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Feather with ailerons

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redrocketrider

Joined: 13 May 2011
Posts: 67
Location: Nervino airport

Posted: Thu Sep 22, 2011 9:40 am Post subject: Feather with ailerons

Hello all fox flyers, Has any body  ever considered spoilers or some other lift eliminating devices for the  kitfox 4/1200? In the winds and thermals we get up here in the high  desert has caused me to put on my blown out Tail dragger tennies and really get  the ole feet moving to get this feather with ailerons on the tarmac safely. It  is a blast to fly and a real challenge to land where one would like to arrive  at, but not always the spot one picks because of this light wing loading. I have  flown all of the tail wheel planes and know what the feet are for!  I was  landing yesterday in mild thermal conditions and X-winds the ship did  some wild gyrations  akin to a square dance! a doe sa doe and almost a  alaman left!  while still flying a few ft off the runway great fun but not  touching down where one would like! So the question of spoilers or ?  

  Because of the flaperons  being limited while deployed as flaps I do not use them. Blast away! Thanks for  any and all comments.  Bob

   [quote][b]

_________________
Keep the dirty side down/Blue skies. Bob

lcfitt(at)sbcglobal.net
Guest

Posted: Thu Sep 22, 2011 10:15 am Post subject: Feather with ailerons

I recall in the day, several guys experimented by  moving the  up stop for the flap portion of flaperon function to get a  little reflex flaperon.  In my recollection, the stop was quickly restored  in the original position as reflexing the flaps caused the airplane to stop  flying pronto and they didn’t like what they were experiencing.  It  seems like this is what you are looking for, but again, I was a forum observer  and have no practical experience with the mod.

 Lowell

  



  From: rtmarshall (rtav8or2(at)psln.com) 

 Sent: Thursday, September 22, 2011 10:37 AM

 To: kitfox-list(at)matronics.com (kitfox-list(at)matronics.com) 

 Subject: Feather with ailerons

 



 Hello all fox flyers, Has any body  ever considered spoilers or some other lift eliminating devices for the  kitfox 4/1200? In the winds and thermals we get up here in the high  desert has caused me to put on my blown out Tail dragger tennies and really get  the ole feet moving to get this feather with ailerons on the tarmac safely. It  is a blast to fly and a real challenge to land where one would like to arrive  at, but not always the spot one picks because of this light wing loading. I have  flown all of the tail wheel planes and know what the feet are for!  I was  landing yesterday in mild thermal conditions and X-winds the ship did  some wild gyrations  akin to a square dance! a doe sa doe and almost a  alaman left!  while still flying a few ft off the runway great fun but not  touching down where one would like! So the question of spoilers or ?  

  Because of the flaperons  being limited while deployed as flaps I do not use them. Blast away! Thanks for  any and all comments.  Bob

[quote]



href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kitfox-List">http://www.matronhref="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com

href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c

[b]

Guy Buchanan

Joined: 16 Jul 2006
Posts: 1204
Location: Ramona, CA

Posted: Thu Sep 22, 2011 10:20 am Post subject: Feather with ailerons

On 9/22/2011 10:37 AM, rtmarshall wrote:  	  Quote: 	
		   Because of the flaperons being limited while deployed as flaps I do not use them. Blast away! Thanks for any and all comments.  Bob 	
 

 Bob,

     First, please put your full name, location, and aircraft type / status in your signature. It makes things much more friendly. Next, never heard of spoilers on a Kitfox, or any other drag device. Most think it's got too much drag to begin with! I rarely use flaps too, and windy landings can be entertaining, but my solution is to wheel land with a little more speed so you have a little more control. Plus my plane's got enough ground clearance that you can push the stick forward on roll-out and really plant the mains on the ground, thereby helping keep the wings level. Sounds like you're having fun.

 

           Guy Buchanan   Normal   Guy Buchanan   2   21   2011-09-20T05:05:00Z   2011-09-20T05:05:00Z   1   31   183   1   1   213   14.00          <![endif]-->         59   false            false   false   false      EN-US   X-NONE   X-NONE                                             MicrosoftInternetExplorer4                                                   <![endif]-->                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                <![endif]-->      /* Style Definitions */  table.MsoNormalTable 	{mso-style-name:"Table Normal"; 	mso-tstyle-rowband-size:0; 	mso-tstyle-colband-size:0; 	mso-style-noshow:yes; 	mso-style-priority:99; 	mso-style-parent:""; 	mso-padding-alt:0in 5.4pt 0in 5.4pt; 	mso-para-margin:0in; 	mso-para-margin-bottom:.0001pt; 	mso-pagination:widow-orphan; 	font-size:10.0pt; 	font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"; 	mso-ascii-font-family:Calibri; 	mso-ascii-theme-font:minor-latin; 	mso-hansi-font-family:Calibri; 	mso-hansi-theme-font:minor-latin; 	mso-bidi-font-family:"Times New Roman"; 	mso-bidi-theme-font:minor-bidi;}  <![endif]-->   <![endif]-->       <![endif]-->Guy Buchanan - List moderator

