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avn100(at)AOL.COM
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 Posted: Tue Sep 20, 2011 11:43 am Post subject: Lightning-List Digest: 4 Msgs - 09/19/11 |
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SUBJECT: Hymenoplasty Part Three in three parts, plus PS
It is called "certification", fellas, not "certifiction".
1. Ref "geezer" > takes one to know one and i are 1, 2
2. Used car, err, plane salesman Maxim Gorky's own words in his initial braggadocio post establish the subject aircraft is capable of operation (and was flown) outside SP limits. No going back. No apology.
3. As for the unsolicited apology from the new FamilyMan arrival, some (perraps like MaximG) prefer and pretend to be unaware of the issue's specifics. Did prior owner TELL you and prove to you somehow that it was SP eligible or just give numbers you now wishfully misinterpret to mean that? If anything, your oversize prop would make it cruise faster than the typical Esqual or its plagiarized clone the Lightning. I am simpatico. You may have been misinformed and are now the victim of a typo or a claim that is either irrelevant to the SP issue or strains credulity.
"At 1280 rpm it indicates 110 knots"
This is not a "how fast/slow can we go in fifth gear overdrive" contest (although there are max stall speed SP rules also which might be blown by some of these aircraft). If your fine bird is, as you confess, a standard Esqual with standard 3300rpm Jab 3300 and standard (!) prop its maximum sustained level cruise is WTF (WayTheFoch) too high to be legally or ethically operated by a junior birdman or reflexes-limited Sport Pilot
FAR 1.1 is clear. SP eligible =
(2) A maximum airspeed in level flight with maximum continuous power (VH) of not more than 120 knots CAS under standard atmospheric conditions at sea level.
(4) A maximum stalling speed or minimum steady flight speed without the use of lift-enhancing devices (VS1) of not more than 45 knots CAS at the aircraft's maximum certificated takeoff weight and most critical center of gravity
Absent restrictions imposed, declared, placarded, tach-marked, and documented for all posterity at the time of construction (which should be ignored by evaluators as a sham anyway when SP violations are considered), the engine manufacturer (you did not build the engine from a kit did you... ANY of you?) data plate specs apply and those currently shown on the website "specifications" page =
Power Rating of the 3300 is 120 hp (at) 3300 rpm continuous
==============================
<<<POST SCRIPT>>>
IN THE INTEREST OF FULL DISCLOSURE (which you rarely get from a used car salesman) there is an amusing twist here which Nick (for all his angry denunciations of my factual concerns/contributions) and future LS buyers better be aware of. Recognizing their material quality, assembly tolerances, and operational experience justified it, Jabiru increased the maximum continuous to 3300rpm many years ago (check data plate or with them for serial numbers affected) and still display that on their website now. But in response to howls of protest from the increasing number of LSA manufacturers three years ago, they have now joined the lying sham parade. They will... on the identical production line engine... at the request of the buyer affix a dataplate declaring it a "3300L" with a maximum continuous rpm of 2850 which with a finely pitched dinnerplate-diameter prop and absent speed mods allows many aircraft (such as the Sonex) to be certified and test flown just under the 120K Vh (at)2850.
If Nick shipped any LS-1 without this 3300L dataplate despite living next door to JabUSA, well.... Make sure you don't accept one that way now. And if you already have your bird, check the dataplate. 3300rpm max continuous? Not a virgin, can't undo, not now or ever SP eligible. Less? Maybe. Fine tooth comb the certification paperwork, placards, and instrument markings.
G'luck.
[quote][b]
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wampam
Joined: 20 Oct 2008
Posts: 49
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| Posted: Tue Sep 20, 2011 11:53 am Post subject: Lightning-List Digest: 4 Msgs - 09/19/11 |
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Do you even own a plane?
From: owner-lightning-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-lightning-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of ...
