) land not extending the flaps in
times of crosswinds etc.  Needless to say, final speeds were high and
the nosewheel banged away.
Even with my modest C-172 time, flaps seem like a damned good idea. I
am getting conflicting information...The RPA checklists are quite
clear in the requirement for flaps; could someone please educate me
(on or off list) on when to flap or not to flap Smile


You should practice landing the CJ6A with and without flaps. First, go up to altitude and practice stalls with the flaps up and down. (I do them gear-down to simulate landing configuration.) You will find that there is very little difference in stall speed with flaps up or down. The major change is that the flaps increase drag substantially, allowing steeper approaches while still maintaining normal approach speed.


Because stall speed does not change much (only one or two knots -- find out when doing stalls) your flaps-up approach speed will only be one or two knots different than flaps down. (I find it easier to just use the same value, 80kts.) This is a big difference from the behavior of the fowler flaps used on the C-172.


So, should you use the flaps? That is up to you. You certainly won't hurt anything either way. Use them if you would like the increased drag and very slight reduction in stall speed, good things if you are trying to land on a short field. 


One thing you should know, if you lose an engine on downwind and your gear and flaps are down, you will need to be on-the-money if you want to be able to make the runway. Don't expect to fly a square pattern and land on the runway in that case. Best advice then is to retract the flaps until you are sure you have the runway made.


During transition training for the CJ6A, one of the exercises I have the student perform is a power-off descent with gear and flaps up, with gear only down, with flaps only down, and then with both gear and flaps down in order to demonstrate just how much the flaps affect glide. The extra drag of the split flaps turn out to be a surprise to many. Go do this yourself to get more familiar with how the aircraft behaves. Remember, there is no law against finding out yourself how your airplane flies and then fly it accordingly.


Good luck and welcome to CJ ownership.
Quote:
Thanks,
Philip Nicholson
C-FEPN
(Ontario)


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byronmfox(at)gmail.com
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 04, 2011 4:20 pm    Post subject: CJ flaps on final Reply with quote
Having flown my CJ for six of the last ten years from the cross wind capital of California, Gnoss Field, Novato, (a 15-20 kt 90 degree cross most summer afternoons), I subscribe to using flaps irrespective of the cross wind. The flap (singular) on a CJ is really more of a drag device than a lifting surface. The resulting steeper approach feels more controlled to me than a no-flap landing.

I'll be interested to read other opinions. Congratulations!

..Blitz

Sent from my iPhone

On Sep 4, 2011, at 4:32 PM, Philip Nicholson <pednicholson(at)gmail.com> wrote:

Quote:


(apologies in advance for the newbie question)
Having recently picked up my CJ6A from Victoria, BC, I flew back with
an experienced non-nanchang pilot.
He suggested that you should (and did) land not extending the flaps in
times of crosswinds etc. Needless to say, final speeds were high and
the nosewheel banged away.
Even with my modest C-172 time, flaps seem like a damned good idea. I
am getting conflicting information...The RPA checklists are quite
clear in the requirement for flaps; could someone please educate me
(on or off list) on when to flap or not to flap Smile
Thanks,
Philip Nicholson
C-FEPN
(Ontario)






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Dale



Joined: 30 May 2007
Posts: 178
PostPosted: Sun Sep 04, 2011 5:26 pm    Post subject: Re: CJ flaps on final Reply with quote
The easy way to insure whether to use flaps or not is to get a EXPERIENCED
Cj pilot/instructor in the plane and not just any experienced pilot checked out in space shuttles in with you for the rest of your checkout while you still have a plane. My great Ob wan Yak instructor told me that most of the issues like gear ups and blown engines come from the first few hours. I was doing engine out procedures on my 2nd flight. Just any old pilot won't do. I'm sure a lot of people on this list give rides all the time to experienced pilot and at the end of the flight they are amazed with the plane. Don't teach your teacher at the same time your teaching yourself, good way to get killed. Spend a few bucks and hire the right people. You can find one on this site that can help you. This is the best suggestion.

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CD 2.0



Joined: 21 Feb 2011
Posts: 43
PostPosted: Sun Sep 04, 2011 5:30 pm    Post subject: Re: CJ flaps on final Reply with quote
Philip,

it depends on the amount of crosswind… Using flaps during a serious crosswind will increase ground effect and drift after touch down… so although it’s against normal written procedure… reducing the amount of flaps or not adding flaps at all, just according with the amount of crosswind… is the preferred way to go for many. Flaps on a CJ6 will minimally decrease stall speeds.

Try to do some crosswind practice with an instructor on the type, as it could be a bit tricky at first.