 Ramona, CA

 Kitfox IV-1200 / 592-C / Warp 3cs / 500 hrs. and grounded

    [quote][b]

_________________
Guy Buchanan
Deceased K-IV 1200
A glider pilot too.

redrocketrider

Joined: 13 May 2011
Posts: 67
Location: Nervino airport

Posted: Thu Sep 22, 2011 12:14 pm Post subject: Feather with ailerons

Mr. Buchanan, Thanks for the  reply, The email did contain the type of aircraft( 4/1200)(its Status was  obvious its flying)  and the location high desert and my name. I guess  in trying to conserve band width I committed 

 some sort of crime. The request  was quite friendly. I did not know that Matt Dralle appointed moderators for the  kitfox-list email.   All the years I was on the rocket list and the RV  and the Cessna 180 list I never saw a moderator on the Email List.  Forums yes. Blue Skies.  Bob

 From: Guy Buchanan (gebuchanan(at)cox.net) 

 [quote]      Sent: Thursday, September 22, 2011 11:16 AM

   To: kitfox-list(at)matronics.com (kitfox-list(at)matronics.com) 

   Subject: Re: Feather with ailerons



   



On 9/22/2011 10:37 AM, rtmarshall wrote:     	  Quote: 	
		   Because of the      flaperons being limited while deployed as flaps I do not use them. Blast      away! Thanks for any and all comments.     Bob 	


Bob,

    First, please put    your full name, location, and aircraft type / status in your signature. It    makes things much more friendly. Next, never heard of spoilers on a Kitfox, or    any other drag device. Most think it's got too much drag to begin with! I    rarely use flaps too, and windy landings can be entertaining, but my solution    is to wheel land with a little more speed so you have a little more control.    Plus my plane's got enough ground clearance that you can push the stick    forward on roll-out and really plant the mains on the ground, thereby helping    keep the wings level. Sounds like you're having fun.



                 Guy Buchanan - List moderator

Ramona, CA

Kitfox IV-1200 / 592-C /    Warp 3cs / 500 hrs. and grounded

 	  Quote: 	
		  



href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kitfox-List">http://www.matronhref="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com

href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c

	
[b]

_________________
Keep the dirty side down/Blue skies. Bob

Guy Buchanan

Joined: 16 Jul 2006
Posts: 1204
Location: Ramona, CA

Posted: Thu Sep 22, 2011 2:40 pm Post subject: Feather with ailerons

On 9/22/2011 1:11 PM, rtmarshall wrote:  	  Quote: 	
		  I did not know that Matt Dralle appointed moderators for the kitfox-list email.   All the years I was on the rocket list and the RV and the Cessna 180 list I never saw a moderator on the Email List. Forums yes. Blue Skies.  Bob 	
 

 Bob,

     Welcome to the Kitfox List. Yep, Mike Gibbs and I are the "List Nazis" and work hard to keep this a friendly, welcoming place. We insist on "cordial" dialogue, the kind you'd get if you were standing around, beers in hand, at the Annual Kitfox Fly-in in Idaho, and we like to make it easy for folks to get to know one another, hence the names and places and aircraft signature. Occasionally we've had to get obnoxious about it but on the whole this is a great group of guys. Glad you could join us.

 

 Guy Buchanan - List moderator

 Ramona, CA

 Kitfox IV-1200 / 912-S / Warp 3cs / 500 hrs. and grounded

 Now a glider pilot, too.

    [quote][b]

_________________
Guy Buchanan
Deceased K-IV 1200
A glider pilot too.

Michel

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 966
Location: Norway

Posted: Fri Sep 23, 2011 1:47 am Post subject: Re: Feather with ailerons

 	  redrocketrider wrote: 	
		  Hello all fox flyers, Has any body  ever considered spoilers or some other lift eliminating devices for the  kitfox 4/1200? 	


A friend of mine has an ASSO V aircraft with a spoiler that is a perforated plate that lowers under the seat. I don't think it lowers the lift but rather, increases the drag. Anyway, he says that it is very handy when landing and floating on the ground effect cushion. It shortens the landing distance. I think it may be better than changing something to the Kitfox's flaperon that are quite ... sensitive. For example, my "flaps" is only limited to ten degrees and ... I never use them.