Sent: Tuesday, September 20, 2011 12:40 PM
To: lightning-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: Re: Lightning-List Digest: 4 Msgs - 09/19/11
SUBJECT: Hymenoplasty Part Three in three parts, plus PS
It is called "certification", fellas, not "certifiction".
1. Ref "geezer" > takes one to know one and i are 1, 2
2. Used car, err, plane salesman Maxim Gorky's own words in his initial braggadocio post establish the subject aircraft is capable of operation (and was flown) outside SP limits. No going back. No apology.
3. As for the unsolicited apology from the new FamilyMan arrival, some (perraps like MaximG) prefer and pretend to be unaware of the issue's specifics. Did prior owner TELL you and prove to you somehow that it was SP eligible or just give numbers you now wishfully misinterpret to mean that? If anything, your oversize prop would make it cruise faster than the typical Esqual or its plagiarized clone the Lightning. I am simpatico. You may have been misinformed and are now the victim of a typo or a claim that is either irrelevant to the SP issue or strains credulity.
"At 1280 rpm it indicates 110 knots"
This is not a "how fast/slow can we go in fifth gear overdrive" contest (although there are max stall speed SP rules also which might be blown by some of these aircraft). If your fine bird is, as you confess, a standard Esqual with standard 3300rpm Jab 3300 and standard (!) prop its maximum sustained level cruise is WTF (WayTheFoch) too high to be legally or ethically operated by a junior birdman or reflexes-limited Sport Pilot
FAR 1.1 is clear. SP eligible =
(2) A maximum airspeed in level flight with maximum continuous power (VH) of not more than 120 knots CAS under standard atmospheric conditions at sea level.
(4) A maximum stalling speed or minimum steady flight speed without the use of lift-enhancing devices (VS1) of not more than 45 knots CAS at the aircraft's maximum certificated takeoff weight and most critical center of gravity
Absent restrictions imposed, declared, placarded, tach-marked, and documented for all posterity at the time of construction (which should be ignored by evaluators as a sham anyway when SP violations are considered), the engine manufacturer (you did not build the engine from a kit did you... ANY of you?) data plate specs apply and those currently shown on the website "specifications" page =
Power Rating of the 3300 is 120 hp (at) 3300 rpm continuous
==============================
<<<POST SCRIPT>>>
IN THE INTEREST OF FULL DISCLOSURE (which you rarely get from a used car salesman) there is an amusing twist here which Nick (for all his angry denunciations of my factual concerns/contributions) and future LS buyers better be aware of. Recognizing their material quality, assembly tolerances, and operational experience justified it, Jabiru increased the maximum continuous to 3300rpm many years ago (check data plate or with them for serial numbers affected) and still display that on their website now. But in response to howls of protest from the increasing number of LSA manufacturers three years ago, they have now joined the lying sham parade. They will... on the identical production line engine... at the request of the buyer affix a dataplate declaring it a "3300L" with a maximum continuous rpm of 2850 which with a finely pitched dinnerplate-diameter prop and absent speed mods allows many aircraft (such as the Sonex) to be certified and test flown just under the 120K Vh (at)2850.
If Nick shipped any LS-1 without this 3300L dataplate despite living next door to JabUSA, well.... Make sure you don't accept one that way now. And if you already have your bird, check the dataplate. 3300rpm max continuous? Not a virgin, can't undo, not now or ever SP eligible. Less? Maybe. Fine tooth comb the certification paperwork, placards, and instrument markings.
G'luck.
=======================[/b][/quote] p; - The Lightning-List Email Forum -[/b][/quote] avigator to browse[/b][/quote] ist Un/Subscription,[/b][/quote] Day Browse, Chat, FAQ,[/b][/quote] :p>[/b][/quote] p://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Lightning-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Lightning-List[/b][/quote] =======================[/b][/quote] p; - MATRONICS WEB FORUMS -[/b][/quote] via the Web Forums![/b][/quote] p://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com[/b][/quote] =======================[/b][/quote] p; - List Contribution Web Site -[/b][/quote] support![/b][/quote] p; -Matt Dralle, List Admin.[/b][/quote] p://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/contribution[/b][/quote] =======================[/b] [/quote]
This e-mail and any attachments may contain confidential material for the sole use of the intended recipient. If you are not the intended recipient, please be aware that any disclosure, copying, distribution or use of this e-mail or any attachment is prohibited. If you have received this e-mail in error, please contact the sender and delete all copies.
