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Can we borrow your tank?

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goff

Joined: 18 Jan 2007
Posts: 71

Posted: Fri Sep 23, 2011 12:56 am Post subject: Can we borrow your tank?

We've removed the cracked/leaking tank from G-CHOX, but the factory are out of stock of new tanks.



Does anyone in the South of England have a tank that they haven't installed yet, that we could have now and then replace with the new one from the factory when it arrives. Probably in 2-3 weeks.



Goff Moore, Peter Field, Ian Swankie

G-CHOX

flyingphil2

Joined: 04 Dec 2009
Posts: 117

Posted: Fri Sep 23, 2011 3:11 am Post subject: Re: Can we borrow your tank?

Hi,

Does anyone know when the tank design or manufacturing process was last changed by Europa?

Phil



(I have a tank by the way).

scouttwo(at)sbcglobal.net
Guest

Posted: Fri Sep 23, 2011 1:10 pm Post subject: Can we borrow your tank?

Hello gentlemen.



I still have xs A145 with gas tank.



I always thought I would perforate with 2 inch (51mm) holes well staggered 

about all sides.



Then glass inside and out, using the shape and reinforcing areas of need.



What resins might be best for such an upgrade?



Nic

grahamsingleton(at)btinte
Guest

Posted: Fri Sep 23, 2011 2:37 pm Post subject: Can we borrow your tank?

I'd say either polyester or vinyl ester. The latter is stronger than polyester, they used it for the Glasair, including the wing tanks.

Certainly OK with Avgas but I don't know about modern Mogas, alcohol is nasty stuff just for starters.

Graham

From: Nic <scouttwo(at)sbcglobal.net>

To: europa-list(at)matronics.com

Sent: Friday, 23 September, 2011 22:06:52

Subject: Re: Can we borrow your  tank?

--> Europa-List message posted by: "Nic" <scouttwo(at)sbcglobal.net (scouttwo(at)sbcglobal.net)>

Hello gentlemen.

I still have xs A145 with gas tank.

I always thought I would perforate with 2 inch (51mm) holes well staggered about all sides.

Then glass inside and out, using the shape and reinforcing areas of need.

What resins matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List" ="http://forums.matronics.com" target="_blank">http://forums.matronics.                    &nbsptronics.com/contribution" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contri================

 [quote][b]

fklein(at)orcasonline.com
Guest

Posted: Fri Sep 23, 2011 3:31 pm Post subject: Can we borrow your tank?

On Sep 23, 2011, at 2:06 PM, Nic wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   I still have xs A145 with gas tank.



 I always thought I would perforate with 2 inch (51mm) holes well  

 staggered about all sides.



 Then glass inside and out, using the shape and reinforcing areas of  

 need.



 What resins might be best for such an upgrade?


	


I'm intrigued w/ this concept, but am leery of potential problems  

regarding differing coefficients of expansion of dissimilar  

materials...Would this be an issue?



Always open to learning something new,



Fred

scouttwo(at)sbcglobal.net
Guest

Posted: Fri Sep 23, 2011 8:21 pm Post subject: Can we borrow your tank?

Fred,



I have read the stories of failing fuel tanks while landing in trees.



While a challenging feat to be sure, the tank shouid still not fail.



Aluminum would suffice but I already have one sized to fit.



I always figured the inner layer bonds with the outer layer throught the 

holes.



This should encase the plastic which now would merely provide the shape.



I think I would also make a removeable lid panel to mount all tank access 

through.



I have several motorcycle fuel pumps for 50 psi output for my CBR engine.



Nic

budyerly(at)msn.com
Guest

Posted: Sun Sep 25, 2011 7:48 am Post subject: Can we borrow your tank?

<?xml:namespace prefix="v" /><?xml:namespace prefix="o" /><![endif]-->  To all fuel tank concerns

 Europa has 25 tanks on order, however, the mold was damaged / discarded by  the manufacturer.  The new tank, made by Roger and John that I have from  2009, holds a bit more fuel (I have 20 gallons useable in my trigear filled to  the brim) and has reinforcements in addition to the normal support tabs.  I  am not privy to the new tank manufacturers mold to see that it is exactly the  same.  Karen expects delivery in a couple weeks, but it will have to  undergo QC first.  I am watching and waiting for a tank also for a new  customer.

  

 For those attempting to build a fiberglass composite tank using the old  tank as a mold, I believe the molding in place to be more time consuming than  just pulling the old tank and replacing it with the new tank and properly  supporting it.  

