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Thom Riddle

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1597
Location: Buffalo, NY, USA (9G0)

Posted: Sun Sep 11, 2011 2:46 pm Post subject: rain tolerant prop

I flew the SS to Bob Bean's field around noon today and from there we both flew our Kolbs to D52 Geneseo corn roast. En route we saw a t-storm just to the west of our destination and caught a wee bit of rain on the way. 1/2 hour or so after landing the T-storm moved onto the field so the hosts were magnanimous helping push our Kolbs into their big hangar until the T-storm passed. We had a very good lunch but the turn out was poor due Wx. I checked radar and it looked like a short break before the next one would arrive, so we headed back north to BB's place and flew in the light rain most of the way. with BB's help I topped my tank and headed west back towrd Buffalo with expectations of having to take circuitous route around the second t-storm. Fortunately, it stayed south of my intended route which is good because it was lightening a good bit. Still I had to fly for at least another 1/2 hour in the rain before passing the storm. 



As I did my post flight inspection I noticed some deterioration in the outermost 8" or so of the leading edge, which did not surprise me. It was not too bad and I will dress it with a fine file. It is a beautiful Tennessee prop with inlaid  leading edge protection which I think is polyurethane, and very very hard. My question is this, if I ever have to replace this prop, which prop has the very best resistance to rain damage? I hope not to fly in the rain on a regular basis, but sometimes it is difficult to avoid.



I do not wish to start a peeing contest between prop fans from different manufacturers, but would like to benefit from personal experience of those who have flown in rain enough with different props to form an educated opinion.

_________________
Thom Riddle
Buffalo, NY (9G0)

Don't worry about old age... it doesn't last very long.
- Anonymous

slyck(at)frontiernet.net
Guest

Posted: Sun Sep 11, 2011 3:00 pm Post subject: rain tolerant prop

Great minds....    almost qualifies as a double post - simultaneously.

BB

On 11, Sep 2011, at 6:46 PM, Thom Riddle wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   

 

 I flew the SS to Bob Bean's field around noon today and from there we.oboteh flew our Kolbs to D52 Geneseo corn roast. En route we saw a t-storm just to the west of our destination and caught a wee bit of rain on the way. 1/2 hour or so after landing the T-storm moved onto the field so the hosts were magnanimous helping push our Kolbs into their big hangar until the T-storm passed. We had a very good lunch but the turn out was poor due Wx. I checked radar and it looked like a short break before the next one would arrive, so we headed back north to BB's place and flew in the light rain most of the way. with BB's help I topped my tank and headed west back towrd Buffalo with expectations of having to take circuitous route around the second t-storm. Fortunately, it stayed south of my intended route which is good because it was lightening a good bit. Still I had to fly for at least another 1/2 hour in the rain before passing the storm. 

 

 As I did my post flight inspection I noticed some deterioration in the outermost 8" or so of the leading edge, which did not surprise me. It was not too bad and I will dress it with a fine file. It is a beautiful Tennessee prop with inlaid  leading edge protection which I think is polyurethane, and very very hard. My question is this, if I ever have to replace this prop, which prop has the very best resistance to rain damage? I hope not to fly in the rain on a regular basis, but sometimes it is difficult to avoid.

 

 I do not wish to start a peeing contest between prop fans from different manufacturers, but would like to benefit from personal experience of those who have flown in rain enough with different props to form an educated opinion.

 

 --------

 Thom Riddle

 Buffalo, NY (9G0)

 Kolb Slingshot SS-021

 Jabiru 2200A #1574

 Tennessee Prop 64x32

 

 Truth is what stands the test of experience.