Thank you for your cooperation.
[quote][b]
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voroninmax(at)gmail.com
Guest
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| Posted: Tue Sep 20, 2011 12:05 pm Post subject: Lightning-List Digest: 4 Msgs - 09/19/11 |
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I don't think he does.
Furthermore, man is set in his beliefs. Nothing can shake them. Attached is a picture of a well known S-LSA airplane that shows and flies at the major airshows with a red arrow pointing to the placarded RPM limitations, the only reason for which, is to stay legal. You would think that FAA voice the concerns if there were any, right? Apparently not, according to the man, who won't even post his name.
Best regards,
Max
On Tue, Sep 20, 2011 at 3:51 PM, Mefford, Walt <walt.mefford(at)garmin.com (walt.mefford(at)garmin.com)> wrote:
| Quote: |
Do you even own a plane?
From: owner-lightning-list-server(at)matronics.com (owner-lightning-list-server(at)matronics.com) [mailto:owner-lightning-list-server(at)matronics.com (owner-lightning-list-server(at)matronics.com)] On Behalf Of ...
Sent: Tuesday, September 20, 2011 12:40 PM
To: lightning-list(at)matronics.com (lightning-list(at)matronics.com)
Subject: Re: Lightning-List Digest: 4 Msgs - 09/19/11
SUBJECT: Hymenoplasty Part Three in three parts, plus PS
It is called "certification", fellas, not "certifiction".
1. Ref "geezer" > takes one to know one and i are 1, 2
2. Used car, err, plane salesman Maxim Gorky's own words in his initial braggadocio post establish the subject aircraft is capable of operation (and was flown) outside SP limits. No going back. No apology.
3. As for the unsolicited apology from the new FamilyMan arrival, some (perraps like MaximG) prefer and pretend to be unaware of the issue's specifics. Did prior owner TELL you and prove to you somehow that it was SP eligible or just give numbers you now wishfully misinterpret to mean that? If anything, your oversize prop would make it cruise faster than the typical Esqual or its plagiarized clone the Lightning. I am simpatico. You may have been misinformed and are now the victim of a typo or a claim that is either irrelevant to the SP issue or strains credulity.
"At 1280 rpm it indicates 110 knots"
This is not a "how fast/slow can we go in fifth gear overdrive" contest (although there are max stall speed SP rules also which might be blown by some of these aircraft). If your fine bird is, as you confess, a standard Esqual with standard 3300rpm Jab 3300 and standard (!) prop its maximum sustained level cruise is WTF (WayTheFoch) too high to be legally or ethically operated by a junior birdman or reflexes-limited Sport Pilot
FAR 1.1 is clear. SP eligible =
(2) A maximum airspeed in level flight with maximum continuous power (VH) of not more than 120 knots CAS under standard atmospheric conditions at sea level.