Cheers,

Michel Verheughe

Kitfox 3 - Jabiru 2200

Norway

_________________
Kitfox 3 - Jabiru 2200

redrocketrider

Joined: 13 May 2011
Posts: 67
Location: Nervino airport

Posted: Fri Sep 23, 2011 9:02 am Post subject: Feather with ailerons

Thanks Michel,



That is a great suggestion as Bob is concerned with putting something on the 

top wing and really didn't want to mess with the flaperons at all.  We have 

flown with spoilers for a very long time and felt this could be a great 

addition to the Fox.



The floating becomes an issue when there are thermals and a cross wind. 

Need something to spoil the lift!



Thanks again, let you know what we decide to do.



Toodie and Bob Marshall

Beckwourth, CA  Nervino O02

4/1200 flying the feather!



--------------------------------------------------

From: "Michel" <michel(at)online.no>

Sent: Friday, September 23, 2011 2:47 AM

To: <kitfox-list(at)matronics.com>

Subject: Re: Feather with ailerons




redrocketrider wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   Hello all fox flyers, Has any body  ever considered spoilers or some other 

 lift eliminating devices for the  kitfox 4/1200?


	


A friend of mine has an ASSO V aircraft with a spoiler that is a perforated 

plate that lowers under the seat. I don't think it lowers the lift but 

rather, increases the drag. Anyway, he says that it is very handy when 

landing and floating on the ground effect cushion. It shortens the landing 

distance. I think it may be better than changing something to the Kitfox's 

flaperon that are quite ... sensitive. For example, my "flaps" is only 

limited to ten degrees and ... I never use them.



Cheers,

Michel Verheughe

Kitfox 3 - Jabiru 2200

Norway



--------

Kitfox 3 - Jabiru 2200

_________________
Keep the dirty side down/Blue skies. Bob

mikeperkins

Joined: 22 May 2007
Posts: 123

Posted: Mon Sep 26, 2011 4:34 am Post subject: Re: Feather with ailerons

Spoilers would certainly be an interesting addition to a Kitfox. My experience with float is that the approach is flown too fast, and stall times 1.3 makes landings pretty float-free in my Model I. It's almost an unnaturally-low speed, so my Kitfox friends and I don't always use Vso x 1.3. And we get float as a result, and just accept it. 



However, floatless landings are easily possible by flying the approach at Vso x 1.3. But since stall speed changes with weight (quite a lot in a Kitfox), the approach speed also changes with weight. So it's good to know what is Vso for a variety of weights and then to know what your is your present landing weight, and then look up your target approach speed. 



One method is to fly at whatever speed you wish on approach (say Vso x 1.7) and just begin to increase angle of attack at a higher altitude, the idea being to reach the ground just as Vso is reached. When approaching at Vso x 1.7, I'll start increasing pitch at perhaps 100 feet and just keep increasing pitch until touchdown. This means aiming short of the landing point, which is fine as long as there are no obstructions. Also, slips are a great way to control descent rate and approach angle. 



All this can be done with the three flight controls that are already there. Just takes practice. 



Mike Perkins

Kitfox Model I (1994)

532 w/ B gearbox

Havana, IL

av8rps

Joined: 05 Jan 2008
Posts: 33
Location: Central Wisconsin

Posted: Tue Sep 27, 2011 3:49 pm Post subject: Re: Feather with ailerons

As I recall, the Kitfox Light Squared model (or whatever they called that tri gear M4) used the flaperons as spoilers.  I believe the info to set it up is either in that version of the build manual, or is a service bulletin.  I know I read it somewhere as I tried it on my Model IV after reading about it.  And I found that it did work, and actually pretty well.  It was nice to descend like the airliners with spoilers do - relatively flat and level on approach.  But my Kitfox did feel less stable, almost as if I was flying with an extreme rearward center of gravity. I'm guessing the flaperon going up as a spoiler may cause the center of lift on the wing to shift?      



If it weren't for the fact that I have my Kitfox set to provide all the down travel I can get, I would have left mine set up to act as a spoiler for when I want to use that feature.  But I can't have both with the existing control setup.  And since the Kitfox slips so well, I just use slips.  Plus, slips are just so much fun!

_________________
Model IV-1200 912ul Amphib
Avid Flyer Sn#1 and Sn#26
Highlander 912s taildragger
Lake Amphibian
Central Wisconsin
paul676@tds.net

7suds(at)Chartermi.net
Guest

Posted: Wed Sep 28, 2011 3:37 pm Post subject: Feather with ailerons

Guys,

I agree with the slips, they are a great way to give up altitude quickly

without gaining allot of speed, I personally preferred the forward slip when

making approaches in the Kitfox 4, not sure what slips will be like in the 5

when I get it flying.

Lloyd C

Northern Mi

Mod 5 912ul IVO IFA  



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