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Soob temps

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smokey_bear_40220(at)yaho
Guest

Posted: Wed May 17, 2006 9:42 pm Post subject: Soob temps

Hi John and Rick,



It is my understanding from the experience of others

here that you are OK up to 788 C/1450 F EGT.  Rick is

one of our GURU's for SS valves and other engine

improvements that keep them running, so I follow his

advice.  I still have the origional valves, but I

think it is good to stay 1450 with the SS valves too.



Is that right Rick?



Oh, we take the EGT reading about 1" or 2.5 cm on the

pipe below the heads.  Different results for different

locations.



I try to run 1450 F/788 C in cruise and can usually

lean a bit to get that.  Today my Fuel/Air gauge was

showing on peak at a little less EGT, but full rich. 

Probably a lack of use problem giving some gauge

error, but I left it run full rich just in case. 

Usually my F/A gauge shows rich at 1450, so I feel

safe to lean to it.



Your 760 EGT might carbon you up a bit, if you use

that for cruise.  Seems a touch rich, but you will

know from experience.



I have to lean mine for taxi and runup or it shudders.

 That is because I have a rich idle port setting,

since there is no choke for winter ops.



On my engine, I can take off at full power, full rich

and see well under 1400 F.  When I reduce power the

EGT's rise as I reduce thru 4000 RPM, then falls

again.  I haven't found a prop/power setting that will

keep me under 1450 in cruise in a range of 3600-4200

rpm.  Maybe with more time I will.  The engine isn't

broken in until 300 hrs.



I rebuilt my CAP prop and it works better than new,

but now its smoothest RPM is about 3200 instead of the

3900 I had before.  Since 3200 engine rpm gives me a

good egt, I cruise there.  I set 5.5 GPH on the flow

meter leaned to 1450 and use that for cruise speed.



Until I have some more anti-drag devices installed, it

feels like the plane is working too hard for little

more speed above those power settings.  This is good

for 85-95 knots or 98 to 110 mph depending on

thermals.  



Sounds like your water is right on, but the oil is

just a bit cool.  That is the better fault to have. 

  I think if you could keep the oil at 95, that

would be better.



Took me 6 years to build mine.  Took you 10 years to

design, create and then build yours.  The Wright

Brothers built theirs in less time, but I think we out

fly them by a bit.



Kurt S.



--- John Anderson <janderson412(at)hotmail.com> wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   1400F is not too bad is it Kurt? I'm 760-780c and

 water 90c, oil 95 on climb and 80 cruise.

 Took me 10 years to build mine, slow eh....John


	


__________________________________________________

wingsdown(at)comcast.net
Guest

Posted: Thu May 18, 2006 5:24 pm Post subject: Soob temps

Yes Sir that is what I would do. I think with the SS you can go higher

but I believe the limitation will shift to the heads and seats at that

point. Plenty power available at that for cruise. I think 1500 is OK for

brief full power climb outs. Seems the turbo 81 IMHO is sensitive to

rich/lean situations at least with present intake and fuel delivery

limitations. Now John A. may be working right past that now. It does not

like rich condition in either taxi or full power settings. I taxied at

900 to 1000F. Now full power was also tricky. At very lean 1550 1600

power up the yingyang. Go beyond that either in full power or trying

lean of peak and things can get real quiet. Not good quiet either. Don't

recommend it unless it's the granite cloud your trying to clear, but on

the other hand leave her to rich in cruise and the same loading problems

as before but bigger problem. I do believe in running LOP, but I could

never get a repeatable trusted setting. For those not familiar with this

procedure do some searches and read up, its worth the time. Yes you can

run cooler at a leaner cruise setting, not for full power, for cruise.

OK got to go, dinner calls.



Rick 



--

janderson412(at)hotmail.c
Guest

Posted: Thu May 18, 2006 5:53 pm Post subject: Soob temps

So Rick and Kurt, are you saying richer gives higher EGT or leaner? I always 

though being too lean gave higher temps? I recently did a linier enrichment 

on the EMC as the plugs looked a bit lean? John





From:  "wingsdown" <wingsdown(at)comcast.net>

Reply-To:  kitfox-list(at)matronics.com

To:  <kitfox-list(at)matronics.com>

Subject:  RE: Soob temps

Date:  Thu, 18 May 2006 18:22:40 -0700




Yes Sir that is what I would do. I think with the SS you can go higher

but I believe the limitation will shift to the heads and seats at that

point. Plenty power available at that for cruise. I think 1500 is OK for

brief full power climb outs. Seems the turbo 81 IMHO is sensitive to

rich/lean situations at least with present intake and fuel delivery

limitations. Now John A. may be working right past that now. It does not

like rich condition in either taxi or full power settings. I taxied at

900 to 1000F. Now full power was also tricky. At very lean 1550 1600

power up the yingyang. Go beyond that either in full power or trying

lean of peak and things can get real quiet. Not good quiet either. Don't

recommend it unless it's the granite cloud your trying to clear, but on

the other hand leave her to rich in cruise and the same loading problems

as before but bigger problem. I do believe in running LOP, but I could

never get a repeatable trusted setting. For those not familiar with this

procedure do some searches and read up, its worth the time. Yes you can

run cooler at a leaner cruise setting, not for full power, for cruise.