  

 Fiberglass tanks, as pointed out by Graham, have problems with auto  fuel.  

 No fiberglass tank (epoxy, vinylester, or polyester) holds up with Auto  Fuel with Ethanol.  The marine industry coats the inside of fiberglass  tanks with specialized coatings to protect the fiberglass from auto fuel  additives and ethanol.  It appears AV Gas is safe with all fiberglass  tanks.  However, the AV Gas formula is under review by the FAA for changes,  so no guarantees.

  

 Repairs to the current tank is difficult.  Epoxy and glass stick very  well to the PTFE tank material.  Jeff Roberts has successfully repaired his  tank, but it depends where your crack is.  I have repaired the top of the  tank with glass and pro seal.  Note, that proseal softens with time  when exposed to ethanol, but has not failed so far.  The problem with  glass repairs to the tank, in my opinion, is that the bond has less peel  strength than ideal and under flexing and pressure will eventually fail.

  

 I believe, and have put my money where my mouth is, that the solution to  the tank cracking is the support structure used for the tank.

 For those of you who haven't seen my previous posts, I have attached one of  my drawings to show what I mean.  The front of the tank is totally  unsupported from the area above the spars (the ledge) to the bottom rear of the  tank.  Tank flexing of the older and thinner tank will force the tank  to eventually crack at the areas that are glassed hard and not allowed to  move.  Whether the tank gets brittle with age, from the fiberglass  interface, gets brittle with being left empty during long repairs, or what, I  really don't care, as all poly tanks will flex, and going from empty to full  will cause a flex of a tank and eventually, if forced back and forth, will  fail.

  

 Metal cracks also unless properly supported, has condensation problems ,  and it is expensive for odd shaped tanks to build, fiberglass has its fuel  compatibility problems, molding issues, etc., and PTFE or poly tanks have  their long term problems unless properly supported.  

  

 What has my company done?

 Defined how to support the tank.  We do not glass the tank directly to  the cockpit module structure per the instruction manual.  We put release  plastic between the required build manual supports and tank to prevent the  required supports from sticking permanently and creating a stress  riser.  We use glass tabs to secure it at the top, for fore/aft and side to  side movement.  Polyurethane foam is used to secure the tank from shifting,  and we carefully build lower tank supports.  (On a new build it means  fitting the module a couple more times to fit an expand cell pad laid along the  bottom of the tank perimeter covered with 2 mil plastic to define where the tank  sits and requires support.  The expand cell is then sanded to final shape  and glassed over making a very good support.)  The tank also sits on a cork  support for padding (kind of overkill) to prevent wear, but plastic works  OK also.  This means the tank is supported vertically and horizontally by  the saddle, the bottom, the front ledge, and foam wedged with urethane foam to  prevent movement fore, aft , up , or down.  All weight is carried by a  combination of the floor and the bulkheads.

  

 Existing tanks have added non expanding polyurethane foam  sprayed under the tank to support the bottom, but this is not ideal as I prefer  a longeron and ribs be glassed to the floor for the tunnel area and across  the front of the tank for vertical support.  This adds support for  the tank bottom, back and sides as opposed to the previous supports  which hung the tank solely off the bulkheads...

  

 Other bandaids:

 We have a plastic welder and have tried it recently on PTFE tanks used in  commercial lawn equipment (which are poorly supported fuel tanks and prone to  cracking with age) and have had success so far.  Not an exact science but  we have also done an auto radiator, and a auto overflow coolant tank to see what  the long term effects are.  We are concerned that the heat stress near the  weld may be brittle and fail, so time will tell.  Pulling the tank and  welding is not cost effective as one may as well drop in another tank.

  

 In the mean time, I am waiting for a new tank to drop in as that is the  easiest of all solutions, as the tank supports can be put in quite easily  through the hole in the top of the module.  This I believe will solve  the problems of stress risers and tank failures.  Anyone can replace a tank  in less than a week.

  

 Regards,

 Bud 

  

  

 [quote]   ---

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fklein(at)orcasonline.com
Guest

Posted: Sun Sep 25, 2011 11:31 am Post subject: Can we borrow your tank?

On Sep 25, 2011, at 8:45 AM, Bud Yerly wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  To all fuel tank concerns... 	




	Bud...