(4) A maximum stalling speed or minimum steady flight speed without the use of lift-enhancing devices (VS1) of not more than 45 knots CAS at the aircraft's maximum certificated takeoff weight and most critical center of gravity
Absent restrictions imposed, declared, placarded, tach-marked, and documented for all posterity at the time of construction (which should be ignored by evaluators as a sham anyway when SP violations are considered), the engine manufacturer (you did not build the engine from a kit did you... ANY of you?) data plate specs apply and those currently shown on the website "specifications" page =
Power Rating of the 3300 is 120 hp (at) 3300 rpm continuous
==============================
<<<POST SCRIPT>>>
IN THE INTEREST OF FULL DISCLOSURE (which you rarely get from a used car salesman) there is an amusing twist here which Nick (for all his angry denunciations of my factual concerns/contributions) and future LS buyers better be aware of. Recognizing their material quality, assembly tolerances, and operational experience justified it, Jabiru increased the maximum continuous to 3300rpm many years ago (check data plate or with them for serial numbers affected) and still display that on their website now. But in response to howls of protest from the increasing number of LSA manufacturers three years ago, they have now joined the lying sham parade. They will... on the identical production line engine... at the request of the buyer affix a dataplate declaring it a "3300L" with a maximum continuous rpm of 2850 which with a finely pitched dinnerplate-diameter prop and absent speed mods allows many aircraft (such as the Sonex) to be certified and test flown just under the 120K Vh (at)2850.
If Nick shipped any LS-1 without this 3300L dataplate despite living next door to JabUSA, well.... Make sure you don't accept one that way now. And if you already have your bird, check the dataplate. 3300rpm max continuous? Not a virgin, can't undo, not now or ever SP eligible. Less? Maybe. Fine tooth comb the certification paperwork, placards, and instrument markings.
G'luck.
======================= p; - The Lightning-List Email Forum - avigator to browse ist Un/Subscription, Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, :p> p://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Lightning-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Lightning-List ======================= p; - MATRONICS WEB FORUMS - via the Web Forums! p://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com ======================= p; - List Contribution Web Site - support! p; -Matt Dralle, List Admin. p://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/contribution =======================
This e-mail and any attachments may contain confidential material for the sole use of the intended recipient. If you are not the intended recipient, please be aware that any disclosure, copying, distribution or use of this e-mail or any attachment is prohibited. If you have received this e-mail in error, please contact the sender and delete all copies.
Thank you for your cooperation.
| Quote: |
" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Lightning-List
ttp://forums.matronics.com
_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
|
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http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Lightning-List |
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nick(at)flylightning.net
Guest
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| Posted: Tue Sep 20, 2011 2:09 pm Post subject: Lightning-List Digest: 4 Msgs - 09/19/11 |
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My angry denunciations of your fictional concerns/ contributions are well justified and seated in truth.
First for such an expert in the field of Lightning’s or esqual’s to this date you have never signed a Name, or the plane you may fly, maybe a serial number or n number of your Lightning, LS-1, or esqual would be helpful. However a doubt you will or can for that matter.
Secondly your wisdom on the matter of a 3300L data plate is misplaced.
Yes you can in-fact receive a data plate for the engine declaring a max continuous power setting of 2850rpm. This is only by request to Jabiru pty directly, they just don’t slap them on, or hand them out. Your old data plate is returned to Jabiru Pty with a letter requesting the 3300L data tag, and the engine will not be operated above 2850 for more than 15 minutes. But this is only for engines used by homebuilders who did not build the engine. A builder of an experimental aircraft wishing to meet light sport, must conform to the FAR’s not the ASTM standards. Therefore they must use the engine manufacturer’s limitations for max continuous power, hence the use of the 3300L engine in some homebuilts.
This is where the disconnect for you comes in to play.
The Manufacturer of an SLSA submits with each aircraft an 8130-15, or “Manufacturers Statement of Compliance” for each aircraft produced.
On this form the Manufacturer references ASTM standards and or FAA regulations to which the aircraft is produced and meets the rule.
Of these is the need to define the aircraft as a whole, set design limitations, have a compliant POH, Maintenance Manual, Quality assurance program and so forth.
It is in the area of defining ones aircraft and its limitations, that allows a manufacturer to set the limitations of everything about the aircraft including the engine.
We are the Manufacturer of the aircraft as a whole, we are responsible for its continued airworthiness, and the safety monitoring of that aircraft for its life span.
The Manufacturer of the engine, Jabiru PTY LTD does not sign nor submit any such documentation for the installation of its engine in any aircraft, but that the engine’s design and manufacturer meets the Requirements of ASTM F2339.