OK got to go, dinner calls.



Rick



--

wingsdown(at)comcast.net
Guest

Posted: Thu May 18, 2006 7:33 pm Post subject: Soob temps

Richer can give higher temps but not in the usual use as in full rich

for take off. Which in itself is a mis nomer. Full rich is what a

particular engine manufacturer says is and sets at full rich. Not trying

to word smith, but I doubt most carbs or TBIs for that matter are set

full rich. Full rich is the point of enrichment at a particular power

setting that results in acceptable or desirable EGTs. To answer directly

yes richer yields higher temps at the same manifold pressure because it

allows the engine to make more power. Only not true if you run rich of

peak which will in turn reduce temps, but IMHO cause undesirable effects

on the engine such as sooting, cylinder wash down, oil dilution, more

wear and such. Again full rich is a magic place for full power settings

that allows cooling while still not fouling the plugs and make optimum

power. Its kind of complicated. But I would suggest safer to run to rich

on full power than run to lean. Clear as mud.



Rick



--

janderson412(at)hotmail.c
Guest

Posted: Thu May 18, 2006 9:36 pm Post subject: Soob temps

Interfaced to the ECU I have a LED interface which gives an O2 value and the 

lambda indication is spot on. All over to the little mad man in that black 

box, I'll have to talk to his master....John





From:  "wingsdown" <wingsdown(at)comcast.net>

Reply-To:  kitfox-list(at)matronics.com

To:  <kitfox-list(at)matronics.com>

Subject:  RE: Soob temps

Date:  Thu, 18 May 2006 20:31:09 -0700




Richer can give higher temps but not in the usual use as in full rich

for take off. Which in itself is a mis nomer. Full rich is what a

particular engine manufacturer says is and sets at full rich. Not trying

to word smith, but I doubt most carbs or TBIs for that matter are set

full rich. Full rich is the point of enrichment at a particular power

setting that results in acceptable or desirable EGTs. To answer directly

yes richer yields higher temps at the same manifold pressure because it

allows the engine to make more power. Only not true if you run rich of

peak which will in turn reduce temps, but IMHO cause undesirable effects

on the engine such as sooting, cylinder wash down, oil dilution, more

wear and such. Again full rich is a magic place for full power settings

that allows cooling while still not fouling the plugs and make optimum

power. Its kind of complicated. But I would suggest safer to run to rich

on full power than run to lean. Clear as mud.



Rick



--

smokey_bear_40220(at)yaho
Guest

Posted: Sun May 21, 2006 1:03 pm Post subject: Soob temps

So John and Rick,



If I've got this right, leaning from whatever mixture

all the way rich gives, you should see the EGTs rise,

peak, then cool a bit before you get a rough runner,

or silence.



On mine, I can lean toward peak with temps increasing

at low and high power, but not at mid to high cruise. 

There I will exceed 1450 EGT even "full rich".  I can

only lean past peak to lower EGTs in the higher cruise

range.  There is not enough enrichment before peak

available here for me to stay below 1450 on the rich

side.



I have not been flying lean of peak, but maybe should

try it on Rick's advice.  I know the engine will run

there from my gascolator drain blow-out incident. 

Lean of peak, I might keep the EGT's down, save some

gas and better lubrication too.  Then I can use these

power settings in flight.  I might even hit my goal of

100 knots on 6 GPH or less.



But as Rick said, will it be stable enough to use? 

I'd need to test it to see if I can keep LOP both

smooth and cool.  So far I have had 4 incidents where

I exceeded 1450 to as high as 1600 EGT's in flight. 

Not for long, but I would rather avoid any more.  This

is where I wish I had an EGT limit warning system so I

can catch it sooner.



Kurt S.  S-5 NSI/turbo



--- John Anderson <janderson412(at)hotmail.com> wrote:

 

 	  Quote: 	
		   Interfaced to the ECU I have a LED interface which

 gives an O2 value and the 

 lambda indication is spot on. All over to the little

 mad man in that black 

 box, I'll have to talk to his master....John


	




 	  Quote: 	
		   From:  "wingsdown" <wingsdown(at)comcast.net>

 Reply-To:  kitfox-list(at)matronics.com

 

 Richer can give higher temps but not in the usual

 use as in full rich

 for take off. Which in itself is a mis nomer. Full

 rich is what a

 particular engine manufacturer says is and sets at

 full rich. Not trying

 to word smith, but I doubt most carbs or TBIs for

 that matter are set

 full rich. Full rich is the point of enrichment at a

 particular power

 setting that results in acceptable or desirable

 EGTs. To answer directly

 yes richer yields higher temps at the same manifold

 pressure because it

 allows the engine to make more power. Only not true

 if you run rich of

 peak which will in turn reduce temps, but IMHO cause

 undesirable effects

 on the engine such as sooting, cylinder wash down,

 oil dilution, more

 wear and such. Again full rich is a magic place for

 full power settings

 that allows cooling while still not fouling the

 plugs and make optimum

 power. Its kind of complicated. But I would suggest

 safer to run to rich

 on full power than run to lean. Clear as mud.