Thank you for your comprehensive review of fuel tank concerns, your clear description of "band aids", and assurances that tank-replacement is a viable long-term solution...I believe that, once again, you've demonstrated real leadership for the Europa community and disseminated critically important information to all.

I confess to have had reservations about what's said in the manual about glassing-in the tank and fears of creating stress concentrations which could lead to failures...but...I merely proved the point that the only stupid questions are those which are not asked.

With appreciation,

Fred



 [quote][b]

scouttwo(at)sbcglobal.net
Guest

Posted: Sun Sep 25, 2011 11:57 am Post subject: Can we borrow your tank?

Bud,



Good show.



The reinforcing around the tank looks proper and I am certain it will 

protect the tank.



I just discovered a British company that offers "Phenol Novolac Epoxy Gas 

Tank Sealer".



This might be the fix from the ethanol plight.



I am still several lifetimes away from installation so I will wait and see.



Nic  a145xs

stephen vestuti

Joined: 05 Jul 2011
Posts: 62
Location: Wales, UK

Posted: Sun Sep 25, 2011 12:01 pm Post subject: Re: Can we borrow your tank?

Excellent report Bud and thanks for passing the information on,



Steve,

wdaniell(at)etb.net.co
Guest

Posted: Mon Sep 26, 2011 8:06 am Post subject: Can we borrow your tank?

Bud

 

Can you give an overview of the tank replacement surgery.  

 

My tank has been sitting around empty during my (glacial-paced) build and has been glassed in per the manual since 2008 and not per your post. 

 

 I am wondering whether it would be wise to bite the bullet and change the tank before putting the top on.

 

What do you suggest? 

 

Yours

 

Will

 

From: owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bud Yerly

Sent: 25 September, 2011 10:45

To: europa-list(at)matronics.com

Subject: Re: Can we borrow your tank?

 

To all fuel tank concerns



Europa has 25 tanks on order, however, the mold was damaged / discarded by the manufacturer.  The new tank, made by Roger and John that I have from 2009, holds a bit more fuel (I have 20 gallons useable in my trigear filled to the brim) and has reinforcements in addition to the normal support tabs.  I am not privy to the new tank manufacturers mold to see that it is exactly the same.  Karen expects delivery in a couple weeks, but it will have to undergo QC first.  I am watching and waiting for a tank also for a new customer.



 



For those attempting to build a fiberglass composite tank using the old tank as a mold, I believe the molding in place to be more time consuming than just pulling the old tank and replacing it with the new tank and properly supporting it.  



 



Fiberglass tanks, as pointed out by Graham, have problems with auto fuel.  



No fiberglass tank (epoxy, vinylester, or polyester) holds up with Auto Fuel with Ethanol.  The marine industry coats the inside of fiberglass tanks with specialized coatings to protect the fiberglass from auto fuel additives and ethanol.  It appears AV Gas is safe with all fiberglass tanks.  However, the AV Gas formula is under review by the FAA for changes, so no guarantees.



 



Repairs to the current tank is difficult.  Epoxy and glass stick very well to the PTFE tank material.  Jeff Roberts has successfully repaired his tank, but it depends where your crack is.  I have repaired the top of the tank with glass and pro seal.  Note, that proseal softens with time when exposed to ethanol, but has not failed so far.  The problem with glass repairs to the tank, in my opinion, is that the bond has less peel strength than ideal and under flexing and pressure will eventually fail.



 



I believe, and have put my money where my mouth is, that the solution to the tank cracking is the support structure used for the tank.



For those of you who haven't seen my previous posts, I have attached one of my drawings to show what I mean.  The front of the tank is totally unsupported from the area above the spars (the ledge) to the bottom rear of the tank.  Tank flexing of the older and thinner tank will force the tank to eventually crack at the areas that are glassed hard and not allowed to move.  Whether the tank gets brittle with age, from the fiberglass interface, gets brittle with being left empty during long repairs, or what, I really don't care, as all poly tanks will flex, and going from empty to full will cause a flex of a tank and eventually, if forced back and forth, will fail.



 



Metal cracks also unless properly supported, has condensation problems , and it is expensive for odd shaped tanks to build, fiberglass has its fuel compatibility problems, molding issues, etc., and PTFE or poly tanks have their long term problems unless properly supported.  



 



What has my company done?