 - Albert Einstein

 

 

 

 

 Read this topic online here:

 

 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=351982#351982

ceengland(at)bellsouth.ne
Guest

Posted: Sun Sep 11, 2011 4:44 pm Post subject: rain tolerant prop

On 09/11/2011 05:46 PM, Thom Riddle wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   



 I flew the SS to Bob Bean's field around noon today and from there we.oboteh flew our Kolbs to D52 Geneseo corn roast. En route we saw a t-storm just to the west of our destination and caught a wee bit of rain on the way. 1/2 hour or so after landing the T-storm moved onto the field so the hosts were magnanimous helping push our Kolbs into their big hangar until the T-storm passed. We had a very good lunch but the turn out was poor due Wx. I checked radar and it looked like a short break before the next one would arrive, so we headed back north to BB's place and flew in the light rain most of the way. with BB's help I topped my tank and headed west back towrd Buffalo with expectations of having to take circuitous route around the second t-storm. Fortunately, it stayed south of my intended route which is good because it was lightening a good bit. Still I had to fly for at least another 1/2 hour in the rain before passing the storm.



 As I did my post flight inspection I noticed some deterioration in the outermost 8" or so of the leading edge, which did not surprise me. It was not too bad and I will dress it with a fine file. It is a beautiful Tennessee prop with inlaid  leading edge protection which I think is polyurethane, and very very hard. My question is this, if I ever have to replace this prop, which prop has the very best resistance to rain damage? I hope not to fly in the rain on a regular basis, but sometimes it is difficult to avoid.



 I do not wish to start a peeing contest between prop fans from different manufacturers, but would like to benefit from personal experience of those who have flown in rain enough with different props to form an educated opinion.



 --------

 Thom Riddle

 Buffalo, NY (9G0)

 Kolb Slingshot SS-021

 Jabiru 2200A #1574

 Tennessee Prop 64x32



 Truth is what stands the test of experience.

 - Albert Einstein

Metal.
	




I know you can't really do that, but there you go. 



  The urethane leading edges on props I've flown on larger planes are 

not that hard; you can dent them slightly with your fingernail, but the 

dent doesn't remain. I've never seen rain damage on the urethane, but 

I've had the wood leading edge erode inboard (toward the hub) of where 

the urethane stopped.



FWIW,



Charlie

rmurrill(at)cox.net
Guest

Posted: Sun Sep 11, 2011 5:21 pm Post subject: rain tolerant prop

In the world of Apache and Blackhawk main rotor blades...and most other

helicopters  the best urethanes work great in desert sands, but fail rapidly

(a few hours) in heavy rain.  Titanium, nickel or stainless abrasion strips

work great in rain, but degrades after a few hundred "brown out"' landings.

If you fly out of Bagram you put urethane tape over the metal abrasion

strips....If you fly out of Ft. Rucker ...no urethane..just the OEM metal

abrasion strip..From my experience, urethane or fiberglass blade tips

operating in rain means regular replacement of the protective tape.



Bob



--

HShack(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Sun Sep 11, 2011 6:01 pm Post subject: rain tolerant prop

A guy in our club flew a MkIII on floats with over 900 takeoffs &  landings [water];  the prop was a Hot Prop [formerly Kiev Prop].   There was no discernable wear on the prop.  There is a lot of spray with  water operations.  

  

 He now has Hot Props on all 3 of his planes.

  

 Hot Prop has a bronze leading edge.

  

  In a message dated 9/11/2011 6:48:55 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,  riddletr(at)gmail.com writes:

  	  Quote: 	
		  My    question is this, if I ever have to replace this prop, which prop has the very    best resistance to rain damage? I hope not to fly in the rain on a regular    basis, but sometimes it is difficult to  avoid.



	


 [quote][b]

h20maule(at)hotmail.com
Guest

Posted: Sun Sep 11, 2011 6:11 pm Post subject: rain tolerant prop

warp drive with nickel leading edge is the answer. Period 



Thanks,Daniel Myers

Cell: 407 920 7700

SouthEastAmphibs.com

On Sep 11, 2011, at 9:58 PM, HShack(at)aol.com (HShack(at)aol.com) wrote:



[quote]  A guy in our club flew a MkIII on floats with over 900 takeoffs &  landings [water];  the prop was a Hot Prop [formerly Kiev Prop].   There was no discernable wear on the prop.  There is a lot of spray with  water operations.  

  

 He now has Hot Props on all 3 of his planes.