 

 Rick


	


__________________________________________________

wingsdown(at)comcast.net
Guest

Posted: Sun May 21, 2006 1:33 pm Post subject: Soob temps

Not exactly from  whatever all the way rich, actually from cruise

setting all the way lean through peak and continue leaning Until rough

and back about 50F. I would strongly suggest reading the article on the

avweb web site. Its been awhile but I bet its still there. It's a simple

comcept but some how very difficult to explain. Just a couple of quotes

I had save ref the subject. LOP is not for full power settings. 

"The Lyc rep might want to check back with his engineering dept.  Their

more recent comments have been that properly instrumented a Lycoming

engine could be easily and safely run lean of peak.  The old standby was

always "50 F degrees" whether ROP for high power operation or LOP for

reduced power.  Actually testing has proven that 50 F ROP is the realm

in which detonation is most likely so when running ROP it is safer to be

100-125 F degrees ROP."

"Generally, a liquid cooled engine can run 10 to 15% leaner on EGT than

an air cooled counterpart.  The lower head temperature (200 F. vs. 450

F.) is the main reason.  An air cooled engine is limited to

approximately 1550 to 1600 F., whereas a liquid engine can go as high as

1725 for short bursts." 



Rick  



--

smokey_bear_40220(at)yaho
Guest

Posted: Mon May 22, 2006 9:18 am Post subject: Soob temps

Rick,



I read the LOP info long ago before I had a plane to

use it on, so I need to re-read it and get up to

speed.  Thanks for reminding me.



The liquid cooled limit you gave makes me feel better

about my excursions above 1450.  Though I dont intend

to go there again, it will probably happen and it is

good to have an engine that gives me some slack.



But no Fox flying again for awhile.  I am in Panama

and headed south. Please keep the items I requested

handy and Ill pay for them when I get back.



At least I can keep up with the list down here when

the net is up.  Today it is down at the hotel, so I am

at a realtors house using dialup.... You do what you

have to. 



Kurt S.



...An air cooled engine is limited to

 	  Quote: 	
		   approximately 1550 to 1600 F., whereas a liquid

 engine can go as high as 1725 for short bursts." 

 

 Rick


	


__________________________________________________

akfotoman

Joined: 19 Apr 2006
Posts: 120
Location: Anchorage, Alaska

Posted: Mon May 22, 2006 9:27 am Post subject: Soob temps

There should be no need to take a two-cyle engine above 1150 F if you are

using in-flight mixture control. 



I seized a 582 due to a water cooling issue (the radiator, slung under the

craft, was full of sand from a sandbar landing and caused over heating) and

I was able to keep the EGT at 1050 my adjusting the mixture inflight. Only

one cylinder was scored and the rest of engine looked like new despite the

over heating coolant issue.



I replaced the pistons and bored 1 over stock spec. The engine has 114 hours

on it since and runs fine.

Rob



They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety

deserve neither liberty nor safety." - Benjamin Franklin

--

_________________
Have cameras, will travel!

wingsdown(at)comcast.net
Guest

Posted: Mon May 22, 2006 1:35 pm Post subject: Soob temps

Already set aside my friend, not a problem. Does your room have the same

hot and cold running water I did, hot,cold,hot,cold,hot,cold, but still

better than the tent showers . Stay cool.



Rick



--

janderson412(at)hotmail.c
Guest

Posted: Mon May 22, 2006 3:02 pm Post subject: Soob temps

Well, my radiator exit cowl didn't last long(2hours), it split in two! No 

harm done, a vibration set up and got worse, I was just about to look for 

some where to put down (plenty of good ag strips in my area) when there was 

a slight bump and it went smooth. I was scanning the engine instruments and 

all looked ok thinking the worst like spinner, prop, drive belt etc. Then my 

safety plane buddy called up and told me that the cowl was hanging down but 

landed ok and no damage done. I'm amazed at the amount of turbulence that 

there must be in the area behind the cowl as it was constructed out of .040" 

aviation grade alclad and had a doubler riveted across the bottom too. Two 

LAMEs checked it...Test flown without it and temps still ok (for winter 

anyway) Thinking of adding some VGs along the bottom of the main cowl?  John 

A.



_________________________________________________________________

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