In Short the Manufacturer of an SLSA aircraft can set the operational limitations of an engine not manufactured by them, because by definition the manufacturer is responsible for the Aircraft as a Whole thru the compliance requirements of the ASTM.
The Builder of an experimental aircraft is subject only to the requirements of the FARs. A builder can not use the ASTM standards as justification to meet the FARs. This is why a builder must use the engine manufacturer’s limitations.
If you would care to be corrected further be my guest and type away. But I would suggest that until than, go out and Start an SLSA production facility it might shed some light on your fictional concerns.
Since you are not willing to sign a name to your posts, than it is the duty of your fellow wingmen here to give a name to you, just like in the military right?
I dub thee,
“Standup Philosopher”
Good Day.
Nick Otterback
Arion Aircraft
Builder of N233AL, N323AL, N324AL, N327AL, N106AL.
--
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FamilyGage(at)AOL.COM
Guest
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| Posted: Sun Sep 25, 2011 1:49 pm Post subject: Lightning-List Digest: 4 Msgs - 09/19/11 |
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Nick: I am very distressed about this whole situation. My intention was not to cause controversy or to deceive anyone. Your company has been very good to me, and I love my Esqual. My medical status is the problem. I called your offices while you where away to apologize. This person has a mental problem.
Respectfully,
Ray Gage
In a message dated 9/20/2011 6:09:27 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, nick(at)flylightning.net writes:
| Quote: |
My angry denunciations of your fictional concerns/ contributions are well justified and seated in truth.
First for such an expert in the field of Lightning’s or esqual’s to this date you have never signed a Name, or the plane you may fly, maybe a serial number or an number of your Lightning, LS-1, or esqual would be helpful. However a doubt you will or can for that matter.
Secondly your wisdom on the matter of a 3300L data plate is misplaced.
Yes you can in-fact receive a data plate for the engine declaring a max continuous power setting of 2850rpm. This is only by request to Jabiru pty directly, they just don’t slap them on, or hand them out. Your old data plate is returned to Jabiru Pty with a letter requesting the 3300L data tag, and the engine will not be operated above 2850 for more than 15 minutes. But this is only for engines used by homebuilders who did not build the engine. A builder of an experimental aircraft wishing to meet light sport, must conform to the FAR’s not the ASTM standards. Therefore they must use the engine manufacturer’s limitations for max continuous power, hence the use of the 3300L engine in some homebuilts.
This is where the disconnect for you comes in to play.
The Manufacturer of an SLSA submits with each aircraft an 8130-15, or “Manufacturers Statement of Compliance” for each aircraft produced.
On this form the Manufacturer references ASTM standards and or FAA regulations to which the aircraft is produced and meets the rule.
Of these is the need to define the aircraft as a whole, set design limitations, have a compliant POH, Maintenance Manual, Quality assurance program and so forth.
It is in the area of defining ones aircraft and its limitations, that allows a manufacturer to set the limitations of everything about the aircraft including the engine.
We are the Manufacturer of the aircraft as a whole, we are responsible for its continued airworthiness, and the safety monitoring of that aircraft for its life span.
The Manufacturer of the engine, Jabiru PTY LTD does not sign nor submit any such documentation for the installation of its engine in any aircraft, but that the engine’s design and manufacturer meets the Requirements of ASTM F2339.
In Short the Manufacturer of an SLSA aircraft can set the operational limitations of an engine not manufactured by them, because by definition the manufacturer is responsible for the Aircraft as a Whole thru the compliance requirements of the ASTM.
The Builder of an experimental aircraft is subject only to the requirements of the FARs. A builder can not use the ASTM standards as justification to meet the FARs. This is why a builder must use the engine manufacturer’s limitations.
If you would care to be corrected further be my guest and type away. But I would suggest that until than, go out and Start an SLSA production facility it might shed some light on your fictional concerns.