  

 Hot Prop has a bronze leading edge.

  

  In a message dated 9/11/2011 6:48:55 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,  riddletr(at)gmail.com (riddletr(at)gmail.com) writes:

  	  Quote: 	
		  My    question is this, if I ever have to replace this prop, which prop has the very    best resistance to rain damage? I hope not to fly in the rain on a regular    basis, but sometimes it is difficult to  avoid.



	


  	  Quote: 	
		  

	


[b]

John Hauck

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 4639
Location: Titus, Alabama (hauck's holler)

Posted: Sun Sep 11, 2011 6:50 pm Post subject: rain tolerant prop

> I do not wish to start a peeing contest between prop fans from different manufacturers, but would like to benefit from personal experience of those who have flown in rain enough with different props to form an educated opinion.

 	  Quote: 	
		   

 --------

 Thom Riddle

 
	




Done a lot of rain flying in the MKIII, to the point several coats of Aerothane paint have been eroded off the leading edge of the wings and tail section over the years and hours.



My prop is a Warp Drive 3 blade tapered with 15" nickle steel leading edges. 



Most of my rain flying has been in British Columbia, Yukon Territory, and Alaska.



I destroyed a new GSC two blade wooden prop in a matter of minutes in Florida.



My Jim Culver two blade wooden prop with polyurethane leading edges worked pretty good, but did not have near the endurance, in rain, that the Warp Drive has.



john h

mkIII

Morgan, UT

_________________
John Hauck
MKIII/912ULS
hauck's holler
Titus, Alabama

h20maule(at)hotmail.com
Guest

Posted: Sun Sep 11, 2011 7:03 pm Post subject: rain tolerant prop

John, all my flying is water flying. That's the best testament I can give to warp. How many of us fly in rain anyways?

Thanks,

Daniel Myers

Cell: 407 920 7700

SouthEastAmphibs.com

On Sep 11, 2011, at 10:48 PM, <jhauck(at)elmore.rr.com> wrote:

 	  Quote: 	

> I do not wish to start a peeing contest between prop fans from different manufacturers, but would like to benefit from personal experience of those who have flown in rain enough with different props to form an educated opinion.

> 

> --------

> Thom Riddle

 Done a lot of rain flying in the MKIII, to the point several coats of Aerothane paint have been eroded off the leading edge of the wings and tail section over the years and hours.

 My prop is a Warp Drive 3 blade tapered with 15" nickle steel leading edges. 

 Most of my rain flying has been in British Columbia, Yukon Territory, and Alaska.

 I destroyed a new GSC two blade wooden prop in a matter of minutes in Florida.

 My Jim Culver two blade wooden prop with polyurethane leading edges worked pretty good, but did not have near the endurance, in rain, that the Warp Drive has.

 john h

 mkIII

 Morgan, UT

Thom Riddle

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1597
Location: Buffalo, NY, USA (9G0)

Posted: Mon Sep 12, 2011 3:28 am Post subject: rain tolerant prop

Thanks, guys. That is what I was looking for. For now, I'll dress my prop edge and continue with it but know what I'll do if/when I continue to wear out this one in rain.

I need to do some better sealing around the SS canopy too if rain flying becomes a habit. I did not get soaked but did get moist in a few select places. Flip over canopies are more prone to leaks at the leading edge than MkIII windshields with doors on the side.

Thom

On Sun, Sep 11, 2011 at 11:00 PM, Daniel Myers <h20maule(at)hotmail.com (h20maule(at)hotmail.com)> wrote:

  [quote]--> Kolb-List message posted by: Daniel Myers <h20maule(at)hotmail.com (h20maule(at)hotmail.com)>

 John, all my flying is water flying. That's the best testament I can give to warp. How many of us fly in rain anyways?