Carl
pnicholson wrote:
(apologies in advance for the newbie question)
Having recently picked up my CJ6A from Victoria, BC, I flew back with
an experienced non-nanchang pilot.
He suggested that you should (and did) land not extending the flaps in
times of crosswinds etc. Needless to say, final speeds were high and
the nosewheel banged away.
Even with my modest C-172 time, flaps seem like a damned good idea. I
am getting conflicting information...The RPA checklists are quite
clear in the requirement for flaps; could someone please educate me
(on or off list) on when to flap or not to flap Smile
Thanks,
Philip Nicholson
C-FEPN
(Ontario)


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dsavarese0812(at)bellsout
Guest
PostPosted: Sun Sep 04, 2011 6:42 pm    Post subject: CJ flaps on final Reply with quote
Carl,
Regarding your comment ".... reducing the amount of flaps" on both the
CJ and the Yak 52 is not an option. Flaps on both of these airplanes
have two positions; full up or full down. There is no in between.

A. Dennis Savarese
334-285-6263
334-546-8182 (cell)
Skype: Yakguy1
www.yak-52.com
On 9/4/2011 8:30 PM, CD 2.0 wrote:
Quote:


Philip,

it depends on the amount of crosswind… Using flaps during a serious crosswind will increase ground effect and drift after touch down… so although it’s against normal written procedure… reducing the amount of flaps or not adding flaps at all, just according with the amount of crosswind… is the preferred way to go for many. Flaps on a CJ6 will minimally decrease stall speeds.

Try to do some crosswind practice with an instructor on the type, as it could be a bit tricky at first.

Carl

pnicholson wrote:
> (apologies in advance for the newbie question)
> Having recently picked up my CJ6A from Victoria, BC, I flew back with
> an experienced non-nanchang pilot.
> He suggested that you should (and did) land not extending the flaps in
> times of crosswinds etc. Needless to say, final speeds were high and
> the nosewheel banged away.
> Even with my modest C-172 time, flaps seem like a damned good idea. I
> am getting conflicting information...The RPA checklists are quite
> clear in the requirement for flaps; could someone please educate me
> (on or off list) on when to flap or not to flap Smile
> Thanks,
> Philip Nicholson
> C-FEPN
> (Ontario)


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CD 2.0



Joined: 21 Feb 2011
Posts: 43
PostPosted: Sun Sep 04, 2011 7:42 pm    Post subject: Re: CJ flaps on final Reply with quote
Dennis, thanks for being my grammar instructor today ... I'll be more clear next time. Let me include the entire statement with some additional commentary in parenthesis, so it's easier to understand what I meant:

.... so although it’s against normal written procedure [on most aircraft]… reducing the amount of flaps [on most aircraft] or not adding flaps at all [on Cj's, Yaks..], just according with the amount of crosswind… is the preferred way to go for many.

Carl

dsavarese0812(at)bellsout wrote:
Carl,
Regarding your comment ".... reducing the amount of flaps" on both the
CJ and the Yak 52 is not an option. Flaps on both of these airplanes
have two positions; full up or full down. There is no in between.

A. Dennis Savarese
334-285-6263
334-546-8182 (cell)
Skype: Yakguy1
www.yak-52.com
On 9/4/2011 8:30 PM, CD 2.0 wrote:
Quote:


Philip,

it depends on the amount of crosswind… Using flaps during a serious crosswind will increase ground effect and drift after touch down… so although it’s against normal written procedure… reducing the amount of flaps or not adding flaps at all, just according with the amount of crosswind… is the preferred way to go for many. Flaps on a CJ6 will minimally decrease stall speeds.

Try to do some crosswind practice with an instructor on the type, as it could be a bit tricky at first.

Carl

pnicholson wrote:
> (apologies in advance for the newbie question)
> Having recently picked up my CJ6A from Victoria, BC, I flew back with
> an experienced non-nanchang pilot.
> He suggested that you should (and did) land not extending the flaps in
> times of crosswinds etc. Needless to say, final speeds were high and
> the nosewheel banged away.
> Even with my modest C-172 time, flaps seem like a damned good idea. I
> am getting conflicting information...The RPA checklists are quite
> clear in the requirement for flaps; could someone please educate me
> (on or off list) on when to flap or not to flap Smile
> Thanks,
> Philip Nicholson
> C-FEPN
> (Ontario)


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dsavarese0812(at)bellsout
Guest
PostPosted: Mon Sep 05, 2011 3:42 am    Post subject: CJ flaps on final Reply with quote
I apologize if I came across that way Carl. It wasn't intentional.