Since you are not willing to sign a name to your posts, than it is the duty of your fellow wingmen here to give a name to you, just like in the military right?
I dub thee,
“Standup Philosopher”
Good Day.
Nick Otterback
Arion Aircraft
Builder of N233AL, N323AL, N324AL, N327AL, N106AL.
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-lightning-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-lightning-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of ...
Sent: Tuesday, September 20, 2011 2:40 PM
To: lightning-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: Re: Lightning-List Digest: 4 Msgs - 09/19/11
SUBJECT: Hymenoplasty Part Three in three parts, plus PS
It is called "certification", fellas, not "certifiction".
1. Ref "geezer" > takes one to know one and i are 1, 2
2. Used car, err, plane salesman Maxim Gorky's own words in his initial braggadocio post establish the subject aircraft is capable of operation (and was flown) outside SP limits. No going back. No apology.
3. As for the unsolicited apology from the new FamilyMan arrival, some (perraps like MaximG) prefer and pretend to be unaware of the issue's specifics. Did prior owner TELL you and prove to you somehow that it was SP eligible or just give numbers you now wishfully misinterpret to mean that? If anything, your oversize prop would make it cruise faster than the typical Esqual or its plagiarized clone the Lightning. I am simpatico. You may have been misinformed and are now the victim of a typo or a claim that is either irrelevant to the SP issue or strains credulity.
"At 1280 rpm it indicates 110 knots"
This is not a "how fast/slow can we go in fifth gear overdrive" contest (although there are max stall speed SP rules also which might be blown by some of these aircraft). If your fine bird is, as you confess, a standard Esqual with standard 3300rpm Jab 3300 and standard (!) prop its maximum sustained level cruise is WTF (WayTheFoch) too high to be legally or ethically operated by a junior birdman or reflexes-limited Sport Pilot
FAR 1.1 is clear. SP eligible =
(2) A maximum airspeed in level flight with maximum continuous power (VH) of not more than 120 knots CAS under standard atmospheric conditions at sea level.
(4) A maximum stalling speed or minimum steady flight speed without the use of lift-enhancing devices (VS1) of not more than 45 knots CAS at the aircraft's maximum certificated takeoff weight and most critical center of gravity
Absent restrictions imposed, declared, placarded, tach-marked, and documented for all posterity at the time of construction (which should be ignored by evaluators as a sham anyway when SP violations are considered), the engine manufacturer (you did not build the engine from a kit did you... ANY of you?) data plate specs apply and those currently shown on the website "specifications" page =
Power Rating of the 3300 is 120 hp (at) 3300 rpm continuous
==============================
<<<POST SCRIPT>>>
IN THE INTEREST OF FULL DISCLOSURE (which you rarely get from a used car salesman) there is an amusing twist here which Nick (for all his angry denunciations of my factual concerns/contributions) and future LS buyers better be aware of. Recognizing their material quality, assembly tolerances, and operational experience justified it, Jabiru increased the maximum continuous to 3300rpm many years ago (check data plate or with them for serial numbers affected) and still display that on their website now. But in response to howls of protest from the increasing number of LSA manufacturers three years ago, they have now joined the lying sham parade. They will... on the identical production line engine... at the request of the buyer affix a dataplate declaring it a "3300L" with a maximum continuous rpm of 2850 which with a finely pitched dinnerplate-diameter prop and absent speed mods allows many aircraft (such as the Sonex) to be certified and test flown just under the 120K Vh (at)2850.
If Nick shipped any LS-1 without this 3300L dataplate despite living next door to JabUSA, well.... Make sure you don't accept one that way now. And if you already have your bird, check the dataplate. 3300rpm max continuous? Not a virgin, can't undo, not now or ever SP eligible. Less? Maybe. Fine tooth comb the certification paperwork, placards, and instrument markings.
G'luck.
01234567890123
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[quote][b]
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