 Thanks,

 Daniel Myers

 Cell: [url=tel:407%20920%207700]407 920 7700[/url]

 SouthEastAmphibs.com

On Sep 11, 2011, at 10:48 PM, <jhauck(at)elmore.rr.com (jhauck(at)elmore.rr.com)> wrote:

 > --> Kolb-List message posted by: <jhauck(at)elmore.rr.com (jhauck(at)elmore.rr.com)>

 	  Quote: 	

 >

 >> I do not wish to start a peeing contest between prop fans from different manufacturers, but would like to benefit from personal experience of those who have flown in rain enough with different props to form an educated opinion.

   >>

 >> --------

 >> Thom Riddle

 >

 >

 > Done a lot of rain flying in the MKIII, to the point several coats of Aerothane paint have been eroded off the leading edge of the wings and tail section over the years and hours.

 >

 > My prop is a Warp Drive 3 blade tapered with 15" nickle steel leading edges.

 >

 > Most of my rain flying has been in British Columbia, Yukon Territory, and Alaska.

 >

 > I destroyed a new GSC two blade wooden prop in a matter of minutes in Florida.

 >

 > My Jim Culver two blade wooden prop with polyurethane leading edges worked pretty good, but did not have near the endurance, in rain, that the Warp Drive has.

 >

 > john h

 > mkIII

 > Morgan, UT

 >

 >

 >

 >

 >

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_________________
Thom Riddle
Buffalo, NY (9G0)

Don't worry about old age... it doesn't last very long.
- Anonymous

Richard Pike

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 1671
Location: Blountville, Tennessee

Posted: Mon Sep 12, 2011 4:09 am Post subject: Re: rain tolerant prop

Thom, I'm sure that the Warp is the toughest, but if you don't want to buy a new prop, you might try the Powerfin plastic prop tape, it works quite well and is not expensive. I'm sure it would go over your urethane leading edge and work ok, since it works ok on my IVO.



Richard Pike

MKIII N420P (420ldPoops)

_________________
Richard Pike
Kolb MKIII N420P (420ldPoops)
Kingsport, TN 3TN0

Forgiving is tough, being forgiven is wonderful, and God's grace really is amazing.

neilsenrm(at)gmail.com
Guest

Posted: Mon Sep 12, 2011 5:09 am Post subject: rain tolerant prop

Thom



Warp Drive makes a very durable prop but may not be as efficient as you existing prop. John Williamson had a Jabaru with a Warp Drive prop on his Kolbra and it wasn't a happy combination. Others seem to do well with their Jabarus on Kolbs using other props so I have to wonder if the Warp Drive might a poor choice for the Jabiru.

 



Rick Neilsen

Redrive VW Powered MKIIIC

On Mon, Sep 12, 2011 at 7:24 AM, Thom Riddle <riddletr(at)gmail.com (riddletr(at)gmail.com)> wrote:

 [quote]Thanks, guys. That is what I was looking for. For now, I'll dress my prop edge and continue with it but know what I'll do if/when I continue to wear out this one in rain.

   



[b]

rickofudall

Joined: 19 Sep 2009
Posts: 1392
Location: Udall, KS, USA

Posted: Mon Sep 12, 2011 6:18 am Post subject: rain tolerant prop

Thom, Two suggestions to make your prop more rain tolerant. The first is from a fellow I met at the Arlington Air Show a number of years ago. He was flying a wood prop on his Varieze. His solution to rain erosion was to first flatten the leading edge of the blade to about 1/4" wide, then build it back up with JB Weld and re-contour. He said it provided excellent protection. The second is a source of propeller tape. Pegasus Auto Racing supply sells .011" thick urethane tape in 2" wide X 100' rolls that is suitable for helicopter blades. $9.99. https://www.pegasusautoracing.com/productselection3.asp?Product=3323

 If you want clear tape they have .008" thick, too. A 2" X 108' roll is $19.99. https://www.pegasusautoracing.com/productselection3.asp?Product=3155

 Good folks to deal with.

Rick Girard



On Mon, Sep 12, 2011 at 7:59 AM, Rick Neilsen <neilsenrm(at)gmail.com (neilsenrm(at)gmail.com)> wrote:

  	  Quote: 	
		  Thom



Warp Drive makes a very durable prop but may not be as efficient as you existing prop. John Williamson had a Jabaru with a Warp Drive prop on his Kolbra and it wasn't a happy combination. Others seem to do well with their Jabarus on Kolbs using other props so I have to wonder if the Warp Drive might a poor choice for the Jabiru.