Defined how to support the tank.  We do not glass the tank directly to the cockpit module structure per the instruction manual.  We put release plastic between the required build manual supports and tank to prevent the required supports from sticking permanently and creating a stress riser.  We use glass tabs to secure it at the top, for fore/aft and side to side movement.  Polyurethane foam is used to secure the tank from shifting, and we carefully build lower tank supports.  (On a new build it means fitting the module a couple more times to fit an expand cell pad laid along the bottom of the tank perimeter covered with 2 mil plastic to define where the tank sits and requires support.  The expand cell is then sanded to final shape and glassed over making a very good support.)  The tank also sits on a cork support for padding (kind of overkill) to prevent wear, but plastic works OK also.  This means the tank is supported vertically and horizontally by the saddle, the bottom, the front ledge, and foam wedged with urethane foam to prevent movement fore, aft , up , or down.  All weight is carried by a combination of the floor and the bulkheads.



 



Existing tanks have added non expanding polyurethane foam sprayed under the tank to support the bottom, but this is not ideal as I prefer a longeron and ribs be glassed to the floor for the tunnel area and across the front of the tank for vertical support.  This adds support for the tank bottom, back and sides as opposed to the previous supports which hung the tank solely off the bulkheads...



 



Other bandaids:



We have a plastic welder and have tried it recently on PTFE tanks used in commercial lawn equipment (which are poorly supported fuel tanks and prone to cracking with age) and have had success so far.  Not an exact science but we have also done an auto radiator, and a auto overflow coolant tank to see what the long term effects are.  We are concerned that the heat stress near the weld may be brittle and fail, so time will tell.  Pulling the tank and welding is not cost effective as one may as well drop in another tank.



 



In the mean time, I am waiting for a new tank to drop in as that is the easiest of all solutions, as the tank supports can be put in quite easily through the hole in the top of the module.  This I believe will solve the problems of stress risers and tank failures.  Anyone can replace a tank in less than a week.



 



Regards,



Bud 



 



 

  [quote][b]

steven.pitt2(at)ntlworld.
Guest

Posted: Mon Sep 26, 2011 10:33 pm Post subject: Can we borrow your tank?

Will,

 Bud's article will be in this months Europa Flyer  due to be posted this week.

 Steve Pitt

 [quote]   ---

budyerly(at)msn.com
Guest

Posted: Wed Oct 05, 2011 11:45 am Post subject: Can we borrow your tank?

<?xml:namespace prefix="v" /><?xml:namespace prefix="o" /><![endif]-->  Will,

 Sorry it has taken too long.  Much to do and too little time.  I  have had an email of mine cut and pasted by the editor into the Europa  flier.  This is a hot issue and I have been looking for my more  detailed instructions but can't find it right now since my house flooded.   I have attached two adobe files with some incomplete info on removal  and installation (read that as shorter than my normal tome).

  

 Look at the attached pdf files for a quick and dirty  explanation.  

 Tools you'll most probably like to have.

 A fine tooth hand saw,

 Dremel type rotary tool and a very thin diamond blade.

 Hack saw (metal cutting saw) blades for hand use.

 Hole saw of 2 inches diameter or so.

 Fein saw (an electric or air saw with a long thin blade)

 patience, precision and about 24 hours of pure enjoyment.

  

 Regards

 Bud

  

  

 [quote]   ---

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wdaniell(at)etb.net.co
Guest

Posted: Wed Oct 05, 2011 2:00 pm Post subject: Can we borrow your tank?

Bud 

Thanks…always love the asides in your mails.

Will

PS sorry to hear flooded – it seems to have been a bad 6 months form the elements for you.

 

From: owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bud Yerly

Sent: 05 October, 2011 14:40

To: europa-list(at)matronics.com

Subject: Re: Can we borrow your tank?

 

Will,



Sorry it has taken too long.  Much to do and too little time.  I have had an email of mine cut and pasted by the editor into the Europa flier.  This is a hot issue and I have been looking for my more detailed instructions but can't find it right now since my house flooded.  I have attached two adobe files with some incomplete info on removal and installation (read that as shorter than my normal tome).



 



Look at the attached pdf files for a quick and dirty explanation.  



Tools you'll most probably like to have.



A fine tooth hand saw,



Dremel type rotary tool and a very thin diamond blade.



Hack saw (metal cutting saw) blades for hand use.



Hole saw of 2 inches diameter or so.



Fein saw (an electric or air saw with a long thin blade)



patience, precision and about 24 hours of pure enjoyment.



 



Regards



Bud



 



 

[quote]

---

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