A. Dennis Savarese
334-285-6263
334-546-8182 (cell)
Skype: Yakguy1
www.yak-52.com
On 9/4/2011 10:43 PM, CD 2.0 wrote:
Quote:


Dennis, thanks for being my grammar instructor today ... I'll be more clear next time. Let me include the entire statement with some additional commentary in parenthesis, so it's easier to understand what I meant:

.... so although it’s against normal written procedure [on most aircraft]… reducing the amount of flaps [on most aircraft] or not adding flaps at all [on Cj's, Yaks..], just according with the amount of crosswind… is the preferred way to go for many.

Carl
dsavarese0812(at)bellsout wrote:
> Carl,
> Regarding your comment ".... reducing the amount of flaps" on both the
> CJ and the Yak 52 is not an option. Flaps on both of these airplanes
> have two positions; full up or full down. There is no in between.
>
> A. Dennis Savarese
> 334-285-6263
> 334-546-8182 (cell)
> Skype: Yakguy1
> www.yak-52.com
> On 9/4/2011 8:30 PM, CD 2.0 wrote:
>
>>
>>
>> Philip,
>>
>> it depends on the amount of crosswind… Using flaps during a serious crosswind will increase ground effect and drift after touch down… so although it’s against normal written procedure… reducing the amount of flaps or not adding flaps at all, just according with the amount of crosswind… is the preferred way to go for many. Flaps on a CJ6 will minimally decrease stall speeds.
>>
>> Try to do some crosswind practice with an instructor on the type, as it could be a bit tricky at first.
>>
>> Carl
>>
>>
>>
>> pnicholson wrote:
>>> (apologies in advance for the newbie question)
>>> Having recently picked up my CJ6A from Victoria, BC, I flew back with
>>> an experienced non-nanchang pilot.
>>> He suggested that you should (and did) land not extending the flaps in
>>> times of crosswinds etc. Needless to say, final speeds were high and
>>> the nosewheel banged away.
>>> Even with my modest C-172 time, flaps seem like a damned good idea. I
>>> am getting conflicting information...The RPA checklists are quite
>>> clear in the requirement for flaps; could someone please educate me
>>> (on or off list) on when to flap or not to flap Smile
>>> Thanks,
>>> Philip Nicholson
>>> C-FEPN
>>> (Ontario)
>>
>>
>>
>> Read this topic online here:
>>
>> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=351434#351434
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>


Read this topic online here:

http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=351440#351440



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cjpilot710(at)aol.com
Guest
PostPosted: Mon Sep 05, 2011 5:11 am    Post subject: CJ flaps on final Reply with quote
This is what I hate about printed or text messages. Words don't always and can't emulate the intent nor manner of the writer. I know both you guys. There is not factious cell in either one of you.

Anyway my "take" on crosswind and flaps, with split flaps on the CJ, there not a whole lot of difference in stall speed. But of course there is lots of drag. To me, this means when the power comes off, the RATE of deceleration is a lot faster than no flap. That's good thing. The reason one appears to "float" with no flap is not so much due to ground effect, a slow rate of deceleration with the lack of drag. That exposes one to the drift of a cross wind longer. Ground effect does play a part, but its the same. GE comes into effect at 1/2 the wing span of any aircraft.  The only flaps that increase its effect substantially are the high lift types are Flower and double and triple slotted types.

The other aspect is the deck angle and approach path of your approach. With zero flap every thing is flatter with the same speeds. Its as simple as that. There has been a lot of good advice posted here already. Practice is the common thread. A high % of ac accident happen in the low speed part of the envelop of any aircraft design. As a chief checkpilot for a CAP wing, my "big thing" was checking the pilots skill in all realms in the low speed envelop. I made sure the other checkpilots did as well. We had a very good safety record. A lot of times and time and again on this list, we've pointed out the importance of training and practice. Just look at the Wrights brothers. How many times did they "practice" before they got it right?

Jim "Pappy" Goolsby

In a message dated 9/5/2011 7:43:02 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, dsavarese0812(at)bellsouth.net writes:
Quote:
--> Yak-List message posted by: "A. Dennis Savarese" <dsavarese0812(at)bellsouth.net>

I apologize if I came across that way Carl. It wasn't intentional.