  



Rick Neilsen

Redrive VW Powered MKIIIC

On Mon, Sep 12, 2011 at 7:24 AM, Thom Riddle <riddletr(at)gmail.com (riddletr(at)gmail.com)> wrote:

   	  Quote: 	
		  Thanks, guys. That is what I was looking for. For now, I'll dress my prop edge and continue with it but know what I'll do if/when I continue to wear out this one in rain.

    







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tp://forums.matronics.com

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-- 

Zulu Delta

Mk IIIC

Thanks, Homer GBYM

It isn't necessary to have relatives in Kansas City in order to be unhappy.

   - Groucho Marx



 

  [quote][b]

_________________
The smallest miracle right in front of you is enough to make you happy....

willuribe(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Mon Sep 12, 2011 12:03 pm Post subject: rain tolerant prop

I have flown my FireStar II in the rain with an IVO prop with no damage.

  [img]cid:tie_8CE3F9DD0A160B8_A6C_25416[/img]

rain.jpg

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Thom Riddle

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1597
Location: Buffalo, NY, USA (9G0)

Posted: Mon Sep 12, 2011 12:38 pm Post subject: rain tolerant prop

Thanks, Richard. I took a fine file to the leading edge urethane and smoothed it out easily and quickly. It was not damaged as much as I first thought. I'll get some Power Fin plastic tape and try it out as sacrificial material. 

  



Thom



  On Mon, Sep 12, 2011 at 8:09 AM, Richard Pike <richard(at)bcchapel.org (richard(at)bcchapel.org)> wrote:

[quote]  --> Kolb-List message posted by: "Richard Pike" <richard(at)bcchapel.org (richard(at)bcchapel.org)>

 

 Thom, I'm sure that the Warp is the toughest, but if you don't want to buy a new prop, you might try the Powerfin Plastic prop tape, it works quite well and is not expensive. I'm sure it would go over your urethane leading edge and work ok, since it works ok on my IVO.

   

 Richard Pike

 MKIII N420P (420ldPoops)

 

 --------

 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.

 Hebrews 11:1

 

 

 

 

 Read this topic online here:

 

 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=352018#352018

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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 [b]

_________________
Thom Riddle
Buffalo, NY (9G0)

Don't worry about old age... it doesn't last very long.
- Anonymous

Thom Riddle

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1597
Location: Buffalo, NY, USA (9G0)

Posted: Mon Sep 12, 2011 1:19 pm Post subject: rain tolerant prop

Thanks for the additional suggestions.  

Will, 

  

What rpm is your prop turning and what is its diameter? The reason I ask is that my Jabiru was turning about 2900 rpm (direct drive) while trying to get home fast in the rain. This is about 150 rpm more than my normal cruise. Only the outermost 6-7 inches of the 64" prop showed any damage. At 2900 RPM and air speed of 90 mph. The tips were moving thru the air at about 640 mph and the inner most point of the damage it was about 520 mph. At speeds less than that, the TN prop leading edge seems fine. 

  



In the future, when flying in the rain, I will consider slowing down to 65 mph and 2400 rpm which will mean the tip speed is about 520 mph.

  



Thom

  



On Mon, Sep 12, 2011 at 4:00 PM,  <willuribe(at)aol.com (willuribe(at)aol.com)> wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		       

  

     I have flown my FireStar II in the rain with an IVO prop with no damage.

  [img]cid:tie_8CE3F9DD0A160B8_A6C_25416[/img]

rain.jpg

Description:

Filesize:

21.8 KB

Viewed:

10051 Time(s)

_________________
Thom Riddle
Buffalo, NY (9G0)

Don't worry about old age... it doesn't last very long.
- Anonymous

willuribe(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Tue Sep 13, 2011 5:43 am Post subject: rain tolerant prop

Thom,

   

  

     

     

   It is a 62" 3 blade IVO Prop and in the picture the EIS is showing 6330 RPMs

   

   Regards,

   Will Uribe

   FireStar II

   El Paso, TX

   But next month I will be working in Tonowanda, NY

             

      

            --

Thom Riddle

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1597
Location: Buffalo, NY, USA (9G0)

Posted: Tue Sep 13, 2011 6:00 am Post subject: rain tolerant prop

Will,

Based on your numbers, assuming you have 2.58:1 gearbox and you are flying at 65 mph airspeed, then your prop tip speed is about 517 mph under those conditions. Based on your data and mine (admittedly small sample) about 520 mph or thereabouts seems to be the limit of at least composites before rain begins to cause damage. 

  

Thom

  



On Tue, Sep 13, 2011 at 9:41 AM,  <willuribe(at)aol.com (willuribe(at)aol.com)> wrote:

[quote]  Thom,

   

  

     

     

   It is a 62" 3 blade IVO Prop and in the picture the EIS is showing 6330 RPMs

   

   Regards,

   Will Uribe

   FireStar II

   El Paso, TX

   But next month I will be working in Tonowanda, NY

             

      

            --

_________________
Thom Riddle
Buffalo, NY (9G0)

Don't worry about old age... it doesn't last very long.
- Anonymous

Dennis.Kirby(at)kirtland.
Guest

Posted: Tue Sep 13, 2011 6:18 am Post subject: rain tolerant prop

<<  I'll get some Power Fin plastic tape and try it out as sacrificial material. Thom >>

 

Thom R - Where can you get Powerfin tape these days?  I thought the company went out of business.

 

Dennis Kirby

Mark-3, 912ul

Sandia Park, NM

 

 [quote][b]

John Hauck

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 4639
Location: Titus, Alabama (hauck's holler)

Posted: Tue Sep 13, 2011 6:45 am Post subject: rain tolerant prop

Based on your data and mine (admittedly small sample) about 520

 	  Quote: 	
		   mph or thereabouts seems to be the limit of at least composites before rain

 begins to cause damage.

 

 Thom

 
	


Without the protection of the nickle steel leading edge, rain will eat up a Warp Drive solid carbon fiber prop blade.



In the old days, WD was limited to a 12" steAel edge.  During my first flight to Alaska, in 1994, I ended up flying in hours of very heavy rain.  When I landed at Arlington, WA, a gent named Bob, that worked for WD, told me to fix the erosion with JB Weld or I was going to blow a steel edge off.  Rain had erroded a couple inches inboard of the steel edge, plus was trying to lift the inboard end of it.  Did a field expedient repair on the airfield with avgas, a plastic picnic knife, and some sandpaper.



Today, WD has the technology to use 15" nickle steel leading edges.  This takes care of that small area that was not protected by the old 12" edges.



john h

mkIII

Morgan, UT

_________________
John Hauck
MKIII/912ULS
hauck's holler
Titus, Alabama

Thom Riddle

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1597
Location: Buffalo, NY, USA (9G0)

Posted: Tue Sep 13, 2011 7:45 am Post subject: rain tolerant prop

Denis,It did go out of business but someone bought them out and started selling them again, about a year ago or perhaps a little longer. I have not checked in recent months so don't know if they are still afloat. Google should tell you.

  



Thom

  On Tue, Sep 13, 2011 at 10:15 AM, Kirby, Dennis Civ USAF AFMC AFNWC/EN <Dennis.Kirby(at)kirtland.af.mil (Dennis.Kirby(at)kirtland.af.mil)> wrote:

[quote]  

<<  I'll get some Power Fin plastic tape and try it out as sacrificial material. Thom >>

 

Thom R - Where can you get Powerfin tape these days?  I thought the company went out of business.  

 

Dennis Kirby

Mark-3, 912ul

Sandia Park, NM

 

  	  Quote: 	
		  



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tp://forums.matronics.com

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[b]

_________________
Thom Riddle
Buffalo, NY (9G0)

Don't worry about old age... it doesn't last very long.
- Anonymous

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