A. Dennis Savarese
334-285-6263
334-546-8182 (cell)
Skype: Yakguy1
www.yak-52.com
On 9/4/2011 10:43 PM, CD 2.0 wrote:
Quote:
--> Yak-List message posted by: "CD 2.0"<dbowie2007(at)hotmail.com>

Dennis, thanks for being my grammar instructor today ... I'll be more clear next time. Let me include the entire statement with some additional commentary in parenthesis, so it's easier to understand what I meant:

.... so although it’s against normal written procedure [on most aircraft]… reducing the amount of flaps [on most aircraft] or not adding flaps at all [on Cj's, Yaks..], just according with the amount of crosswind… is the preferred way to go for many.

Carl
dsavarese0812(at)bellsout wrote:
> Carl,
> Regarding your comment ".... reducing the amount of flaps" on both the
> CJ and the Yak 52 is not an option. Flaps on both of these airplanes
> have two positions; full up or full down. There is no in between.
>
> A. Dennis Savarese
> 334-285-6263
> 334-546-8182 (cell)
> Skype: Yakguy1
> www.yak-52.com
> On 9/4/2011 8:30 PM, CD 2.0 wrote:
>
>>
>>
>>   Philip,
>>
>> it depends on the amount of crosswind… Using flaps during a serious crosswind will increase ground effect and drift after touch down… so although it’s against normal written procedure… reducing the amount of flaps or not adding flaps at all, just according with the amount of crosswind… is the preferred way to go for many. Flaps on a CJ6 will minimally decrease stall speeds.
>>
>> Try to do some crosswind practice with an instructor on the type, as it could be a bit tricky at first.
>>
>> Carl
>>
>>
>>
>>  pnicholson wrote:
>>> (apologies in advance for the newbie question)
>>> Having recently picked up my CJ6A from Victoria, BC, I flew back with
>>> an experienced non-nanchang pilot.
>>> He suggested that you should (and did) land not extending the flaps in
>>> times of crosswinds etc. Needless to say, final speeds were high and
>>> the nosewheel banged away.
>>> Even with my modest C-172 time, flaps seem like a damned good idea. I
>>> am getting conflicting information...The RPA checklists are quite
>>> clear in the requirement for flaps; could someone please educate me
>>> (on or off list) on when to flap or not to flap Smile
>>> Thanks,
>>> Philip Nicholson
>>> C-FEPN
>>> (Ontario)
>>
>>
>>
>> Read this topic online here:
>>
>> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=351434#351434
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>


Read this topic online here:

http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=351440#351440


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CD 2.0



Joined: 21 Feb 2011
Posts: 43
PostPosted: Mon Sep 05, 2011 11:28 pm    Post subject: Re: CJ flaps on final Reply with quote
Dennis, no big deal.... : ) The wording of my post was a bit unclear and it could be confusing. thanks for the input.

Carl

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CD 2.0



Joined: 21 Feb 2011
Posts: 43
PostPosted: Mon Sep 05, 2011 11:46 pm    Post subject: Re: CJ flaps on final Reply with quote
Jim, thank you for your comment. I have the most admiration for Dennis and hearing from him is always welcome.

I agree, a great pilot is made by a great flight instructor and a flight instructor is responsible for giving that solid base to a student. A good instructor isn’t born over night.... a good CFI, garners more skill and experience in putting things across clearly to the student but there must be some underlying qualities... I will say these include a passion for aviation, being willing to teach and a desire to share that love of flying with others.

Carl

cjpilot710(at)aol.com wrote:
This is what I hate about printed or text messages. Words don't always and can't emulate the intent nor manner of the writer. I know both you guys. There is not factious cell in either one of you.

Anyway my "take" on crosswind and flaps, with split flaps on the CJ, there not a whole lot of difference in stall speed. But of course there is lots of drag. To me, this means when the power comes off, the RATE of deceleration is a lot faster than no flap. That's good thing. The reason one appears to "float" with no flap is not so much due to ground effect, a slow rate of deceleration with the lack of drag. That exposes one to the drift of a cross wind longer. Ground effect does play a part, but its the same. GE comes into effect at 1/2 the wing span of any aircraft.ďż˝ The only flaps that increase its effect substantially are the high lift types are Flower and double and triple slotted types.

The other aspect is the deck angle and approach path of your approach. With zero flap every thing is flatter with the same speeds. Its as simple as that. There has been a lot of good advice posted here already. Practice is the common thread. A high % of ac accident happen in the low speed part of the envelop of any aircraft design. As a chief checkpilot for a CAP wing, my "big thing" was checking the pilots skill in all realms in the low speed envelop. I made sure the other checkpilots did as well. We had a very good safety record. A lot of times and time and again on this list, we've pointed out the importance of training and practice. Just look at the Wrights brothers. How many times did they "practice" before they got it right?

Jim "Pappy" Goolsby



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